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News & Features Discussion  » Vanguard: Saga of Heroes: It's a Gem of a Game

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92 posts found
  aspekx

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/24/05
Posts: 2191

9/13/11 6:54:50 PM#61

Originally posted by Inktomi

Chelan,


As for balance, its really hard to keep an even keel between PvE and PvP builds in a largescale MMO setting. Rift (of what I recall since last played) has descended into a min-max nightmare of flavor of the month builds that are either totally OP to survive in PvP or gimped. One of the reasons why I left that game, as pretty as I thought it was. 


I believe a game needs to have some depth as well as polish. One of the problems (and strengths) of Vanguard was its crafting system. One of the most indepth crafting systems existing in MMORPG's, however, a solid crafting system needs a solid economy to make it worth crafting. Both buying supplies, parts or selling you wares, crafters need a market to work with or it just becomes a meaningless time and money sink. Thats the big part of the puzzle that was missing for me in VG.


FFA Loot system helps that type of economy, so does a having a thriving population. Both things that VG was (is?) lacking. I've written and read many things on how ingame economy is the secret glue that holds the communities together. 


~Ink



 


i agree with you about economy, though perhaps not about the solution, FFA PvP loot is what i believe you recommended. though its clear that you can't have an economy functioning w/o a population to sustain it.


i didn't used to think that about games until a few years back when AoC launched w/ no crafting system, though there was an auction house for looted items. it just wasn't enough to keep one's interest. and in fact its the only thing i truly ignore in Vanguard, the auction house that is.


so i think saying that all elements need to be balanced is true, however, there are some of us who believe pvp or ffa loot aren't necessities for a balanced game. SWGpreNGE had a thriving economy w/o full loot, but of course it made up for that in the quality of the harvesting and crafting minigame along with a population size to support it.


having said that, there have been several players who have asked if there were pvp ingame or not and after replying they have expressed serious disappointment, as they loved the game so far, but couldn't imagine one w/o pvp. i can, they can't, the world moves on.


its bothered me enough though that i've wondered if i should try and start up an old tradition from early in the game where they would have arena matches (there are several sites perfect for this). the matches would primarily be based on class, so clerics for instance fighting only clerics, etc.


i understand that this is not 'real' pvp, just dueling, however it could help players somewhat, perhaps.


"There are at least two kinds of games.
One could be called finite, the other infinite.
A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse

  aspekx

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/24/05
Posts: 2191

9/13/11 7:04:03 PM#62

Originally posted by ArcheAge


Originally posted by SuperXero89



Originally posted by Thillian



Originally posted by mCalvert



Originally posted by SuperXero89


I stopped reading when the reviewer said Vanguard wasn't as pretty as Rift, AoC, or LotRO.  I mean, AoC is debatable, and Rift might have better lighting in some cases.  LotRO though? lmao, this site really plugs that game.



 The lotro environment is about as photorealitic as you can get. The animations are horrible. The environment is probably the best you can get.



 Lotro, photorealistic...? For me it looks rather like a cartoon, the scenery is unrealistic, not even close to VG landscape.



to me, LotRO is somewhere in between the cartoony nature of WoW and the realism of Vanguard.  Now I will say that there are a lot of areas in VG that look flat out unfinished and bad (seems to be a theme with the game), but I think if you were to compare some of the most impressive areas in each game, Vanguard will win hands down.


If you were to compare things like textures, lighting effects, and the like, Vanguard wins without quesiton.  LotRO was designed to run on mid-range machines in 2007, so you won't see a lot of detailed texures.  LotRO does a good job at tricking people into thinking the game is better looking than it is thanks to its impressive draw distance.  Vanguard was designed with the future in mind (big mistake honestly) and it shows as most games still do not have the level of graphical complexity of that game, especially given that it's open world.



I have played Vanguard since beta,i have 4 level 55 toons and many mid ranged toons. I have been everywhere in Telon and seen all of the enviroments. I also run an top of the range desktop with two gtx over clocked 580 gtx Sli cards as the crowning glory so i have played the game with everything maxed.


