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Guild Wars 2

Guild Wars 2 

General Discussion  » MMOs with subscription fees... what are you paying for?

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337 posts found
  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 15372

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

9/30/11 12:03:58 PM#201
Originally posted by EvilGeek

 


Originally posted by Distopia


Originally posted by EvilGeek
 





GW always had a cash shop, sure it expanded as the game grew but it was there from day one (skill unlock packs for those who couldn't be bothered to play the game). At the end of the day all you have to consider is the game worth supporting? Now most FTP titles have built in road blocks so you are forced to pay if you don't want to face mammoth grind or continually unlucky rolls of a dice, freemium models have the same kind of road blocks -LOTRO's system involves a lot of grind if you want to unlock content, AoC simply denies you the full content unless you pay.
GW2 is offering you a full game. I agree that games that charge a sub should never sell content, cosmetic or not, but GW2 asks for no sub, if GW is anything to go by and looking at whats been released on GW2, my guess is that cosmetic shop items will be town clothes while your armour options are going to be equally varied from game play. So yes if you're of an RP mind you may well spend more, the question will still remain is the game worth supporting?



Like I said I don't mind the cash shop I'm not a cosmetic oriented player so again I don't mind what doesn't effect me personally. I was more or less playing devils advocate there.
As an aside, I was unaware Prophecies released with a CS? I don't remember one which says to me it wasn't intrusive, hopefully that's also the case in GW2.
 


 

I can't honestly remember how those items were accessed, a good thing, like you stated, I can't remember because it wasn't in my face. Currently the cash shop option sits at the top right of your character selection screen, big enough to be noticed but not 'in your face', I'm guessing that's the place they'll keep it, it's a logical place when your looking at characters, maybe thinking of an extra slot or costume.

Yeah nothing is worse than in AOC where it's the first thing you see when you log in, as long as it's not like that i'll have no complaints.

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  EvilGeek

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/17/08
Posts: 1240

My freedom relies on yours

9/30/11 12:09:53 PM#202


Originally posted by czekoskwigel


Originally posted by EvilGeek
 



Originally posted by Distopia




Originally posted by just1opinion

 While it's not "cosmetic" it's no different than the pay to play game that charges for expansions. You can buy WoW expansions in their online store too.  What's the difference?
 
EQ2 has had an item store for a long time.  There's nothing in it that negatively affects gameplay in my opinion.  Yes, they have some potions....big whoopedy do.  You can also drink something for a sex change....omg....alert the media.
 
Item shop PARANOIA....it's become epidemic.




I don't care about cashshops. However, do you not understand why it has become epidemic? While I don't really mind people getting an option they support (those who like CS) at the same time, there was an age where you got it all for a flat fee, either a box price or sub paid for it all. That just isn't the case today. Many miss those times and want them back, can you really blame them?
If something is in a shop it should be in the game as well, to earn while playing. If it's not players lose out on options. I don't care how you spin it, that is not a good thing. Should a cosmetic oriented player have to pay more to not look like random clone numer 200056? No they shouldn't.
 



 
GW always had a cash shop, sure it expanded as the game grew but it was there from day one (skill unlock packs for those who couldn't be bothered to play the game). At the end of the day all you have to consider is the game worth supporting? Now most FTP titles have built in road blocks so you are forced to pay if you don't want to face mammoth grind or continually unlucky rolls of a dice, freemium models have the same kind of road blocks - LOTRO's system involves a lot of grind if you want to unlock content, AoC simply denies you the full content unless you pay. GW2 is offering you a full game. I agree that games that charge a sub should never sell content, cosmetic or not, but GW2 asks for no sub, if GW is anything to go by and looking at whats been released on GW2, my guess is that cosmetic shop items will be town clothes while your armour options are going to be equally varied from game play. So yes if you're of an RP mind you may well spend more, the question will still remain is the game worth supporting?


GW2 is offering you a full game... except for all of the DLC you'll need to purchase to play the full game.  What makes you people think this game is being built any differently than every other f2p game out there?  The ONLY difference is they're making you pay up front.  And after that, they'll do everything they can to force/influence/coerce/trick you into spending money in the cash shop.  I'm not saying there's anything wrong with the cash shop, there's just clearly something wrong with those who believe that NCSoft is going to treat this game any different than the rest of their titles.  They want to squeeze every penny they can out of you, end of story.


Nope the full game will be what you buy at release, a complete personal storyline and world storyline set on a map filled with more content than the original GW released with, so YES you are getting the full game - 25 zones full of dynamic events (not static quests), hundreds of hours of content and 8 dungeons each with three different modes and a story mode, sounds like a full game to me.

Anet got a very autonomous deal when they signed to NCSoft, otherwise what would have happened to GW1 ? It wouldn't be the game it is now if it was ruled according to your take on what will happen. Anet are primarily gamers who are very aware they need to succeed financially if they want to carry on building the games they like and keep the jobs they so obviously love, seriously they are the last people I would accuse of trying to squeeze you out of every last penny.

Edit: Also please stop calling it a F2P game, it's not, the financial model is miles apart from that, it's B2P.


  evolver1972

Novice Member

Joined: 3/18/11
Posts: 1126

What is "real"? How do you define "real"?

9/30/11 12:16:46 PM#203
*snip*
 

They don't make just as much money as, say WoW, but they probably make just as much as, say LotRo before LotRo went F2P/Hybrid.  The difference is this:  Anet sold way more boxes than LotRO ever did (something like 6-8 million across all GW titles vs less than 1 million total for LotRO).  So, yes, Anet makes less per player than most sub based games.  They are a smallish company so they make do with less (innovate instead of just hire more people) than others would.  You also have to remember that if not for WoW, GW would be the largest MMO around.  That in itself would make them a lot of money.

