Nothing.

But taking a group of players and flanking a position with magic and arrows flying while they scramble into the shields and blades of the melee; that's priceless.

It's worth every complaint a care bear cares to spill.

Originally posted by PukeBucket

Nothing.

But taking a group of players and flanking a position with magic and arrows flying while they scramble into the shields and blades of the melee; that's priceless.

It's worth every complaint a care bear cares to spill.

What's truly priceless, is when the so called "hard core PvPers" whine and complain that no one wants to play with them after they've driven away all of the "carebears", aka the vast majority of gamers.

In my mind, this is one of the reasons that cross server PUGs were the worst idea of all time.  Server repuatation means nothing anymore.

One of my favortite periods in history was WWI particularly because of the stories of flying aces.  It was the last age of chivilrous combat.   It was not unknown for a flight to come over enemy territory, with full risk of doing so (no white flags), to drop a wreath on the airfield of a fallen but RESPECTED opponent.

I know what you're thinking.  You silly boy, Scrog, you actually used the word RESPECT in this day an age.  You are a silly old man! :)

Sure, the age of chivalry is dead in modern warfare.  As well as in just about all other walks of life. 

Oh, and to those who say it's just a game... well, we use games and sports to teach sportsmanlike conduct, team play and other values to help our children through life.  How we relax says much about us as a culture.  I mean, if you have no respect in games, then I'd say it's likely that you also have no respect for others in anything that you do.  It's a character thing.

It's not illegal to be a complete effiing jerk!  So why not be one then, right?

Originally posted by Ceridith

Originally posted by PukeBucket

Nothing.

But taking a group of players and flanking a position with magic and arrows flying while they scramble into the shields and blades of the melee; that's priceless.

It's worth every complaint a care bear cares to spill.

What's truly priceless, is when the so called "hard core PvPers" whine and complain that no one wants to play with them after they've driven away all of the "carebears", aka the vast majority of gamers.

You would kind of have to go out of your way to find that kind of thing happening in fairness and it would certainly be being done by the minority (like the task of the repeat ganking of newbs is done by). Most players I would venture, in games like Darkfall actually bemoan the lack of 'newbs' due to the inane grind involved and want it to take less time for newer players to reach a level of competitive parity.

There is certainly more crying done about ffa pvp and ganking by those who have never actually played a game with said rulesets and that is indeed priceless.

I have two nub killing stories to recount. Both are from WoW, so if you're not a fan of WoW, don't read.

My friend was in the troll starter zone with the quest to kill the pigs. He finds a pig, attacks it and BAM...he's dead. WTF? He respawns, finds a pig and same thing happens again. It takes him a moment to realize that the pig is a level 23 and it's flagged for PvP. It was an alliance player hiding near the rocks waiting for his pig to get attacked, and then killing the horde players. My friend hops on his level 80 rogue and proceeds to kill the guy a few times until he ran over the mountains towards Ratchet to get away.

I was derpin' around near Crossroads on my hunter at level 70 (when that was the max level) with my friend who ended up being known as 'The Defender of Crossroads' because he spent so much time defending it. Anyway, a level 35 dwarf hunter runs up and dances around. I wave at him and so on, not really thinking about it. My friend wants to gank him and is being purposely rude, etc. Thinking it would be kind of funny, I drop a snake trap and run a deer across it. The snakes kill the deer, then they attack the dwarf. The snakes in the trap back then would attack anything, and could get people flagged for PvP. Anyway, the little dwarf guy dies. I really did not think he would die. Needless to say, he respawned and ran off, thinking I was going to camp him. I tried to following him miming "Wait" with the lame emotes. Finally I logged out and created an Alliance character and apologized for inadvertently killing him.

Finally, again derpin' around near Crossroads, back when I was level 49 (Horde) I agreed to duel a level 19 hunter who had been dueling a level 19 Alliance rogue. I removed my gear including weapons and put my pet away and then proceeded to punch the level 19 player nearly to death. I was actually a little worried that I would lose...I was pretty low on health. After the duel I'm just kind of turning around, not really paying attention to anything and the level 19 rogue sneaks up and back stabs me from behind, killing me. He tried to sprint away, but several other players were there and they promptly killed him. He still got the kill though.

