Originally posted by kylekbb

Originally posted by Madimorga

It wouldn't work for me if I couldn't do it without joining a guild.  If I had to join a guild, it wouldn't be a player business, would it?  It would be a guild business, and only guild members would be able to participate.

I agree with this it would also need some kind of balance between the two. I would love to just run myself and maybe a few friends i find trustworthy.  But not with a whole guild like running a shipyard would proably need that kinda thing but a tavern with that would over run the little guys.

Anyone with the resources should be able to start a business. I just suggested relying on guilds to decide who is in charge politically. Say, a guild system where a guild has to do quests/diplomacy/development to gain "influence" in a region, and the guild with the most influence gets to set taxes, have a special title for the guild leader (so the community will be more likely to listen), declare war, etc... Of course anything (like a jail system) that can be exploited to abuse players should not be implemented and maybe there should be a way for players to revolt... If anyone has any better ideas for a political system in an MMORPG I am all ears...

Originally posted by kylekbb

Originally posted by Madimorga

It wouldn't work for me if I couldn't do it without joining a guild.  If I had to join a guild, it wouldn't be a player business, would it?  It would be a guild business, and only guild members would be able to participate.

I agree with this it would also need some kind of balance between the two. I would love to just run myself and maybe a few friends i find trustworthy.  But not with a whole guild like running a shipyard would proably need that kinda thing but a tavern with that would over run the little guys.

Yeah.  You ever seen a guild get a guild city built, then reorganize?  And by reorganize, I mean kick all its non-core members?  I have. 

Glad I wasn't a member of that guild, because I would have been tempted to hunt down the officers and guild leader and have a quiet word with them.  Maybe see if I could get them to listen to reason.  Everyone listens to reason. 

Originally posted by Madimorga

Originally posted by kylekbb

Originally posted by Madimorga

It wouldn't work for me if I couldn't do it without joining a guild.  If I had to join a guild, it wouldn't be a player business, would it?  It would be a guild business, and only guild members would be able to participate.

I agree with this it would also need some kind of balance between the two. I would love to just run myself and maybe a few friends i find trustworthy.  But not with a whole guild like running a shipyard would proably need that kinda thing but a tavern with that would over run the little guys.

 

Yeah.  You ever seen a guild get a guild city built, then reorganize?  And by reorganize, I mean kick all its non-core members?  I have. 

 

Glad I wasn't a member of that guild, because I would have been tempted to hunt down the officers and guild leader and have a quiet word with them.  Maybe see if I could get them to listen to reason.  Everyone listens to reason. 

I've seen stunts like that pulled, so I can definitely relate.

It could certainly work, so long as running the economy is a game and not soulless economy simulation.

Actually, I have been working closely with a comapny making an MMO due out in 2013 where I pitched this very idea.  Some of them being taken into consideration. We'll see where t goes.

It will work if done right.

First of all do player run stores really need a special part of the town (but not player run taverns). The reason for that is that it is easier for the players. Walking around in the market and looking for stuff is really not that harder than checking on the AH. If however you need to run around all town and check in all houses it gets annoying fast.

Smaller player stores should just be a market stand where the player or a hired NPC sells stuff. The larger expensive store should be a mid size house with a nice sign and who displays stuff. And then there should be trading guild houses that are close to malls.

If you do it right it wont be that much harder than going to the AH or broker, but a lot more fun.

Player run institutions are a lot harder to implement really good. I would suggest a feudal feeling for the whole thing.

A guild should be run by a high blood noble (like in Lineage) with lesser nobles around them (there also should be merchants guilds and outlaw guilds). A noble can be sworn to one higher and have 5 nobles under him or her. If a noble sever the connection with his faction leader (king or queen) he takes the guilds under him with it. A guild pay taxes to the house above them and recieve from the one under, that creates conflict and stops the game from being run by one or 2 guilds. Also guilds should have a max number of players of around 25, that also creates conflict.

Taking land from other guilds could be solved by making the guildhouses into keeps that controls certain size of lands. So a conquering guild/alliance would first have to tear down the old keep and then build a new one to hold the area and install a noble in it to get the land.

After that it is up to the king to keep the law in his kingdom. Since other guilds including merchant guilds pay taxes to their king it should be in his interest to keep the laws and hold outlaw guilds and criminal foreigners out.

That is one idea at least, you can solve it other ways as well. Problem with it is that people in guilds will have all the fun and guildless people will be close to lawless vagabonds since they don't pay taxes to any king.

Originally posted by carrie01

I would like to see a fantasy game (not a game like second life) where there are player run businesses and institutions. For instance, a player-run tavern, where you can buy a plot of land, build the tavern, hire NPCs, and use the crafting skill in cooking and brewing to supply the restaurant. Other players could then come into your tavern and buy your food and beer.

The same concept can be applied to an armoury, weapon shops, potion shops, etc

...

What do you think? Could it work? Would you play a game with these features?

It worked in the 90's - no reason that it can't work now.  I tended bar at Perianwyr Stormcrow's Serpent's Cross Tavern on the Atlantic server every Thursday night for about a year in UO. That was one of dozens of establishments that were built and run by players in that game.  Here's a list of some of them.

I wouldn't come within a hundred miles of a game that used Loke's described mechanics.  I've seen way too much shady guild goings on to ever trust them with my housing arrangements, much less my business dealings!

However, a game that allowed guilds to build cities with nobles and so on and so forth but then had a place for tinkers with their rickety little horse drawn carts to wander freely (note the emphasis) to and from would interest me.  Let the big cities and their guilds, their nobles, and their commoners trade within their city walls.  Let enterprising soloers travel from city to city, buying and selling goods where they wish.  Though certainly subject to NPC roving bandits and possibly subject to some player bandits.  Just never enough to make trade routes unprofitable.  Tricky balancing, that.

