Originally posted by Loktofeit

It cheapens their grinding experience if somene else didn't 'accomplish' the same number of endless hours clicking the same five numbers (and whatever Get/Loot is) over and over.

... because racing through 60+ levels of content to get to the end-game where one will grind through the same raid instances or PvP battlegrounds over and over and over again to get the best loot and gear... so they're ready to do it all over again as soon as the next expansion brings more raids and more gear is clearly a superior alternative, right?

A pretty ironic post you made there, Lokto.

Has it occurred to you  (and the OP) that maybe... just maybe the people going through that lower and mid level content that the so-called "racers" consider "boring" or "painful" or whatever are actually enjoying going through it? I know I know... people enjoying something you don't... It's a crazy concept, right?

Hell, at least the "grinders" are experiencing 60, 70 or more levels of content, exploring all the areas more thoroughly and so forth. They're getting more out of the game than a relative handful of raid instances at level cap that account for maybe 10% of the overall game. I realize that ~10% is what many of the "racers" consider "the only part that matters". But that's a whole other story...

And by the by, calling them "grinders" is a horrible misnomer. I prefer to call them "adventurers" or, dispensing with "gamer type" labels, simply "gamers". Now the reason that term, 'grinders' is specifically used to label them in yours and the OP's post isn't lost on me. It's used because "grinding" typically has a negative connotation, and so, using it to describe the "non-racers" puts them in a negative light which helps to serve the OP's post, and your reply. Yes, it's that obvious.

All that said...

I'll answer the OP's subject line with questions of my own: Why does it matter what others think? They're not stopping you from "racing" to the end-game, are they? So, why bring it up and make a thread about it in the first place? Why make a problem out of nothing?

 Before I delve into the topic at hand I simply must point out a few things :

1. It is not nessecary to coin new descriptors for mmorpg players.

 A. Power gamers is well established to be the " I must reach end game as fast as possible "  type .

B. I know of no such descriptor which single handidly encompasses every player who enjoys either ; The journey, Exploring all the content, or moving at a pace less than that of a power gamer.

C. Grinders alludes to something completely diffrent than that which you are using it for,  it more suits a Power Gamer to grind as its generally the quickest ( and most boring ) way to reach end game content.

Now I feel better, as I understand what you were getting at I can reply to the topic at hand ... just felt it nessecary to clarify for your and other posters.

----------

 Like others have allready stated ... in all my years of playing mmorpgs I have never once seen a power-gamer attacked for being what he is WITHOUT FIRST having posted a complaint. I am a power gamer myself ...  the journey doesn't concern me in the least, its all about the end game for me. Given that I understand what type of gamer I am I also understand that when I do reach level /  content cap and have nothing further to do there I should not gripe about it. This isssue has become a mote point in the last few years though .... rarely do you find end game is completed before a new tier is unlocked. ( Be that in content or gear ) Developers have started to build stop gaps into their system and as the majority of the power gaming pack completes a given bracket, the next is unlocked or something new to accomplish is released.

 So .... I think your question is an extremely isolated incident,  perhaps it would help if you could give us an example of the situation your question refrences ?

Originally posted by WSIMike

A pretty ironic post you made there, Lokto.

Has it occurred to you  (and the OP) that maybe... just maybe the people going through that lower and mid level content that the so-called "racers" consider "boring" or "painful" or whatever are actually enjoying going through it? I know I know... people enjoying something you don't... It's a crazy concept, right?

Has it occured to you that I never have said that I don't belive people are enjoying the content? I am actually a bit jealous just because some people can, while I can't. Please, do some reading first. I have perfectly that it is a grind to me, ploughing through all the content. Utterly boring, which is grind. That's why I call them "grinders".

I'll answer the OP's subject line with questions of my own: Why does it matter what others think? They're not stopping you from "racing" to the end-game, are they? So, why bring it up and make a thread about it in the first place? Why make a problem out of nothing?

Why does it not matters? Cause way too often is it thrown at me and others; IT IS ALL ABOUT THE JOURNEY. Now, why are these grinders making this problem out of nothing when the fact is that I am contributing to the same game as them; heck I am not even in their ways. So no, it is not me who's making a problem outta nothing.

