Been a long time since I've thrown something out here, and I got an interesting concept for you. Actually, a trio of concepts rolled into an IP that is seemingly impossible to provide a complimentary MMO for. While the concept is truly in the vein of a diplo-enthused FPS-FFAPvP game such as Face of Mankind, the social aspects and absolute cutthroat nature of it would resemble EVE Online.

Based on an IP I am working the kinks out of, where each additional book entails a different form of information warfare going on in the heart of Seattle, WA (the central location for all events). The core 3 books are as follows, though I lack a good name for the IP itself (taking suggestions);

Red Eye - The night culture revolving around recreational drugs expands into milk bars where you can lace your drinks with a plethora of legalized pharmaceuticals, one of which is a hallucinagen that allows a person to astral project if they are able to control it. This leads the central character to experiment with the bounds of this ability (telepathy, possession, etc), where he thens runs across a group that has existed for centuries who have used this power to gain control and keep their enemies down through covert operations. If you know a person that hears voices... yeah, these people are likely messing with him.

Mode of Info-Warfare - Sight-jacking similar to the Siren series, with some other rules;

• When active, you *must* complete the timer of the skill (which depends on the dosage taken) as it cannot be cancelled, and you cannot use it again for a 24 hour period due to the dangerous nature of overdose/toxicity. Players can attempt to return to the state, but with extreme risks.
• Avatars under this state will appear in a meditative stance and have a sleeping mask on. Opening one's eyes during the drug's peak causes stroke, brain hemorrhaging, and distinctive blood clots in the irises. Unexplainable occurances can happen when a subject is given a clear overdose and then opens his eyes during the peak. People can disappear, explode, implode. Consider it an "improbability field generator" created by an extreme influx of information. This can be used as a last resort tactic if caught while eavesdropping to take out everyone in the room with you.
• Allows you to view any character around you within 75 meters from a 3rd/1st-person persepective and pan the camera around them, if applicable. From there, you can jump to another target within the same distance from it's perspective, effectively moving anywhere on the map. Chat/audio of each target is relayed, so long as you remain at that "node".
• You can still see your immediate surroundings through a black and white tunnel filter, to denote your use of sound/touch to generate a visual image. Control over your own body is given through jilted movement and twitching, as you are not fully inhabiting it (think silent hill zombies), but you are ambulatory enough to move from your location and raise a gun to someone. The range of vision in this mode is short, but can be extended by touching a wall.
• If within 30 feet of your first target you can possess them briefly, but they will regain control and have moments where the player or NPC can attempt to fight back - much like two people fighting over the same control input, in spurts. This can be used in tandem with a moving vehicle to allow drive-by possessions, and thusly explains why the suicide rate is so high in Seattle. In the book you would need to have the target notice your presence to possess them, I can figure this into some kind of system to force a player to lock you as a target.
• Two players in this state are unable to recognize each other unless jacking the sight of some other character. Within the tunnel-vision of viewing one's self, any other person in this mode will appear invisible, only to fade in view briefly if they make a significant noise or bump into the one another. Then a lock can be made, which forces both parties to notice each other.

• A dedicated forums and brnegowser is available in-game from any computer/terminal. It doesn't actually allow you to view outside data, and instead presents news coverage and other sites relative to the game, each with innuendo related to events going on. This site is one of many, but provides an actual use to "engineering a situation", quite literally.
• The forums of this fairly-hidden site provide a stage for cutthroat flame wars and ploys against your enemies by spreading bullshit. Arguments get read, minds get made up, it really is a powerful tool with that alone.
• A rumors section allows people to post one rumor every week, and it has a chance to come true. The way it comes true depends on many factors, with the most common one being other players helping the rumors come true. That's right, no hocus pocus, just simple "enticement". Other times a GM might take it upon himself to create the event from the shadows, if simple and not gamebreaking.
• Every once in a while the mysterious admin will email a random player (by lottery), and basically grant them a wish. The parameters may be an issue, as I figure a drop down menu of outcomes/etc may be needed. I'm still trying to figure out how to make this part earth-shattering, while completely automated. You should be able to say "xXxsephirothxXx will die permanently" and have that guy fear for his f**king life that anyone who read it may want to make it come true.

