I think they are changing much like pop culture does. Ultima Online was the first true MMO, it was a sandbox open world type it had great play ability and the community was really good.

Then EQ came and started the WoW trend with classes levels instanced dungeons etc. WoW came and beat EQ and the others into the ground because it was easy to play and get into.

I like the sandbox type of game like Ultima Online and Eve Online, the idea of a themepark / guildwars type of game play I find dull and boring. I like the idea of being able to scam people out of ingame cash/items. Or if I kill them in a game I can loot their equipment and sell it.

The industry is starting to see a return to some of the old ways in that some MMO's that are being released or coming out are letting you customize your character more, no levels needed within the game system and harsh penalties for death.

You wish to see a huge change in the way MMO's are made look towards The Secret World, Tera, and CCP's new mmo World of Darkness. Yes they have elements of other MMO's in them but the game play and mechanics are very different.

But most of the younger players have ADHD and find these games to be tedious.

Originally posted by Olgark

But most of the younger players have ADHD and find these games to be tedious.

It's not just the younger generation. At nearly 35 i don't consider myself young and nowadays i find it hard to stick with any one MMO, to be honest i find it hard to get into any of them no mater how complex. A few years ago i was still playing games that i'd already played for years and was enjoying myself, now that level of commitment and enjoyment is completely gone. I wouldn't attribute it to age but rather to everything being the same old same old, already been there done that type cliches.

When MMO's were new it was different and the worlds and characters created many literal jaw dropping moments, but once you've been the same games in new skins for so long they stop giving that amazed affect.

The formulae isn't likely to change be it sandbox or themepark as there really isnt a whole lot more that can be added to them, and the only way forward i can see is for technology to take the leap towards more interaction and visuals for immersion. Not a problem for the newer gamers but on a site like this a large amount of us have already been at it for numerous years across the various genres.

MMO's have changed.    People don't like change.   So they go back to the exact same systems and no advancement is made.

Everyones just too busy comparing everything to WoW and automatically assuming its going to fail if they don't have 1 million subscribers on opening day.   They're too blind and cynical to see a good thing right in front of them.

Until people understand that its okay to 'not' be a WoW clone,  and stop bitching and griping about subscriptions and charts and numbers...  nothing is ever going to change.

Originally posted by Kabaal

Originally posted by Olgark

But most of the younger players have ADHD and find these games to be tedious.

It's not just the younger generation. At nearly 35 i don't consider myself young and nowadays i find it hard to stick with any one MMO, to be honest i find it hard to get into any of them no mater how complex. A few years ago i was still playing games that i'd already played for years and was enjoying myself, now that level of commitment and enjoyment is completely gone. I wouldn't attribute it to age but rather to everything being the same old same old, already been there done that type cliches.

When MMO's were new it was different and the worlds and characters created many literal jaw dropping moments, but once you've been the same games in new skins for so long they stop giving that amazed affect.

The formulae isn't likely to change be it sandbox or themepark as there really isnt a whole lot more that can be added to them, and the only way forward i can see is for technology to take the leap towards more interaction and visuals for immersion. Not a problem for the newer gamers but on a site like this a large amount of us have already been at it for numerous years across the various genres.

This is a large part of why I no longer play as well (and near the same age). I was willing to put time in MMOs I found boring because I had RL friends playing as well and spending time with them (despite being states away) was far better content than any devs can produce. Now that most of them have quit playing entirely I've lost all the interesting "content" that I looked for in MMORPGs. I've tried replacing them in modern MMOs but the people are just different now (the ones that talk) ranging from those in-game knowitalls that'll mock you endlessly for having a single misspent talent point to the other side of players that just spout internet memes and go on at length about how drunk/high they are.

The provided content is same ol' same ol' and there's no quality control regarding the subscribers, so why bother?

Originally posted by pierth

Originally posted by Kabaal

Originally posted by Olgark

But most of the younger players have ADHD and find these games to be tedious.

It's not just the younger generation. At nearly 35 i don't consider myself young and nowadays i find it hard to stick with any one MMO, to be honest i find it hard to get into any of them no mater how complex. A few years ago i was still playing games that i'd already played for years and was enjoying myself, now that level of commitment and enjoyment is completely gone. I wouldn't attribute it to age but rather to everything being the same old same old, already been there done that type cliches.

When MMO's were new it was different and the worlds and characters created many literal jaw dropping moments, but once you've been the same games in new skins for so long they stop giving that amazed affect.

The formulae isn't likely to change be it sandbox or themepark as there really isnt a whole lot more that can be added to them, and the only way forward i can see is for technology to take the leap towards more interaction and visuals for immersion. Not a problem for the newer gamers but on a site like this a large amount of us have already been at it for numerous years across the various genres.

