First, let me clarify the thread title: I'm wondering if there are any MMO's currently released in which a person who is so inclined can NOT exchange real money for an in-game PvE or PvP advantage over other players.

For the most part, I'm not talking about "f2p" MMO games, as these clearly allow this exchange.  What I'm really wondering is if there are any p2p or b2p MMO's that somehow managed to prevent this as well. 

For example, to the best of my knowledge WoW's current item shop does not sell anything that would give any advantage in a dungeon, battleground, arena, raid, questing, etc.  However, we all know that anyone so inclined can very easily purchase WoW gold with real money and not only that but also characters with the best gear in the game; gear which in many cases is nearly impossible for an average player to obtain.  I'm not condoning this practice of course, just stating the indisputable fact that these RMT's exist in this example.

The same is true for other p2p games with no cash shops, I just used WoW as a popular example.  Given that this is the case, are p2p games with, shall we say, "out-of-game" cash shops any different than f2p games with "in-game" ones, from the perspective of paying for advantages with real money?  Of course, they may be different in principle or ethics or something of that sort, but is there a difference in the actual result?

Also, are there any MMO's out there that somehow managed to prevent "out of game" cash shops?  If so, what are they and how did they do it?  It seems it would require some very clever or unusual mechanics to prevent that.  The only way I can see would be to completely remove any special "gear" from the game, so that all players from casual to hardcore would have access to the exact same items and equipment.  But perhaps some clever devs or forum members have thought of another way?

Guild Wars

PvP characters are all maxed out, items are maxed out and item enhancements and runes are easy to max out. I'm sure there's some "gold trading" in this game too, but you get no advantage from it. It goes well with the E-sport style PvP.

You can spend money to unlock skills, items etc. for PvP (not for PvE) from the item shop, but since you can get all the same things free from PvE easily enough, it is not that big of a deal.

yes

Originally posted by RollieJoe

For example, to the best of my knowledge WoW's current item shop does not sell anything that would give any advantage in a dungeon, battleground, arena, raid, questing, etc.  However, we all know that anyone so inclined can very easily purchase WoW gold with real money and not only that but also characters with the best gear in the game; gear which in many cases is nearly impossible for an average player to obtain.  I'm not condoning this practice of course, just stating the indisputable fact that these RMT's exist in this example.

Yes, illegal RMT has obviously always existed. No the majority, because of peer pressure and threat of being banned, didnt engage in it.

So yes, you could cheat if you wanted to and pay to win. There are cheats in every game.

The problem though now is that everyone has been forced to be made a cheat and a lot of folks don't like that. They like to play for their in game prizes, not be forced to buy them from a meta shop if they like them.

Ofc, this isnt even addessring the fact that these older games were designed from the ground up to NOT be cheated in and that philosophy sits at the core of their design. They were designed to be played. The new legitimate RMT games though are obviously exactly the opposite, which changes the very nature of the 'game' on offer.

If you call having to buy expansions to stay competitive P2W then I think there are few to none mmo's which are not P2W.

Speaking of this, why is everyone fine with having to buy expansions but not fine with having to buy smaller packs via a cash shop?

In basically all mmorpg's you can buy gold or sometimes other things "illegally".  This also includes games which sell gold in item-shops or sell through system like PLEX - gold sellers just undercut it.

So that' is true.

But still in my opinion there is HUGE diffrence between game that sell gold / items as part of it's game experience and business model and a game where all items (sometimes apart of very few like 5 or so cosmetics) are aquireable officially through gameplay and you can just get gold going against EULA and risking bad/hack/scam.

There is no possibility to prevent that unless you make trade between players totally impossible , but then buying / selling characters will still be there.

Only thing you can do is mimimalize it. , by providing very good account security measures (limits hacking acconts for gold stealing , botting and advertising) , by including GM tools that detect bots (characters beign online a lot , or just killing random mobs, etc) and gold trading (big gold transfers without getting any items/ similar valuable items back for it, etc)  , creating very restrictive api , making logs avabile to read only using ingame client (encrypted files out of game)that make writing bots harder and many other things like that.