Those are all the lowbie killing stories I have.

I had fun for most of that, but I never really went after any low level players...there just didn't seem to be much point in WoW or most other games. You don't accomplish anything, you don't teach the new players anything...it just seems really pointless.

Originally posted by bunnyhopper

Originally posted by Ceridith

Originally posted by PukeBucket

Nothing.

But taking a group of players and flanking a position with magic and arrows flying while they scramble into the shields and blades of the melee; that's priceless.

It's worth every complaint a care bear cares to spill.

What's truly priceless, is when the so called "hard core PvPers" whine and complain that no one wants to play with them after they've driven away all of the "carebears", aka the vast majority of gamers.

You would kind of have to go out of your way to find that kind of thing happening in fairness and it would certainly be being done by the minority (like the task of the repeat ganking of newbs is done by). Most players I would venture, in games like Darkfall actually bemoan the lack of 'newbs' due to the inane grind involved and want it to take less time for newer players to reach a level of competitive parity.

 

There is certainly more crying done about ffa pvp and ganking by those who have never actually played a game with said rulesets and that is indeed priceless.

It's happening on a wide scale, it's just not so noticeable these days.

Back during Ultima Online, it was very noticeable. Prior to the addition of Trammel (non-PvP lands), the subscriberbase started to shrink, quickly. The majority of those quitting cited that they were fed up with being PKd all the time when they just wanted to go about their business in the game. Which was why Trammel was added, and it was by far a hit. The vast majority of the player base, literally in less than a day, shifted from the old FFA PvP lands, to the non-PvP lands the day they were released.

The only reason why it was like this back then was that there were no other options in MMOs. Either you played UO and put up with FFA PvP, or you didn't play an MMO. These days, there's plenty of choice, and hell even most PvP ruleset servers are vastly toned down PvP compared to FFA PvP. So the driving away of new players does still happen, but it's mostly a repelling force keeping players from even trying said games, rather than it is direct occurances of people trying those games, getting ganked, then quitting -- though that does still happen.

Just look at how "popular" the FFA PvP MMOs are... not very, and there's a good reason why.

Originally posted by Ceridith

Originally posted by bunnyhopper

Originally posted by Ceridith

Originally posted by PukeBucket
 

It's happening on a wide scale, it's just not so noticeable these days.

Back during Ultima Online, it was very noticeable. Prior to the addition of Trammel (non-PvP lands), the subscriberbase started to shrink, quickly. The majority of those quitting cited that they were fed up with being PKd all the time when they just wanted to go about their business in the game. Which was why Trammel was added, and it was by far a hit. The vast majority of the player base, literally in less than a day, shifted from the old FFA PvP lands, to the non-PvP lands the day they were released.

The only reason why it was like this back then was that there were no other options in MMOs. Either you played UO and put up with FFA PvP, or you didn't play an MMO. These days, there's plenty of choice, and hell even most PvP ruleset servers are vastly toned down PvP compared to FFA PvP. So the driving away of new players does still happen, but it's mostly a repelling force keeping players from even trying said games, rather than it is direct occurances of people trying those games, getting ganked, then quitting -- though that does still happen.

Just look at how "popular" the FFA PvP MMOs are... not very, and there's a good reason why.

Citing crying from gankers in an event that happened years ago is looking pretty hard for it I would argue.

Yes, there is a good reason why ffa pvp mmos these days are not very 'popular', low quality products with inane grinds and little to no working content.

Sure full on ffa/looting is much less popular than other forms of pvp but if you think ffa pvp is the major issue with a game like Darkfall or Mortal Online then you really need to think again. One would assume that if you had to spend over9000 months to level up in WoW and/or you spent 99% of your time filling in bug reports to a totally inept developer that game would also have zero subs, or would it's lack of popularity be down to it's causal pvp in your mind?