This is a large part of why I no longer play as well (and near the same age). I was willing to put time in MMOs I found boring because I had RL friends playing as well and spending time with them (despite being states away) was far better content than any devs can produce. Now that most of them have quit playing entirely I've lost all the interesting "content" that I looked for in MMORPGs. I've tried replacing them in modern MMOs but the people are just different now (the ones that talk) ranging from those in-game knowitalls that'll mock you endlessly for having a single misspent talent point to the other side of players that just spout internet memes and go on at length about how drunk/high they are.

 

The provided content is same ol' same ol' and there's no quality control regarding the subscribers, so why bother?

I lost a little bit my intrest same as you guys do im somewhat older then you guys, but it seems i still enjoy my solo RPG as i did years ago that have not changed much i wonder why?

I know how all of you feel and agree with alot of what you are all saying. Our genre is detiorating a lil. What I want to know is how to get it back on track.

Other than NOT BUYING new games, which wont happen, what can we do? How can we be heard?

Im only seeing MMO sites that give news and updates, rarely does the industry try to reach out to us, the gamers who buy their products.

Any thoughts?

Originally posted by Kabaal

 

It's not just the younger generation. At nearly 35 i don't consider myself young and nowadays i find it hard to stick with any one MMO, to be honest i find it hard to get into any of them no mater how complex. A few years ago i was still playing games that i'd already played for years and was enjoying myself, now that level of commitment and enjoyment is completely gone. I wouldn't attribute it to age but rather to everything being the same old same old, already been there done that type cliches.

When MMO's were new it was different and the worlds and characters created many literal jaw dropping moments, but once you've been the same games in new skins for so long they stop giving that amazed affect.

The formulae isn't likely to change be it sandbox or themepark as there really isnt a whole lot more that can be added to them, and the only way forward i can see is for technology to take the leap towards more interaction and visuals for immersion. Not a problem for the newer gamers but on a site like this a large amount of us have already been at it for numerous years across the various genres.

There's a buttload more different game mechanics which can be used other than Character Progression, Questing, and Raiding.

What we realy need is a "Holo-Deck-MMO" ...like in Startrek... 8)

Omg .. imagine sexy 3D VR Nightelve Umans !!!

Originally posted by GameDevJake

I know how all of you feel and agree with alot of what you are all saying. Our genre is detiorating a lil. What I want to know is how to get it back on track.

Other than NOT BUYING new games, which wont happen, what can we do? How can we be heard?

Im only seeing MMO sites that give news and updates, rarely does the industry try to reach out to us, the gamers who buy their products.

Any thoughts?

 

Contrary to popular belief, the genre's been changing non-stop for the past few years.

We have all kinds of MMOs.

Need for Speed: World? Age of Empire Online? Free Realms? A tale in the desert?

All different MMOs.

Just because you don't know them doesn't mean they do not exists.

Originally posted by jpnz

Originally posted by GameDevJake

I know how all of you feel and agree with alot of what you are all saying. Our genre is detiorating a lil. What I want to know is how to get it back on track.

Other than NOT BUYING new games, which wont happen, what can we do? How can we be heard?

Im only seeing MMO sites that give news and updates, rarely does the industry try to reach out to us, the gamers who buy their products.

Any thoughts?

 

Contrary to popular belief, the genre's been changing non-stop for the past few years.

We have all kinds of MMOs.

Need for Speed: World? Age of Empire Online? Free Realms? A tale in the desert?

All different MMOs.

Just because you don't know them doesn't mean they do not exists.

The problem is that your examples barely register on the radar because frankly they are bad.  If I were to say birds had diversified because they lost their wings, no one would applaud it when their gene pool was empty.  As for main stream improvements, we are still waiting for the next great Darwinian jump.

Originally posted by GameDevJake

I know how all of you feel and agree with alot of what you are all saying. Our genre is detiorating a lil. What I want to know is how to get it back on track.

Other than NOT BUYING new games, which wont happen, what can we do? How can we be heard?

Im only seeing MMO sites that give news and updates, rarely does the industry try to reach out to us, the gamers who buy their products.

Any thoughts?

 

Not buying new games does happen, for many of us

Originally posted by BigGayNorman

Originally posted by jpnz

Originally posted by GameDevJake

I know how all of you feel and agree with alot of what you are all saying. Our genre is detiorating a lil. What I want to know is how to get it back on track.

Other than NOT BUYING new games, which wont happen, what can we do? How can we be heard?

Im only seeing MMO sites that give news and updates, rarely does the industry try to reach out to us, the gamers who buy their products.

Any thoughts?

 

Contrary to popular belief, the genre's been changing non-stop for the past few years.

