and i want to add that the typical client based f2p mmo, those we also know as 'low budget asia grinders', which are finacially dependent on their cashshop and pay to win factor do have a hard stand on the western market and a lot of them closed within 6-12 months after release, especially since western high budget mmorpgs (f.e. lotro, eqII, ddo etc) went 'f2p'.

I think f2p is a good model but nearly no one has done it properly for MMORPGs. LoL has done it perfectly for the MOBA genre. HoN followed their lead and I wouldn't be one bit surprised if Steam did the same with dota2.

Currently the only acceptable f2p mmo out there is probably ArenaNet and that is only because I pay for a product that I know is stable and truly free after initial $$$. Most AAA titles that have or are going F2P are really going FDRC(free download restricted content). Frankly I want to get lost in the world. I want to have fun with my friends. I want to be able to go where ever I want in a mmo. I don't want to hit a wall that says "stop buy X content pack for Y coins! to go on!".

I think the F2P model in MMOs inherently taints the entire experience. I like the option to have a subscription but if someone just makes a good mmo and doesn't restrict what I can do ill happily spend money on silly crap. I did it with LoL when I didn't think I'd ever touch a cash shop. I played their game for month before throwing money into it. "Hell I have played this game for awhile and I really like it" *boom Riot Games get 35 dollars for skins and silly things*.

If a MMO can entertain me enough without the thought of eventually having to pay for something in the back of my mind then I openly welcome it and if I enjoy it I will throw money down just to support a company that gives me entertainment.

Dying and garbage games go f2p, or actually p2w. Just how much quaity had a shite called STO to ask monthly sub besides cash shop? Or CO. Or AoC. Or Lotro after pulling out all development. DDO was still born anyway. I'm not speaking about Asian turds, those are too horrible. Just stop this p2w hype because there aren't f2p games - only sub par games that are too bad to ask sub milking their customers, selling items that may or may not put tiny bit of fun into the otherwise bad game.

Originally posted by Coman

Originally posted by Lanfea

but cashshops with tradable items are a no go for me and should be for you too. why? because in my opinion they create and support a two class system of players - the rich and the poor (don't take this too literal). for example: in game XYZ the best gear can be crafted and are worth 100k gold, to get 100k you have to spend at least 25 hr of grinding in the game, your character needs at least 4 items. so 'the poor' contributed 100 hrs of work to get the gear, 'the rich' took 5 minutes to buy items in the cashshop worth 50 €, sold them within an hour on the ingame market and then bought the same gear. 100 hrs of work in the real world does have an average value of ~1000 € after taxes (western industrial countries) ... well, i guess you can see my point. it would be acceptable if cashshop items are binded to your account, non tradable, but still would create a two class system.

 

the term 'f2p' is one big surprise bag, looks really good, but you don't know whats inside.

I do not understand this. I do not see the problem and fully understand why people prefer to play a game (assuming the grind is fun) instead of spending there hard worked money. F2P gives you this choice to do so.

its not so easy, coman. 'the rich', is the typical casual gamer. hes the maintarget of the companies, hes the one who is the financial backup of the game and keep it running. so a company is eager to ensure that he can reach and get everything without spending time with grinding (rarely fun) and for a reasonable amount of real money. the poor, the grinders, are for this company very welcomed unpaid employees, important to support, provide and entertain the paying customers like mr. casual gamer. you're right when you say they have a choice, but lets be realistic: mr casual gamer would not spend his 1-2 hr freetime mmo playing per day with boring grinding with the goal to have the top quality gear after 2 months. and besides the 'grind factor' there is also the social factor: if you don't want to be a victim you need this gear for pvp or without this gear you would be a ineffective for our raidgroup.

and i'm guilty to use this mechanism. in aion i calculated how long it will take me to get this and that equipment, how much ingame currency i need if i would buy it in the auctionhouse and how much real money i have to spend to get it .... well, 15 € against 4 weeks and 2-3 hrs a day ... i decided to spend the real money after fighting with myself for an hour. but never again, it was an act of violence against my own principles, i was weak and ashamed of myself.  principles, a funny thing, and something that comes in play everytime a debate started about f2p - p2p - b2p.

one last thought: do we really need a two class society in mmo(rp)gs, in virtual worlds in which we should relax, have fun, socialize without prejudices and forget about the real world? 

Originally posted by Sparka

F2P is geared towards women, women love to shop.

 

I'm just going to play D3 and GW2, you girls can keep your F2P "games".

The funny thing is, as much as I love GW2, that so called 'buy to play' is just 'free to play' that charges you for the initial box.

GW2 will still have a cash shop that will sell fluff and content, the same as GW1, and exactly the same as other 'F2P' titles we see.

