You forgot to mention that Runes of magic got a pretty big western makeover from it's original "Radiant Arcana", ..and then it got frogstered.

"the developers of NCsoft West and East have done an exemplary job bringing the game’s NA version more and more in line with what players on our side of the Pacific expect to see."

No, no they didn't. NCwest did absolutly nothing besides translation! Game is pretty much identical to Korean version (months behind on updates tho). That was one of the problems, NCWest didn't listen, didn't do anything, customer support was bad, bad management of bots and cheaters... Basically a lot of failure can be attributed to NCWest not to the game.

Aion could be a great game if devs gave a shit about West. It seems korean players really do have different standards than western players.

Originally posted by Beowulfsam

"the developers of NCsoft West and East have done an exemplary job bringing the game’s NA version more and more in line with what players on our side of the Pacific expect to see."

No, no they didn't. NCwest did absolutly nothing besides translation! Game is pretty much identical to Korean version (months behind on updates tho). That was one of the problems, NCWest didn't listen, didn't do anything, customer support was bad, bad management of bots and cheaters... Basically a lot of failure can be attributed to NCWest not to the game.

Aion could be a great game if devs gave a shit about West. It seems korean players really do have different standards than western players.

 

I agree that ncwest is not a great company example, but how much haven´t you played AION? Bots?! Omg, in the server i usualy use i dont see any.

But if tell me about the craft system, ok. It's terrible, but has something good, when we get the gear/weap/accessory it's kind of an orgasm ^-^

Still i have to say that Ncwest isn't doin much since the begining. We all hope that patch 3.0 (i never get tired to say this - a reason for a thread :)) will present us a all new game. I say again - I hope.

On Aion: I can't really support a game with bad customer service and faulty security. I also don't like the fact that its months behind in updates compared to Aion Korea. 

Maybe its because I'm old or something, I have zero tolerance for bad CS. If I am having a problem and get attitude or the company refuses to resolve the issue, I take me business elsewhere.

Nobody can be so bad to be completely useless. If not for other reason, we can use it as bad example. :-)) Without Asian MMO's we would not appreciate so much western MMO's. :-))

Originally posted by Boardwalker

Aion has definitely improved quite a bit since its launch. IMO it's one of the most polished MMOs available right now and a gem of a game. I'd recommend that any fan of pvp (and DAoC, since it shares some similarities) check out the free trial.

Why?  It's not like you can get to level 25 in time to try the pvp out on the limited free trial.  Still boggles me as to why they made level 25 the pvp level and not something lower.  If you can stomach the mind numbing quest/mob grind to get to 25 as fast as you can, then by all means.  Personally I've played Aion 3 times and each time I stall at about level 15-20 due to how boring and linear my progression was.

RoM: never played so i cant comment on its failures or successes

Aion: Played from CBT into launch. ...i should have stopped at CBT. i knew that the game wasnt what the devs said it would be before it launched and still bought it out of sheer boredom. After 4 months of constant mind numbing "points grind" i was done.

TERA: ...is going to be Aion 2... and not much else. They have already recanted several of the original selling points and are slowly falling into the "Aion zone".  TERA is expecting that their combat system will propel them to success... but that is only one aspect of an entire game. EM/BHS has turned into yet another Korean based MMO company that refuses to listen to their player/customer base. i do not see TERA surviving the launch of GW2 in NA.

Archeage: ...not sure what to say here... Jake has made a LOT of promises... A LOT... i really... REALLY hope he keeps them. cause if he does. Archeage will be my next "full time addiction" ...but when you consider the recent history of Korean MMO's... i highly doubt it will happen.

Don't know where ya'll are getting your misinformation about Aion. No, it's no longer a "grind". If anything, I feel like leveling has gotten too easy/fast. Faulty security? Their captcha system has cut down on account stealing by a huge amount, making it one of the most "secure" games out there in his regard. Customer service? Been nothing but exemplary for me.  Months behind the Eastern updates? Sure, but I would rather have that 10 times out of 10 than have divergent code bases developed by different teams on separate continents. Aion has been updated pretty frequently, and well, over the past 2 years, so not sure why the complaint here.

And anyone who "stalls at 15-20" pretty much fails at MMOs and should stick to CS or TF. 15-20 go by incredibly fast, especially if you do Haramel.