We have all kinds of MMOs.

Need for Speed: World? Age of Empire Online? Free Realms? A tale in the desert?

All different MMOs.

Just because you don't know them doesn't mean they do not exists.

The problem is that your examples barely register on the radar because frankly they are bad.  If I were to say birds had diversified because they lost their wings, no one would applaud it when their gene pool was empty.  As for main stream improvements, we are still waiting for the next great Darwinian jump.

Bad in what way?

Free Realms is actually a well designed game.

I see innovation and changes happening in the MMO scene. Whether they succeed or not is up to the market.

Working as intended.

Originally posted by jpnz

Originally posted by BigGayNorman

Originally posted by jpnz

Originally posted by GameDevJake

I know how all of you feel and agree with alot of what you are all saying. Our genre is detiorating a lil. What I want to know is how to get it back on track.

Other than NOT BUYING new games, which wont happen, what can we do? How can we be heard?

Im only seeing MMO sites that give news and updates, rarely does the industry try to reach out to us, the gamers who buy their products.

Any thoughts?

 

Contrary to popular belief, the genre's been changing non-stop for the past few years.

We have all kinds of MMOs.

Need for Speed: World? Age of Empire Online? Free Realms? A tale in the desert?

All different MMOs.

Just because you don't know them doesn't mean they do not exists.

The problem is that your examples barely register on the radar because frankly they are bad.  If I were to say birds had diversified because they lost their wings, no one would applaud it when their gene pool was empty.  As for main stream improvements, we are still waiting for the next great Darwinian jump.

Bad in what way?

Free Realms is actually a well designed game.

I see innovation and changes happening in the MMO scene. Whether they succeed or not is up to the market.

Working as intended.

Sorry, thought my generalisation was sufficient.  Please, and think about this before you answer because I will not accept Rift as an answer, name one significant change in game mechanics since 2004??? Please do.

Originally posted by BigGayNorman

Originally posted by jpnz

 

Bad in what way?

Free Realms is actually a well designed game.

I see innovation and changes happening in the MMO scene. Whether they succeed or not is up to the market.

Working as intended.

Sorry, thought my generalisation was sufficient.  Please, and think about this before you answer because I will not accept Rift as an answer, name one significant change in game mechanics since 2004??? Please do.

Phasing is one.

LFG tool is another.

EVE's Incursion type mechanic is another.

Shall I go on?

Originally posted by jpnz

Originally posted by BigGayNorman

Originally posted by jpnz

 

Bad in what way?

Free Realms is actually a well designed game.

I see innovation and changes happening in the MMO scene. Whether they succeed or not is up to the market.

Working as intended.

Sorry, thought my generalisation was sufficient.  Please, and think about this before you answer because I will not accept Rift as an answer, name one significant change in game mechanics since 2004??? Please do.

Phasing is one.

LFG tool is another.

EVE's Incursion type mechanic is another.

Shall I go on?

Yes, because you have mentioned nothing that fundamentally alters the genre, just tools to (in my opinion) make it less fun.

Edit: infact I have to go so far as to call you out as a moron, please only raise a point if you have a point to make, otherwise I am busy baking bread.

Originally posted by BigGayNorman

Originally posted by jpnz

Originally posted by BigGayNorman

Originally posted by jpnz

 

Bad in what way?

Free Realms is actually a well designed game.

I see innovation and changes happening in the MMO scene. Whether they succeed or not is up to the market.

Working as intended.

Sorry, thought my generalisation was sufficient.  Please, and think about this before you answer because I will not accept Rift as an answer, name one significant change in game mechanics since 2004??? Please do.

Phasing is one.

LFG tool is another.

EVE's Incursion type mechanic is another.

Shall I go on?

Yes, because you have mentioned nothing that fundamentally alters the genre, just tools to (in my opinion) make it less fun.

I'd say 'phasing' fundalmentally alters the traditional MMO.

You couldn't 'change the world' to a player without affecting the millions of others before. So phasing is a mechanic that can individualize the experience to players.

Since we are talking about MMOs and not just 'wow-clones', NFS: World is a different game all together. It really does alter the genre.

Same with Age of Empires: Online.

Taking the MMO and applying it to different genre other than RPG is something we are seeing more and more.

Originally posted by Whacko

There will not be a change in MMOs until the player evolves.

Many games over the years produced concepts that would have changed the landscape, but at the core of all MMO genres, we have to look at the player. Most players forgot the true meaning of MMO. 

It's all about community, and the sad thing is that the fabric that is the core of all MMOs is greatly tattered. Changes cannot happen until the player actually allows change to happen.

