Originally posted by CyberWiz

Originally posted by Loke666

Still, Blizzard is too greedy in this case, the whole idea is just terrible, particularly for a game like Diablo. I used to think that SOE stations servers were bad but there you can at least choose to play on anothe server.

In a perfect world I would agree with you, but with all the illegal RMT going on, why should Blizzard not get a piece of the pie and nerf some illegal sellers while they are at it.

I hope that by having legal RMT, Blizzard will have the funds ( funds from D3 itself, so that it is profitable ) and the willingness to put in the effort to elliminate the botters and scammers as much as possible. They will have a vested interest in keeping the game healthy, unlike DiabloII where they have nothing to gain.

The thing is that even without the RMAH you do not have the choice to play RMT free because of all the illegal RMT.

The only other way to combat illegal RMT ( besides legal RMT ) is with a subscription fee, where Blizzard would have another way of funding updates, adn the fight against botters, scammers and RMT.

But if you look at WoW, where they really have put some effort in combatting this, they also failed.

So the pragmatic solution is :

- Make RMT legal

- Do it yourself ( Blizzard ) and make profit from it

- Use this profit to combat the rest of the illegal RMT market, together with the scammers and botters.

In a perfect world, illegal narcotics wouldn't be such a problem. But it's going to happen no matter how hard the US government tries, so why shouldn't they get a piece of the narcotics trade and compete against the illegal sellers?

Yes, I realize that's a slippery slope argument at it's core, but my point is that one shouldn't forgo one's own principles simply because it's inconvenient and less profitable.

Besides, how exactly does Blizzard legitimizing RMT actually handle any of the ills that come from it? People's accounts will still be hijacked for their items, players will still scam other players, players will still have a monetary incentive to exploit bugs, hack the game, bot, etc. So Blizzard 'getting in on the RMT action' isn't actually combating any of the downsides to RMT, it's just shifting where some of the profit of it goes.

And that's why I think it's a purely greed motivated move on Blizzard's part. By making RMT acceptable they're by association also promoting all of the bad behavior associated with RMT. But they don't care, because they're making money off of it.

Originally posted by Requiamer

 

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Originally posted by bunnyhopper

You are NOT paying for a random number generator

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Yes you do, that is the point.
The way you warp it doesn't change its principles. You pay, roll some dices, and can get some profit from it or not.
The fact you endorse a virtual personality, you need to fight with it in a game, and have to trade, here don't have much incidence. You definitely could use bots to deal with all those aspects and never have to "play", you would just come at the end of the botting session and get your money or not depending on the roll success of the day, and thats probably what a lot of people are already planning to do, and what Blizz is expecting some people to do to.

edit typos

No you don't, that is the point.

Please explain how you pay for the random number generator.

You only pay for putting up an auction. That is not a random number generator. It's not a random component that determines if your auction will sell. It's your listed buyout price against the market price that determines if and how fast the auction will sell.

I really need to stop reading this thread. Trying to convince people that the RMAH is not a form of gambling is very similar to banging my head on a brick wall. It's painful and is going nowhere. gg

Originally posted by RelytDnegel

I really need to stop reading this thread. Trying to convince people that the RMAH is not a form of gambling is very similar to banging my head on a brick wall. It's painful and is going nowhere. gg

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Originally posted by RelytDnegel
I really need to stop reading this thread. Trying to convince people that the RMAH is not a form of gambling is very similar to banging my head on a brick wall. It's painful and is going nowhere. gg

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You know what you really sound like a fan boy here. There is no one to convince here about anything. Those are investigations and decision taken by authorities anyway.

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Originally posted by TalRasha
Please explain how you pay for the random number generator.

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People that pretend to not see the similarity are pretty twisted here.

Originally posted by bunnyhopper

Originally posted by RelytDnegel

I really need to stop reading this thread. Trying to convince people that the RMAH is not a form of gambling is very similar to banging my head on a brick wall. It's painful and is going nowhere. gg

 

I personally didnt say it wasnt, I just said;

All MMORPGs are based on the gambling mentallity. The player high of a payoff is a major hook in their pyschology.

Even in sub games you gamble, the only difference is that the currency in use is time.

The RMAH concept dosent make this any better or worse. 

If you play MMORPGs, you gamble. End of.

But I guess you don't see anything but your PoV either :/

Originally posted by Ceridith

Originally posted by CyberWiz

Originally posted by Loke666

Still, Blizzard is too greedy in this case, the whole idea is just terrible, particularly for a game like Diablo. I used to think that SOE stations servers were bad but there you can at least choose to play on anothe server.

In a perfect world I would agree with you, but with all the illegal RMT going on, why should Blizzard not get a piece of the pie and nerf some illegal sellers while they are at it.

