Originally posted by Icewhite

 

If you guys would ever get together and actually define "sandbox", it'd make definately make discussion of the topic a little easier.

Simplest I can offer:  A sandbox is a virtual reality environment where characters enter, take on a life of their own, and interact with the world as a participant.  Sandbox games provide "tools" for interacting with the world, and rarely contain much in the way of developer provided storyline content.  Their design tends to naturally promote role playing where players contribute content to the environment through their characters.

Sandbox, all the world's a stage.  The drama that unfolds is through player participation.  Heros are born and die, crafters eek out their existence, farmers gather from the land and its inhabitants, thieves and criminals prey on victims while trying to avoid the law, political alliances form, and great battles are fought by rivals.

How's that Ice?

Originally posted by Adamantine

Originally posted by Quizzical

Vanguard as a sandbox game?  Seriously?  Why not just declare WoW to be a sandbox game and say that proves that sandboxes are popular?

Vanguard is the only game on your list that I've played, and while it's not really a proverbial WoW clone, it's closer to being one than a majority of the MMORPGs that I've played.  Now, that's partially a statement on which particular games I've played.  But if Vanguard is a sandbox, then I have no clue what the term means anymore.  I thought sandboxes were supposed to be a lot more open-ended.

Err ?

Vanguard is NOT a WoW clone.

Its an EQ clone.

Just like WoW.

Vanguard sadly has adopted some typical idiotic WoW concepts after its release (soulbound items, fishing), but WoW did not play much of a role during its development.

I agree that Vanguard is more of an EQ clone.  Not many people realize during Vanguard's beta it was INSANE to level (by todays standards).  It was much closer to EQ leveling and there was a grind to it (not a lot of questing, more dungeon mob killing to gain XP).

Originally posted by Excalaber2

*EDIT* Also the problem with the newer attempts at sandbox is that they all seem to think it has to be FPS-style or has to be built with PvP in mind from the ground up then tack on sandbox features later.  No, create a game with vast amounts of things to do first.  Have a good design and make sure features such as tailoring (for cosmetic clothing) are in at launch. As well as detailied player housing.  Give players a large amount of things to do when they "max out their chars"....then go back and figure out how to max out characters and balance them without allowing huge skill level differences to become  OP. Then go back and make sure weaponns and armor fit into the game without overpowering anything.  Then, at the end of the day...you have a unique game with promising features and spend the end of the development cycle on balance.  Otherwise, you get a game where people get it at launch...max their characters....and realize there is nothing to do and PvP is sucky and PvE almost non-existant. Ahh...what do I know :)

I agree that the FPS-style requirement can be an issue (when the devs can't pull it off), although I like that style myself, in any game.  It spices up the pvp and pve.  To your next point, again, I agree, too many sandbox devs are hell bent on shoving pvp down everyone's throats first and foremost, and sometimes to the exclusion of all else.

I also agree that sandbox games often release incomplete, but I don't think it's because their developers want it that way.  It's simply that the rising pricetag of developing an MMO forces early, incomplete releases, and that's a crying shame.  Until and unless the big investors get thoroughly burned by continuing to back only well-worn themeparks, indy sandboxes will release in unfinished states, or won't release at all.  When and if the big backers finally get the message that they're not going to be able to keep milking the themepark cash cow, they'll either give up on the genre all together (a scary thought), or they'll invest in developers capable of actual innovation and hopefully the creation of fun games.

Originally posted by ActionMMORPG

Originally posted by Icewhite

 

If you guys would ever get together and actually define "sandbox", it'd make definately make discussion of the topic a little easier.

 

Simplest I can offer:  A sandbox is a virtual reality environment where characters enter, take on a life of their own, and interact with the world as a participant.  Sandbox games provide "tools" for interacting with the world, and rarely contain much in the way of developer provided storyline content.  Their design tends to naturally promote role playing where players contribute content to the environment through their characters.

 

Sandbox, all the world's a stage.  The drama that unfolds is through player participation.  Heros are born and die, crafters eek out their existence, farmers gather from the land and its inhabitants, thieves and criminals prey on victims while trying to avoid the law, political alliances form, and great battles are fought by rivals.

 

How's that Ice?

Bro,

Where can I d/l this game?? lol  =)

Originally posted by Excalaber2

Originally posted by ActionMMORPG

Originally posted by Icewhite

 

If you guys would ever get together and actually define "sandbox", it'd make definately make discussion of the topic a little easier.

 

Simplest I can offer:  A sandbox is a virtual reality environment where characters enter, take on a life of their own, and interact with the world as a participant.  Sandbox games provide "tools" for interacting with the world, and rarely contain much in the way of developer provided storyline content.  Their design tends to naturally promote role playing where players contribute content to the environment through their characters.

