Originally posted by Fadedbomb

I'm tired of constantly, and utterly, DESTROYING PayToWin games. In the billions of threads that are started on these forums, mainly by the column writers!

 

 

So I'll simply say this:

-PayToWin is only for Western MMOs that tried to copy WoW too much and are dieing, so they went PayToWin to keep themselves from FAILING. Being crap is no where NEAR as bad as being a FAILURE.

 

-PayToWin revitalizes a game for a specific reason: It makes MORE money than only 5000 subscribers. If it were FREEToPlay, it would NOT make MORE money. This, by default, means it's WORSE than $15/month.

 

-$15/month PayToPlay models are the best, because EVERYONE pays the $15 and EVERYONE is on a level playing field. Other players CANNOT "legally" pay for Gold to advance faster than others with RealWorld money, instead of EARNING it like EVERYONE else who are paying the standard flat $15/month. It's FAIR, and creates a LEVEL playing field. Unlike PayToWin.

 

PayToWin will NEVER be the new "Standard". It's already going out of style as it is, and the general Western Gamer is waking up. Planetside2 announced their "Free" model, but it's NOT actually a PayToWin model. Planetside2's "Free" model is NOTHING more than a glorified unlimited free trial with a CAP on your rank (I think it's going to be 5?). This means Planetside 2 will ALWAYS have "grunts" to constantly wage War on Planetside 2, but the ONLY way to progress past their extended "Free" trial is to BUY their $15/month FLAT rate subscription model. 

 

Look @ Eve, they tried to add in a PayToWin model, and more than 80% of the subscriber base THREATENED CCP with instant /rageQuit. I think that pretty much outlines how the general gamer feels. Future games WILL learn or they will NOT be supported.

 

-Faded

Omg finally i found someone who thinks like me :D

I think the ones who damage the economy in game to force the players to buy game currency with real money is the publisher company. Also most of the free 2 play games from asia are adorable, nice and fun but in their territory, when we have those games translated to english and we play them... is a full different story many content is removed, free content and we have to wait 6+ months for it to get released. They are soooooooooooo cheap in there and the ammount of items you buy is more! but when it gets here we get raped with the prices.

Also yeah this f2p games we do spend more than 15$ a month and they are corrosive, highly toxic and radioactive xD

Im waiting for Guild Wars 2, im hoping each race wont be a diferent expansion me and my friends (our guild) are waiting for this game and some of us want to be diferent races... will see if this company is gonna play smart asses that every race will be a different expansion.

Their priority should be us,

1. Make the game enjoyable for the player

2. Make the game affordable for the player

3. Make the player feel good, feel great (not feel stupid or scammed or that they are taking advantage of you)

4. Safe athmosphere for the community.

5.They should not put their dirty hands into the economy unless to make it better, since they have the power.

- I think that if they have the power to make us happy why not? that would lead us to have the happy supporting feeling and charge some dollars, maybe more than now that because im sad about this companies i charge 0.

(The publisher mind)

Wow they are selling gold and gaining money!!! maybe more than us! lets ban them and us be the gold sellers and get that money for us. >.>

Well if you have played mmorpgs for many years and you enjoy a certain type of game, you will have developed the ability to see shit comming from a long range. That beeing first the players as those are the ones you have to deal with (after all you should play single player games if you are not playing to interact with the players). A games features and business model have a direct effect on the players it attracts, and you can deny it all you want.

If you do not play games for the reasons older (mostly) gamers do, then this argument will be lost on you since you play games for other reasons and have completely different expectations.

Not to mention the obvious problem with fair competition in a game where you are not on equal terms with those who bought their way to success.

Originally posted by DerWotan

Some responses are the best example, why I despise the p2w crowd with passion. If people are on the mindset that buying advantage for $ is no big deal, then they clearly are in the wrong genre, thats it.