It's not 6-8 million, it's 6 million.  And the majority of those bought the game at a huge discount.  I paid 7 bucks on Amazon and got free shipping.  The game sucked and was uninstalled quickly.

GW2 looks very promising, I hope that it's a fun game, and I hope that it's worth the 50 bucks.  I really, really wish, however, that there was enough quality/quantity of content to make it worth a sub fee.  That doesn't mean it won't be a good value, but iIt clearly isn't worth the fee, or NCSoft would be charging it. 

 

You apparently have no idea what the ideals and values of Anet are.  They purposely make games that require no sub fee and if you do even a short search you will find that Guild Wars is considered by many in the industry - critics and gamers alike - to be one of the best games out there, period. 

 

Or you're just trolling....yep, that seems a more likely idea...and I just fell off your bridge.

You apparantly have no idea that your precious Anet are a wholly owned subsidiary of NCSoft.  NCSoft will demand the same return on investment from this division as the division that produced Aion.  That means either their going to make shitloads of money off of an unholy cash shop, or they simply aren't going to be putting as much money into the developement. 

The ideals and values of Anet are to make as much money as possible so they can keep their jobs, period.  If you really believe otherwise, that's truly sad.

Yes I do know that Anet is owned by NCSoft....I have an NCSoft account so I can play Guild Wars.  Guild Wars has made NCSoft more money than any of their other games.  In fact, they use the money made from Guild Wars to finance their other excursions into the MMO world (like Aion).  All this while GW was a B2P game with a very small cosmetic cash shop.

 

The ideals of Anet are to make money (yes they are a business so they do want to make money - and I have no problem with that) while making the best MMO games on the market.  Not to make as much money as possible to keep their jobs, if that means doing what they consider to be gouging the people who play their games.

 

Crap, I just fell off your bridge again.  Damn.

You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???

Be afraid.....The dragons are HERE!

  User Deleted
9/30/11 1:42:00 PM#204
Originally posted by Slowdoves
Originally posted by MyGarona
You are paying to make Activision/Blizzard shareholders money. So thank you.

 

The highest Activision shares has ever peaked was about 17.72 and this was a year before Blizzard's merger.  Since the merger Activision/Blizzard stocks have flatlined between 11-13.

Trust me unless you bought shares between 1994-2001, there is no reall money to be made as a shareholder for them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dividend

  korent1991

Elite Member

Joined: 5/01/09
Posts: 1405

9/30/11 2:08:35 PM#205
Originally posted by Caldrin
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by Volkon
Originally posted by vesavius

What am I paying for in a sub game?

 

An active team of GMs (in theory)

Stability and maintenence (in theory)

Ongoing development (in theory).

An even playing field (in theory).

FULL access to ALL content (and, yes, Fluff IS content) that is EARNABLE by PLAYING the game (in theory).

So, basically, the stuff GW2 will provide you without a sub fee. [ In theory]

Interesting.

Remains to be seen whether or not ArenaNet can operate a AAA MMORPG on a no -sub model.

As ofhers have said, if they do pull it off, it's likely to change the landscape of MMO payment models significantly.

 


Also GW2 will probally have a shop and yeah you might not have to buy from it but to keep up with other people you will probally ahve to spend at least $10 a month or somthing.. so most people will end up paying the same amount anyway each month..

Why do you even bother posting if you're not even informed about the game's cash shop... For god sake! THE DIRECTOR OF ANET SAID IT WILL BE PURELY COSMETIC!    Noticed the words PURELY and COSMETIC there?  The same thing as they have in GW1 now, the same freaking model is going in use for GW2... If GW1 managed to be alive for so long and it provided enough money (with some minor donations from "the fond for the dark days") for GW2 to be developed for so many years (YES! They used the funds from GW1 to fund GW2 dev from the beginning since they had no seperate staff at that time [since they didn't even know if they gonna do the game or not])... Please, try to be informed if you're already bullshiting about the game's mechanic of making money...

"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life."
-------------------------------

  czekoskwigel

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/22/11
Posts: 488

Some flies are too awesome for the wall.

9/30/11 2:13:31 PM#206
Originally posted by korent1991
Originally posted by Caldrin
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by Volkon
Originally posted by vesavius

What am I paying for in a sub game?

 

An active team of GMs (in theory)

Stability and maintenence (in theory)

Ongoing development (in theory).

An even playing field (in theory).

FULL access to ALL content (and, yes, Fluff IS content) that is EARNABLE by PLAYING the game (in theory).

So, basically, the stuff GW2 will provide you without a sub fee. [ In theory]

Interesting.

Remains to be seen whether or not ArenaNet can operate a AAA MMORPG on a no -sub model.

As ofhers have said, if they do pull it off, it's likely to change the landscape of MMO payment models significantly.

 


Also GW2 will probally have a shop and yeah you might not have to buy from it but to keep up with other people you will probally ahve to spend at least $10 a month or somthing.. so most people will end up paying the same amount anyway each month..

Why do you even bother posting if you're not even informed about the game's cash shop... For god sake! THE DIRECTOR OF ANET SAID IT WILL BE PURELY COSMETIC!    Noticed the words PURELY and COSMETIC there?  The same thing as they have in GW1 now, the same freaking model is going in use for GW2... If GW1 managed to be alive for so long and it provided enough money (with some minor donations from "the fond for the dark days") for GW2 to be developed for so many years (YES! They used the funds from GW1 to fund GW2 dev from the beginning since they had no seperate staff at that time [since they didn't even know if they gonna do the game or not])... Please, try to be informed if you're already bullshiting about the game's mechanic of making money...