• The fictional science behind this is that our universe runs on a certain unified frequency, and therefore is a parallel existence both above and below our own. This is found using microwave technologies in the book, and developed for use with a common cellphone in the game. You can pull it out, aim the camera in a certain direction, and if something hidden is there, it will flicker like static. You can then create a field to bring that object to your reality. This can be used to both find hidden items, and place a stash for later at almost any location.
• This part of the game also adds a horror element to the rest, as many random places will have one of many different objects, at any given time. The alleyway you always frequent might freak you out with a door in a strange place that seemed to exist for a moment, or until your camera panned away. Maybe that door has nothing behind it, maybe it leads to some ditch under a bridge, maybe it will burst open with fleshy bits and drag you in. Exploration, surprise, sounds great on paper.
• In the book they eventually get the devices to work like a time machine by reversing the polarity of the local area's frequency to set them back up to 3 minutes. This led to a 'reverberation', though, as the event leading up to the device's usage repeated indefinitely. I would like to be able to have some kind of "Sands of Time" device for this, but its really hard to fit (logistically) in an online game. Taking any suggestions, really.

These seem more like single-player games.  Otherwise, the best manner of implementation may be browser-based.  Avatars seem unnecessary for most of your concepts, just information.  

There was a single-player game a while ago... forget the name.  It was supposed to access your email, txt message you, etc. with clues to the game.

 A drastically revolutionary MMO might take that concept a step further with your ideas.  An IRL cell-phone ap that implements your final concept.  An actual forum website (with GMs acting as moderators) for the second.  

The first concept...  it would require a graphic interface, but I see no real point to it.  It needs a purpose in order to be a game.

I remember that one Tertiary. If I recall correctly, people got freaked out by it and it tanked :( Seems with the majority of people being utter morons, mixing reality and gaming is a dangerous thing to try and attempt.

Some interesting concepts there, but I agree with Tertiary that they sound better suited for a single player experience than an mmo. From a purely financial perspective, if something is too different from the norm it'll be to get enough people on board to make it viable.

FTP Browser-Game or Phone Ap with ads could make some money off those concepts fairly cheaply, tough part is getting it off the ground.

EDIT:  And, yeah.  I don't think it was ever even released.  Such a cool idea, though.

Ha, you're right. The 2nd one would be great as a Mafia-Wars type app, and the 3rd as even a point-and-click adventure, but for the sake of the discussion I'll still try to describe why it would fit by adding more context to the game... but great idea though, I am going to keep it in mind and see where that kind of mentality fits my other work.

As for a purpose to all these trying to gel in the same game, beyond the linked IP;

Game World

• A free-roam mock version of modern-day Seattle, with liberties taken with some monuments.
• FFAPvP in a setting where players choose to join a faction that has a role in society (police, organized  crime, etc).
• All factions have branches that are able to determine their own standings with other branches and factions, each with a particular role withing the greater subset. As an example, The SCPD is split into three branches that would each have a different job, be it raids on the criminal sets, or checking up on prison releases and acting diplo to get informants. A player would choose what side of the fence he wants on, then what role he wants to play in all the drama.
• Information warfare is key to set up a situation in your favor, whether it be remote assistance from a sight-jacker, an entry point through hidden 'artifacts' (the psuedoscience term for objects between the"up/down" dimensions), or by staging a ploy through the rumor-site.
• No player has a name floating over their head, and even if within range to lock onto a target (30 feet) their name is not shown in the hud until they either tell you what it is in local chat, write it down on a note and hand it to you, or if an officer searches you and checks your ID. I'm sure you can imagine the interesting situations that would abound from this.