 

You keep calling anyone who likes FTP as a P2W crowd. Are you really that ignorant? Or just so blinded by your sub fee, that you cannot accept that FTP does not equal P2W. Get over it. Get educated. Ignorant people with closed minds are what most normal people despise, yet here you are on a blind crusade about something that has no personal effect on you. Funny stuff

Again FTP is not equal to P2W. Argue all day if you want. You are just making a fool of yourself.

Also, the fact that anyone can think paying real money for a sub to a GAME, is any different than paying real money (in another way) for a game, is truly confused. Either way, you pay.

Also, the argument could be made that subbing to a game, instead of using the FTP (piece-meal pay) method, actually gives you more advantages that FTP. So, just to turn it around on you, subbing is also P2W ( I don't personally believe this, just smashing poor arguments).

Pay to WIN games are the reason i left mmorpgs for good , and so did my entire family and about 7 of my friends... 

Maybe there are free to play games out there that arent pay to win but its not really the point... the point is the people who are attracted by the big "FREE" sign are annoying , immature , and crude to say the least... 

the days of adventure and wonder are long gone , now we all know what to expect when the next treadmill comes out... 

its the same thing over and over and over and over and over again no innovation just more ways to suck money from consumers 

All stick to games that have passion injected in them still

LOTRO community went downhill after it went f2p. So did the quality, size and frequency of the content updates. 

$15/month is nothing. I would pay $30/month if it meant being able to play my favourite MMO with like-minded players and quality content updates (even if they werent regular). Hopefully some game developers out there realize that theres a niche market out there which is currently not being harvested by any of the AAA titles (anymore). 

For me the strength of the community can make or break the best game with all the best features and all the checkboxes checked.

Originally posted by Golelorn

The problem with free players is they normally tend to be kids. Kids have a different objective when it comes to playing games. They are just looking to whack stuff, cast spells, and do amazing things they can't do in real life. They are not looking to be the best, they don't care if they fail missions, quest, etc. Any game is awesome as a kid, because it sure beats going to school. 

So, really, I don't think they are "toxic" or retarded, although in the past I did. I think they are just kids. And at a certain age players stop being awed by cool spells, dying orcs and all the other distractions, and are actually more concerned with accomplishments.

There are two different groups that are conflicting with each other; kids and gamers. When those two mix you have people getting frustrated and annoyed.

 

100% fully agreed. Those kids also haven't fully grown a pair yet, and yet to reach emotional and mental maturity.

And then, there are people in the game who are total idiots in real life that use the f2p game as a matchmaking service or as an alternative web service to adultfriendfinder.com.

Assuming all other things equal, the f2p model is definitely effective in bringing in players by large numbers, which means more revenue, but chances are, is that it also means more players who are full of shit (just like this video) could freely play the game as they wish and invest their time in it.

Originally posted by Zenjinx

Originally posted by DerWotan

.......

You keep calling anyone who likes FTP as a P2W crowd. Are you really that ignorant? Or just so blinded by your sub fee, that you cannot accept that FTP does not equal P2W. Get over it. Get educated. Ignorant people with closed minds are what most normal people despise, yet here you are on a blind crusade about something that has no personal effect on you. Funny stuff

Again FTP is not equal to P2W. Argue all day if you want. You are just making a fool of yourself.

Also, the fact that anyone can think paying real money for a sub to a GAME, is any different than paying real money (in another way) for a game, is truly confused. Either way, you pay.

Also, the argument could be made that subbing to a game, instead of using the FTP (piece-meal pay) method, actually gives you more advantages that FTP. So, just to turn it around on you, subbing is also P2W ( I don't personally believe this, just smashing poor arguments).

I don't need to argue all day I've seen the $tores including the things they offer.

Yes either way you pay difference is, in p2p you aren't getting annoyed with $tore buttons (immersion killer #1), or overpowered p2w stuff such as xp/stat scrolls, gear!, mounts aso.

In the end these are two different worlds for a different audience, so I hate how greedy companies trying to mix them. Thats why I've mentioned Lotro and AoC.

