I don't think it's acceptable for WoW either?

If your game is good enough you can put all the imaginable payment models in it, people will whine but they still keep paying and voting with their wallets if the product is indeed good enough to pay and pay.

Question is, will TSW be good enough for multiple payment models? Wallets will do the talking after the game is out, fighting over it now is pointless because everyone who says "I'm not playing it because of all the payment stuff" WILL play the game if it turns out to be very good, if not then no one will play it regardless of payment models, so, kinda pointless atm.

If I pay monthly sub why should I pay more to get items that should ibe in game? Sub + CS means that devs will create at least part of content for CS only. If they want to implement CS then fine. But make the game f2p then.

Actually it's funny how FC is desingning plans for milking their future customers as much as possible, not being even able to launch beta registration without major problems.

Who cares what WoW has? It's an aging game many don't like nor play anymore.

Just to clarify, I'm not a fan of the idea. The point of my previous post is that it is just standard practice. To single out one game is unfair.

Let's take this argument in a different direction.

Consider cars. Cars come with basic features, you pay extra for non-standard features. Some cars come with more standard features than others. All cars come with premium features that can be purchased. You could consider a basic car a stripped down version of the premium.

The problem lies in what is core to the experience and what is a luxury.

Originally posted by Terronte

Just to clarify, I'm not a fan of the idea. The point of my previous post is that it is just standard practice. To single out one game is unfair.

 

Let's take this argument in a different direction.

Consider cars. Cars come with basic features, you pay extra for non-standard features. Some cars come with more standard features than others. All cars come with premium features that can be purchased. You could consider a basic car a stripped down version of the premium.

The problem lies in what is core to the experience and what is a luxury.

 

If I buy a car i expect it to have a gear box and steering wheel. No way I'm wlling to pay extra to get these. If I buy a keyboard I expect it to have space bar and every other button, etc etc. Montly sub means that I'm paying for all the content. If they want to introduce CS then the game should be f2p. Sub + SC is greed and nothing justifies it.

I'm just going to throw this out here and see what people think.

Now, I've always opposed cash shop games since I think it'll lead to p2w. But, recently i've been thinking about p2w games. If money isn't a problem & you just buy say the best pvp gear off a cash shop, then you face another player who has also bought the best gear off the shop, isn't that a type of "balance" brought to the game? If you both have the best gear (since you both bought it) then isn't it going to come down to player skill to see who wins?

Now, ofcourse you'll be overpowered when it comes to the players who didnt/can't buy the cash shop gear. And ofcourse you could argue if all the best gear was attainable in-game for free, then you'd have the same, if not more, balance.  I'm not sure if player segregation (cash-shop players seperate to non-cash shop players) would be good for either group & the game. Ofcourse the cash-shop players would be in the minority & so struggle to find opponents which would eventually lead them to not playing the game or paying for items in the cash shop.

Then there's a case to be made for why you would even play a gear oriented game if you were simply going to buy items with real world money instead of earning them within the game. Made your character. Check. Bought all the gear you need from the store. Check. Played the game not having to actually aquire more gear. Check. I think all that would lead me and perhaps other players to stop playing the game far faster than it would if i had the carrot of gear progression always just out of my reach.

I'm just rambling here, but sub + cash shop to me doesnt seem too bad if your sub is giving you points or whatever every month to use in the shop. There has to be a clear benefit of paying the sub, otherwise you could just f2p and buy the things you want from the shop.  TSW releasing as a sub game with an optional extra cash shop i'm still not sure about. So the sub is just to get 'my foot in the door' as they say and then if i really want that awesome hat for my avatar i have to pay abit more to get it. Sure, that could have the effect of making that awesome hat i really want more exclusive, since not everyone will be able to buy it OR it could have the opposite effect, since the hat is soooo awesome, everyone was willing to pay alittle more to get one, but that has the opposite effect making the hat seem less awesome since everyone has it. That basically shows the cash shop idea for what it really is. It tries to make you feel like a special snowflake compared to the common masses of other players. I think it plays to the elitism side of the playerbase.

Anyway, rambled off in different directions there so i'm going to stop. That is just the mess on my mind at the moment.

Originally posted by Timukas

Originally posted by Terronte

The problem lies in what is core to the experience and what is a luxury.

 

If I buy a car i expect it to have a gear box and steering wheel. No way I'm wlling to pay extra to get these. If I buy a keyboard I expect it to have space bar and every other button, etc etc. Montly sub means that I'm paying for all the content. If they want to introduce CS then the game should be f2p. Sub + SC is greed and nothing justifies it.

 

You are getting the gearbox and steering wheel. You might not be getting the spoiler, the 20" rims, or the sun roof. Paying a sub does not entitle you to the same things Collector's Editions receive, why would it entitle you to the cash shop perks?

It isn't a big deal to me, so long as another player can't beat me in pvp because they went to the cash shop and so long as a team won't choose another player over me because they visited the cash shop and got something useful that I don't have and can't buy in game (easily and for a reasonable price).

Having been part of a game that went under (Tabula Rasa) I wish they would have done what ever they needed to make money, if that mean a cash shop then so be it.

The worst thing about a game isn't a cash shop, it is closing down because it doesn't make enough money to keep going.

Don't listen to the people who say payment model combinations are becoming standard. Nothing becomes standard until you settle for it. If the african americans settled for what is standard they would still be working the plantations. And this applies to everything in life. Boycott games that do this. And when their subs are -100k to 200k, they will wonder what happened and change their tune or shut down. Even if you don't use or care about cash shops/box/p2p and don't think it will affect you.

That which you permit, you promote. 

It's one of the many reasons I quit WoW.

To be fair though, the WoW cash shop only sells (sold?) cosmetic stuff, that I really don't care about.