 

Sandbox, all the world's a stage.  The drama that unfolds is through player participation.  Heros are born and die, crafters eek out their existence, farmers gather from the land and its inhabitants, thieves and criminals prey on victims while trying to avoid the law, political alliances form, and great battles are fought by rivals.

 

How's that Ice?

Bro,

Where can I d/l this game?? lol  =)

Xsyon, but even though it's been released for several months, it isn't finished.  Last I checked, farming wasn't in yet, either.  Nor is a satisfying criminal system, and great battles are also a thing of the future.

Originally posted by luckturtz

 

Sandbox games out

Mortal Online,Fallen Earth,Darkfall,Earthrise,Vanguard,Ryzom,EvE,Wurm,Perpetum,Maginobi,Xyson

Sandbox gaming being made

Archage,Dawntide,The Repouplation,Origins,Embers of Careus

I am pretty sure i forgot some but the point remains the same,Complainers have selective vision when "they say omg they aren't making any sandboxes" or "omg they aren't making like they use" which is BS.

Here is the catch one game on the two list,Vanguard(which some people won't call a sandbox but is probably the most old school game) is made by support by major company all the rest are Indie games.All the people who complain about Sandbox games or "MMO aren't same" this what they are really saying

"I want major companies to spend 100 million on a game that will probably be a niche game,I am ignoring all the small games with the playing style i want because i want huge game support by big company"

I understand it somewhat but does not make any sense i see people going WoW style game suck and keep trying them,Then i see them say i wish there was a game that has a large open world(vanguard),deep game play(Vanguard) interesting classes(vanguard),great crafting(Vanguard) good player housing(vanguard).There is a game on the market that has everything you want why aren't you playing it? The funny thing is i would bet money if SOE closed Vanguard,wait six months released a new game called Ranguard which looks mighty familiar to Vanguard,that game would be huge success.

They are make games you like they are indie games not by companies so they have lesser resources which normal mean inferior graphics but playstyle you are looking for right now.Will you ever get one of those 100 million games to be a sandbox,Maybe 38 studios is making a game they made sandbox rpg single player game their mmo might be influnence by that,EverQuest Next might go back to more of its roots,You might get the perfect storm of IP and gamestyle like SWG before the change.

Please stop being blind though They never stop making sandboxes or strong virtual world mmos,They just became minority instead of majority when Ultima,EQ and others rule the market and they are now being made by small companies who can afford to risk to make a niche game.The mmo market is so big today they is more than enough room for a free to play games,sub games,Sandboxes game,theme park games,Action mmo,tab targeting mmo,etc..MMO should not be one style of game or one style of pricing...I am curious to what going to happen when Archage comes out which will have great graphics with huge budget..You will here people say it is not sandboxy enough...I don't like Asian art style.I am not saying to settle for bad games but please stop pretending that you are not being present with enough of fair choices of gaming for your game style.

Just like when a kid says, "There is nothing on TV"..  they mean there is nothing GOOD on TV.

If you don't understand & want to ridicule people for wanting something so simple as modern  Ultima...  which no developer can seem to make, because they don't understand open world gaming. Just profits and catch phrases to sell their game.

ArchAge will be the first shot in 11 years, of a true open world sandbox. Vanguard was close... but skimped on many things.

FPS does not work in a RPG bcs it makes the RPG part redundant.
A good mmorpg must be playable for players with a broad range of connections, the traditional rpg model is much better a fit for people playing with pings from 50 to 500 while a fps mmo bcs of its gamemechanics rules out anyone with a ping above 100.
Nobody plays a rpg and levels up his toon the toon skills to be beaten down by a bad connection.
To have a fair pvp minigame for example you would have to set all players to the ping of the slowest connected player and nobody will accept that.

FPS mmos be a whole new genre that may contain parts of adventure and action games but no rpg system and will still only be playable for the people with the better pings -> Hello Little Niche!

Originally posted by Excalaber2

 

Bro,

Where can I d/l this game?? lol  =)

You tell me and we'll both know.  From what I understand that discription pretty much fits with UO.

As for anything recent, DF, MO and Xsyon are all trying, or at least sort of trying.

I don't know how much sand "player tools" Saga of Ryzom has nor do I know how far it leans toward themepark.

Archeage (spelling?) seems to be headed that way but who knows when that'll get here.

Originally posted by Blutmaul

FPS does not work in a RPG bcs it makes the RPG part redundant.
A good mmorpg must be playable for players with a broad range of connections, the traditional rpg model is much better a fit for people playing with pings from 50 to 500 while a fps mmo bcs of its gamemechanics rules out anyone with a ping above 100.
Nobody plays a rpg and levels up his toon the toon skills to be beaten down by a bad connection.
To have a fair pvp minigame for example you would have to set all players to the ping of the slowest connected player and nobody will accept that.