I also use the /setfog command in Vanguard.


 


Now saying that i have also been a lifetime sub member of lotro since release and been all over middle earth runing in dx11 and before that dx10.


lotro trumps Vanguard for enviroments and lighting,texture and the like.


Sorry but as much as i love Vanguard lotro enviroments are second to none IMO and the water is right up their with AOC water.




 



 


i think ActionMMORPG is making a slightly different point than you have picked out of his post. however, i think he could explain it better than i could.


i will say, that the water in Vanguard used to be beautiful, however, they 'turned it off' as it were due to latency, drawing, and lag issues. when a whole seacoast is busy drawing gorgeous water in the manner that Vanguard does, it causes serious hitching.


this resolution is similar to the /setfog one. ingame they added an 'extra layer' of fog to the game. at the time it increased performance by preventing excessive drawing, however, today's cards can handle it w/ minimum trouble. i run with no fog whenever i play and my card is just a GeForce GT240, albeit backed up with 5gb of memory on the mobo.


so while i think Action is saying that both games represent 2 different methods of graphical representation, i will add that some of the issues you are referring to were purposefully done to make the VG graphics more machine friendly.


personally i find LotROs art and Vanguard's art, just as i find Rift's art, to be quite different in and of themselves. even if they were all using the same mechanism to push their graphics. LotRo is gorgeous, Rift is terrific, and i think the vistas and countryside of VG are fabulous. but they are all very different.


"There are at least two kinds of games.
One could be called finite, the other infinite.
A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse

  teakbois

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/06/06
Posts: 2190

9/13/11 7:15:18 PM#63

Originally posted by afhn2110

Some games will never get a second chance, also...very few have faith in SOE.  They had a huge population at launch...but the game was soooo bad.  SOE launched to count their dollors...this is a dev that doesn't care about its people and it shows in their games.  I was a vanguard fanboy back in the day myself, but I'd be shocked if you'd ever seen the people in that game that were at launch..it was bad...maybe the worst launch ever next to Earthrise.





 


This is part fo the reason that SoE is so hated, because people LOVE to spread misinformation about SoE and blame them for every little thing.


 


When Vanguard launched, SoE was merely the publisher.  After being dumped by their previous publisher, and given the condition the game was in, its HIGHLY unlikely anyone else would have published Vanguard.


 


The reason VG launched early is Sigil had no money.  Not because SoE made them.


  Inktomi

Highlighted Blogger

Joined: 3/25/09
Posts: 664

Give me sparkly, twinkly...

9/13/11 8:34:38 PM#64
Originally posted by chelan

Originally posted by Inktomi

Chelan,


As for balance, its really hard to keep an even keel between PvE and PvP builds in a largescale MMO setting. Rift (of what I recall since last played) has descended into a min-max nightmare of flavor of the month builds that are either totally OP to survive in PvP or gimped. One of the reasons why I left that game, as pretty as I thought it was. 


I believe a game needs to have some depth as well as polish. One of the problems (and strengths) of Vanguard was its crafting system. One of the most indepth crafting systems existing in MMORPG's, however, a solid crafting system needs a solid economy to make it worth crafting. Both buying supplies, parts or selling you wares, crafters need a market to work with or it just becomes a meaningless time and money sink. Thats the big part of the puzzle that was missing for me in VG.


FFA Loot system helps that type of economy, so does a having a thriving population. Both things that VG was (is?) lacking. I've written and read many things on how ingame economy is the secret glue that holds the communities together. 


~Ink



 

i agree with you about economy, though perhaps not about the solution, FFA PvP loot is what i believe you recommended. though its clear that you can't have an economy functioning w/o a population to sustain it.


i didn't used to think that about games until a few years back when AoC launched w/ no crafting system, though there was an auction house for looted items. it just wasn't enough to keep one's interest. and in fact its the only thing i truly ignore in Vanguard, the auction house that is.


so i think saying that all elements need to be balanced is true, however, there are some of us who believe pvp or ffa loot aren't necessities for a balanced game. SWGpreNGE had a thriving economy w/o full loot, but of course it made up for that in the quality of the harvesting and crafting minigame along with a population size to support it.


having said that, there have been several players who have asked if there were pvp ingame or not and after replying they have expressed serious disappointment, as they loved the game so far, but couldn't imagine one w/o pvp. i can, they can't, the world moves on.


its bothered me enough though that i've wondered if i should try and start up an old tradition from early in the game where they would have arena matches (there are several sites perfect for this). the matches would primarily be based on class, so clerics for instance fighting only clerics, etc.


i understand that this is not 'real' pvp, just dueling, however it could help players somewhat, perhaps.