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Originally posted by bunnyhopper

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Originally posted by Ceridith

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Originally posted by bunnyhopper

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Originally posted by Ceridith

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Originally posted by PukeBucket
 

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It's happening on a wide scale, it's just not so noticeable these days.
Back during Ultima Online, it was very noticeable. Prior to the addition of Trammel (non-PvP lands), the subscriberbase started to shrink, quickly. The majority of those quitting cited that they were fed up with being PKd all the time when they just wanted to go about their business in the game. Which was why Trammel was added, and it was by far a hit. The vast majority of the player base, literally in less than a day, shifted from the old FFA PvP lands, to the non-PvP lands the day they were released.
The only reason why it was like this back then was that there were no other options in MMOs. Either you played UO and put up with FFA PvP, or you didn't play an MMO. These days, there's plenty of choice, and hell even most PvP ruleset servers are vastly toned down PvP compared to FFA PvP. So the driving away of new players does still happen, but it's mostly a repelling force keeping players from even trying said games, rather than it is direct occurances of people trying those games, getting ganked, then quitting -- though that does still happen.
Just look at how "popular" the FFA PvP MMOs are... not very, and there's a good reason why.

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Citing crying from gankers in an event that happened years ago is looking pretty hard for it I would argue.
 
Yes, there is a good reason why ffa pvp mmos these days are not very 'popular', low quality products with inane grinds and little to no working content.
 
Sure full on ffa/looting is much less popular than other forms of pvp but if you think ffa pvp is the major issue with a game like Darkfall or Mortal Online then you really need to think again. One would assume that if you had to spend over9000 months to level up in WoW and/or you spent 99% of your time filling in bug reports to a totally inept developer that game would also have zero subs, or would it's lack of popularity be down to it's causal pvp in your mind?

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The type of game or server being played on has little relevence to the issue in my mind.

Maintaining a sense of honer does not mean that you can't kill the enemy!  So then, it's a matter of style, right?

So, let's say you are playing in a FFA open world faction model and you see a player that is somewhere that he should not be.

What's your goal here?  Teach him a lesson?

Great.

Then flex in front of that person if you want lol and say; "you don't belong here.  You need another 10 to 15 levels before you have a chance of surviving.  You may go.  HOWEVER, I make this warning only once.  If I see you here again I will kill you swiftly and without dishoner because you have been warned".

If that person is smart, he'll go away.  Now he's out of the zone just as if you'd killed him!

Originally posted by lizardbones

 

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I've got to agree with bunnyhopper here. The problems with DF and MO are not the ffa pvp mechanics. Those games could have a LOT more subs than they do now.

 

Speculation is all well and good, and trying to place blame on DF and MO's low subscriber numbers on bugginess is plausible, it still doesn't change that history has shown trends where FFA PvP is largely avoided like a plague by most gamers.

Honestly, I highly doubt that even were DF and MO flawless with regards to bugs and polish and content that they would be significantly more popular than they currently are. FFA PvP in general is simply just an undesirable game mechanics for most gamers. And before you cite Eve as an example of otherwise, realize that the majority of players in Eve spend most of their time in high sec space to avoid the FFA PvP aspect of the game.

Originally posted by Ceridith

Originally posted by lizardbones

 

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I've got to agree with bunnyhopper here. The problems with DF and MO are not the ffa pvp mechanics. Those games could have a LOT more subs than they do now.

 

Speculation is all well and good, and trying to place blame on DF and MO's low subscriber numbers on bugginess is plausible, it still doesn't change that history has shown trends where FFA PvP is largely avoided like a plague by most gamers.

Honestly, I highly doubt that even were DF and MO flawless with regards to bugs and polish and content that they would be significantly more popular than they currently are. FFA PvP in general is simply just an undesirable game mechanics for most gamers. And before you cite Eve as an example of otherwise, realize that the majority of players in Eve spend most of their time in high sec space to avoid the FFA PvP aspect of the game.

Nice speculation...

And which quality, non bug ridden ffa mmos have shown how ffa is avoided like the plague? Darkfall, MO, Earthrise, you can't mean any of those as they are a mess. So are you just harking back to UO again? One would "speculate" that the market is ripe for a quality ffa product and whilst it would not gain anywhere near the number of subs a AAA casual game may (no one is arguing that though are they) it would still be popular.

Oh and you don't avoid the ffa aspect in hi sec, you reduce your chances of being killed that is all.

Nevermind, I'll leave you to the crusade.