Actually, you're the one who is uninformed.  If you'll read back through the thread, you'll find a lovely little quote about the cash shop, including the possibility of charging for additional stories, dungeons, maps, and there's even mention of XP potions.  Sounds like a little bit more than "purely cosmetic".    How ironic that you mention more than once how uninformed someone is, when you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

"

Eric Flannum sent us a note to clarify a couple of things about their plans for Guild Wars 2 post-release content:

“We haven’t decided on what exactly we are or aren’t going to offer for money post-release. We’re open to whatever our players seem most interested in. If, after release, you guys would like more story content, more dungeons, more events, more maps or whatever, it’s something that we have to consider because ultimately making you happy is what makes us successful.  Whether we release that in DLC (like the bonus mission packs in GW1) or whether we do it through expansions (Like Eye of the North) is yet to be determined. As to whether or not there are going to be items like XP boosts available in the in game store, I can only reiterate what we’ve said before (and will continue to say,) that we’ll release details on it when they are available"

  SteeJanz

Novice Member

Joined: 8/22/11
Posts: 346

9/30/11 2:16:01 PM#207
Originally posted by czekoskwigel
snip

How about we bring some reality into this discussion...

Eric Flannum sent us a note to clarify a couple of things about their plans for Guild Wars 2 post-release content:

“We haven’t decided on what exactly we are or aren’t going to offer for money post-release. We’re open to whatever our players seem most interested in. If, after release, you guys would like more story content, more dungeons, more events, more maps or whatever, it’s something that we have to consider because ultimately making you happy is what makes us successful.  Whether we release that in DLC (like the bonus mission packs in GW1) or whether we do it through expansions (Like Eye of the North) is yet to be determined. As to whether or not there are going to be items like XP boosts available in the in game store, I can only reiterate what we’ve said before (and will continue to say,) that we’ll release details on it when they are available, and that our core philosophy of not requiring you to spend additional money to play the game and not making the game difficult or painful to play in order to encourage you to buy things from the store still stands.”

So, what do we have here... Sounds like they could be charging for more story.... for more dungeons... for more events and more maps...   Could come through DLC (microtransactions!) or expansions.

What else... oh, there might be XP boosts, they will "release details on it when they are available".  Could have easily said "No XP boosts", a claim many gw2 fanatics want to make, but no, he left that completely open as a real possibility.  That's certainly not "Costmetic  Only", as you put it.  Neither is charging for dungeons, story, maps, etc.

This is a gross misinterpretation of what Eric Flannum said.  For those of us that actually keep up on the game and are familiar with what they said in the past, they would understand.  What he means when he says that he can only "reiterate what we've said before *and will continue to say, is that there will be nothing in the game store that gives players and advantage over others and they are not entirely sure what will be available in the store.  So it doesn't mean XP boosts will be in the game or that they are thinking about it.   

It has been well know that expansions will be an additional cost to the player, just like they have always been.  Additional DLC is still up in the air but is that really the point. 

What seems to be missed by some is that there are other means to the revenue gained from a sub.  The difference is one requires the Developer to create content worth purchasing and the other requires the customer to pay for it whether or not it's worth it.   That's a big difference.  The customer having the choice. 

  czekoskwigel

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/22/11
Posts: 488

Some flies are too awesome for the wall.

9/30/11 2:19:57 PM#208
Originally posted by SteeJanz
Originally posted by czekoskwigel
snip

How about we bring some reality into this discussion...

Eric Flannum sent us a note to clarify a couple of things about their plans for Guild Wars 2 post-release content:

“We haven’t decided on what exactly we are or aren’t going to offer for money post-release. We’re open to whatever our players seem most interested in. If, after release, you guys would like more story content, more dungeons, more events, more maps or whatever, it’s something that we have to consider because ultimately making you happy is what makes us successful.  Whether we release that in DLC (like the bonus mission packs in GW1) or whether we do it through expansions (Like Eye of the North) is yet to be determined. As to whether or not there are going to be items like XP boosts available in the in game store, I can only reiterate what we’ve said before (and will continue to say,) that we’ll release details on it when they are available, and that our core philosophy of not requiring you to spend additional money to play the game and not making the game difficult or painful to play in order to encourage you to buy things from the store still stands.”

So, what do we have here... Sounds like they could be charging for more story.... for more dungeons... for more events and more maps...   Could come through DLC (microtransactions!) or expansions.

What else... oh, there might be XP boosts, they will "release details on it when they are available".  Could have easily said "No XP boosts", a claim many gw2 fanatics want to make, but no, he left that completely open as a real possibility.  That's certainly not "Costmetic  Only", as you put it.  Neither is charging for dungeons, story, maps, etc.

This is a gross misinterpretation of what Eric Flannum said.  For those of us that actually keep up on the game and are familiar with what they said in the past, they would understand.  What he means when he says that he can only "reiterate what we've said before *and will continue to say, is that there will be nothing in the game store that gives players and advantage over others and they are not entirely sure what will be available in the store.  So it doesn't mean XP boosts will be in the game or that they are thinking about it.   

It has been well know that expansions will be an additional cost to the player, just like they have always been.  Additional DLC is still up in the air but is that really the point. 

What seems to be missed by some is that there are other means to the revenue gained from a sub.  The difference is one requires the Developer to create content worth purchasing and the other requires to customer to pay for it whether or not it's worth it.   That's a big difference.  The customer having the choice. 


You can try to spin it however you want, but the fact is all of these are possibilities.  He had the chance to say "There will be no XP potions", but he specifically left that open, and it will be very easy for them to justify.  What he is saying here is, they will sell for real cash whatever the players want to buy. "We're open to whatever our players seem most interested in".  And those who are willing to spend money are the ones they're going to listen to when it comes time to stock the shelves and open up the cash shop.