I feel that a working and viable market would be more of my recommendation. FFA didn't work for SOE that's maybe why they turned it off. From my recent tour of Mortal Online (same time frame, 30 days plus two weeks) the whole game centered around FFA. But there was no safe central marketplace to trade. Same situation as Darkfall had, ton of demand and no safe way to supply. Even crafting was a gamble in itself.

The lure of a FFA economy is that there is a constant demand for products, weapons, armor, housing, guild supplies etc. There is always someone losing a fight and losing all their stuff. Thats great for crafters, because (some of) the hardcore pvprs don't want to craft and just want to walk up to a market or trade and get back out there. Creating a society of unlimited wants. 

Society is the operative word though. What I feel is the real recommendation is for SOE to invest some money into VG, create a winback or a new player campaign that someone layed out earlier. Graphical overhaul ( on some stuff ) and addition of a ton of new content would spark some interest. Lower the dang price. For heavens sake, something is only worth as much as someone will pay. If the community doesn't think VG is worth 15 bucks, then its not - Drop the price.

Unfortunately, SOE was very candid and verbal about not wanting to spend the resources on VG, thats where the growth ends and the downward cycle begins. Just take a look at the old Star Wars Galaxies, the community pleaded for them to make it free and they turned them down flat. Citing that it would take too many resources that they didn't want to focus on the game, so they would rather just sundown it and move those resources to something else. Shame, but thats how business suits think.

The real issue with Vanguard is really not with the game at all, its the company running it.

  Prigogine

Novice Member

Joined: 10/22/08
Posts: 18

9/16/11 4:44:30 AM#65

I just downloaded 14-day trial and started yesterday, I was pleasantly surprised by the game.  Albiet the graphics are very dated and such, but what they have going in game is actually pretty cool, I think. I'm really liking the Diplomacy part it adds a nice relief when you want to just muck about rather then fight.  I haven't delved into the Crafting yet but will definately be interested in seeing how that is too.


I also agree that if they were to make a VG2 with updated graphics and such it could be a nice relief to those of us burned out on other MMO's.  I've been playing all sorts lately and am just washed out with them.  Waiting for a few new ones to be released...ahh you know the ones =)


This game has definately given me some hope in the meantime that their are still games out there that have "something" to them.  Wish I would have started playing it sooner, but glad I waited until now to give me a bit of joy between games.  Don't know if I will sub to it or not after the 14 days, but if they came out with a newer version (VG2) I would definately be in line too be a part of it!!!


  Wizardling6

Novice Member

Joined: 2/17/08
Posts: 103

Frog blast the vent core!

9/20/11 12:21:18 AM#66

Why is Vanguard's skill progression system "archaic"? I like having to search out and buy new levels of skills in games.


If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

  Maendauron

Novice Member

Joined: 1/31/09
Posts: 120

9/20/11 4:21:35 AM#67

This is my favourite game of all time but I stopped playing when I couldn't find people to play regularly with in the Australian time zone.  If people returned to it I would be back on the boat!


Seriously the best MMO ever made.  I doubt SOE will ever do anything worthwhile with it though.


  djvapid

Novice Member

Joined: 7/05/11
Posts: 82

9/20/11 8:43:31 AM#68

I like people who post on here as if their opinion mattered to anyone that it actually needs to matter to.


  Whytewulf

Novice Member

Joined: 9/26/11
Posts: 8

9/26/11 1:32:30 PM#69

I am downloading the game as we speak.  I want to check this out again.  I think everyone should!