You cannot totally get rid of it.  Game can sell gold and all items themself , can provide means to legally trade characters (company get %) but people will still get around it . Always. It was proved many times. Gold sellers will undercut official prices (bots , account hacking)  , characters will be traded outside to avoid "company tax" ,etc

You can mimimalize it , but not get rid of it.

Well unless you make crafting , trading ,etc virtually not existant and focus almsot purely on combat , etc - but still you will have character trading and things like levelling or grinding money for cash (giving access to character).

Tbh , if game is managed well , gold sellers banned and exploits and security good , gold sellers aren't that big of a problem.

There are bigger problems mmorpg's are facing.

@Diovidius

Huh?  Expansion packs are big packs of content.

Cash shop items and gold is erm it is so diffrent that It is so obvious , I really cannot find words to explain it. Seem if you don't see diffrence we have totally diffrent understanding of core terms and why we even play games ,etc

Originally posted by vesavius

Yes, illegal RMT has obviously always existed. No the majority, because of peer pressure and threat of being banned, didnt engage in it.

So yes, you could cheat if you wanted to and pay to win. There are cheats in every game.

The problem though now is that everyone has been forced to be made a cheat and a lot of folks don't like that. They like to play for their in game prizes, not be forced to buy them from a meta shop if they like them.

 

Ofc, this isnt even addessring the fact that these older games were designed from the ground up to NOT be cheated in and that philosophy sits at the core of their design. They were designed to be played. The new legitimate RMT games though are obviously exactly the opposite, which changes the very nature of the 'game' on offer.

 

THIS.  X 10000 !!

I am not playing currently any mmorpg cause of that.  P2P that are left have changed in gameplay so I cannot stomach them anymore (WoW Cata now vs WoW Vanilla...) , Rift (same as WoW Cata) or those are old titles I already played alot in past years so I am not interested anymore. Apart of that many f2p / freemium games that I played , but after some time playing them I realized that cash shops, legal rmt ,etc just make gameplay experience intolerable for me.

So just waiting for few 2012 games , if I won't get some decent P2P title (TSW I will NOT play cause of p2p + cs) , I will quit mmorpg playing totally. Maybe will check what state mmorpg genre is in 2013 again then.

Yes I am fully aware of shift mmorpg is taking atm, still that is not any reason for me personally to change my opinion or expectations. 

My leisure time and my money are to valuable to spend it in a way I don't want. Whatever current coroporation strategy is.

Originally posted by vesavius

Originally posted by RollieJoe

For example, to the best of my knowledge WoW's current item shop does not sell anything that would give any advantage in a dungeon, battleground, arena, raid, questing, etc.  However, we all know that anyone so inclined can very easily purchase WoW gold with real money and not only that but also characters with the best gear in the game; gear which in many cases is nearly impossible for an average player to obtain.  I'm not condoning this practice of course, just stating the indisputable fact that these RMT's exist in this example.

 

Yes, illegal RMT has obviously always existed. No the majority, because of peer pressure and threat of being banned, didnt engage in it.

So yes, you could cheat if you wanted to and pay to win. There are cheats in every game.

The problem though now is that everyone has been forced to be made a cheat and a lot of folks don't like that. They like to play for their in game prizes, not be forced to buy them from a meta shop if they like them.

 

Ofc, this isnt even addessring the fact that these older games were designed from the ground up to NOT be cheated in and that philosophy sits at the core of their design. They were designed to be played. The new legitimate RMT games though are obviously exactly the opposite, which changes the very nature of the 'game' on offer.

 

I disagree with your first statement as it doesn't cover one very important element.. There are people who don't and wouldn't engage in RMT on principle. Buying your way through the game undermines the point of playing it. That's the single and only reason why I have never bought gold in any MMO. I've known personally or otherwise known of plenty of others who feel the same way. So, while it may be true for some that peer pressure is a factor... It certainly isn't for everyone.