Originally posted by Redemp

 Before I delve into the topic at hand I simply must point out a few things :

SNIP. It is GRINDER's or RACER's to me.                                                                                                                              

 Like others have allready stated ... in all my years of playing mmorpgs I have never once seen a power-gamer attacked for being what he is WITHOUT FIRST having posted a complaint. I am a power gamer myself ...  the journey doesn't concern me in the least, its all about the end game for me. Given that I understand what type of gamer I am I also understand that when I do reach level /  content cap and have nothing further to do there I should not gripe about it. This isssue has become a mote point in the last few years though .... rarely do you find end game is completed before a new tier is unlocked. ( Be that in content or gear ) Developers have started to build stop gaps into their system and as the majority of the power gaming pack completes a given bracket, the next is unlocked or something new to accomplish is released.

 So .... I think your question is an extremely isolated incident,  perhaps it would help if you could give us an example of the situation your question refrences ?

I think I have said it dozens of times, but I will happily repeat myself; I race to end level for the PvP. I wonder why these grinders have a problem with other people racing to end level for the PvP. For a "PvP'er there is no "end of content", as PvP can come in many forms, all from RvR, Faction vs Faction, Single player vs Single Player, World PvP, Sieges, Arenas, and of course Battlegrounds. So why all this hate? If I race to get into the end level PvP content, I will probably know what end level content there is for me, right? Therefore would "whining" be completely futiless. And as long as the game offers end level PvP, there would not be any reason to complain. Actually, the cheapest game mechanics must definately be to make PvP content. How hard can it be to make some Battlegrounds really?

Actually, majority of the gamers in Real Life that I know, falls under this category of racers. Most I know want to race to end level just to mainly experience the PvP there.

So why all this hate?

  This is what I was asking about,  what hate ? Could you present a situation in which you have been attacked for simply being a power gamer? I have certainly never been attacked for being what I am, not without me atleast inviting the criticism to begin with.

 For example :

Power Gamer 001 : So folks,  end game contents pretty much your run of the mill scripted encounter. There are alot of broken mobs, areas you can't access and the whole thing feels a bit underwhelming.

 The above is an invitation to for criticism from the normal players ,  while the statement is mild and seemingly appropriate it opens the doors for people to start waving the " Thats what you get for leveling so quickly" banners. On one hand the content might have still been broken if the power gamers hadn't reached it,  on the other the developers might have had the time to correct the issue with further inhouse testing. The example is pretty mild in my experience ... as generally the first posts that get power gamers attacked are more along the lines  of  " Theres nothing to do once you hit max level! ".

 It really doesn't matter anyway ...  I doubt normal players ( not a bad thing )  hate or even dislike power gamers. I won't speculate as to why some of them attack powers gamers, nor as to why some power gamers have it in for the normal players. It would just start some nonsense debate that everyone has an opinion about, everyone would disagree about, and everyone was correct and wrong about. 

Originally posted by Redemp

 For example :

Power Gamer 001 : So folks,  end game contents pretty much your run of the mill scripted encounter. There are alot of broken mobs, areas you can't access and the whole thing feels a bit underwhelming.

You too seem to (intentionally?) forget that I am not after fighting some lame scripted mobs. I am after the most challenging part an MMO can offer; PvP. I am very competetive of nature, so I find it quite reasonable to get to "end" level as soon as I can, so I can put up a fight against them when they jump me. Quite logic, aint it?

Originally posted by Madimorga

What someone else is doing for fun in an MMO is not my concern, not unless their fun is affecting my fun.  The problem I have with anyone else's pace is when I'm expected to match it. 

 

My least favorite things to hear in an MMO are:

 

1.  It gets fun at level cap, just suck it up and quest, it doesn't take long to max anyway, it's not like it used to be back when I first started playing MMOs.  (Well okay, yeah, but my complaint isn't the length of time I'm not having fun, my complaint is that I'm not having fun, period).

 

2.  It's all about the journey, not the destination (while that might be true, if the journey is putting me to sleep, I have little desire to hear this canned response).