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Originally posted by bunnyhopper

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Originally posted by Ceridith

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Originally posted by lizardbones
 

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I've got to agree with bunnyhopper here. The problems with DF and MO are not the ffa pvp mechanics. Those games could have a LOT more subs than they do now.

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Speculation is all well and good, and trying to place blame on DF and MO's low subscriber numbers on bugginess is plausible, it still doesn't change that history has shown trends where FFA PvP is largely avoided like a plague by most gamers.
Honestly, I highly doubt that even were DF and MO flawless with regards to bugs and polish and content that they would be significantly more popular than they currently are. FFA PvP in general is simply just an undesirable game mechanics for most gamers. And before you cite Eve as an example of otherwise, realize that the majority of players in Eve spend most of their time in high sec space to avoid the FFA PvP aspect of the game.

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Nice speculation...
 
And which quality, non bug ridden ffa mmos have shown how ffa is avoided like the plague? Darkfall, MO, Earthrise, you can't mean any of those as they are a mess. So are you just harking back to UO again? One would "speculate" that the market is ripe for a quality ffa product and whilst it would not gain anywhere near the number of subs a AAA casual game may (no one is arguing that though are they) it would still be popular.
 
Oh and you don't avoid the ffa aspect in hi sec, you reduce your chances of being killed that is all.
 
Nevermind, I'll leave you to the crusade.

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Originally posted by Ceridith

Originally posted by PukeBucket

Nothing.

But taking a group of players and flanking a position with magic and arrows flying while they scramble into the shields and blades of the melee; that's priceless.

It's worth every complaint a care bear cares to spill.

What's truly priceless, is when the so called "hard core PvPers" whine and complain that no one wants to play with them after they've driven away all of the "carebears", aka the vast majority of gamers.

A smiley? Should've ended with /nohomo

Regardless, top PC games are all player vs player games. All MMOs that make it tout it as a major feature.

PvE only MMOs fizzle out pretty quick. 

So, you're wrong. No smiley needed.

I would certanly be ok with the ability to do so if it had consequences which affected that higher players end game.  Nobody thinks games should mirror every day life, it's part of the reason we play games - to escape to another reality.  

With that being said, there needs to be some type of dynamic stopgap which will force the accumulation of a "bad rap" to said person who continuously ganks lowbies.  I would presume some type of loyalty loss or something along those lines.  Your main faction could get pissed off enough to stop allowing you to enter the city without, say, bribing the guards and maybe lose acess to "teleportation devices" or some such.

I think you might find that if there were actual consequences to actions in games (whether good or bad) people would use judement before proceeding rather than using the standard internet-anonymous conscience.

Originally posted by PukeBucket

Originally posted by Ceridith

Originally posted by PukeBucket

Nothing.

But taking a group of players and flanking a position with magic and arrows flying while they scramble into the shields and blades of the melee; that's priceless.

It's worth every complaint a care bear cares to spill.

What's truly priceless, is when the so called "hard core PvPers" whine and complain that no one wants to play with them after they've driven away all of the "carebears", aka the vast majority of gamers.

A smiley? Should've ended with /nohomo

Regardless, top PC games are all player vs player games. All MMOs that make it tout it as a major feature.

PvE only MMOs fizzle out pretty quick. 

So, you're wrong. No smiley needed.

Are you guys even talking about the same context?

Originally posted by Quesa

I would certanly be ok with the ability to do so if it had consequences which affected that higher players end game.  Nobody thinks games should mirror every day life, it's part of the reason we play games - to escape to another reality.  

With that being said, there needs to be some type of dynamic stopgap which will force the accumulation of a "bad rap" to said person who continuously ganks lowbies.  I would presume some type of loyalty loss or something along those lines.  Your main faction could get pissed off enough to stop allowing you to enter the city without, say, bribing the guards and maybe lose acess to "teleportation devices" or some such.

I think you might find that if there were actual consequences to actions in games (whether good or bad) people would use judement before proceeding rather than using the standard internet-anonymous conscience.

I really like your post, Quesa, and agree w/you entirely. I've been thinking of some potential consequences, for ganking, myself. They may work and offer a more level playing field, or they might fail miserably.