  Whytewulf

Novice Member

Joined: 9/26/11
Posts: 8

9/26/11 1:59:32 PM#70

Does anyone know if you had played it 3 years ago, if you can still get the trial?


  MareWinds

Novice Member

Joined: 9/13/07
Posts: 46

9/27/11 4:18:02 PM#71

Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

My response to Vanguard over the years has always been the same: Refund me the box price from buying it the day it launched and give me an entire month free and I might check it out. Since that is not going to happen, I will never set foot in that world again.


 


I played the day it launched and it was literally the worst launch I have ever seen. The world crashed every hour and reset the saved data (both character and the landmarks that were supposed to be marked forever by the first person to find them). There were bugs all over the place. And, even though it was brand new, there wasn't a big population which was likely due to people trying to log in, seeing the game crashing a couple times and saying the hell with it.


 


You can't do a launch like that and expect all of those people you burned on the box price to ever come back and give you another shot. Even Final Fantasy gets that and gave people months worth of free time for how awful and unfinished their game was. But Vanguard? No, they just took everyon'e money and didn't give out and compensation for the massive unfinished, bug filled, crashing mess they released.



 


That was me as well - the only game I ever pre-ordered without being in the beta first. I found myself fighitng the game as I played, trying to enjoy it even though the compass and chat window were nothing but blackness, and quest text overwrote itself. The final straw for me occurred when I walked into a bank for the first time... and felt this overwhelming need to stand in one place, on a rug was suspended in the middle of nothing. I could see thorugh the world.


Talk about a lesson learned the hard way.


I'd try it again if it was F2P (never did say that I'd come back if they fixed the big breaks). That's always been the key for me.


  MareWinds

Novice Member

Joined: 9/13/07
Posts: 46

9/27/11 4:19:51 PM#72

Originally posted by djvapid

I like people who post on here as if their opinion mattered to anyone that it actually needs to matter to.





 


And we like people who read our comments and respond to them, even though nobody's opinion matters in the long run.


  Shibari

Novice Member

Joined: 12/16/08
Posts: 12

9/28/11 2:01:45 AM#73

People are looking for a WoW replacement since Blizz decided to ignore the casual gamer. 


Vanguard is the answer.  I love the Diplomacy and crafting systems.  They are incredible! 


This game needs some attention from SoE and I hope they give it some, soon, as it has the ability to knock WoW clean out of the water.


  Sinaku

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/06/07
Posts: 463

9/28/11 2:10:49 AM#74

If you had your account around december of 2010 you have 45 days of free play. Just a thought.

Anyway, just recently started playing and I am in love. The fighting system has a certain charm to it that I feel like many games have been lacking lately. The crafting system is very nice and in depth, probably one of the best I have seen in a while. Diplomacy is something that I haven't seen much of in an MMO and even though I dont really partake in it, it is still interesting to have.

Graphically the game is really on par with many other games at it's level. Terrain and World design are amazing! Quests arent really anything to go into detail about but I can really say that creature and world design are so good that each quest really does offer something new.

I know all about being burned on preorders and release dates but if you really liked the idea of what the game was suppose to be then I suggest you try it out again!

  Jorendo

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/02/08
Posts: 213

9/28/11 2:24:07 AM#75

After reading the re-review i got really excited (curses that i read this while my workd day just began >.<). I have quit Rift after 2 months playing and haven't touched  any MMORPG since. But hell i shall give the trail a try. I never been a raider nor a fast lvler so this sounds like just the game for me where the focus is on getting to the end lvl instead of end game content. Every MMORPG should include that.


  Wizardry

Elite Member

Joined: 8/27/04
Posts: 6684

Perhaps tomorrow will be better.

9/28/11 2:28:33 AM#76

There was nothing to lack of expectations,it was more player stupidity for the most part that gave the game a bad reputation.Yes there was a few bugs like getting stuck,that was quickly fixed using a command that i forget now and yes yo ucoudl fall thorugh the world[ annoying for sure].But that was about it,nothing else was game breaking and for the msot part was actuyall ya BETTER experience than the other games were offering.