I don't think i've seen any post from anyone who has "missed" that there are other means to gain revenue.  The F2P model has  been around for a while, and this is nothing more than F2P with a $50.00 entrance fee right off the bat, which essentially puts it in line with a P2P game that later turns F2P.

  korent1991

Elite Member

Joined: 5/01/09
Posts: 1405

9/30/11 2:20:11 PM#209

This topic on this forum = bullshit... There's far to many ignorants who don't even bother with watching vids and learning about the game before they piss all over it. 

If they say GW2 will cost you 20$ a month and you'd have to pay 80$ for a box but you wouldn't get nothing extra then you're getting now (because there's nothing more they can offer you since they already gave us more than any other game dev EVER did!), would you think the game is the holy crown of the mmorpgs? Because you guys think quite the opposite now, even tho the game will have NO MONTHLY fees, it will have PURELY COSMETIC cash shop, it will have GAME MECHANICS LIKE NO OTHER GAME EVER DID, and not to mention the game looks more polished now than most of the games and it's still in development.

 

There's simply too many of ppl who just heard about the game and red 3 lines of this topic and then went on with sharing their opinions and thinking they can take the words out of devs context... 

First watch all of the vids where devs are talking about the game and answering on questions and then you can act like you really know everything. 

"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life."
-------------------------------

  SteeJanz

Novice Member

Joined: 8/22/11
Posts: 346

9/30/11 2:22:16 PM#210
Originally posted by czekoskwigel
Originally posted by korent1991
Originally posted by Caldrin
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by Volkon
Originally posted by vesavius

What am I paying for in a sub game?

 

An active team of GMs (in theory)

Stability and maintenence (in theory)

Ongoing development (in theory).

An even playing field (in theory).

FULL access to ALL content (and, yes, Fluff IS content) that is EARNABLE by PLAYING the game (in theory).

So, basically, the stuff GW2 will provide you without a sub fee. [ In theory]

Interesting.

Remains to be seen whether or not ArenaNet can operate a AAA MMORPG on a no -sub model.

As ofhers have said, if they do pull it off, it's likely to change the landscape of MMO payment models significantly.

 


Also GW2 will probally have a shop and yeah you might not have to buy from it but to keep up with other people you will probally ahve to spend at least $10 a month or somthing.. so most people will end up paying the same amount anyway each month..

Why do you even bother posting if you're not even informed about the game's cash shop... For god sake! THE DIRECTOR OF ANET SAID IT WILL BE PURELY COSMETIC!    Noticed the words PURELY and COSMETIC there?  The same thing as they have in GW1 now, the same freaking model is going in use for GW2... If GW1 managed to be alive for so long and it provided enough money (with some minor donations from "the fond for the dark days") for GW2 to be developed for so many years (YES! They used the funds from GW1 to fund GW2 dev from the beginning since they had no seperate staff at that time [since they didn't even know if they gonna do the game or not])... Please, try to be informed if you're already bullshiting about the game's mechanic of making money...

Actually, you're the one who is uninformed.  If you'll read back through the thread, you'll find a lovely little quote about the cash shop, including the possibility of charging for additional stories, dungeons, maps, and there's even mention of XP potions.  Sounds like a little bit more than "purely cosmetic".    How ironic that you mention more than once how uninformed someone is, when you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

"

Eric Flannum sent us a note to clarify a couple of things about their plans for Guild Wars 2 post-release content:

We haven’t decided on what exactly we are or aren’t going to offer for money post-release. We’re open to whatever our players seem most interested in. If, after release, you guys would like more story content, more dungeons, more events, more maps or whatever, it’s something that we have to consider because ultimately making you happy is what makes us successful.  Whether we release that in DLC (like the bonus mission packs in GW1) or whether we do it through expansions (Like Eye of the North) is yet to be determined. As to whether or not there are going to be items like XP boosts available in the in game store, I can only reiterate what we’ve said before (and will continue to say,) that we’ll release details on it when they are available"

Sound's great the Developer interested in what the customer wants.  Hallelujah.

Please expound on what he said before so that I may fully understand the full context of this statement.

  czekoskwigel

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/22/11
Posts: 488

Some flies are too awesome for the wall.

9/30/11 2:28:30 PM#211
Originally posted by SteeJanz
Originally posted by czekoskwigel
Originally posted by korent1991
Originally posted by Caldrin
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by Volkon
Originally posted by vesavius

What am I paying for in a sub game?

 

An active team of GMs (in theory)

Stability and maintenence (in theory)

Ongoing development (in theory).

An even playing field (in theory).

FULL access to ALL content (and, yes, Fluff IS content) that is EARNABLE by PLAYING the game (in theory).

So, basically, the stuff GW2 will provide you without a sub fee. [ In theory]

Interesting.

Remains to be seen whether or not ArenaNet can operate a AAA MMORPG on a no -sub model.

As ofhers have said, if they do pull it off, it's likely to change the landscape of MMO payment models significantly.

 


Also GW2 will probally have a shop and yeah you might not have to buy from it but to keep up with other people you will probally ahve to spend at least $10 a month or somthing.. so most people will end up paying the same amount anyway each month..

Why do you even bother posting if you're not even informed about the game's cash shop... For god sake! THE DIRECTOR OF ANET SAID IT WILL BE PURELY COSMETIC!    Noticed the words PURELY and COSMETIC there?  The same thing as they have in GW1 now, the same freaking model is going in use for GW2... If GW1 managed to be alive for so long and it provided enough money (with some minor donations from "the fond for the dark days") for GW2 to be developed for so many years (YES! They used the funds from GW1 to fund GW2 dev from the beginning since they had no seperate staff at that time [since they didn't even know if they gonna do the game or not])... Please, try to be informed if you're already bullshiting about the game's mechanic of making money...