FPS mmos be a whole new genre that may contain parts of adventure and action games but no rpg system and will still only be playable for the people with the better pings -> Hello Little Niche!

I don't know enough about all the technological ins and outs, but that sounds like I should stop blaming dev teams for failing to pull this off and blame them instead for even trying when it can't be done (yet, anyway).  Which actually makes me sad.  I don't want to switch entirely to XBox for gaming, not to mention upgrade to the latest and greatest and by far most expensive ISP plan.  But I do like fps style combat, even though I'm old and not very good at it!

Originally posted by ActionMMORPG

Originally posted by Icewhite

 

If you guys would ever get together and actually define "sandbox", it'd make definately make discussion of the topic a little easier.

 

Simplest I can offer:  A sandbox is a virtual reality environment where characters enter, take on a life of their own, and interact with the world as a participant.  Sandbox games provide "tools" for interacting with the world, and rarely contain much in the way of developer provided storyline content.  Their design tends to naturally promote role playing where players contribute content to the environment through their characters.

 

Sandbox, all the world's a stage.  The drama that unfolds is through player participation.  Heros are born and die, crafters eek out their existence, farmers gather from the land and its inhabitants, thieves and criminals prey on victims while trying to avoid the law, political alliances form, and great battles are fought by rivals.

 

How's that Ice?

You are far overcomplicating a very simple term. You even added possible result of use (yellow) as part of your defintion of it.

Sandbox design is the addition of tools and toys. Themepark design is creation of scripted entertainment. Every MMO has some of each. It really is that simple, guys. So many of the defintions created here are pile-ons of personal wishlists and desired outcomes, both of which have nothing to do with what the actual definitions.

Originally posted by Madimorga

Originally posted by Excalaber2

Originally posted by ActionMMORPG

Originally posted by Icewhite

 

If you guys would ever get together and actually define "sandbox", it'd make definately make discussion of the topic a little easier.

 

Simplest I can offer:  A sandbox is a virtual reality environment where characters enter, take on a life of their own, and interact with the world as a participant.  Sandbox games provide "tools" for interacting with the world, and rarely contain much in the way of developer provided storyline content.  Their design tends to naturally promote role playing where players contribute content to the environment through their characters.

 

Sandbox, all the world's a stage.  The drama that unfolds is through player participation.  Heros are born and die, crafters eek out their existence, farmers gather from the land and its inhabitants, thieves and criminals prey on victims while trying to avoid the law, political alliances form, and great battles are fought by rivals.

 

How's that Ice?

Bro,

Where can I d/l this game?? lol  =)

 

Xsyon, but even though it's been released for several months, it isn't finished.  Last I checked, farming wasn't in yet, either.  Nor is a satisfying criminal system, and great battles are also a thing of the future.

Yeah, I don't know about Xyson.  It seems really cool but I'm very scared about the lack of combat.  It gives off a feeling of not giving "authenticity" to anything else.  LIke there should always be good combat to back it up.  I made cool armor, I want good combat.  I make awesome weapons, I want to use them in good combat.  I tailored clothing to look cool and wear it over my armor --> I want to be able to see my character look cool in combat.  Otherwise it becomes like.....customizing an avatar.

Am I correct in assuming Xyson feels a bit like minecraft?

im waiting for criss angels new mmo mindfreak

Originally posted by Excalaber2

Yeah, I don't know about Xyson.  It seems really cool but I'm very scared about the lack of combat.  It gives off a feeling of not giving "authenticity" to anything else.  LIke there should always be good combat to back it up.  I made cool armor, I want good combat.  I make awesome weapons, I want to use them in good combat.  I tailored clothing to look cool and wear it over my armor --> I want to be able to see my character look cool in combat.  Otherwise it becomes like.....customizing an avatar.

Am I correct in assuming Xyson feels a bit like minecraft?

It is a bit like Minecraft in some ways.  The lack of combat is an issue, the lack of pve is an issue as well.  It's just not finished yet, and that's why I'm not currently playing it either.  But it does aspire to be what you seem interested in.  It's a game that I'd really love to see attract the appropriate investors and then get taken back into beta (or even alpha, depending on the coding issues), then released again in a polished, complete state. 

Originally posted by luckturtz

Originally posted by precious328

 

Moreover, you seem to making fun of the titles you have listed. Interesting. How about we talk about your smashing theme park success stories, e.g., Age of Conan, Vanguard (theme park), Warhammer Online, Star Trek Online, DC Universe, Champions Online, Aion, etc.

I don't disagree with your points,I keep on looking for "the Oblivion of MMO" Sandbox game which has strong story elements and themepark but gives the freedom to do what you want.I want both not either in one direction but with that said they should options people who want either direction.