Character Progression

• There is no typical levels, nor are there skills to grind, though, I would like to apply something like that to social interactions like fishing and dancing. All other skills are on a tree where levels can be applied to certain skills through an "experience wallet", much like purchasing perks. All skills have 5 ranks, all skills can be maxed out eventually. Experience is only gained as a mission reward.
• There are attributes for your character that are chosen at creation, but I am still working on them. The idea is that they determine your character's look, so you can see another person and have an idea what his stat layout is. A burly guy pumped some strength modifier, a skinny guy will run slightly faster, and the expression on their face will give an idea as to how the character will deal with the "mental trauma" of certain abilities (like possession, whether attempting it, or being the victim of it). A fierce look would let less fear in, a paranoid one would give boosts to the locking feature, allowing you to recognise others. All attributes can be modified over time through routine actions (exercise, etc) and self-medication (booze, smokes, prescriptions, etc). Risky, I know.

Combat

• I am still figuring on whether to use the target-locking action as a mechanic for combat, leading to something similar to the original "The Getaway", tweak it to be more like GTA, or let it be free mouse look and have the lock only for logistics. Either way, it will have an emphasis on light firearms, brawling and melee weapons.
• Concealing a weapon as to not stand out is paramount, cops are onto it. When you have a smaller weapon stashed on you, as in *not* in your hand or a visible holster, there is a concealment rate figured in that may allow you to pass a patdown (but not a metal detector). A large gun like a 45 caliber would have a 13% rate, while a 22 would have a 60% rate, with skills considered into that (on both ends). If the weapon is not found on the first try there is a 5-minute timer till the chance is reset, the cop can pat you down all he wants and won't find anything, or he can have another officer try.
• Paranoia is a key facet to the entire series, so I want to make it a mechanical device, but because of some of the logistics that concern it in Red Eye, I have some probs adapting it to this. To put it most basically, anyone who has control over the ability to project develops a kind of "hive mind's eye" where they are, in fact, tuned into every living person around them while in the trance. They can remember what anyone else was doing during the hour or so that they were under, even if not actively watching through them. This is triggered only when the person in the trance meets the target, and the two acknowledge each other through sight. It also erupts in moments where the person will feel like he is watched, because he is, only to turn around and lock gazes and have a flood of information come in. I'm trying very hard to consider that as some kind of recorded log you can view, but thats tricky, and will no doubt involve peer-to-peer sharing of in-game footage, and would be a nightmare... but I can figure interesting things into the locking feature, like simply knowing when someone has locked onto you through a subtle emote.

Mission Structure

• There are two kinds of missions; the voice-acted storyline ones across the city, and the randomly generated ones all faction branches get every 24 hours. The former is something done solo, or in small groups, to get your story fix. The latter is where meat is, as entire factions have meetings on how to handle it, and split the duties up to all members and task forces.
• Storyline missions will never lock you out based on your choice of friends, but some dialog may change to suit the situation. There is an arc for every faction in the game, which new players are encouraged to do first, in order to help guide the idea of where to go at the end. After that, they are generalized to suit the major plot points and encompass all users.
• Random missions are not much more than a text log of something that needs to be done, or at least close to completion by a deadline. Examples given would have to suit the faction considered, as the cops would be given a beat or watchlist, scientists would be given a task to map the new artifacts on the city map, criminal organizations would be hustling a various supply of illegal goods.
• The goal of it all is money, at a personal level, and at a faction/branch level. Budgets and pay bonuses are raised through unified efforts, as well as "war rations" and other conceivable losses. Costs are taken out at a faction/branch level to resemble overhead, and other upkeeps at a personal level, such as rent for personal housing and food/drink exist.

• I am trying to figure in permadeath w/ consequences, but it's quite difficult (beyond use of the rumor site). As is, the idea is to have a player hit the ground and require an NPC ambulance pick-up. You can't fire on them while down, but if you could, that would be the way to permakill - execution. I either want the player to instantly blink to the hospital, or have a blurry first-person ride in the ambulance till there. The former route is probably the best, but the latter allows for some interesting escort situations.
• Release from the hospital comes with an aggrivated injury with a placement directly proportional to the places struck in combat. A melee fight may result in broken limps or teeth, a gunfight may end up with various bullet wounds. Head shots take a longer recovery and have a random timer between 2-5 minutes before your character wakes from a coma with head bandages on.
• Imprisonment is very similar to Face of Mankind, a game that shines as an example to making player-detention somewhat fun. Players accrue a "bond" amount instead of criminal points, and i am even trying to figure in player-courts to this. The higher the bond amount before arrest and detention, the longer your stay is. You can either wait it out, work some of it off, be broken out, bribe your way, etc, etc. There really are tons of options, even in the pen.