It's all about the newest coolest thing, right now nobody can argue that the mobile market is playing a role, but the console player is effecting the landscape as well, sometimes in a good way but in my opinion it's killing the MMO creativity. Everything has to be dumbed down to facilitate the specs of a console, so a pc gamer suffers because the market wants to combine the availablity of their games to the largest sector. and sad to say statistics show it's the damn console that has more players for big game titles.

This debate could go on and on, but bottomline it's all about allowing change to happen.

I agee with this. For me, it's always been about how an MMORPG made me feel. Not how it looks or what I can and can't do in the game, it's about feeling alive and with purpose instead of like a cartoon on a computer screen. I'm not saying those things are missing from my real life or that I don't enjoy action games, but I really do expect more from an MMORPG. And I believe, as Whacko stated, it comes down to the players and what they expect from each other. You guys talking about game mechanics and video technology are missing the bigger picture, in my opinion.

Originally posted by jpnz

Originally posted by BigGayNorman

Originally posted by jpnz

Originally posted by BigGayNorman

Originally posted by jpnz

 

Bad in what way?

Free Realms is actually a well designed game.

I see innovation and changes happening in the MMO scene. Whether they succeed or not is up to the market.

Working as intended.

Sorry, thought my generalisation was sufficient.  Please, and think about this before you answer because I will not accept Rift as an answer, name one significant change in game mechanics since 2004??? Please do.

Phasing is one.

LFG tool is another.

EVE's Incursion type mechanic is another.

Shall I go on?

Yes, because you have mentioned nothing that fundamentally alters the genre, just tools to (in my opinion) make it less fun.

I'd say 'phasing' fundalmentally alters the traditional MMO.

You couldn't 'change the world' to a player without affecting the millions of others before. So phasing is a mechanic that can individualize the experience to players.

 

Since we are talking about MMOs and not just 'wow-clones', NFS: World is a different game all together. It really does alter the genre.

Same with Age of Empires: Online.

Taking the MMO and applying it to different genre other than RPG is something we are seeing more and more.

Sorry, I missed this hence the delay. 

I gotta be honest, and I genuinely do not mean to be rude, but that response smacks of someone trying to justify a losing argument.  It simply does, can argue it until the sun goes down, comes up and goes down again, but that is what you are doing.

Quite frankly its up to the dev companies. They can make whatever they wish,but most of them seeing the succeess ofuhm certain mmorpgs in the past they are afraid to take a step and make something refreshing.

A certain percentage of responsibility falls to the players base as well. Not that it is entirely their faults cause some of them growed up with simplistic console rpg's they build thier ideas about what rpg is baed to their expiriences. Then the devs when they see rsearches and statistics results about ppl's tastes on rpg's they try to adopt their wishes and make..well these mmorpgs they make.

Where is the reponsibility from players side exactly? Well it may sound bit aggresive but every time a read a comment from random player that arcania gothic 4 for example is a good rpg my hair are going vertical. So yes a great number of player's base has a terrible taste about what a good rpg looks like. I repeat its not entire their fault iomply all rpg's they ever played was zelda or ff in playstation. Some years ago some great rpg's were made and were made for a reason. The reason wa simple.Ppl back them liked them so the devs kept making such games (with gameplay mostly in their minds and not graficks or super effects). Today ofc its different cause u see many players have grafix above all and then they check gameplay.

If u turn back the time u ll see that after some masterpieces rpg's like Drakkhen,eye of the beholder,black crypt,Fallout,diablo series,sacred,severance,the baldur's gate saga miracles and icewind dale, etc etc the masterpieces began to stop going out there.Somewhere around 1998-2000 where the consoles began to have massive sales .So yes i think the console market played its role negatively also.

Only surviving saga is TES with skyrim coming soon (thank god).

So yes i think devs are giving what most ppl want (wow clones) . Some teams may present something different but usuallly they are un expirienced programmers with small financial recources so u usually end with well u know Df Mo and other uhm  mmorpgs that are lacking quality. Ofc at least they tried and deserve a credit for that.

Originally posted by StealthSLI

I want to be sent on a quest to find a local womans missing child only to find that shes being held captive by a renegade band of thieves and fight my way into there base of operations and heroically rescue the child, bring her back to her mother and recieve my reward only to find out that her mother had sold her to these thieves and when shes caught by me she fights back and I am forced to kill her leaving her child parentless (dads dead I guess lol). After that I have the choice to take her under my wing if im feeling compasionate or she gets sent to the orphanage. I want quests with plots and twists and turns. I want to be made sad, happy, or angry at the characters in the game. I never FEEL in MMO's. No sense of urgency, pain, anger, sadness, overwhelming joy.

Quests like this were actually attempted in Tabula Rasa, although unfortunately, that game got shut down supposedly due to politics inside NCSoft.