Actually, you're the one who is uninformed.  If you'll read back through the thread, you'll find a lovely little quote about the cash shop, including the possibility of charging for additional stories, dungeons, maps, and there's even mention of XP potions.  Sounds like a little bit more than "purely cosmetic".    How ironic that you mention more than once how uninformed someone is, when you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

"

Eric Flannum sent us a note to clarify a couple of things about their plans for Guild Wars 2 post-release content:

We haven’t decided on what exactly we are or aren’t going to offer for money post-release. We’re open to whatever our players seem most interested in. If, after release, you guys would like more story content, more dungeons, more events, more maps or whatever, it’s something that we have to consider because ultimately making you happy is what makes us successful.  Whether we release that in DLC (like the bonus mission packs in GW1) or whether we do it through expansions (Like Eye of the North) is yet to be determined. As to whether or not there are going to be items like XP boosts available in the in game store, I can only reiterate what we’ve said before (and will continue to say,) that we’ll release details on it when they are available"

Sound's great the Developer interested in what the customer wants.  Hallelujah.

Please expound on what he said before so that I may fully understand the full context of this statement.

You've highlighted my greatest fear for this game... because when he says "what the customer wants", he means, "What the greatest number of people will pay the greatest amount of money for".   That's just scary considering the amazing potential of this game.

  Zezda

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/27/09
Posts: 704

9/30/11 2:30:18 PM#212

This thread is rediculous!

 

At the end of the day you need to look at what you get with your subscription fee vs what you get for buying the GW2 box.

 

Some people are even saying that some of the stuff  on the GW1 store gave you an advantage? What rubbish is that? The only things you can buy on the GW1 store are unlocks for the PVP only characters, which you can get anyway after playing the game for only a little while, and unlocked skills from the campaigns. You still need to do the campaigns anyway to be honest so buying that really does not get you much. Some people on this thread are making it sound like it was some sort of huge advantage and it just isn't.

Now when you look at GW2 and see that there are no game changing things in the item store, thus making it no different to any sub-based game, and also see that the game itself is every bit as fleshed out in mechanics and features as you would expect from a sub-based game (and in many ways better). You then need to ask yourself why you are paying money per month to play a game that is at best on par and at worst very much inferior to a game which you do not need to pay for.

 

And I really do feel sorry for everyone who thinks the Guild Wars franchise is no different to Free-2-Play games when it comes to the item store. You have no idea at all.

  User Deleted
9/30/11 2:31:53 PM#213
Originally posted by Volkon

Great article at Gamasutra

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/37537/Opinion_Guild_Wars_2_Fights_The_Subscription_Racket.php

 

Makes you wonder what those subscription fees are really there for, besides greed that is.

 

So far, MMOs have kind of been wasting your time. 

You've got the almighty grind. Hours upon hours killing meaningless mobs to make a bar slowly tick upwards, and see your wallet grow ever fatter. You've got the endless trudging from location to location, nominally a way for them to attach the carrot of mounts to a stick protruding out of your back, but really just a way to tick off another ten minutes of your time. You've got the zen-like trance that you slip into while waiting for a battleground, waiting for a group, waiting for crafting to tick over, waiting, waiting, waiting... 

Absolutely agree. It has been a waste i realized this once i left the game whose popularity brought me into the MMO gaming world. World of Warcraft, and what gets me is they are STILL using this same long drawn out waiting game to achieve anything in game. If you don't believe me, take a look at the expansion they propose. Does it require endless dungeon runs for gear chips, does it have and require dailiy reputation grinds for five new reputations, did they finally change that horrible algrithm for loot handling so that you aren't required to run 30+ raids to get everything?

Microtransaction stores can have their evils , just look at Microsofts Age of Empires model and you will see them, but when they are done in a balance like LOTRO's stores are, and they are done in such a fashion that you aren't spending on winning the game with an instant win button, they are good things.

Not to mention that sub only games have a seriously difficult time pumping out new content, just look at RIFT. It has the record for pumping out new patches new content faster then anyone else has, yet each patch takes longer and longer why, the sub game. People in this economy can't sustain a sub for very long and so they lose subs lose revenue and have a harder time keeping people employed. It's a monster. All they need is a better revenue system and then they don't have to 1: make you wait for content 2: lose people so they can't put out content as fast as possible 3: fill the game with meaningless time wasters like dailies, gear grinds, rep grinds to keep your stipend coming in every month. 

It's math people. it's simple math.

Oh and for the people who are claiming that this is a P2W game, no one knows what the REAL LAUNCH store looks like yet because the game isn't released. And when it is released and you still claim it's a Pay 2 Win because you love following the most ignorant poster's on the web bandwagon you'll STILL BE WRONG.

if you can't wear the item as a stat changing armor or weapon item then these items in the store do not = Pay 2 Win.

  korent1991

Elite Member

Joined: 5/01/09
Posts: 1405

9/30/11 2:36:11 PM#214
Originally posted by czekoskwigel
Originally posted by korent1991
Originally posted by Caldrin
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by Volkon
Originally posted by vesavius

What am I paying for in a sub game?

 

An active team of GMs (in theory)

Stability and maintenence (in theory)

Ongoing development (in theory).

An even playing field (in theory).

FULL access to ALL content (and, yes, Fluff IS content) that is EARNABLE by PLAYING the game (in theory).

So, basically, the stuff GW2 will provide you without a sub fee. [ In theory]

Interesting.