I was there in game and got to watch chat everyday,it was pathetic as people with inferior machines talking about running lower graphic games and expecting to run VG just the same.VG was/is a VERY intensive graphic game that happens to use shaders as many games do not.it also has a much wider viewscape than pretty much every game on the market,so yes you better have a powerful machine to run it.My machine was not even around when Eq2 was made and i still can't run that game near max settings.

Sure it is possible to code these games better utilizing techniques and multi cores and better gpu use,but fact is NONE of the devs are doing it any better.It just so happens that the other lazy devs have lower poly games ,so they can get away with looking less incompetent when compared to Sigil.

The ONLY reason i did not stick it out in VG was because at the time i had already invested a lot of effort in a very similiar game in Eq2 and FFXI.FFXI really was my fave game and just did the important things a little better.Yes i like the faction ideas in both EQ2 and VG and yes i liked the card game in VG,heck i liked most of the game,but like i said it was a notch below what i wanted and was given in FFXI.

After i decided FFXI has been ruined forever and looked for anotehr game or one to rreturn ,i could have chosen VG but i went with EQ2.Either game would suffice for now,but i had already invested effort in EQ2 and it offered me a free to play server where i could utilize trio boxing with extra free accounts.Otherwise i would have chosen VG as my number 2 game behind FFXI,it really deos deserve credit at the top.

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/user/Napolianboo#p/u/15/rCYLLQCNc1w
Samoan Diamond

  Xiara

Novice Member

Joined: 9/07/07
Posts: 20

9/28/11 4:19:27 AM#77

I was there at launch and played for about 6 months. VG had a ton of potential, and the best classes in any MMO to date period. There was quite a bit of content in the world, but much of it was hidden (off the beaten path) and since there was no giant sign pointing where to go...people didn't find it until it was too late.


Lack of raid content prior to that dragon/dock raid a year later killed it. Guilds were clearing the volcanic area with trash mobs 10x harder than the dragon boss (who dropped no loot I might add) =(

 


The game was not completely broken as many said; I leveled up to 50 and enjoyed my time without finding a million bugs. But we know how doom/gloom spreads throughout the community so fast. Much of the content was very well designed too.




The game ultimately got a bad wrap cuz folks had crap PC systems coming from WoW and other games trying to run the resource hog VG. Ran fine for me; 30-40fps and I had a decent PC nothing special. There was also no hand holding just like EQ1. You went out and found the content and actually explored. I dunno...I had no issues following questlines to different continents and using the map.



 







 




 

~Xiara D'Aarmon

  Furiant

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/11/10
Posts: 13

10/07/11 8:37:23 PM#78

I loved Vanguard, but of all the issues people mention here, it was the GUI that drove me away. It was clunky, sluggish, nearly carved in stone. I always felt like I was wrestling with it - total immersion breaker. To win my heart they'd need to make the GUI far more flexible and customizable. 


  TweFoju

Tipster

Joined: 6/27/09
Posts: 933

10/08/11 8:08:57 PM#79

as a matter of fact, i just started playing VG today, but i am enjoying more than i ever did with all the F2Ps recently, and i hadn't had more fun start of a MMO since the Vanilla days,


yes, the graphics are not the best compared to games like LOTRO or AOC, but i think it's ok, the community is fun as far as i know, almost everyone i met at IoD was replying me back and it is actually pretty alive


now i know that it's the starting area and it's crowded than the rest of the world, and i can't say much as i am still in the IoD, but it's been giving me a decent start with what i seen so far


VG is dead? i'd say far from it, all we need is more players, and theres even a new content coming out at the end of the year


So What Now?

  GreenHell

Novice Member

Joined: 11/27/05
Posts: 1341

10/08/11 8:40:20 PM#80

If this wan't an SOE game I think more people would be willing to give it another chance. Lets be honest here anyone who thinks that SOE is going to devote a ton of resources to this game 4-5 years after they came in to possession of it is fooling themsleves. You might get an update or two so you keep paying until they release one of their new MMO's but after that do you really believe VG has a bright future ahead of it?

 

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