Let's say we're playing Douchebag Empire Kingdoms Online. I'm a level 85 Douchebag Rogue and you're a level 5 Knight of the Entry Level. As it stands, my rogue has 60,000 physical attack power, 40,000 physical defense, and another 40,000 magic defense power. Your knight has a physical attack power of 200, a physical defense of 400, and a magic defense of 400. So...I'm stealthing into the starter zone, lookin' for some fresh noob meat to pwn. I see you, in the middle of doing your daily quests and think, "Lol, ima pwn this fail noob. Lol, noobs are so fail." So...I sneak up, right behind you, and BAM! Backstab you for 60k damage, although you only had 1k hp. "Lol, you just got PWNED, noob! /teabag".

So...I already know where you're gonna respawn at, so I cast "haste/swiftness/run faster" or what the hell ever. I make it there just as you're about to step out of the "safety ring" and BAM! I PK'ed you again...but something is different this time. Last time, I hit you for a full 60k of damage, but this time...I hit you for 30,100 damage. FTW?!? I open up my character sheet and notice that my physical attack power HAS INDEED been dropped to just 30,100, my pdef and mdef are now just 20,200 each. Again...FTW?!? This is somehow YOUR fault, so ima just PK you again. HA! 1-shotted you again, but this time...only 10,300 damage?!?!? What's happening to me?!?!?

Every time I PK'ed you...my own stats for physical attack, magical attack, physical defense, and magical defense were added to yours, then DIVIDED BY TWO by the server. So...I can still gank lowbies for awhile, but eventually, I'm going to be a level 85 with the stats of a level 15 (or less), pretty soon. How can I raise my stats again? Two ways. I can defeat (not just fight) people with higher stats than me, or...I can wait for the server cooldown/reset that will put me back to normal, but it'll take two to four weeks (I haven't decided yet). Basically, I'd like the penalty to be cumulative and take its toll, whether through time (not playing) or forcing gankers to pick fights with people who can actually defend themselves. I'd thought about dropping their stats like this and then having the servers kick them back into a high-level zone, though with their "balls" cut off. On the flip side of this, if I defeat someone more powerful than me, I get a substantial buff to my stats for x-amount of time. Again...this whole thing could curb a lot of the crap, or it may not work at all. Who knows.

Originally posted by PukeBucket

A smiley? Should've ended with /nohomo

Regardless, top PC games are all player vs player games. All MMOs that make it tout it as a major feature.

PvE only MMOs fizzle out pretty quick. 

So, you're wrong. No smiley needed.

What exactly are you smoking?  The biggest mmo by FAR is clearly a PVE-focused game (WOW).  Name one PVP-focused game that has more than 1% of the market.

Don't get me wrong.  I like PVP in the right forms.  I'm just pointing out that your statement is really off the mark.

One shot killz FTW. I admit I did it a couple of times for the lulz, I used to go to the auction house in Stormwind and kill the NPCs and maybe 2 or 3 players if I had the time before the guards or players sent me back to the nearest graveyard. The challenge was to stay alive as much time as possible :D

edit: for the Horde!

Originally posted by zaxxon23

Originally posted by PukeBucket

A smiley? Should've ended with /nohomo

Regardless, top PC games are all player vs player games. All MMOs that make it tout it as a major feature.

PvE only MMOs fizzle out pretty quick. 

So, you're wrong. No smiley needed.

What exactly are you smoking?  The biggest mmo by FAR is clearly a PVE-focused game (WOW).  Name one PVP-focused game that has more than 1% of the market.

 

Don't get me wrong.  I like PVP in the right forms.  I'm just pointing out that your statement is really off the mark.

Eve? Even matket is pvp there.

Originally posted by robert4818

SWTOR announced that you would not be able to make your way to the opponents starting world and gank starting players.  It did not say that they removed PVP, that it would only be instanced PVP, or that once someone left the starter planets (around lvl 20 or so) that you couldn't attack them.  ONLY that you you couldn't go and gank brand new toons.

Nerd rage followed from the PK community.

My question is WHY?

Why is the ability to kill brand new players so integral to the playstyle?  Why does the temporary ability to avoid ganking cause so much hate and discontent?

SWTOR has a PK community?