 

3.  Get a guild, it gets fun when you have a guild.  (Not everyone thinks being in a guild is fun.)

 

4.  Play for a month, grind your skills, afk macro your heart out, and then, in some rare, unusual, once in a lifetime situation, your squishy noob self might be useful in pvp (but only if you're in a guild of course).

 

5.  This game isn't made for crafters/people who don't like to quest/pvpers/carebears/soloers.  (If true of course this is a good thing to tell someone who is unhappy, so they can move on, but if the game devs claim their game has a place for something and then the players claim it does not, it's confusing, and I'm certainly going to be irritated with someone over it).

 

Originally posted by chrisel

Originally posted by Redemp

 For example :

Power Gamer 001 : So folks,  end game contents pretty much your run of the mill scripted encounter. There are alot of broken mobs, areas you can't access and the whole thing feels a bit underwhelming.

You too seem to (intentionally?) forget that I am not after fighting some lame scripted mobs. I am after the most challenging part an MMO can offer; PvP. I am very competetive of nature, so I find it quite reasonable to get to "end" level as soon as I can, so I can put up a fight against them when they jump me. Quite logic, aint it?

 I don't care what your reasons are for being a power gamer,  thats your business. Given that you specify pvp .... what then is your issue?

Are you getting attacked because normal players aren't at your level and then rage about it?

Give me an example to work with ..... otherwise this discussion is pretty pointless.

Originally posted by Redemp

 I don't care what your reasons are for being a power gamer,  thats your business. Given that you specify pvp .... what then is your issue?

Are you getting attacked because normal players aren't at your level and then rage about it?

Give me an example to work with ..... otherwise this discussion is pretty pointless.

Ok, then this discussion is over between me and you. You clearly can't understand whatever I say here, so it is as you say; pretty pointless :)

Originally posted by chrisel

Originally posted by Redemp

 I don't care what your reasons are for being a power gamer,  thats your business. Given that you specify pvp .... what then is your issue?

Are you getting attacked because normal players aren't at your level and then rage about it?

Give me an example to work with ..... otherwise this discussion is pretty pointless.

Ok, then this discussion is over between me and you. You clearly can't understand whatever I say here, so it is as you say; pretty pointless :)

 Is there a language barrier between us?

You want to know why  your "grinders" hate "Racers"   but won't provide any examples of this hate to clarify your position or question. Give me an example , outline a few comments, whisper in my ear,  paint me a picture , I'll take "A Clue" for 1,000 Trebek.

Or is this thread just for the endless debate of which style is correct and which is wrong? If so I'll take my ball and go.

Originally posted by chrisel

Originally posted by Goatgod76

Originally posted by Loktofeit

It cheapens their grinding experience if somene else didn't 'accomplish' the same number of endless hours clicking the same five numbers (and whatever Get/Loot is) over and over.

Yeah, because end game is in NO WAY the same endless clicking grind. /eyeroll

Exactly. End level PvP is fun, which in turn is not a grind. Hard to understand? Fighting same mobs over and over again until you can kill them with one hand off the keyboard drinking tea without looking at the screen, that ain't boring... /eyeroll

 

I wasn't referring to PvP.   Raiding...which is the other alternative to end game. I personally have no interest in PvP.

Originally posted by chrisel

Originally posted by Goatgod76

As I said...thsoe types want to be "1st" in everything. They have this "Look at me!" mentality and feel they always have to outdo everyone else rather than grow with them. Also what lends to dismal communities because they can't be bothered with grouping...that would cut into their loot and money.

I have no need to be "1st" in everything. I just have a need for the speed in PvP. I love doing world PvP while I level, but not on well established servers since it is certain you will get your butt whopped around by some griefers sooner or later, or worse corpse camped.

Well good for you, but again...I wasn't referring to PvP. Actually talking about the same thing you mentioned in another post about those who whine/cry/brag about their shinies, etc via Raiding.

PvP in nearly all MMO's is unbalanced. Or, are full of douches and cowards that gang PvP then talk smack like they accomplished some great feat. If I want PvP I play FPS games on a console, where it belongs IMO.