Originally posted by xBludx

I have lived in Asia for nearly 10 years, and I think it's clearly a cultural thing. Games are considered strictly for kids here. Any adult who plays games is pretty much considered a loser. So, designers don't really give a hoot about story or depth when they go to make a game. It's about whatever the teenage boys in the target market are into. That would be anime girl toons in high heels and playing with their friends in a "cyber-cafe."

If Asian designers want to tap western markets, they will slap on some story and do their best to figure out what they guess western players will want. They are doing it purely for cash via cash shop sales, so you won't  find what a lot of western gamers might call  "soul" in Asian games. In other words, they are not games designed by gamers for gamers for the love of a great game concept. They don't have a D&D history. They just copied the template and monetized it.

Western game designers have kind of fallen into this same mould with all the f2p game design in my opinion.

Good insight.

The 4 titles featured, though, seem to be far less immaturely developed titles than that which stains the vast majority of asian-origonated mmo's, which is what I think the premise of the story is about; an asian simpleton kids-heavy departure towards a more robust westernization within their design-board.

Originally posted by Boardwalker

Don't know where ya'll are getting your misinformation about Aion. No, it's no longer a "grind". If anything, I feel like leveling has gotten too easy/fast. Faulty security? Their captcha system has cut down on account stealing by a huge amount, making it one of the most "secure" games out there in his regard. Customer service? Been nothing but exemplary for me.  Months behind the Eastern updates? Sure, but I would rather have that 10 times out of 10 than have divergent code bases developed by different teams on separate continents. Aion has been updated pretty frequently, and well, over the past 2 years, so not sure why the complaint here.

And anyone who "stalls at 15-20" pretty much fails at MMOs and should stick to CS or TF. 15-20 go by incredibly fast, especially if you do Haramel.

I respect that you are a fan of the game. Someone has to be, the game has been doing ok for a bit.

But, I'm going to take your statement apart bit by bit.

"No, it's no longer a "grind". If anything, I feel like leveling has gotten too easy/fast. "

Right, like I said before, they had to change things and raise the drop rate to appease the western audience, off of launch and for some time it was a horrific grind. You speak of the grind in a past tense when you say "no longer", meaning that it "once was."

"Their captcha system has cut down on account stealing by a huge amount, making it one of the most "secure" games out there in his regard. "

"Has cut down" means that they did some damage control (they had to), but not after many people had their accounts hacked and stolen. They tried to blame the goldseller and RMT market, but many players claimed they did not ever do RMT. I personally know a few that were hacked and always followed internet safety protocol. Having this happen shows that they really had no handle on their security from the start. Scares new players. Captcha has been around for awhile, they should have headed off the hackers and used it from the get. When they complained and spoke with CS, they levied the blame on them and basically said its their fault. Is it only in America that the customer is always right? Isn't that a Business 101 lesson somewhere? I don't know...lol.

"Months behind the Eastern updates? Sure, but I would rather have that 10 times out of 10 than have divergent code bases developed by different teams on separate continents."

Still... months behind. I'd rather be in step with or at the pinnacle of new content if I am a diehard fan of a game like you are. Meaning, everything that is being done by you, happened a year ago to someone else. Too slow for my tastes. In WoW, when its a world first, its a world first. You do it, its a North American server first! Its updated, but are you in step when new content is released in Asia? If not, it sounds like second place to me. 

No one likes second place, Do you?

Originally posted by Inktomi

I respect that you are a fan of the game. Someone has to be, the game has been doing ok for a bit.

But, I'm going to take your statement apart bit by bit.

...

No one likes second place, Do you?

 

I appreciate your perspective, Inktomi. But it seems like you are referring to the past for the most part, while I'm referring to the present. Yes, I played the game at launch, then quit because of the some of the very reasons you point out, but now I've returned to a much-improved game. I'm just trying to set the record straight about how the game is now vs. what it was. I think people should try Aion not based on where it was 2 years ago, but how it plays now.

As for the "second place" comment, I don't look at it that way at all. I guess I'm not one of those players who pays much attention to when things happen in the Eastern version of the game. Rather, I read about the upcoming changes for the Western version when they are scheduled, and not before.