• Here is an interesting take I hope catches on; instead of one giant conquest map, a handful of role-defined territory maps. In this case 4 (so far), and I am trying to attach a catchy name to each map. What exists at the moment are the District, Empire, Trade and Science maps. The idea is that every faction already *owns* the whole map, but has to divide it amongst itself and be diplo about it. Their enemies take space on the same map on their own agendas, and its just the paths crossing that sparks the rest.
• The District map can also  be called the "order" map, and is the divided juristdictions of all 3 branchs, further spliting them into local flavors of the whole, each trying to expand their own budgets and territories. They put together resources for major missions (called cases for them, and it works differently than anything else, not getting into it this round) but try not to handle business in another groups territory and usurp the point values for themselves. It's all a contest to see who is the most productive.
• The Empire map handles all the crime organizations, which still need ironing out, but consist of triads, stereotypical mafia types, biker gangs, etc. Like all territory lines at launch, they are predetermined, but the territories here will move around drastically once the general standing of each player faction works its way out. I'm writing in some general lore about the history of these groups, in terms of their encounters with each other and the other factions, but really, politics could go any direction with this group. It's very interesting if you think about it.
• The Trade map (which needs a new name) is for the more industry-related factions, and you can look at it like a map of where they have both the best relations, and market control. So far I only have 2 factions, both pharmaceutial companies that branch into other products (one went kitsche everyday products, and the other did land investment). These factions will generally play for any side that pays them, diplo is kind of hard to deal with when talking to your supplier.
• The Science map is for various factions that deal with the paranormal. Haven't deeped out on it yet, but it will most likely involve a government-aligned bureau and a privatized one. They, like the police factions, work towards a common goal by splitting up all the goals to cover during mission time, but want as much territory (and budget) to keep for themselves. They will generally deal with the exploration and PvE hidden in artifacts, as well as trifle with all the other crazy shit going on in this town.

You've made quite a challenge for yourself here GT.  Any 2 of the 3 options you're looking to combine seem to fit together fairly easily, but the third sort of brings down the house of cards.  My thought is there is something unbalanced about the 3 elements, in a strange way 2 of them will share a strong underpinning that the third doesn't.  (I have no clue how much sense that makes).  Without the restrictions of IP,  IMO they could be drawn into harmony fairly easily ( ie cyberbrain version of Red Eye, or drugs to sense the other dimentions in Recognizance).

I like the idea of a purgatory styled prison.  A period of time with very limited and less "productive" options sounds like a good thing.  I also like the territory control, although I'm trying to picture the layer interactions (which may or may not be an issue in your design).  I'm thinking depth here could be crucial to longevity, in part because I picture a rather loose social structure to the game.

I can totally see that...

The 3 are part of an 'Eerie Indiana' form of "same city, new characters and unrelated events of pure crazy" that work in a book format, but yeah, I see it. In a way, the 3 just don't mesh together, *but* they do in kind of a 'love triangle'. Rumors + Spying, Spying + Hidden Features, Hidden Features + Rumors. I can't see a situation where all three facets are used at their peak, but I could look towards the current complementary focus and work from there.

Also, I was leaving the thought open that you could astral project the other dimensions you can't exist in (though, technically you do already exist there - it's quirky that one), but was never going to actually cover it beyond introducing the thought in discussion outside the books. Just not going there, because I feel the only route involves space marines with intimacy problems.

In-game prison was handled well enough in Face of Mankind, there were things to do when there to help speed up the timer, as well as some fun in trash-talking the players guarding the place from break-in's (which were often enough). You'd  see tons of people walking around while squat to complete the goal "find the soap". Great stuff, just needs to be taken further. Also a very interesting social environment, there's always a dude selling smuggled shivs for crazy amounts.