The 'B2P is better then F2P' statement is a myth, except for maybe that B2P has the advantage of not attracting the constantly whining entitled freeb crowd because they won't spend the money on a box.

Originally posted by vesavius

The 'B2P is better then F2P' statement is a myth, except for maybe that B2P has the advantage of not attracting the constantly whining entitled freeb crowd because they won't spend the money on a box.

Funny, but that in itself seems pretty good to me.  You may have just answered the big question about B2P.

Originally posted by ActionMMORPG

Originally posted by vesavius

The 'B2P is better then F2P' statement is a myth, except for maybe that B2P has the advantage of not attracting the constantly whining entitled freeb crowd because they won't spend the money on a box.

 

Funny, but that in itself seems pretty good to me.  You may have just answered the big question about B2P.

Nothing 'funny' in it... I mentioned it is an important consideration because it deserves mentioning. Yep, it def is a good selling point, but the folks that make out that it's more then that need to take a closer look.

I personally feel that F2P is crap. It is a bad business model that idiots fall for. Sorry, but its true. All they do is nickel and dime you to death to do anything in their sub-par game, just to keep it a float. Its the same problem with MMO's that offer "Lifetime Subscriptions" <---- Garbage. I paid for two Lifetimes over the past 5 years and I will never, ever, fall for that marketing junk. I will not play a F2P game and IF thats the model of the future, then I guess thats when my MMO career comes to an end. As long as they still have p2p AAA titles, I will keep playing MMO's.

Originally posted by Lanfea

Originally posted by Coman

Originally posted by Lanfea

but cashshops with tradable items are a no go for me and should be for you too. why? because in my opinion they create and support a two class system of players - the rich and the poor (don't take this too literal). for example: in game XYZ the best gear can be crafted and are worth 100k gold, to get 100k you have to spend at least 25 hr of grinding in the game, your character needs at least 4 items. so 'the poor' contributed 100 hrs of work to get the gear, 'the rich' took 5 minutes to buy items in the cashshop worth 50 €, sold them within an hour on the ingame market and then bought the same gear. 100 hrs of work in the real world does have an average value of ~1000 € after taxes (western industrial countries) ... well, i guess you can see my point. it would be acceptable if cashshop items are binded to your account, non tradable, but still would create a two class system.

 

the term 'f2p' is one big surprise bag, looks really good, but you don't know whats inside.

I do not understand this. I do not see the problem and fully understand why people prefer to play a game (assuming the grind is fun) instead of spending there hard worked money. F2P gives you this choice to do so.

 

its not so easy, coman. 'the rich', is the typical casual gamer. hes the maintarget of the companies, hes the one who is the financial backup of the game and keep it running. so a company is eager to ensure that he can reach and get everything without spending time with grinding (rarely fun) and for a reasonable amount of real money. the poor, the grinders, are for this company very welcomed unpaid employees, important to support, provide and entertain the paying customers like mr. casual gamer. you're right when you say they have a choice, but lets be realistic: mr casual gamer would not spend his 1-2 hr freetime mmo playing per day with boring grinding with the goal to have the top quality gear after 2 months. and besides the 'grind factor' there is also the social factor: if you don't want to be a victim you need this gear for pvp or without this gear you would be a ineffective for our raidgroup.

 

and i'm guilty to use this mechanism. in aion i calculated how long it will take me to get this and that equipment, how much ingame currency i need if i would buy it in the auctionhouse and how much real money i have to spend to get it .... well, 15 € against 4 weeks and 2-3 hrs a day ... i decided to spend the real money after fighting with myself for an hour. but never again, it was an act of violence against my own principles, i was weak and ashamed of myself.  principles, a funny thing, and something that comes in play everytime a debate started about f2p - p2p - b2p.

 

one last thought: do we really need a two class society in mmo(rp)gs, in virtual worlds in which we should relax, have fun, socialize without prejudices and forget about the real world? 

 

 

 

 

Nicely said.

Originally posted by DarthVious

I personally feel that F2P is crap. It is a bad business model that idiots fall for. Sorry, but its true. All they do is nickel and dime you to death to do anything in their sub-par game, just to keep it a float. Its the same problem with MMO's that offer "Lifetime Subscriptions" <---- Garbage. I paid for two Lifetimes over the past 5 years and I will never, ever, fall for that marketing junk. I will not play a F2P game and IF thats the model of the future, then I guess thats when my MMO career comes to an end. As long as they still have p2p AAA titles, I will keep playing MMO's.