However, I agree 100% with your last two paragraphs - especially the last paragraph, as you sum up the situation beautifully. I can't tell you how many times I've tried to make that distinction... and people either don't "get it", or choose to ignore it.

It's not just about them adding items to a virtual mall and asking people to buy them. It's how that setup affects the entire game's design from the ground up. The quote in my signature sums it up beautifully. If someone has played enough sub-based MMOs, they can definitely tell the differences. I know I certainly can. F2P/Cash Shop MMOs are designed with deliberate inconveniences and obstacles built in... and those inconvniences and obstacles will always have remedies conveniently sold in the cash shop.

That said...

To take it even further, people should take a step back and see how the cash shop is paired against the Cash Shop Point packages players can buy to purchase the items. For starters, stop and think about why they use cash shop points, instead of just straight-up currency? Why the "middle-man"? Well, it makes it easier to obfuscate and "hide" how much you're really paying for things on a "per-item" basis over time. I think if they attached real monetary values to items, people might not be so quick to pull out the credit cards... and the developers have figured this out.

When you remove an absolute $ value from something, people tend to become less "attentive" to it. This happens in many situations, not just MMO cash shops. People know how much $5 is. They don't necessarily know what 1000 cash shop points is equivalent to - and most people, I'm sure, couldn't be bothered to do the math.

Another reason they use Cash Shop Points is because it allows them to set the price of cash shop items to land in-between the point packs they sell, ensuring that players will almost always have to buy more points than they need for the items they want. Further, the amount they have left over after a purchase will seldom ever be enough to purchase something else... thus requiring them to purchase more.

Here's an arbitrary example to illustrate how it's set up, using mana pots as the item in question. Again, arbitrary example to demonstrate how it's set up;  not a literal one.

Let's say a given F2P MMO sells point packages in bundles of 1000, 2000, 5000 and 10,000 points.

You decide you need some mana pots, as the ones available in game just aren't cutting it anymore (deliberately so), no matter how many you spam.

So you go to the cash shop and see that they sell different grades of MP pots. The lowest is 1500 points, but they're barely better than what drops in-game. No point in spending the money on those. Ahh.. You see that there are much better ones, almost 3x as powerful as what you've been using and much more ideal. You look at the cost for 50 of them... 3600 points. Well, the 2000 point pack won't cover it, so you have to buy the 5000 point pack. Buying the 3x MP pots will leave you with 1400 points for later purchases.

So you buy the potions and merrily go on your way.

Before long the potions have run out. Tthey certainly helped more than the weaker ones, but due to how quickly MP is (deliberately) consumed you find you had to use them more often than you'd have liked. Sure you could have slowed down your killing a bit, but that's really boring and takes too long.

So, you decide to go back to the shop and buy more MP pots. So, you have 1400 points left over... which will buy you exactly nothing; not even the weakest ones that you chose not to get earlier. Buying a 2000 point pack would give you 3400 points, leaving you 200 shy of what you need for 50 more 3x potions. Buying a 2000 pack and then a 1000 pack would cost just about as much as a 5000 pack, so you go ahead and buy another 5000 pack.

You now have 6400 points. More than enough. You buy another 3x 50-pack, leaving you with 2800 points..  You use up the 3x 50 pack and find you need even more... You guessed it, you don't have enough points for another 3x pack... gotta buy more points!

And so on and so on...

If you pay attention to the pricing scheme of cash shops, you will see that scenario play out time and again. That's another way they get more money out of players... by requiring them to buy more points than they need, as often as possible. If they used absolute $ values instead, they would only get exactly what the items are worth. A player would only have to pay $5 for that 50 pack of 3x MP potions... and they'd have a way of tracking how much they're spending.

With the Point Pack system, however, they can require the player to spend $9 to get more points than they need instead. Basically, customer is paying $9 to get a $5 item. And then, following the system I illustrated above, get even more from them over time...

Hopefully people can see how incredibly underhanded that is.