I hope that by having legal RMT, Blizzard will have the funds ( funds from D3 itself, so that it is profitable ) and the willingness to put in the effort to elliminate the botters and scammers as much as possible. They will have a vested interest in keeping the game healthy, unlike DiabloII where they have nothing to gain.

The thing is that even without the RMAH you do not have the choice to play RMT free because of all the illegal RMT.

The only other way to combat illegal RMT ( besides legal RMT ) is with a subscription fee, where Blizzard would have another way of funding updates, adn the fight against botters, scammers and RMT.

But if you look at WoW, where they really have put some effort in combatting this, they also failed.

So the pragmatic solution is :

- Make RMT legal

- Do it yourself ( Blizzard ) and make profit from it

- Use this profit to combat the rest of the illegal RMT market, together with the scammers and botters.

In a perfect world, illegal narcotics wouldn't be such a problem. But it's going to happen no matter how hard the US government tries, so why shouldn't they get a piece of the narcotics trade and compete against the illegal sellers?

Well you have a good point, and in fact alcohol and tobacco are a good example of regulated legal narcotics in the US. While Marihuana is an example in Holland and Belgium.

Yes, I realize that's a slippery slope argument at it's core, but my point is that one shouldn't forgo one's own principles simply because it's inconvenient and less profitable.

Besides, how exactly does Blizzard legitimizing RMT actually handle any of the ills that come from it? People's accounts will still be hijacked for their items, players will still scam other players, players will still have a monetary incentive to exploit bugs, hack the game, bot, etc. So Blizzard 'getting in on the RMT action' isn't actually combating any of the downsides to RMT, it's just shifting where some of the profit of it goes.

By legalizing RMT there will be at least a percentage of items that are gained by playing the game is it is meant to be played, so the AH will at least contain a good part of legal items, and most likely also a good part of illegal items. Blizzard can then spend the money earned to improve the game and combat the botters and scammers.

And that's why I think it's a purely greed motivated move on Blizzard's part. By making RMT acceptable they're by association also promoting all of the bad behavior associated with RMT. But they don't care, because they're making money off of it.

Well, again, straight microtransactions are worse imho ( and the only alternative for a F2P title, unless you go freemium ), because in that case they are conjuring items out of thin air, and the game no longer has to be played.

To conclude, I would prefer that Diablo3 would be a subscription game, with an even playing field, but nowadays I guess that is out of the question, so I prefer legal RMT between players over Microtransactions within a cash shop.

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Originally posted by vesavius

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Originally posted by bunnyhopper

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Originally posted by RelytDnegel

I really need to stop reading this thread. Trying to convince people that the RMAH is not a form of gambling is very similar to banging my head on a brick wall. It's painful and is going nowhere. gg

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I personally didnt say it wasnt, I just said;
All MMORPGs are based on the gambling mentallity. The player high of a payoff is a major hook in their pyschology.
Even in sub games you gamble, the only difference is that the currency in use is time.
The RMAH concept dosent make this any better or worse. 
 
If you play MMORPGs, you gamble. End of.
 
But I guess you don't see anything but your PoV either :/

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Originally posted by vesavius

Originally posted by bunnyhopper

Originally posted by RelytDnegel

I really need to stop reading this thread. Trying to convince people that the RMAH is not a form of gambling is very similar to banging my head on a brick wall. It's painful and is going nowhere. gg

 

 

I personally didnt say it wasnt, I just said;

All MMORPGs are based on the gambling mentallity. The player high of a payoff is a major hook in their pyschology.

Even in sub games you gamble, the only difference is that the currency in use is time.

The RMAH concept dosent make this any better or worse. 

 

If you play MMORPGs, you gamble. End of.

 

But I guess you don't see anything but your PoV either :/

I wasn't refering to you in all fairness and I agree with your over all notion in terms of "gambling" in the sense that I "gamble" every time I cross the road.

What I personally am arguing against is the notion that some in this thread have that the D3 mechanics some how count as gambling in the sense that can actually be legislated against by sporting and gaming license agencies.

What would be occuring in D3 would be more akin to work and thus should be legislated and taxed as such. People who salvage wrecks spend an inordinate amount of time and money in the hope of a return, but they don't report to the governments gaming and gambling authority.

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Originally posted by bunnyhopper

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Originally posted by vesavius

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Originally posted by bunnyhopper

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Originally posted by RelytDnegel

I really need to stop reading this thread. Trying to convince people that the RMAH is not a form of gambling is very similar to banging my head on a brick wall. It's painful and is going nowhere. gg

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I personally didnt say it wasnt, I just said;
All MMORPGs are based on the gambling mentallity. The player high of a payoff is a major hook in their pyschology.
Even in sub games you gamble, the only difference is that the currency in use is time.
The RMAH concept dosent make this any better or worse. 
 
If you play MMORPGs, you gamble. End of.
 