Territory control is iffy for sure, but the main idea is that there is a police, criminal, industy and science organization in control of every corner of the map. As these lines of division change, it means you usurp territory from your competitors and may make new enemies (or allies) from the other factions working their roles on the same turf. It could be chaos, but would be interesting either way. Politics and trying to salvage your faction's good name would mean a lot, as new players are basic citizens looking for which way to go in the end. Maybe the cops will be dicks to everyone and make a large swing towards their rival crim organizations, maybe the crims will go overboards and send them all to be cops. The beauty of it all is that the social interaction sets the stage for *everything*, and you can totally push it forward with a goal structure (missions).

A random thought just occured to me for the perma death.  Let me set the stage with this, there are 2 prisons- a county jail and a federal pen.  County would be for your shorter lock ups, and likely be a place players end up fairly often.  Federal (or state if that fits better) would be for longer lock ups, I'm not sure of the dividing line for this though.  How does permadeath come into play, by allowing players to shank and brawl beyond incapacitation in the federal pen.

This sort of makes the federal pen something of a battle ground.  Once you've killed it is a life sentance (ie you can only leave by being broken out), but this serves everyone well.  There would be a subset who would crave the "life or death" aspect of this, but we also contain it to a limited situation that borders on voluntary (making the federal pen would require considerable effort).

As for the territory control,  I like it.  If anything I'm just stuck on envisioning the frame work for those interactions.  Pretty much an issue of how the server handles flexible faction to faction alignments and what actions players would be able to do to influence that.  I consider the need for some self balancing among the factions.  I've always thought that ladder tied influence over a faction is a nifty way to do this, sort of a serve in heaven or rule in hell thing.  It does this because a weaker (low pop) faction will tend to offer far more potential for advancement than the stronger (high pop) faction.  The problem is in finding the sweet spot where collective (faction) and individual strength within the system balances well.  Maybe it is that lense I see through that in some way is limiting my ability to see a structure for the layer interactions?

Actually the astral projection thing, to me could balance the triangle in an odd way.  If it was drug induced, it would compete with the telepathy on the toxicity meter.  Likewise, the field generation to pull things from other dimentions could compete for energy (battery life) with the "wikileaks" website access.  Maybe a 3rd action pool, "sanity" could balance out the competing interest pyramid of actions.  That is each action would have 1 primary pool that is a secondary to another of the actions.  So the psychic actions would drain the toxic window heavily, with say possession drawing down sanity somewhat.  The website would hammer sanity but also be a weak drain on energy.  Finally, shifting things between dimentions would be a big drain on energy and dowsing (the search for those objects) would be a mild toxic addition.  Something like this might pull it together.

Holy shit dude, you're on fire!

1. The dual forms of penitentiaries is genius. The threshhold could be based on a logical "bounty" amount, as expressed earlier. Probably between 250k and 500k, maybe a mil. Those threshholds could be set by vote by all players (1 character per server or account anyway) through players becoming government officials and pushing it out there. I absolutely love the "do the crime, do life" aspect of permadeath, with being busted out, only to remain most wanted on the streets thing. Though, with that kind of setup you'd imagine there's no need for two kinds of prisons, but really, that bounty threshhold is what will make the difference here. You'd have to work hard to be a shithead, and then deal with it. It's perfect, though I would still like to enter a form where a target can be marked on the streets, then gunned down once prone. Would just take extreme measures (or countermeasures) of some sort, that nobody really wants to do.

2. On territory control, I've had to really put in some thought to come out with nearly every possible conclusion, considering the setup. If I were to present a visual to you, like I would in a tutorial video, it would be like a meeting room with an old-school projection device that uses clear film overlays. It would be a map of the city, with 4 different slides to place on top, each showing the different lines. As an example, of hundreds;

If we looked at, say, a science firm's territory, it would show the many blocks under their watch. If they decided to move in any direction, they would not only usurp zones from their competitive allies, but cross over into territories owned by others. Say they want to move east, into not only a new police district, but the biker gang's territory. If they are having beef with the new neighbors, they might convince their enemies to help them push them out and reclaim it. Or maybe they are really cool, but the cops are corrupt. You can pick an ally and do what needs to be done, through a mixture of force and strategy. Just tons and tons of backdoor deals and politcal/war moves can be done. It's a game the cunning will excel at.