I came to that realization after playing a few different such MMOs and noticing that I never had quite enough points to get the items that would actually make a difference in my gameplay... and started paying closer attention to it.

Along those same lines, I noticed that the items that seemed to be staggered the most blatantly were the ones that addressed the most tedious obstacles/speed-bumps in the game... especially for things like consumables (MP potions, HP potions, XP potions, etc). The smaller "nickel and dime" things that they know people will be compelled to buy more often as they're used up.

And that's not even getting into how they tap into and exploit known aspects of human psychology and social behaviors to get people to spend more money. There are actually videos on that topic available right on the 'net. Someone posted a link to one of them some time back on here. They clearly explain how people think, how they value social status, and how to turn that into more $$$ for the developer by design the game to take advantage of it, specifically in the context of cash shops/microtransactions.

All of that... combined with a few other things consistent with F2P/Cash Shops is why I am so against them. They're not designed purely as games, so much as they're designed to be interactive cash machines for the developer.

I disagree with the OP about the P2W part.

in a sub MMO, buying gold or second hand chars does not make you "win". It takes you to the very same spot many other people are legitly. You might have cut the time investment but you havent "won" anything over anyone.

F2P MMOs work on a different level. There is a point that someone who doesnt spend any money will reach and possibly never surpass if he wants to keep improving his char.

At best, the game will give him a grind of such horrific intensity that few human beings can actually endure it while remaining sane.

At worst, nothing inside the game will allow him to go above that point. He will have to spend real money if he wants to grow more powerful, no ifs and buts.

And of course, someone who pays will effectively be more powerful than him, hence he "wins" over him by default.

thats the main difference that makes me consider F2P MMOs as scum

Originally posted by Sagasaint

 

in a sub MMO, buying gold or second hand chars does not make you "win". It takes you to the very same spot many other people are legitly. You might have cut the time investment but you havent "won" anything over anyone.

 

 

I disagree, if you buy gold or a more advanced character, you ARE in an enhanced position to someone who did not pay out real cash. 

You have used your real life cash to gain an advantage. I do not see how people can deny this, apart from using the semantics of the meaning of the word "win" as you did.

THB in a PvE environment I don't care about P2W, its just people paying cash to avoid playing the game they bought, it is however pernicious in the PvP environment.

Originally posted by fenistil

@Diovidius

Huh?  Expansion packs are big packs of content.

Cash shop items and gold is erm it is so diffrent that It is so obvious , I really cannot find words to explain it. Seem if you don't see diffrence we have totally diffrent understanding of core terms and why we even play games ,etc

Apperently to me it's not obvious so do you mind explaining it? How is different to pay more money for a big pack of content than to pay less money for a smaller pack but this multiple times? In theory there does not have to be a difference. In practice there is, I know that.

There is a huge difference in being able to buy items to give you an advantage with RMT as opposed to buying gold from a illegal site to give you in game currency.I will use Rift for example.In Rift there are Gold farmers who spam quite often.But buying this gold would in no way give you an advantage what so ever.You can have 10k gold , but it doesn't really help your case.People who buy gold for Rift should feel like they have just given there money away for nothing.

                 Heres why:  There is only so much you can buy in terms of gear . The best gear has to be obtained through grinding out PvP or running dungeons.You can in no way get arround that.You can buy crafted gear.But The best Crafted gear is rarely available via AH .And it wouldn't give you an advantage.Cuz that gear is absolutely no good in PvP , and to raid it doesn't cut it past a certain point.You really can't just buy a ton of mats cuz theres only so much on AH at any given time. In most cases if you are in a good guild , you will never have to use gold on hardly anything.In my guild we do high end crafting for each other .If I need a epic augment or enhancement i just ask in guild and bam. So buying Gold in Rift would give you no advantage what so ever.It just gives you gold....Which you don't actually need .So you are kinda just giving your money away for nothing if you do.