But I guess you don't see anything but your PoV either :/

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I wasn't refering to you in all fairness and I agree with your over all notion in terms of "gambling" in the sense that I "gamble" every time I cross the road.
 
What I personally am arguing against is the notion that some in this thread have that the D3 mechanics some how count as gambling in the sense that can actually be legislated against by sporting and gaming license agencies.

What would be occuring in D3 would be more akin to work and thus should be legislated and taxed as such. People who salvage wrecks spend an inordinate amount of time and money in the hope of a return, but they don't report to the governments gaming and gambling authority.

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Originally posted by lennpell

This is good, because Blizzard knows koreans love these types of games and they'd lose so many sales it'd be ridic, we might just have our saving grace for the AH here guys.

I doubt that Diablo is that popular in asia.... its just not their style and the korean like pvp, diablo was never famous for it.

Originally posted by romanator0

Originally posted by thegypsyking

Originally posted by RefMinor
I am surprised the US will allow what is potentially a gambling shop.

The RMAH has nearly zero similarities with gambling, that's a pitiful comparison.  All we can do is wait to see how Blizzard creates what could be the new MMO standard, or the fatal flaw with D3.

How so?

When gambling you pay somebody money to get a chance to make more money.

The the RMAH you pay Blizzard money to get a chance to make some money.

In both you aren't guaranteed to make anything.

Looks like they have the same basic principles to me.

Except that you are promised a sale price and actually recieve the reward 100% of the time..

Basically what they are saying is this...

Diablo 2 had Unidentified items, Players will post said Unidentified items up (that are high quality types of items) then players will use real money to purchase said item, then use a scroll to identify and then it turns out to be a piece  of shit item... thus it is know Gambling for items

As much as i like the diablo series, i completely hate the fact that we are adding a real money auction system, it really hurts and is just as bad as COD pulling a 15 bucks a month subscription to get little updates for their game... and shitty 17 dollar addons in the game....

companies seriously need to stop throwing shit into gamers faces, they think we are dumb... START VOTING WITH YOUR WALLETS FOLKS NOT YOUR FREAKING EGOS!

Originally posted by SaintViktor

Originally posted by kilun

Originally posted by SaintViktor

Originally posted by thegypsyking

Originally posted by RefMinor
I am surprised the US will allow what is potentially a gambling shop.

The RMAH has nearly zero similarities with gambling, that's a pitiful comparison.  All we can do is wait to see how Blizzard creates what could be the new MMO standard, or the fatal flaw with D3.

 Oh really, then tell us what it is then because bidding on items on an AH is gambling.

 And bidding on eBay is gambling as well then?  So is any auction in general with that analogy.  You pay a fee to put up an auction to the host(this case the host is blizzard)  they take a cut of the sale price(in their case its a flat fee regardless of final price)  Your a seller, most sellers have a monetary value attached, if people ever ran a small business(be it a table at a flea market with a cost per table) to selling on Ebay they would understand basic businesses economics 101: You got to put up money to make money.

Yes, I can without a doubt understand the thought process because frankly it is close to gambling in a sense that we want to win something and get caught up in auctions.  But gambling is blowing money with a chance to win more money, item, etc.  In this case the buyer puts up nothing if they do not win, so it does not equal gambling.

 Lets say you put up an item on the RMAH and it costs you a $1 fee for the listing fee and $1.00 for the transaction fee for using the RMAH. The item sells for $8.00 on the RMAH, right then and there is a profit. From your own words.... But gambling is blowing money with a chance to win more money, item, etc. Its gambling....

By this logic, ebay is gambling, have they banned ebay?  (That's not a completely smartass question.  If they didn't ban the use of ebay, why not?  Why is it ok to use one form of auction and not another?)  

Originally posted by romanator0

Originally posted by thegypsyking

Originally posted by RefMinor
I am surprised the US will allow what is potentially a gambling shop.

The RMAH has nearly zero similarities with gambling, that's a pitiful comparison.  All we can do is wait to see how Blizzard creates what could be the new MMO standard, or the fatal flaw with D3.

How so?

When gambling you pay somebody money to get a chance to make more money.

The the RMAH you pay Blizzard money to get a chance to make some money.

In both you aren't guaranteed to make anything.

Looks like they have the same basic principles to me.

I disagree. THE RMAH is the in-game equivalent to eBay. Someone is providing a good for a price. You choose whether or not to purchase it with your real money. You know what you are purchasing, you know for how much; what is a gamble here? The fact that someone may not buy your item? That's not gambling at all.

Originally posted by Requiamer

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Originally posted by TalRasha
Please explain how you pay for the random number generator.

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You pay for the box, and you pay to put your items on the auction house. The game is the holder of the RNG.

People that pretend to not see the similarity are pretty twisted here.