I was not make fun idie games but if want to compare their success to games mention fine

AoC is a failure but AoC once had 700,000 subs,Also went F2P and got 300,000 players in one month.Aoc was released to early

Vanguard was release to early has been criminal mismanaged,Vanguard was failures is not because of the game itself.I said it before in my post,SOE can take Vanguard off the market repackage as another game,It will make huge money.MMO players rarely go back to games that fail at launch.

War had 800,000 subs,War was released to early

Champions and Startrek-Have low budgets if you think cryptic spend huge amount of money those you are crazy.It is clear the city of heroes gaming engine being used those games did cost much to make.They probably made back what cost to make those game on opening day sales.

DC Online-Another mismanged game(suprise suprise SOE again).It didn't take rocket scientist to see that a game on console with sub fee isn't a good idea.

Aion- 3.5 million subs at one point.2.5 million in Asia,Aion was and is a success in asia but fail in the US.

I am not making fun of Indie games but tell me which is the better investment for a big company.Make a game that attracts between 800,000 to 2.5 million gamers and figure out to how to keep those gamers or Make a game that starts out 100k and slow works itself up 300k.Companies are failing at retention which is why Rifts has huge retention plan and SWtor has retention plan.The number have not been bad for themeparks they just fail holding customers and in most case the games weren't finished at release.

My point remains if you spending 100 million a game,your best choice is the WoW model if you are trying to make your money back.People like to Critize AoC or Aion but made tons of money up front and they are still around making a profit at some point if they haven't already they will make back what it cost to make the game.While SOE and EA is big enough companies to eat the cost failures,So as long War,Vanguard and DC online are making profits they are fine.Gamers need to separate emotions from  buiness.In terms of pure buiness theme park so far have proven to be a better choice.Which is important to understand why companies keep make themepark style games

 

Why do people think Aion is a failure in the west? It's the second most played MMORPG in North America. People consider it a failure because even though it's the 2nd most popular, it's an asian MMO and in North America it doesn't even scratch 10% of what WoW has. However thats just a tribute to how big WoW is compared to it's competition.

Originally posted by Agricola1

I guess what they mean to say is "there's no AAA sandbox MMORPGs". All the ones you listed above that have been released are in decline, shite or being shutdown soon.

AAA Game Costs + Niche Audience = Bad Idea

The games which are in decline or being shutdown are experiencing precisely why it's a bad idea to develop an expensive MMORPG for a niche audience.

This genre is pure shit and has been pure shit for nearly a decade. If only the developers didn't make games with the intention of making money. We probably wouldn't see as many games like WoW out there. Who cares though? This genre continues to decline every year.

You guys remember when we all thought Warhammer was going to be our savior? Or Aoc? Pretty funny. Oh well, we can hope on the next couple of titles coming out next year. I, however, won't be getting my hopes up.

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by Agricola1

I guess what they mean to say is "there's no AAA sandbox MMORPGs". All the ones you listed above that have been released are in decline, shite or being shutdown soon.

AAA Game Costs + Niche Audience = Bad Idea

The games which are in decline or being shutdown are experiencing precisely why it's a bad idea to develop an expensive MMORPG for a niche audience.

And again, this is where gamers would really benefit from knowing what devs, investors, and marketing firms know about those numbers.  What is defined as niche?  How many interested players are required before an idea can be considered mainstream?  What is the actual range of AAA game costs, including interest rates and post development maintenance?  In other words, what is the lowest and highest breakeven number possible for a game categorized as niche?  What are the average behavior patterns of gamers and groups of gamers over many years?  How accurate have estimations of all of the above by marketing firms proven in the past?  Can they even be relied on, or might we take them completely by surprise on a regular basis?

Originally posted by Tenk575

You guys remember when we all thought Warhammer was going to be our savior? Or Aoc

I do remember that happening.  War, AOC, Aion, Fallen Earth, Allods, Runes of Magic.  All were supposed to "save" the genre.

Shortly after that, it was super-hero games.  They seem to die quicky too.

Then STO was going to conquer EVE.  *chuckles*

Originally posted by Tenk575

This genre is pure shit and has been pure shit for nearly a decade. If only the developers didn't make games with the intention of making money. We probably wouldn't see as many games like WoW out there. Who cares though? This genre continues to decline every year.

You guys remember when we all thought Warhammer was going to be our savior? Or Aoc? Pretty funny. Oh well, we can hope on the next couple of titles coming out next year. I, however, won't be getting my hopes up.

As gamers' evolve and mature, more and more will notice how the very essence of the genre has been nothing but corporate crap.

Perhaps the future will be different but it appears that what ideas and visions developers' have, it'll always be controlled in the end to what makes the most revenue, in the shortest amount of time.

it's sad that the real innovations in the genre never see the light of day, thanks to the suits crunching numbers.

Yup. After a while you just sort of give up hope.