As for population balancing rules to the factions, they only exist for certain ones, namely the police. Players will be commissioned to handle a juristdiction based on many factors. Whether that be it's low population or just needs a stronger force because of rivals. Other factions can pretty much do what they want, but the police and government types, because of their granted powers, are forced to meet requirements when it comes to placement. I would say you can only pack 2.5x (or less) people in one distract, than that of the averaged whole. This may be something that passes through general votes too.

Also, there will always be dominant forces, so my plan is to spread the choices thinner, and have a layer of aesthetics that would matter to the player. Sure you wanna go criminal, but what flavor? All that needs to be put in place is failsafes to prevent the complete wiping out of a faction, like a home territory that never changes. They can't be destroyed, but they can hit hard times.

3. Your complementary rules for the three are on the right track, but need a slight tweak. Off the top of my head the three pools would be; Sanity, Toxicity and Powergrid. The latter effects the city as a whole through rolling blackouts or odd localized events. One would cause the most stress (+), while the other causes moderate.

Sanity would be taxed by usage of Rumor+ and Red Eye events.

Toxicity would be taxed by Red Eye+ and Recog events (radiation?)

Powergrid would be taxed by Recog+ and Rumor events. I have to say it's pretty creepy to link the two this way, kudos. I may actually roll with that in the canon.

Still need more to it, but awesme so far. Red Eye gives me a lot of logistical problems, and the one here is that the drug itself would have to add a set amount to toxicity, to where it ticks down, and the endured usage of the greater powers draw from sanity. Because of that, the pools would have to work and react differently, which I figured would be the case anyway.

Sanity would shift drastically / Toxicity goes up fast, comes down slow, and comes with specific buffs/debuffs (in this case, the many altered states) / PWgrid is affected by everyone around you, and prolly localized to what area you are in. Also need to see an equally 'themed' tradeoff for the other two powers now.

The question is now - what happens when each bar runs out, or conversely, gets too full? (working on it)

Since we can both punch out some walls of text:

1)  My thinking on this is jail would be a fairly common thing.  In a way it's similar to GTA, the gameplay drives you to break laws but do so in a concealed way.  Being busted adds a legitamacy to that.  With that said, I was picturing the federal pen as Thunderdome with fights usually being to the (perma)death.  Because of those 2 concepts, I saw a need for the separation.

This comes with another advantage, they can be very different experiences.  County might offer more "good behavior" quests and maybe some weak self improvement options.  Federal would offer better self improvement options but few if any "good behavior" options.  Additionally, if the Thunderdome aspect is there, it would be a considerable challenge to ever serve your time.

2)  I sort of follow this, I guess the hangup is I don't think of science as a territorial thing.  I can see the police having precincts with a minimum area, but battling for some extra blocks (and the funding they provide).  Crime makes sense in the same way, although with a smaller permanent areas.  Trade sort of makes sense in a world of manipulation, market access and employee bases being compelled to work and shop at their area's rulling facilities.  However, science seems a big stretch under this method, especially if they tend to be focused on pharma.  Then again I guess the area could be valuable for cross dimentional assets.

Still, if you were making a visual I'd prefer a flow chart (as messy as it would be).  Essentially, I'm trying to figure out how each layer benefits and depends on the others.  Why would a lab care which precinct they are in, or which syndicate controls the local hoodlums?  (The trade layer makes sense)

3) Glad that was in some way helpful, even the twisted but somehow right feeling connection on the power.