Funcom cash shops on the other hand are P2W, with XP potions, buff potions, blue gear for all levels etc...

Screw them and their greed.

Funcom is the next SOE people, don't touch their games.

Because people, and gamers especially, love to complain about everything. When they get in mood, every single mechanic will be criticized, called bad, runing the genre, greedy, or other fancy words they may come with at given moment. There is no game people won't pointlessly complain about, and im sure, if i gven a chance they would discuss imbalance between black and white pieces in Chess. 

Personally... I do not give a damn. As long as it doesn't have negative impact on gameplay and meta-game every mmo can have as much of vanity crap in their Cash Shop as they desire. Don't like the stuff - do not buy it. Simple as that. 

Lucky me I already posted on this topic:

I really don't have a problem with a vanity item cash shop in my subscription game. Now if I have to pay for content unlocks like quest lines, zones or instances through the cash shop thats a different story and I'll walk away from the game. But as i understand it right now their idea for the shop is purely vanity items and they are welcome to that.

People ranting about it on principal, or it being greedy need to grow up. Its not just entertainmnet, it's a business. At least they have the good sense to plan out a payment model well in advance of launch instead of tacking on a cash shop a few months after launch.
 

If TSW is a terrbile game it won't matter one bit what pricing model they use, the game will fail. If it's a fantastic game and a success, they have every right to use whatever payment model is going to garner them the most revenue from the game. Revenue they can then use to hire more people, better support TSW with customer service and content development, work on  new games and grow their company.

tl;dr: Without knowing what's in the cash shop, people complaining about it are just the kind of people that like to complain without knowing all the facts about any subject, not just games.

Originally posted by twodayslate

Originally posted by senadin

It isnt because they dont know better it is because they CAN! The average MMO gamer? what does it mean really? I am 40 and started playing MMO with EQ.... MANY years ago and a lot of my friends as well. Oddly enough we pretty much dont mind paying for items that add convenience, such as mounts. I dont know many kids with credit cards that can do the same, pretty logic, unless that is they ask their parents.

The bottm line is a lot of MMO are switching to shop/hybrid model and all you cheapos better get used to it. If you dont like the way this MMO is heading, dont buy it.

If this is good for WoW, it's good for TSW and it will probably be good for TOR in the not too distant future i am willing to bet!

The game-altering cash shop enthusiast who argues for the economic might makes right position, arguably the worst kind of person in gaming (if not society).  I haven't seen this kind of fiscal irresponsibility since the last Starvault fanboy rant.  Did you ever think that your ability to shove money into the hands of undeserving, unethical developers for content that used to be included with your monthly sub doesn't make you better than someone who doesn't?  At least the have-nots in these systems possess some level of money smarts.

The sad part is that these "kids with credit cards," instead of being taught true financial responsibility by those older than them, are being shown that wastefulness is a good thing.  Great message to pass along in a recession, I respect you.

/clap.  Thank you, I could not have said better. 

Somehow Senadin's posts were rubbing me the wrong way despite appearing logical enough and you nailed it.

Same thread, same arguments for and against.

If you're the kind of person that feels they should be able to buy their way through a game with rl resources then you're not going to have a problem with the 3 payment scam. You're likely the kind of person that didn't have a problem with pwr lvling services or gold sellers.

If you're the kind of person that feels when they pay for something it should be all of that some thing and not want to get ripped off in order to play that game on a level playing field then you will most likely take issue with the scam.

Simple matter of fact is there is a huge difference between WoW and TSW doing it, WoW is worse becuase they changed the rules half way through, which is dispicable, how any fan of this game can put up with such a betrayal is beyond me. Pure out and out greed which is fed by subservience. TSW is up front from the start so you can make that choice based on your morals and at least they're letting you know from the get go. TOR will likely have the same system but are keeping their cards close as to what their cs will entail.

Clarification: CS's which sell purely administrative items such as character name changes (which I personally hate also, but more of a mechanic issue than anything), server transfers, even extra character slots (again something else I think is a bit of pisstake), basically not in-game altering features are to me acceptable. They are seperate from the game in some ways and don't effect it, they may be money pinching cheap ass things to charge already paying patrons but they don't effect the actual play so meh.

Originally posted by Phry

Originally posted by senadin

Because the new generation of MMO gamers are cheap ass kids who cant afford it is why!

I am one of those older folks who play MMO and i can afford that crap they sell and will. For me if it means my character will look unique i dont care to pay 10-15$ for some gear that will look different. Not that i pay for items that would give me powers mind you, that i can get on my own.

The game is a modern setting and i think it is great that we will have more options to look different than every other toon out there.

To all those cry babies who complain about this, i say good ridance! Go play your mindless games and let the adult gamers play this one in peace!

not exactly sure how you equate adult gamers to cash shops... if anything i would have said the reverse was true. As it is, most cash shops cater to the epeen crowd, one-upmanship etc etc.

I'm with Phry.  I'm fairly certain that I would fall into the "adult gamer" category, and I never use cash shops in MMORPGs.  Most of them only offer cosmetic items, which I couldn't care less about.  Those that actually offer "game-changing" items, I don't play.  Period.

There are some games (League of Legends, for example) where I've not hesitated to buy from the cash shop.  But, in LoL's case, that's its business model.  There's no box purchase; there's no subscription.  The only way the developers can make a buck is if you buy something.  Since I like playing LoL, and I appreciate the time and effort that the developers have put into the game, I have no problem with buying things from their shop.

Conversely, I played WoW for ~4 years, and not once did I buy anything from their cash shop.  The same for CoH/CoV, which I also played for ~4 years.  If I can't get enough enjoyment out of a subscription-based game by just playing it, then I don't subscribe to it.