I feel like Guild Wars did it right.  It required no sub but you still had to buy the game plus additional content.  But it never required the additional content and never gave you any XP or healing boosts or anything that changed the game play other than a few unique skins and extra character slots or storage space. 

The current crop of F2P games (not buy to play ala Guild Wars) aren't really out to make good successful games, they're just trying to make money by tricking people into thinking that they aren't paying to play the game.  Those kind of games are completely toxic to the MMO industry and even if you can argue that they have a role in the future of MMOs, arguing that they are the future of well-made MMOs is silly.  They just don't make enough money to compete with a big-budget MMO. 

STO could work as a free to play game.  Like Guild Wars, none of the cash content gives you an edge.  I'd still ike to see them require people to buy the game after a trial period though.  That adds more capitol and allows them to keep making content.

Originally posted by zonzai

I feel like Guild Wars did it right.  It required no sub but you still had to buy the game plus additional content.  But it never required the additional content and never gave you any XP or healing boosts or anything that changed the game play other than a few unique skins and extra character slots or storage space. 

The current crop of F2P games (not buy to play ala Guild Wars) aren't really out to make good successful games, they're just trying to make money by tricking people into thinking that they aren't paying to play the game.  Those kind of games are completely toxic to the MMO industry and even if you can argue that they have a role in the future of MMOs, arguing that they are the future of well-made MMOs is silly.  They just don't make enough money to compete with a big-budget MMO. 

STO could work as a free to play game.  Like Guild Wars, none of the cash content gives you an edge.  I'd still ike to see them require people to buy the game after a trial period though.  That adds more capitol and allows them to keep making content.

Yes GW1, call it F2P or B2P did it right.

I can't share the enthusiasm. GW had a HORRIBLE community, at least here on German servers, all immature trash & porn talk all the time. LOTRO considerably dropped in community quality with F2P. I have not seen a single Asia F2P game that was not bad and had mostly no community at all.

So no... while not all Free Players may be toxic, the overall attitude is just proven to be not good. For me that is a clear result of experience.

He lost all merit when he said that BZ (Brazillian) players aren't the absolute SCUM of mmorpg's and games in general...

Originally posted by divmax

LOTRO community went downhill after it went f2p. So did the quality, size and frequency of the content updates. 

$15/month is nothing. I would pay $30/month if it meant being able to play my favourite MMO with like-minded players and quality content updates (even if they werent regular). Hopefully some game developers out there realize that theres a niche market out there which is currently not being harvested by any of the AAA titles (anymore). 

For me the strength of the community can make or break the best game with all the best features and all the checkboxes checked.

This.

I can pay 25 $ or even 30 $ for a polished AAA game , that is challenging ,offer many interesting ways to play (Pve, pvp , as a crafter , with player made economy and lot of freedom )  , provides quality updates and have similar minded people + does NOT have ANY cash shop.

Free to play attracts the worst scum of the internet.. from pedophiles to immature brats and communities are generally utter garbage.

Originally posted by Cecropia

Originally posted by stayontarget

In order to get the Western MMO gamers to begin to accept the free-to-play model, developers and publishers are slowly weaning them off of subscriptions by offering hybrid free-to-play/subscription models for new and existing games alike, beginning with Turbine’s Dungeons & Dragons Online: Eberron Unlimited and more recently with City of Heroes: Freedom.

Really!!  I thought it was because the games were so bad they had to go F2P or else fold up shop.

That was my observation as well. Funny part is we only ever hear about how successful they are just after they make "the last stop before the graveyard" switch.

Then we hear how they are doing so well with nothing to back it up but crickets.

 

there would be less crickets and tons more players in vanguard if it was "f2p" also. im sure it will happen with dcuo as well soon.

A lot of people in this thread seem to have NFI what constitutes Pay 2 Win Vs other cash shop revenue streams like pay for convenience.

The subscription model for MMO's is almost dead, I hope more games in future go with buy 2 play (mostly so then they can ban turds more permenantly) + non pay 2 win cash shop models.