Originally posted by Diovidius

If you call having to buy expansions to stay competitive P2W then I think there are few to none mmo's which are not P2W.

Speaking of this, why is everyone fine with having to buy expansions but not fine with having to buy smaller packs via a cash shop?

Because they are used to paying for expansions. It's called Status Quo Bias. Running down the list of arguments people have against item malls, expansions hit each one.

"With F2P/Cash Shop MMOs, the entire game is designed first and foremost to get people hooked and dependent on certain things"

The same with the subscription model. It is there to create brand loyalty. Now, since most assume that term means "*swoon* I love this brand!" let me explain that brand loyalty doesn't necessarily mean high positive attitude and regard toward the brand but simply repeat purchase of the brand. A subscription creates that especially in a demographic such as the posters here who display a high resistance to change. It's reasonable to conclude that many of the people here have at least once paid the subscription for a game months after they stopped playing before finally cancelling.

"Cash Shops were implemented 100% for the benefit the developer/publisher, not the player. They're a sneaky and subversive means to nickel and dime each player for as much as they possibly can, as often as they possibly can."

There's no data to support the statement that cash shops are universally sneaky and subversively nickel and diming players.  (cue the gatchupon/gamble examples, despite there being nothing sneaky or subversive about them) If we want to deal with data and actual numbers, any search for ARPU/ARPPU info will show that only 10% of the players play anything in a F2P MMO. So that's 90% of all players paying ZERO to play:

• - no client fee
• - no monthly fee
• - no expansion free

That often comes out to about 5-7 dollars ARPU in F2P compared to the 15 dollars in a subscription game. Now... add your expansion on top   But the real problem with that quoted stance is this... :

"Cash Shops were implemented 100% for the benefit the developer/publisher, not the player."

Which commercial MMOs were NOT made to benefit the developer/publisher? It seems like part of the argument against F2P is that F2P corporations are making these services to make money and the P2P corporations are doing it for some altruistic or reason.

For most subscription games you get 7-14 days to try the game. If a dev dares to give more than that, the prophets of doom come out (again, the resistance to change) and herald that it means impending nickel and diming.

So gamers buy a box for 30-50 dollars. Why? Because if they sold the box for 5-15 dollars, MMO gamers would write it off as 'bargain bin' and never buy it. Same holds true with expansions to a degree. The MMO gamer wouldn't buy a 5 dollar expansion but they will buy a 30 dollar expansion. Actually, at 5 dollars for the expansion, the anti-microtransaction crowd would write it off as 'an adventure pack' and call it mickel and diming.

Then the monthly fee is present and, under the illusion of "everyone has full access to everything", the subscribers pay monthly to level up, do their raids and collect their epics. That is, of course, until the expansion comes with the new zones, new level cap, new skills and other cool features. To quote fenestil above

"Expansion packs are big packs of content."

Agreed. Content you are locked out of unless you pay extra for. Suddenly we now fall into the area of paying to advance, paying for additional content and not getting "all you can eat" for your 15 dollars. Bringing us to our next common argument against F2P and how it applies to expansions:

"Resources should NEVER be diverted from your live game for RMT. Bring in additional people to work that, don't take away."

It is very rare that an additional team is brought on to create an expansion. Those manhours and resources are diverted from the live game to create additional content that they will sell to the playerbase for a price above and beyond the monthly fee. This 'pack of content' is now unavailable to the player unless they spend more money above the 15 dollars they paid for "all you can eat" content.

And then there's the basic math of it. If there are 20 new features in an expansion and the player only really wants or can use a half of that, he cannot buy half o f it. It is an all inclusive bundle at 30-50 dollars. With item malls, a player has a la carte options, allowing them to spend money on just the features that they want or will use for significantly lower than what others will be paying. If a player wants to advance to the new level cap but has no desire to do the epic new 50-man 3-hour expedition to Masochist Chasm, he has to pay for both with an expansion but only the one that he wants with item malls.