Remains to be seen whether or not ArenaNet can operate a AAA MMORPG on a no -sub model.

As ofhers have said, if they do pull it off, it's likely to change the landscape of MMO payment models significantly.

 


Also GW2 will probally have a shop and yeah you might not have to buy from it but to keep up with other people you will probally ahve to spend at least $10 a month or somthing.. so most people will end up paying the same amount anyway each month..

Why do you even bother posting if you're not even informed about the game's cash shop... For god sake! THE DIRECTOR OF ANET SAID IT WILL BE PURELY COSMETIC!    Noticed the words PURELY and COSMETIC there?  The same thing as they have in GW1 now, the same freaking model is going in use for GW2... If GW1 managed to be alive for so long and it provided enough money (with some minor donations from "the fond for the dark days") for GW2 to be developed for so many years (YES! They used the funds from GW1 to fund GW2 dev from the beginning since they had no seperate staff at that time [since they didn't even know if they gonna do the game or not])... Please, try to be informed if you're already bullshiting about the game's mechanic of making money...

Actually, you're the one who is uninformed.  If you'll read back through the thread, you'll find a lovely little quote about the cash shop, including the possibility of charging for additional stories, dungeons, maps, and there's even mention of XP potions.  Sounds like a little bit more than "purely cosmetic".    How ironic that you mention more than once how uninformed someone is, when you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

"

Eric Flannum sent us a note to clarify a couple of things about their plans for Guild Wars 2 post-release content:

“We haven’t decided on what exactly we are or aren’t going to offer for money post-release. We’re open to whatever our players seem most interested in. If, after release, you guys would like more story content, more dungeons, more events, more maps or whatever, it’s something that we have to consider because ultimately making you happy is what makes us successful.  Whether we release that in DLC (like the bonus mission packs in GW1) or whether we do it through expansions (Like Eye of the North) is yet to be determined. As to whether or not there are going to be items like XP boosts available in the in game store, I can only reiterate what we’ve said before (and will continue to say,) that we’ll release details on it when they are available"

Dude, I don't need quotations from what he said... I KNOW EVERYTHING what he said and EVERYTHING anyone of the devs EVER said about the game. I'm playing GW1 and there isn't a day which goes by without me checking every possible GW site to see if there's something new on the topic... So don't act like you know something I don't. You could watch the videos where he talks about the exact same topic and see what he REALLY is talking about. Do you even know how does the cash shop in GW1 look like or what kind of DLC he talks about when he mentions Bonus mission packs or when he says like Eye of the North?  Do you know that this isn't different than any other SUBSCRIPTION GAME out there? He's saying that if we would want anything new they'd pack it up in a new expansion and give it to us, simple as that. And the only difference is: you buy the expansion but you don't pay the subscription. And I know devs said they will keep adding new dynamic events and contents to the game so it will never get boring. 

If it's of any help, GW1 didn't need cash shop for quite some time, and it's not expensive if you really want to enjoy additional story (but with the content GW1 and all it's expansions have it's impossible to pass everything - i'm playing for few years now and I still have contents which I didn't do yet).

"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life."
-------------------------------

  SteeJanz

Novice Member

Joined: 8/22/11
Posts: 346

9/30/11 2:36:51 PM#215
Originally posted by czekoskwigel
Originally posted by SteeJanz
Originally posted by czekoskwigel
Originally posted by korent1991
Originally posted by Caldrin
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by Volkon
Originally posted by vesavius

What am I paying for in a sub game?

 

An active team of GMs (in theory)

Stability and maintenence (in theory)

Ongoing development (in theory).

An even playing field (in theory).

FULL access to ALL content (and, yes, Fluff IS content) that is EARNABLE by PLAYING the game (in theory).

So, basically, the stuff GW2 will provide you without a sub fee. [ In theory]

Interesting.

Remains to be seen whether or not ArenaNet can operate a AAA MMORPG on a no -sub model.

As ofhers have said, if they do pull it off, it's likely to change the landscape of MMO payment models significantly.

 


Also GW2 will probally have a shop and yeah you might not have to buy from it but to keep up with other people you will probally ahve to spend at least $10 a month or somthing.. so most people will end up paying the same amount anyway each month..

Why do you even bother posting if you're not even informed about the game's cash shop... For god sake! THE DIRECTOR OF ANET SAID IT WILL BE PURELY COSMETIC!    Noticed the words PURELY and COSMETIC there?  The same thing as they have in GW1 now, the same freaking model is going in use for GW2... If GW1 managed to be alive for so long and it provided enough money (with some minor donations from "the fond for the dark days") for GW2 to be developed for so many years (YES! They used the funds from GW1 to fund GW2 dev from the beginning since they had no seperate staff at that time [since they didn't even know if they gonna do the game or not])... Please, try to be informed if you're already bullshiting about the game's mechanic of making money...

Actually, you're the one who is uninformed.  If you'll read back through the thread, you'll find a lovely little quote about the cash shop, including the possibility of charging for additional stories, dungeons, maps, and there's even mention of XP potions.  Sounds like a little bit more than "purely cosmetic".    How ironic that you mention more than once how uninformed someone is, when you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

"

Eric Flannum sent us a note to clarify a couple of things about their plans for Guild Wars 2 post-release content:

We haven’t decided on what exactly we are or aren’t going to offer for money post-release. We’re open to whatever our players seem most interested in. If, after release, you guys would like more story content, more dungeons, more events, more maps or whatever, it’s something that we have to consider because ultimately making you happy is what makes us successful.  Whether we release that in DLC (like the bonus mission packs in GW1) or whether we do it through expansions (Like Eye of the North) is yet to be determined. As to whether or not there are going to be items like XP boosts available in the in game store, I can only reiterate what we’ve said before (and will continue to say,) that we’ll release details on it when they are available"

Sound's great the Developer interested in what the customer wants.  Hallelujah.