Edit:  No offense, Loke, I just don't want to go to jail for hunting down some guild leader after he kicks all his surplus members and keeps their stuff!

I used to run a tailor shop in SWG that sold a variety of clothing in a variety of rare colors, accessories, bags, kick ass swoop bikes (98% durability) and house deeds and some furniture and I completely loved it.  Master merchants could set up vendors that were people... you could pick the race you wanted and decorate your vendor in different clothing.  I made 13 million credits in under 6 months and keeping my vendors stocked and finding the best resources to craft with was a full time job.  Most fun I've ever had in a game... I was establishing a real name and rep when the NGE hit and the game collapsed.

I miss it.  I would love to find another game where I could do that again.

Well unhfortunately the OP "IS" talking about the same thing as Entropy or Second life.

I think those games get away with it because of very low poly graphics.Eve si the same thiung low poly graphics tons of empty space with very little animation.

I guess it could work in a zoned atmosphere,however what would be the purpose?it is not like there would be any realitiy,it honestly would end being exactly like Second Life.

For this to work,it would need a game thta allows players to generate the content.That wouldn't work either as we don't have the capacity or tech to go that far just yet,everything would have to be pre rendered and probably not very exciting at that.

The way i see this working in the future,is to allow players to run their own planets in a single zone ,sepcifically run by them.Once entering that zone you have to load al lthe objects/textures for tha tzone ,then dump them when leaving.or give the player the choice,some people might have a ton of storage space to store all new models and content.You could set your own rule set in that zone,and decide how rare or valuable items would be.

The bottom line is players in this genre seem to be very superficial in that they all want some valuable loot,or they will ignore that content.People are not much into hanging out and chatting unless they are arguing or sharing their Chuck Norris jokes,that nobody wants to hear.

OP, alot of the stuff you're looking for has been done in the past with the earlier MMORPGs.  But good luck in finding such gameplay with newer and upcoming titles.  Developers these days cannot even begin to comprehend gameplay that doesn't involve swinging a sword.

Originally posted by Warmaker

OP, alot of the stuff you're looking for has been done in the past with the earlier MMORPGs.  But good luck in finding such gameplay with newer and upcoming titles.  Developers these days cannot even begin to comprehend gameplay that doesn't involve swinging a sword.

Actually there are heaps of games coming out / came out that doesn't involve 'swinging a sword'.

NFS:World, Free Realms, A tale in the desert, Business Tycoon something or rather, Football Manager Online etc etc.

There is a single player version of what the OP wants.

Recettear: An Item Shops Tale

http://store.steampowered.com/app/70400/?snr=1_4_4__13

If you look beyond the anime graphics, it has a surprizingly amount of depth.

I have always thought blizzard could have added player rented vendor stalls in the capital cities.

But what would having player owned stalls in a capital city do for WoW? The crafted items are either worthless, or cost so much that the only people who would buy them are people who bought gold online or they want to set up their 10th character for raiding ASAP

I have only played Vanilla WoW. It would have worked back then.

Originally posted by Warmaker

OP, alot of the stuff you're looking for has been done in the past with the earlier MMORPGs.  But good luck in finding such gameplay with newer and upcoming titles.  Developers these days cannot even begin to comprehend gameplay that doesn't involve swinging a sword.

I think you mean "a sub group of the MMO Gamer population" and not "Developers." The developers can certainly comprehend other designs, and the MMOs are out there to prove that. Some players, however, will reject games for not being the same as what they played 10 years ago. What's worse is that they are usually the ones that are complaining the market is stagnant and lacks creativity or innovation, often referring to their ideal game with terms such as 'true' 'real' or "pure" to reinforce that is the 'right way' to make an MMO.

Play something outside the mainstream. You'll find that there are a ton of different approaches to the genre besides, orcs, swords, levels and gear changing.

Originally posted by Joliust

I have only played Vanilla WoW. It would have worked back then.

Vanilla WOW had AHs, so player stalls weren't really going to add anything even back then.

Some other form of business-running feature, like a building which you rent which automatically produces items for you as long as you keep it filled with materials, could've worked, but market stalls couldn't.

As for the other poster's crafted items comment, maybe he only played Vanilla WOW too, because throughout most of WOW (and certainly after BC) crafting has provided very solid item choices.  People get distracted by the loads of common items required to improve tradeskills, I suppose, such that they don't notice that at the end of the line there are great items to be made.

Originally posted by Omnifish

Well Second Life was built around those principles and the only thing that thrived on there was porn, so it doesn't bode well :P

I was just thinking that the Oldest Profession is the obvious business to set up...provided the game's rules and rating allow it.

And none of them will let you proselytise your way into the Second Oldest and start a cult, without getting banned.  Game companies are sensitive about religion.

Originally posted by Warmaker

OP, alot of the stuff you're looking for has been done in the past with the earlier MMORPGs.  But good luck in finding such gameplay with newer and upcoming titles.  Developers these days cannot even begin to comprehend gameplay that doesn't involve swinging a sword.

And numbers. Ever increasing numbers. And a preplanned system of connect the dots to get those ever bigger numbers.

How exciting. (...yawn...)

Originally posted by cheyane

One thing I hate about our human nature is how we all become petty tyrants given half a chance. In a game where players control things we will have an imbalance of power and then they will exploit and victimize the weak like they do in real life. I have no faith in human nature therefore I have no faith in them to be fair. In a game like that people like me who work hard and playa ccording to the ruels end up losing. No thanks I pass.