Now, to clarify, this is not a F2P vs P2P post. This is specifically about how expansions meet all the criteria that people measure item malls by and prove to be significantly worse - by their stated measures - on all counts. However, people have been paying for expansions for so long that, for many, status quo bias completely overrides the logic and the math of it all.

I really don't like the concept implied by P2W.  Winning isn't something that is (or should be) inherent to an MMORPG.  The game always supplies a sense of 'what happens next', another challenge to be conquered.  When that gets repetitive or boring, the developers put out another expansion, and, Viola!, the sense of exploration and new challenges are fresh.

'Winning' implies an ending with a quantitative evaluation system.  The game may actually include that via some kind of 'leaderboard'.  But the majority of player don't pay attention to those.  They are nothing but a glorified list of someone's perceptions (speculative, not quantitative).  Chances are that on any given day, any of the top 10 players could 'beat' the another, due to the vagarities of the Random Number Generator.

But leaderboards and rankings don't cover the point of a role playing game.  It is about the journey, not the destination.  Those players at the top of the leaderboards have simply experienced more content than another player.  They're waiting for that next expansion, gloating that 'they're the best because the leaderboard says so'.  Leaderboards can't incorporate the player's wonderment on seeing the Falls of Eternity or the Great Purple Mountain on their screen.  Leaderboards don't reflect how the player feels when they climb the Great Purple Mountain, or fight the Dragon in the Ice Caves or Norvia.  Win, lose or draw, the player experiences the game in a totaly visceral, non-quantitative manner.

And that's the point of a RP game.  To entertain the player.  'Winning' either doesn't apply or applies equally to anyone who plays.   I prefer the latter interpretation.

Originally posted by Diovidius

Originally posted by fenistil

@Diovidius

Huh?  Expansion packs are big packs of content.

Cash shop items and gold is erm it is so diffrent that It is so obvious , I really cannot find words to explain it. Seem if you don't see diffrence we have totally diffrent understanding of core terms and why we even play games ,etc

Apperently to me it's not obvious so do you mind explaining it? How is different to pay more money for a big pack of content than to pay less money for a smaller pack but this multiple times? In theory there does not have to be a difference. In practice there is, I know that.

Cash Shops sell items directly. In game items you use. Mounts , pots, cosmetics , stats , weapons ,etc. Constantly added and if you want it all or even just more than few , it is very expensive.

With expansion you buy access to be able to explore new lands, fight new dungeons , learn new class ,etc  plenty price between 20-50$ depending on a game.  

So first advantage is that you don't get items out of thin air for cash.

Second you don't have official price tag on items.

Last but not least for now ,  you get much much much MORE bang for your buck.

+ more , but I really don't feel like explaining again and again at all those discussions that erupt every single day about exact same topic over and over.

I would have though that all people already caught what are diffrences and impacts that business models have on player expeninture and more importantly impact that business model have on gameplay themself.

Bottom line some people don't mind f2p / freemium or cash shop /rmt in general at least not enough to stop playing.

Some people do. I am this second breed. I find cash shops unexcuseable thing in game I play. I really loathe it.

It may be that my mmorpg playing days are coming to an end.

Some interesting replies here, but, as all threads tend to, it has grown very off-topic.  To try to bring it back on topic let me give a more succinct version of the original questions presented:

1) Are there any p2p or b2p MMO's out there in which players cannot gain any in-game advantage in PvE or PvP via spending real money, assuming these players are willing to make "illegal" purchases, or rather purchases that violate the ToS of the game, if no ToS approved cash-shop is available.

2) If there are any games out there that are like this, how did they do it? 

3) What are some methods/designs that could be used in a real or hypothetical MMO that would prevent RMT completely?

To clarify and narrow the discussion somewhat, for the purposes of my questions I am excluding 1) the original purchase price of the game, 2) any regular, timed subscription costs and 3) any costs for additional world content, whether it be in the form of traditional expansions or a la carte dungeons/zones, provided purchasing all new available additional content on a yearly basis does not exceed roughly $100 USD.  This final stipulation is of course somewhat arbitrary, but its purpose is to limit the content exclusion to a certain type of content; specifically, content that expands the game-world.