And even if I did, I look at it as a plus, because 1) changes made to the Eastern version of the game can be tweaked and polished further before they hit the West. Kinda like a built-in beta test, if you will. And 2) my point about divergent code bases is a valid one. I've worked on products with that kind of development structure, and while at first it's ok, as time passes the end-product suffers and maintenace becomes a nightmare. No thanks!  3) Having one development team lends itself to a more consistent approach to the game, and as a result, a more coherent experience for the players. 4) NCSoft can keep their costs low in the West, perhaps making the game's existence more secure as long as players continue to play.

Boardwalker, I appreciate your outlook. And though it does make some sense, as a consumer, an educated consumer most businesses have one chance to make a first impression. I am referring to the past, from my personal past experience with Aion that wasn't the best. I also looked at other consumers who had bad experiences and it taught me a few things. 

In business, you would know, you only have one chance to make a first impression. Things might have changed, thats great and all, but some players (myself included) might be gun-shy about it. 

However, I can't bash NCSoft totally, I played City of H/V for a bit and loved it. Not a bad thing to say. No problems at all. I think they are learning over time. But many are still leery.

Also, isn't Aion a bit on the theme-park side? I'm a sandbox type of guy myself, that might be another reason for my jaded opinion. I don't like the million separate server thing, I like one community as a whole,. that just my taste. It wouldn't be that much of a development hell to put both of the servers on the same time schedule, but I feel that most of the planning for new content originates in Korea (not proven fact, speculation) and that might be a reason for the lag between here and there. It is what it is. 

It's been a fun debate BW, I've got to get back to this thing called work. Check back later.

I certainly agree that a first impression is important. I've seen my product win and lose sales based on first impressions. However, I think MMos are a slightly different beast, in the sense that they are almost expected have problems at launch, but are also expected to improve and expand over time. Just look at games like Vanguard or Champions Online--both are games that had their share of troubles at launch, but over time have smoothed out their "edges" since then (these improvements are often based on player feedback). I'm not saying that this is a good expectation, just one that has become somewhat common. That's one of the reasons why I decided to recheck out Aion--I read about all the changes and though "ok, that sounds cool". As you point out, coming back to a game doesn't always happen after that first bad impression, as many people never return, even if the reasons for leaving were addressed.



As for sandboxes vs. theme parks, I prefer sandboxes as well, which is why I split my limited time between Aion and EVE. And I look at Aion in the same way that I look at DAoC: do what you need to do to level, then pvp/rvr however you want, with no rails. While I do admit to reading quest text and following through on storylines, I consider Aion to be "theme park lite" due to it's pvp endgame.





Speaking of limited time, back to work now.

Did he actually play any of those games on the list? You can experience all the content in RoM without paying? last time I checked you got killed instantly in dungeons, PvP and from normal quest bosses if you didn't dump buckets of cash into your gear.

And half your list isn't even on the market yet.

Originally posted by elocke

Originally posted by Razeekster

I don't really understand what you are talking about. Asian game companies are the ones that create most of the mmorpgs. Some of the best mmorpgs come from Korea. What game does the NA have to call their own? World of Warcraft? Oh wait, there's Wizards101... Seriously your article makes no since! Most of the games in the NA besides maybe like 10 have been translated into English from overseas, and your article sounds like it saying we have better games when we don't even have any games to call our own besides a few. Besides the carbon copy mmorpg are so easy to spot and avoid it's not even worth complaining about.

I'm sorry....but what?...let me list some for you

Everquest 1 and 2

Lord of the Rings Online

Rift

Ultima Online

Dark Age of Camelot

World of Warcraft

Vanguard

Star Wars Galaxies

Guild Wars

Asheron's Call

Dungeons and Dragons Online

and a few others I cant think of off the top of my head.  So his article, to me at least, shows we DO have better games.  Only a few non NA games stand out to me and they aren't Asian.  For example, Eve Online.

Personally, I truly am hoping that games like ArcheAge and Age of Wulin blow me away, I like the Eastern culture(s) but so far the games have been extremely shallow and seemingly aimed at non thinkers.

 

You missed my point. I am talking about numbers here. We don't make as many mmorpgs as over sea companies do. Also most of the games you listed are fairly old and not free and have lost most of their orginal appeal because so many game companies have copied them to death and made them free. Rift is the newest NA mmorpg that doesn't suck that's out there right now. I am just going to hope that Guild Wars 2 will live up to it's hype because it looks like a great game, and right now there aren't any good free or buy to play mmorpgs out there. None that I can find at least.