People who don't use the AH also pay for the box. The box price has nothing to do with the AH.

I already explained in my post that paying a fee to auction something is not gambling, if it were, eBay would also be illegal in Korea, wich it isn't.

There certainly is a similarity with gambling, I'll give you that. If you had to pay money every time before you killed a monster, that would certainly be like a slotmachine. The distinct difference is that you don't pay before killing a monster, you only pay a fee after you already won something.

Originally posted by Talin

Originally posted by romanator0

Originally posted by thegypsyking

Originally posted by RefMinor
I am surprised the US will allow what is potentially a gambling shop.

The RMAH has nearly zero similarities with gambling, that's a pitiful comparison.  All we can do is wait to see how Blizzard creates what could be the new MMO standard, or the fatal flaw with D3.

How so?

When gambling you pay somebody money to get a chance to make more money.

The the RMAH you pay Blizzard money to get a chance to make some money.

In both you aren't guaranteed to make anything.

Looks like they have the same basic principles to me.

I disagree. THE RMAH is the in-game equivalent to eBay. Someone is providing a good for a price. You choose whether or not to purchase it with your real money. You know what you are purchasing, you know for how much; what is a gamble here? The fact that someone may not buy your item? That's not gambling at all.

 

The SELLER is the gambler.  Rely on the roll of dice to get a good item to sell, then pay Blizz for your chance to sell it on the AH.  If you don't sell it....you lose your bet that you WOULD sell it.

I know....you're still not convinced.  Doesn't matter to me.  I'm going to play Torchlight, so....my interest in D3 is only because I played D2 LOD Online and remember it fondly.

are any of you guys listening? They can post up unidentified gear onto the auction house, and identification scrolls along with it... they are trying to say that if a player purchases an UNIDENTIFIED ITEM they will have to pay real money for it for the price that the player sets then identify it, and if its not what they were priced to be or what it was supposed to be... then THATS GAMBLING

Remember Wirt? and the gambling system he had for in game gold.... its going to be exactly that with real money though on the auction house

Originally posted by sldrop

Originally posted by marinrider

Originally posted by romanator0

Originally posted by thegypsyking

Originally posted by RefMinor
I am surprised the US will allow what is potentially a gambling shop.

The RMAH has nearly zero similarities with gambling, that's a pitiful comparison.  All we can do is wait to see how Blizzard creates what could be the new MMO standard, or the fatal flaw with D3.

How so?

When gambling you pay somebody money to get a chance to make more money.

The the RMAH you pay Blizzard money to get a chance to make some money.

In both you aren't guaranteed to make anything.

Looks like they have the same basic principles to me.

This AH is not gambling.  If it was than any form of real auction would be gambling.  Gambling is when your betting against numbers or odds.  With something like Trading the stock market (which by your definition is gambling), RMAH, or any other auction or even "Mary Kay" or tuperware selling, its all based on your skill and your devotion.  

 

I was thinking like you too @marinrider 

but after reading http://daeity.blogspot.com/2011/09/diablo-3-and-illegal-online-gambling.html it change my thoughts.

Whereas WOW had fixed loot tables and drops in an "Achiever Economy", Diablo 3 random wins are "indeterministic" and everything has a random chance of dropping varying levels of value. There is no skill required in WHAT drops.. you can't control it, it's like a roulette wheel. So, the "loot generation" is purely a game of chance with no skill. However, there is another game of chance (and skill required) to get TO the loot generation components.. and that's by killing a virtual monster. The gambling part is what the monster might drop when you roll that dice.

By this logic though, some things would be legal to sell on ebay and others wouldn't.  Most collectable card games for example, have common, rare, ultrarare, etc.  Would selling those be considered gambling because you have a random chance of getting them?  It is pure chance if i open a pack and get one of the "ultra rare" cards, it takes no skill to tear open a wrapper.

Originally posted by Talin

Originally posted by romanator0

Originally posted by thegypsyking

Originally posted by RefMinor
I am surprised the US will allow what is potentially a gambling shop.

The RMAH has nearly zero similarities with gambling, that's a pitiful comparison.  All we can do is wait to see how Blizzard creates what could be the new MMO standard, or the fatal flaw with D3.

How so?

When gambling you pay somebody money to get a chance to make more money.

The the RMAH you pay Blizzard money to get a chance to make some money.

In both you aren't guaranteed to make anything.

Looks like they have the same basic principles to me.

I disagree. THE RMAH is the in-game equivalent to eBay. Someone is providing a good for a price. You choose whether or not to purchase it with your real money. You know what you are purchasing, you know for how much; what is a gamble here? The fact that someone may not buy your item? That's not gambling at all.

 

To encourage a system like this would mean only that we will have buy2win system in games... I hate the idea of D3's cash AH... The whole thing has "WE WANT PROFIT" written over it.