Please expound on what he said before so that I may fully understand the full context of this statement.

You've highlighted my greatest fear for this game... because when he says "what the customer wants", he means, "What the greatest number of people will pay the greatest amount of money for".   That's just scary considering the amazing potential of this game.


You forgot to expound on what he said before or you don't know.   I will go with the latter because if you did you would have understood what he was saying.

I agree with your fear, it is valid, but I think it is only valid when you have reason to believe.  In this case, Arenanet has never giving us a reason to believe that this would happen.  For example the bonus mission pack was nothing more than a quest chain that gave you access to a weapon skin that was no more powerful than anything else. It just looked different.  So if we base it off of what we seen before, you have nothing to worry about.

  raistlinm

Novice Member

Joined: 8/23/11
Posts: 686

9/30/11 2:40:51 PM#216

Reading alot of the replies earlier many people are saying what they think they are being "charged" for which is different I think than what you are paying for.  For me I'm paying for access to a game that I enjoy playing to put it simply.  Now there are certain things I expect to get along with that experience such as customer service if I'm lucky enough that the need arises, a reasonable amount of content updates to last me for as long as I need them.

I'm glad that GW2 is exploring the options available with B2P payment model but I'm not at a point where I feel it a problem that many games offer subscription models or even the f2p's that offer an optional sub fee.  As long as the price is in line with my entertainment needs then I'm fine with it.

Now I noticed an argument that began about being able to pay sub fees for multiple games a month and while I don't have a problem with someone who feels like they want to try every game that comes out I don't feel this way so have a hard time understanding this problem other than to say that I found free trials often have alleviated any concerns I had about games I was on the fence about.

  Madimorga

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/26/10
Posts: 1993

9/30/11 3:02:15 PM#217
Originally posted by czekoskwigel
 

"somehow manage to suck despite the reviews, the interviews, and the hype".... Have you not paid attention to MMO's for the past 5 years?  Have you not seen time and time again that games do, in fact, end up sucking more often than not. 

Your "better" payment model is not better for all.   For everyone who doesn't buy from the cash shop, someone else has to be there spending enough to make up for it.  That's your "better" payment model, a bunch of people freeloading.

 

Of course I've seen it, I'm only a couple of MMO failures from quitting the genre for good, and I've been playing for a decade.  I can't find anything that I can settle happily in with for a few years anymore, and I'm not interested in hopping from MMO to MMO anymore, paying $50 a pop for the game, $15 for the sub, $50 for expansions.  No thanks, I'm done.  Even without the sub, a $50 game is too costly if the game can't even hold my interest for a month.  That's a whole lot more than $15, isn't it?

 

I hope Guild Wars 2 will be a game I can enjoy for years, and The Secret World, too.  If neither of those are, I don't think I'll ever spend money on another MMO, no matter how good it looks, no matter how much other players say they love it.  I'm sick of boring quest grinds and yucky communities (some are better than others, though, I admit it) and most of all, I'm sick of walking away in less than a month from a game I bought hoping to spend years with.

I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.

~Albert Einstein

  Dream_Chaser

Novice Member

Joined: 4/14/11
Posts: 1054

9/30/11 3:51:43 PM#218
Originally posted by Ikeda

Keep in mind that a LOT of server bandwidth is SAVED by having instances outside of towns.  I'm not saying this is an excuse but can you imagine the bandwidth of WoW where you can be randomly running from IF to Wetlands and meeting up with people randomly?  Does NOT happen in GW.

  1. I like numbered lists.
  2. Guild Wars 2 is not instanced at all, no more so than any other MMORPG.
  3. ArenaNet have preemptively debunked your post by saying that instances or no instances makes little difference, it's all down to server efficiency, and instantiation of content had no impact on that.
 
Originally posted by Esidar

I wonder if there will be trial, because so far, I had to pay retail prices for ArenaNet games just to play for a week or two [...]

Oh rly?

You can't blame ArenaNet for your lack of GoogleFu.

Originally posted by vesavius

An active team of GMs (in theory)

In theory, yes, but GMs have never been able to keep up with game populations in any game I've played. In fact, in the vast majority, the GM support was no different in paid games than in free to play games. And the best GM support I've ever had was in League of Legends, which... uh, didn't have a subscription, look at that.

Stability and maintenence (in theory)

This never pans out. World of Warcraft had entire days down, and many MMORPGs I've played have done this too. I can think of so many instances of an MMORPG having to have 'given me a free day/two days/week' due to down time. There's plenty of news out there about this too if you search. So subscriptions don't give us that, either.

Ongoing development (in theory)

This is a bit of a silly reason, though. Let's say that your MMORPG (Ex: World of Warcraft) has a raid dungeon added in every three months (which is about right for that game), now  you're paying 3 x $10 or thereabouts. That's $30 for your raid dungeon. My MMORPG (Ex: Champions Online) has just added a new mission pack for $5, my mission pack has more content in it than your raid, since they have to make it worthwhile in order to be enticing to buyers.

An even playing field (in theory)

In MMORPGs, balance is a myth. It'll never happen, free to play MMORPGs and subscription based alike have undergone extensive and ongoing profession revisions in order to achieve the holy grail of an even playing field, but it never happens. Examples: Champions Online, Guild Wars, Warhammer Online, World of Warcraft, et al.

There's always going to be imbalance, the only thing they can do is watch out for flavour of the month builds and nerf the stuff that gets too out of hand, and buff the stuff that no one uses. It's an ongoing process, it is in free to play games as much as in subscription games. You can pick any game, free to play or subscription, and you'll notice frequent patches doing just that. Team Fortress 2 is a great example of a free game doing just that.