Originally posted by Boardwalker

I certainly agree that a first impression is important. I've seen my product win and lose sales based on first impressions. However, I think MMos are a slightly different beast, in the sense that they are almost expected have problems at launch, but are also expected to improve and expand over time. Just look at games like Vanguard or Champions Online--both are games that had their share of troubles at launch, but over time have smoothed out their "edges" since then (these improvements are often based on player feedback). I'm not saying that this is a good expectation, just one that has become somewhat common. That's one of the reasons why I decided to recheck out Aion--I read about all the changes and though "ok, that sounds cool". As you point out, coming back to a game doesn't always happen after that first bad impression, as many people never return, even if the reasons for leaving were addressed.



As for sandboxes vs. theme parks, I prefer sandboxes as well, which is why I split my limited time between Aion and EVE. And I look at Aion in the same way that I look at DAoC: do what you need to do to level, then pvp/rvr however you want, with no rails. While I do admit to reading quest text and following through on storylines, I consider Aion to be "theme park lite" due to it's pvp endgame.





Speaking of limited time, back to work now.

I have to disagree with you because MMO's are a service business. There really no product except the devs are selling you the experience. You really never own anything, even if you buy it outright. 

I really don't think Aion is a bad game, or that Asian games are bad at all. If you're going to bring up Vanguard and Champs, both games that had promise and ended up as meh. Bad reviews, low populations and an onslaught of newer games keep pushing these names father into obscurity. Bad execution.

Let's take a look at FFXI and FFXIV, both bred from a heavy hitting franchise. On one hand you have a classic MMO, my first MMO that did a lot of the right things at the right time. It was as asian as asian can get. Not many people have bad things to say about 11, because it was good when it was. I think its still good to some extent.

On the other hand, you have a state of the art current gen game that should have rocked the world. Did it? Nope, it failed miserably because people were expecting the classic Final Fantasy experience. They didn't get it and left disenchanted. Even though tons of updates and a current announcement of chocobs and airships are not going to make up for all that lost reputation. 

To me Asian, Western, Sandbox or Theme park light or extra gold, if an MMO does it for you and you can honestly say you enjoy it - then enjoy it. Don't let its countries of origin fool you, many people have subscribed to the stigma about any game that comes from the east. But go with the gut and your own personal tastes, never steer you wrong.

'Nuff said.

"lack of soul" ROFLMAO

Seriously, those who think this way have not played a quality Asian MMO where you have to PAY-TO-PLAY rather only played the poor quality FREE-TO-PLAY.

It's absurd to compare a F2P Asian MMO to a P2P Western MMO....it's simply stupid.

Quality MMOs are P2P regardless of who makes them, western, eastern, doesn't matter. The only MMO that is attempting to break this mold is GW2 and we still have to see it to believe it.

*EDIT: typo

Originally posted by kyrawolf

There is much I find admirable about Asian culture, but that does not include their games.  I find them shalow and childish and a waste of time.  I wish MMORPG would put country of orign in their games list, and save us all some time.

 

I couldn't have said it better myself:  They need to CLEARLY LABEL what country the developers are working from so I can just pass up the piece of garbage rather than waste my time finding out after spending money.

Originally posted by jvxmtg

"lack of soul" ROFLMAO

 

Seriously, those who think this way have not played a quality Asian MMO where you have to PAY-TO-PLAY rather only played the poor quality FREE-TO-PLAY.

 

It's absurd to compare a F2P Asian MMO to a P2P Western MMO....it's simply stupid.

 

Quality MMOs are P2P regardless of who makes them, western, eastern, doesn't matter. The only MMO that is attempting to break this mold is GW2 and we still have to see it to believe it.

*EDIT: typo

 

Quality pay to play MMO, eh?  Like RF Online was?  Anyone who argues the quality of an asian game is either a gold farmer or asian.  

I love them, great graphics, more challenging and overall just better.

Only thing I really hate with my deep soul are "westernizations" of asian games I prefer Asian MMORPGs cause they aren't as dumbed down as western games if people can't stand them go play one of the thousand western easymode games.