P.S. Why do I see you repeatedly defending yourself against forum members who weren't even talking to you, but instead quoting other forum members and responding to them? Just curious.

The genuine reasons I see behind this argument lie in what devs do to please end game grinders:

• To reduce experience requirement for a level,
• To offer leveling potions and gear,
• To make quests and dungeons stupid easy (dumbing down),
• To release end game content patch after patch, while leaving the leveling world to rot.

Originally posted by Bladestrom

And since when did anyone think of themselves as solely a grinder, oh wait "grinder"  well anyway to argue against this, a "racer" races past content then promptly starts complaining - I want content! thats the issue.

I think this is the issue SOME have. Me, I could give two plops (i'm a, by your definition,  "grinder", btw).

cuz when that happens we all have to hear the idiots that race to the endgame cry and complain that there isnt anything to do.

I really don't care if you race to end game or if it takes you a year to hit max level. Im not paying your sub so do whatever you want to. When I play an MMO I see most other people as just random npc's anyways. To me most players are as real as a vendor or AH guy.

The thing that see here is that you have someone who is better suited to a FPS multiplyer game trying to play a MMO. MMO's are not ment to cater to just the one aspect of the PVP players fancy and is not truely the 'end game' of any MMO. It is a part to some but if all you care about is the joy of testing yourself verses another person be it in a team or solo then sounds like you come from a FPS culture and not as much the idea of a massive and persistant world that often is part of the mainstream MMO's.

One of the other issues here is that if all you need for you enjoymenmt is others to PVP against then really what 'end game' doe developers need to put in there for you other than some area to fight it out? Turly the 'end game' of any MMO or expansion would be the end of the chapter or story that they are telling usualy with some epic battle. That is not the realm of someone who is just in it for the PVP and thus you should never come into conflict with the general player base who is enjoying the world and its story.

That is unless you are one who when reaches complain that there is nothing to do because either no one else raced to the end like you or its just you and your friends or its all the same people who play and none of the other thousiands of players on your server give a care about PVP and your taunts or challenges and such that many of the PVP lovers tend to spout (i.e the constand duel request or the name calling by PVP players against those who like to play the game with derogatory terms like carebears and such).

As was stated earlier what has happened in MMO's is that many are seeing its as some new alternative to FPS games and and some RPG's where there is the cut scene at the end where the hero walks off into the shadows/sunset. But a true MMO is by its naturen ment to be open ended, there is no set 'end game' it is always growing and developing and changing. That is the strength of the MMO over FPS and RPG consoles that you can contimue on. Now often the pauses in the story are around when you hit max level and fight the big bad bit then you also have ability to go back and try things you did not before. But if all you crave is the thrill of killing bits and pixels then would suggest looking at games that are more tailord to that than most of the sci-fi and fantasy themed MMO's that are around. No game can become more than a nitch game if they cater to a single narrow view of how to play be it the casual take your time (which is what the whole sub based idea thrives with, or the free to play which tends to cater more to the 'i must beast this game now' attitude of the power gamers.

(note the you here is the more general you and not in refrence to any one poster in this thread )

One very big reason is because those same people are usually the ones crying for change or trying to take the game away from the rest who actually want to enjoy that "ride" the game offers.So if you want to race off and keep it to "yourself" without whining,then there should be no problem.

There is yet another important factor and that is pve vs pvp.Since it has become apparent that most develoeprs are just too lazy to design a separate PVP and pve design ,they might and have made huge game changes to cater to the end gamer..pvp.

So is there a problem?Nope,as long as if you want to race thorugh and not care about the game,don't go trying to change it for the rest of us who paid for and want to enjoy the entire game as is.Example someone wil lnot be happy starting up say a Shadowknight only to find down the road a bunch of end gamers whined enough to cause the dev to make changes that made your SK no longer fun to play.

Perfect examples of this was the whole SWG debacle.So many people wanted content without grind,so SOE started to try and cater to them and make changes.Making changes to a game that people already love can be VERY detrimental.

point is..if you want others to not care about what you do in game,then make sure you don't take actions to make them care.Race off to end game if you like,then mind your own business and not ruin it for the rest.