FULL access to ALL content (and, yes, Fluff IS content) that is EARNABLE by PLAYING the game (in theory)

And yet you don't get that at all. Not even remotely. Even games with subscriptions have had cash shops, and as time goes on it's becoming more prevalent. Even the premiere example of a subscription MMORPG--World of Warcraft--has a cash shop in which it sells fluff. You just can't get away from this. This isn't 2003 any more. So whether you pay a subscription or not is irrelevant, because most of the time you'll be dealing with a subscription and a cash shop, just as was the case in Champions Online and City of Heroes before they went free to play.

My replies are in red.

Conclusion: Subscriptions are a massive con, people are becoming less gullible/naive, and free to play/buy to play is the future.

Originally posted by Gajari

Sorry you were so easily swayed by this article, but don't - for even a SECOND - think that F2P games are backed by developers that are in any way less 'greedy'.  Why you believe paying for a service at $15/month that you are gonna spend countless hours on is greedy, though, is beyond me.

This is like shooting fish in a barrel.

Sure it's greedy.

Take a look at Champions Online: In Champions Online, you have access to all of the content zones, you have access to loads of free archetypes, lots of free costume pieces, and the only things that you're really charged for are either services (more character slots), premium classes (which are at a nominal fee), and fluff items (new costume pieces).

In fact, you could complete all the content in Champions Online, from level 1 to the highest level of 40, and all the end-game content... without paying a penny/cent/what have you!! Yes, you read that right.

Yes, subscriptions are a massive con. He might have been swayed easily by the article, but you're no less gullible.

Originally posted by SaintViktor

It helps pay for developer salaries and other employees throughout the company.

That's what box sales/cash shop fluff does. The subscription is just free candy on top. And that doesn't go to the developers at all, that money goes to the top brass and the shareholders. It's a form of pocket-lining. Don't try to hypnotise yourself into believing any different, you're just helping an already well off management person/shareholder to buy his next car.

The first page was all I needed, really.

Geez... talk about thee self-brainwashed masses. :P You don't need a conman to talk sexy to yoou in order to get you to drop your wallet, you'll just do it to yourselves.

  stayBlind

Novice Member

Joined: 4/19/06
Posts: 509

9/30/11 4:07:16 PM#219
Originally posted by Elidien
Originally posted by just1opinion
Originally posted by Elidien
Originally posted by Wharg0ul
Originally posted by vesavius

What am I paying for in a sub game?

 

An active team of GMs (in theory)

Stability and maintenence (in theory)

Ongoing development (in theory).

An even playing field (in theory).

FULL access to ALL content (and, yes, Fluff IS content) that is EARNABLE by PLAYING the game (in theory).

This.

And as I'm fond of saying, the average MMO monthly sub is $15.00

That's fifty cents per day.

If you can't afford that, stop playing so many games and get a job.

This.

$15.00 is NOTHING and if you cannot afford it, go get a damn job and stop gaming.  Its simple as that.

I cannot even buy myself a decent dinner for $15. My wife and I can play an MMO for 30 days for the cost of $1 per day. The last time we went to dinner and a movie (3-4 hours worth of entertainment), we spent over $80. The last nice dinner we had was over $90! But she and I can have unlimited access to ALL content in a game, realistically play for well over 100+ hours a month if we wanted and all that for $15.....its a no-brainer to me.

In addition games that have fully or are partially funded by a cash shop tend to have other issues as well. From my experience, cash shop games have worse communities, more drama, etc... Example A: LOTRO before and after.

Its just the classic argument of people not thinking beyond the tip of their own noce and understanding why someone likes something they do not. 

 

 

You're either very well off financially,  you live with Mommy and Daddy still,  or you actually ARE married, but your wife is the one who writes out (or pays online) all the bills every month.  Because no one with any amount of common sense or responsibilities in life, would say "$15.00 is NOTHING...."   That's just ridiculous.  Now, I'm not saying it's a fortune or anything, but to say it's NOTHING proves you don't know much in the way of costs and paying bills.  Furthermore, for my family gaming will cost 30-45 dollars a month since there are 3 of us, so it's not a matter of 15 bucks, but a question of priorities and let's see....do we want Showtime or Netflix or gaming?  It requires, at least for US.....making a choice.....because 15 dollars IS SOMETHING.

 

Cocky privileged attitudes just reek, if you ask me.  If you're so well to do that 15 dollars is nothing to you, that's fine, but don't make it a declaration for the world as if 15 bucks should be "nothing" to EVERYONE.  That's just arrogant and ignorant.

Edit: You missed my point entirely. Compared to other forms of entertainment (dinner, movies, etc....), paying $15 a month for an MMO is dirt cheap. Sure $15 is still money but its a lot, LOT cheaper than most alternatives.

Gamers who play games with cash shops statistically pay MORE per month for their games than gamers do who pay a sub fee. So accordingly, $15 is nothing and I guarantee the average gamer will spend more than $15 a month on Guild Wars 2due to the cash shop and frequency of expansions that they will have to release to make a profit.

Right...because no P2P game has expansions that you have to buy....

 

This was the same argument my friends used when GW came out. They all played WoW, and told me that I would have to buy all those expansions instead of a sub fee. Well look where WoW is now...

 

Anyways, I always thought that sub fees were there to fund content development...but they aren't (in most cases).

Little forum boys with their polished cyber toys: whine whine, boo-hoo, talk talk.

  Robokapp

Elite Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4530

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

9/30/11 4:09:54 PM#220

wow and eve for me.

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