Now, one of the few on-topic replies mentioned that Guild Wars was such a game, and that it avoided all RMT advantages by making the "best" gear, items, modifications, skills, etc. easily available to all players, such that both a casual player and a player with unlimited amounts of real money and no scruples about the ToS would be on equal footing.  Can someone confirm this is the case (I have never played GW)? 

If it is the case, it confirms my speculation that making the "best" things universally and easily available is the only way to remove all RMT.  But can anyone think of another way this might occur, even if it has never been put into practice?

Originally posted by RollieJoe

Some interesting replies here, but, as all threads tend to, it has grown very off-topic.  To try to bring it back on topic let me give a more succinct version of the original questions presented:

 

1) Are there any p2p or b2p MMO's out there in which players cannot gain any in-game advantage in PvE or PvP via spending real money, assuming these players are willing to make "illegal" purchases, or rather purchases that violate the ToS of the game, if no ToS approved cash-shop is available.

 

2) If there are any games out there that are like this, how did they do it? 

 

3) What are some methods/designs that could be used in a real or hypothetical MMO that would prevent RMT completely?

 

Ad 1 ). Don't know any.

ad 2) Don't know any.

ad 3) Don't think that is possible. Unless you make mmorpg like FPS  -that everyone start at same footing and game don't provide any character advancement.  If it will provide character advancement = player character/account trading.

Still I think P2P is far better than F2P. At least for mmorpg's.

F2P works great in Moba games.

F2P do not eliminate above problems at all. Just add an option to buy some rmt advantage/items for cash from game owner + it brings all bad things linked to it.

What gets me the most is how people use the terms these days. Most of it is just complaining. it baffles me how Grind, and pay to win became everyday terms in mmo's. i dont believe you can "pay to win" in pve at all.. i dont care if someone gets a cool mount, or weapon skins or exp potions\charms as it doesnt affect my enjoyment of the game.

In pvp however i can understand buying gear with stats as being pay to win but thats almost the only instance where it affects others. also a lot of peole are talking about cash shops in p2p games. why not just dont use it. everyone uses wow as there example in everything and i played the game and like it for a long time but it was p2p and you had to still  pay for expansions

Originally posted by st4t1ck

What gets me the most is how people use the terms these days. Most of it is just complaining. it baffles me how Grind, and pay to win became everyday terms in mmo's. i dont believe you can "pay to win" in pve at all.. i dont care if someone gets a cool mount, or weapon skins or exp potions\charms as it doesnt affect my enjoyment of the game.

In pvp however i can understand buying gear with stats as being pay to win but thats almost the only instance where it affects others. also a lot of peole are talking about cash shops in p2p games. why not just dont use it. everyone uses wow as there example in everything and i played the game and like it for a long time but it was p2p and you had to still  pay for expansions

"Your gear is crap" *kick*

Originally posted by Quirhid

Guild Wars

PvP characters are all maxed out, items are maxed out and item enhancements and runes are easy to max out. I'm sure there's some "gold trading" in this game too, but you get no advantage from it. It goes well with the E-sport style PvP.

You can spend money to unlock skills, items etc. for PvP (not for PvE) from the item shop, but since you can get all the same things free from PvE easily enough, it is not that big of a deal.

A gold seller did hack my account so they exist in GW as well, but as you said they matters little in the game, at best can someone incompetent buy the best rune for the money.

WAR also have a rather limited use of money. It could at best be called semi P2win if you buy gold.

Besides them it is true. The problem is really that unlike in pen and paper games MMOs are focused on gear instead of character stats and skills. It is really not hard to make a game about evolving your character instead of just getting better gear and it would solve the problem. In most P&P games is a chainmail just a chainmail, not a level 38 legendary item and you can use it for years of play time. Of course would that upset some people that loves looting but it would on the other hand make twinkers and others who love stats and skills happy.