IF GW2 does it right I expect theirs will be the model that others follow in future.

yet another show of bigotry by the community. Apparently they've all forgotten that these idiots the scum of the interweb were all VERY much there and annoying in sub only games like World of Warcraft, so making a game free isn't going to change suddenly in ANY way the quality of the people online, There are just as many a$$hats that play subs as there are on F2P titles the only difference is they pay for it. Years of playing WoW has tought me that. I played on a RP server too which was supposed to have at least tiny bit more cranial people there, HA there were the same idiots on those servers as any other.

Originally posted by Precusor

Free to play attracts the worst scum of the internet.. from pedophiles to immature brats and communities are generally utter garbage.

This is total FACT!

P2P games that go F2P (AKA P2W) do so because the game is circling the drain and they had a meeting with the bean counters from the publishing company and were told to squeeze some blood out of the stone or be switched off. Games don't go RMT or freemium because they're just so ****ing good they do so because of greedy business people. We have P2W for the same reason that children are spending their lives in soccer ball factories in Pakistan it's all about higher profits.

However for your information the worst community I've ever experienced was AoC for the first couple of days after launch, the amount of foul and disgusting chat with constant spamming of "WoW was the first MMO" was just too much.

Originally posted by Agricola1

Originally posted by Precusor

Free to play attracts the worst scum of the internet.. from pedophiles to immature brats and communities are generally utter garbage.

This is total FACT!

P2P games that go F2P (AKA P2W) do so because the game is circling the drain and they had a meeting with the bean counters from the publishing company and were told to squeeze some blood out of the stone or be switched off. Games don't go RMT or freemium because they're just so ****ing good they do so because of greedy business people. We have P2W for the same reason that children are spending their lives in soccer ball factories in Pakistan it's all about higher profits.

I don't think half the posters here really know the difference between fact and opinion. Either that or they do know the difference and they simply choose the convenience of blind acceptance when reading something they personally want to brlieve to be true.

Originally posted by zellmer

He lost all merit when he said that BZ (Brazillian) players aren't the absolute SCUM of mmorpg's and games in general...

 

OMg so racist....

Then again Brazilians absolutely raped and killed Tibia. 

My favorite thing is when idiots see an additon of an item shop and instantly scream OMG pay to win!.. You bring up Age of Conan and Lord of the Rings Online.. Two games that i have played extensively during their pay to play versions and since they've added item shops and i think its hilarious that you claim they are "pay to win" games. I dont see how they are pay to win when the items you can buy that arent just cosmetic upgrades suck ass compared to what you actually get doing instances.

Take the Age of Conan Superior Armor set's every ten levels.. Sure people see them in the item shop but honestly how much better are their stats from the stuff you get from bosses and rep? Most of Conans item shop users could care less about some blue armor set. They are there buying the mounts/pets/expansions. Lord  the Rings i havent looked at much but im willing to guess the gear you buy in it sucks ass too compared to the stuff you get doing epic  story line quest's. EQ2 is another game that people complained about. All EQ2 shop had that was worth even looking at to me was the "cosmetic armor" which does nothing to or for the player aside from making him not have to worry about some new ugly ass helm he picked up.

All of you people callinhg Age of Conan and Lotr-O's item shop pay to win need to do me a favor...

Go to Gamesfirst and create yourself an account.

Download All Points Bulletin. When you see all the people using the $50-$60 perma- N-Tec's and other guns you can cry about the meaning of Pay to Win. So fars of all the games ive played since 99(yes im a newbie to mmos) the only true pay to win game i have played was APB and i uninstalled it and now im sceptical about how Fallen Earth will be once it goes F2P

That is pay to win. When you have people dropping $150-200 on maxed perma-weapons thats the definition of pay to win. Buy a potion they gives you and hp/xp boost is nothing compared to joining a game after it goes F2P and seeing people running around with maxed out weapons owning everyone they are placed against just because they spent a couple hundred dollars on superior upgraded weapons.