Ive never understood why the method in which you pay for a product effects peoples opinion of the actual gameplay itself.   It

The games dont nickel n dime you to death at all... I agree that the only Asian pure F2P's are like that, but not the western 'freemium method'

Lotro, for example...  I did pay quite a bit at first,  but now.. I dont pay anything,  everything is bought just from being a full subscription member for several months, and now I dont really need to subscribe.  Especially now that I can monster play for free :D

My other favorite Freemium is APB.  Which, again.. I no longer have any reason to subscribe to ever again.  There may be additional content to purchase.. like an expansion, but Ive got all the weapons I need, all the vehicles and upgrades.

Not only that, those games which have gone freemium are getting better, as the money flows in.  They dont get worse.

As for AAA Sub mmo's... well, evidence is that they are getting worse, not better.

Originally posted by sadeyx

Originally posted by DarthVious

I personally feel that F2P is crap. It is a bad business model that idiots fall for. Sorry, but its true. All they do is nickel and dime you to death to do anything in their sub-par game, just to keep it a float. Its the same problem with MMO's that offer "Lifetime Subscriptions" <---- Garbage. I paid for two Lifetimes over the past 5 years and I will never, ever, fall for that marketing junk. I will not play a F2P game and IF thats the model of the future, then I guess thats when my MMO career comes to an end. As long as they still have p2p AAA titles, I will keep playing MMO's.

 

Ive never understood why the method in which you pay for a product effects peoples opinion of the actual gameplay itself.   It

The games dont nickel n dime you to death at all... I agree that the only Asian pure F2P's are like that, but not the western 'freemium method'

Lotro, for example...  I did pay quite a bit at first,  but now.. I dont pay anything,  everything is bought just from being a full subscription member for several months, and now I dont really need to subscribe.  Especially now that I can monster play for free :D

My other favorite Freemium is APB.  Which, again.. I no longer have any reason to subscribe to ever again.  There may be additional content to purchase.. like an expansion, but Ive got all the weapons I need, all the vehicles and upgrades.

Not only that, those games which have gone freemium are getting better, as the money flows in.  They dont get worse.

As for AAA Sub mmo's... well, evidence is that they are getting worse, not better.

 

 

 

The difference is very subtle. On some games at least. Nevertheless f2p is the wrong model for games. Money + playing = gambling.  While a sub is like paying rent.

They want to maximize profit and not make better games. They dont have the skills to make good games, they have only skill in fooling people. And they try to capitalize on peoples little weaknesses. Games will become less and less appealing and more and more boring. Yes, its successful either Las Vegas would have closed its doors. But Las Vegas has as much to do with high culture as f2p with high quality mmorpg.

A whole lot of teh allmighty opinion passed off as fact here. Sure the social sciences bladerun the ideal of subjectivity but stil... Then again opinion makes the web traffic cash flow +)

Tell you what, give me the option of P2P in a F2P game. Make the P2P option unlock all the stuff folks have to pay to get in the F2P model, so *we* have a choice as to how we want to play they game.

That is about the only way I would look at playing most F2P games.

Why are any freemium games like Lotro worse then any of the P2P games? Almost every P2P game have a cash shop next to regular sub. 

pay to play or like some call it pay to win modeal is in for the trend. people don't have the money to spend on games any more. usa is running out o money eu is going to crap. Hell the 1st few lvs of WOW is going free. Yeah the BIG game is partly going free to play. So that says something don't it?

Originally posted by kostoslav

Why are any freemium games like Lotro worse then any of the P2P games? Almost every P2P game have a cash shop next to regular sub. 

True. That does not make freemium any better though.

I am against cash shops in p2p btw.

From what I read and what f2p shift may bring is that next batch of games (after big productions in 2012 ) , is that next games may be relatively low budget ones.  Bigger amount of games but made with lesser budget that is what will be future trend on the market. 

This is answer for people changins games very often. , not to mention answer to recession hitting family budgets even worse lately.  Instead of making games better to make people play game longer (cause of few very costly game failures in past + that kind of attitude if more expensive + low budget f2p games bring nice money anyway) mainstream mmorpg will change from "few big budget productions" to "bigger amount of medium and small budget productions" , this has already started.

Well until that new trend does not change I refuse to further participate as a consumer.

I have certain expectations and mmorpg market direction change in a way that will make fulfilling that expectations close to impossible (lower budgets , f2p , freemium , cash shops business models) - I guess my time playing mmorpg has came to an end or more hopefully to an LONG few years break.

My only hope is that in few years p2p big-budget attitude will start making it's come back , so I have reason to come back.

I am not holding my breath though.

well all ive seen so far (the past 10 years) is that F2P means higher precentage of bad community... plus u gotta remember..u get what u pay for :P most f2p games have bad servers... even worse graphics and its prolly a lineage 2 rip off ... (and i never liked L2 :P)  the only reason i would ever play a f2p game is if it's a game like EQ2 or DAoC ,games that were amazing p2p but lost people after 5-6 years...Lastly, the "good" f2p games will prolly cost you more than a p2p game 'cause in order to advance and have the full experience u're going to pay for items with some sort of timer...when it expires u gotta buy it again and again and again and again.... :p

p.s. : dont read this . nothing new :P

Originally posted by TheCrow2k

Really pay to play is a dinosaur or at least the current model is. I think tiered monthly payment options (IE: $5/$10/$15 a month options) are a good way for newer games to go and also freemium and cash shops (no pay to win please) as well.

I find it odd that SWTOR has gone the old $15 a month route & wonder how long it will last, personally I think $15 as your only option is too much for what it is. In the current economic climate people are far more frugal & so subscription based services need to adapt or become extinct. Competition between ISP's and Cable companies local to me is hotting up as a result and yet some of the biggest players in the MMO market want to preserve their old tried and tested $15 a month fee, I guess they just are not following their own market.

As to no pay to win cash shops.  In order to have a successful cash shop you gotta sell stuff.  to sell stuff players have to want it.  Only a small percentage of players are willing to pay for fluff.  So slowly and insideously you add cash shop items that help a little in the game ... you sell more.  So you figure out how to make things that help a little more ... more sales ... like a drug addict the cash shop designers keep adding till you can buy epicstuff that makes you the king (there are actually games in asia where you must buy lots of stuff to be/stay king).  One lady spent the equavlent of $7,000 to become queen.  She was soon dethroned after she decided she was spending too much, and has since quit gaming.

Cash shops are run by gamer drug dealers.

As to SWTOR not being worth $15.00 a month, how do you know having not played it yet??  AND if you cannot afford $15 a month for an MMO, get better grades in school and get your parents to raise your allowance.   If I only played WoW 15 hours a month (1/2 hour a day), it would cost me a whole $1.00 / hour ... OMG I am headed to the poorhouse ... crap, a candy bar cost $1.00 or more now days ..... and those illegal cigaretts you smoke to be cool are $5.00 a pack.

People below the poverty line are not the mainstream mmo players (although I am only a couple thousand above it, I have no problem coming up with $15.00 a month).  Heck I pay more than that for books!!!!

Originally posted by wahala99

Originally posted by TheCrow2k

Really pay to play is a dinosaur or at least the current model is. I think tiered monthly payment options (IE: $5/$10/$15 a month options) are a good way for newer games to go and also freemium and cash shops (no pay to win please) as well.

I find it odd that SWTOR has gone the old $15 a month route & wonder how long it will last, personally I think $15 as your only option is too much for what it is. In the current economic climate people are far more frugal & so subscription based services need to adapt or become extinct. Competition between ISP's and Cable companies local to me is hotting up as a result and yet some of the biggest players in the MMO market want to preserve their old tried and tested $15 a month fee, I guess they just are not following their own market.

As to no pay to win cash shops.  In order to have a successful cash shop you gotta sell stuff.  to sell stuff players have to want it.  Only a small percentage of players are willing to pay for fluff.  So slowly and insideously you add cash shop items that help a little in the game ... you sell more.  So you figure out how to make things that help a little more ... more sales ... like a drug addict the cash shop designers keep adding till you can buy epicstuff that makes you the king (there are actually games in asia where you must buy lots of stuff to be/stay king).  One lady spent the equavlent of $7,000 to become queen.  She was soon dethroned after she decided she was spending too much, and has since quit gaming.

Cash shops are run by gamer drug dealers.

As to SWTOR not being worth $15.00 a month, how do you know having not played it yet??  AND if you cannot afford $15 a month for an MMO, get better grades in school and get your parents to raise your allowance.   If I only played WoW 15 hours a month (1/2 hour a day), it would cost me a whole $1.00 / hour ... OMG I am headed to the poorhouse ... crap, a candy bar cost $1.00 or more now days ..... and those illegal cigaretts you smoke to be cool are $5.00 a pack.

People below the poverty line are not the mainstream mmo players (although I am only a couple thousand above it, I have no problem coming up with $15.00 a month).  Heck I pay more than that for books!!!!

 

Exactly this ---^^

For small budget indie games, f2p is the way to go.  For the big budget, subscription is the way to go, naturally once these big budget games become outdated they will eventually offer f2p options.

The big item you are missing is that a subscription game can project revenue out the gate, a f2p game cannot.  You have to find a bunch of foolish investors to support a f2p game at it's inception, hence what we see in the f2p arena these days is a lot of games with little content, but with large grind to keep people playing.

I have seen comments saying that Blizzard's next game will be f2p and that is just complete nonsense.  They have done very well with subscriptions and I don't see that changing anytime in the near future.

Personally, most of the f2p games cost you a lot more than $15 a month if you like the game, especially if the game has things in the cash shop which effect pvp.