As for what happens?  Let me ask first, do you want this to be on display or hidden?   I sort of like the idea that it isn't a visible pool, and that effects come in a partial (75%) and full blown form (100+%).  I'm thinking:

• Toxic- the partial would be a greying vision (sort of like COD's near death view) with incapacitation at full effect
• Sanity- a high volume of harmless "ghosts", at full effect some "ghosts" cause physical harm
• PWgrid- visually an electric effect but it raises patrols in the area, at full effect it leaves a residual effect that the police can track making escape very difficult

hm the prison part brings out (at least for me) the same question current RL prisons do - why do you have prisons (punishment) when they do bring more or less enjoyable experience?

1) I get where you are coming from, but the whole "prison thunderdome" with televised (or othewise) fights has been done to death. There would have to be some amazing twist or adaptation to it for me to use it, and in that case, it had better be good enough to make a 4th book. Will have to ponder that one a while.

The part about "good behavior release" vs "self improvement options" is a great tradeoff though.

2) The industry/trade factions deal with pharma, the science ones deal with all of the oddities at hand (the three core devices), but deal primarily with the Recog events. They would get missions to scout for artifacts, test the rumor site's probability (or help alter it, heh), etc. The territories are basically the same as everyone else, except seperate entities with similar goals. Figure if the FBI had a paranormal investigation unit that was at odds with a privitized company financed by Starbucks and the Virgin empire billionaire. It's in their best interest to aid each other, but it's still a "race for science" in order to get grants.

~and yeah, I do need more visual aids.

3) I'm glad you asked about the hud; hidden - but tapping/holding tab shows your vitals, along with two locking options I think fit the systems here. Tapping it turns your head to the nearest target and cycles to the furthest from there, showing their information, or the lack thereof. Holding it lets you scan freely and shows the vitals of whatever the cursor is over in real-time. This would add a visual aid of your character actively scanning the crowd, maybe even emoting more depending on situations.

As for the bars going empty, I would like to have something for when they are full too. Similar to that HP idea I had about the pulse going too high or low, I really liked that one. (In fact, I still need a method of traditional HP to suit combat damage still)

Toxic - (high) depending on the current states afflicted, any number of death animations that will put you in the hospital. Poisoning, frying, etc. Whatever is the most current, or prevalent one. (low) Nothing, but I would like to see maybe a "sober" clarity buff that effects Sanity.

Sanity - (high) Maybe an overdrive boost to Red Eye abilties and prevention of fear/paranoia debuffs. (low) Your character reacts less intuitively and is visually freaking out.

PWgrid - (high) Would happen for a relatively short time, and I need to figue out why it would happen, but environments would glow brighter and electrical grid assets will spark. Could help jolt people sane briefly. (low) The town obvious goes dark, but queue amibent background sounds and some kind of "fear of the dark" sanity debuffs.

______________________________

@ Benedikt

Like Ghst said himself, prison is a way to balance out the chaos by taking the presence off the streets, albeit temporarily. It's not GTA or APB, but would be prone to fits of the same kind of crazy. If you ask me, setting a lull like that makes the suspense more intense. Also, consequences to actions are needed in particular, due to the nature of the social gameplay - it needs to be guided in order to make the kids play nice (most of the time).

Originally posted by Benedikt

hm the prison part brings out (at least for me) the same question current RL prisons do - why do you have prisons (punishment) when they do bring more or less enjoyable experience?

If this was RL we could discuss the virtues of punishment vs rehabilitation in a penal setting.  However, in an MMO punishment is pretty much impossible.  Consider how any form of death penalty is largely rejected in the market.  The moment you talk about full or even partial loot, the game has gone niche.  Consider what prison would take away from the player.  Achievers- lose out, as jailed time would offer some of  the slowest advancement.  Explorers- prison would be quite confined with little to discover.  Socializers- it would be easy enough to limit their contact with the outside world.  Killers- honestly as much as they won't admit it, they don't want a fair fight (prison would tend to level the playing field).  In this way, punishment is built in- IMO there is no need for further punitive measures (other than perhaps some repeat offender mechanic).

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1) I'd agree it is an overused angle in a general sense.  However, it would be new ground in an MMO.  Still, I wish I had a good wrinkle to throw at it, but I'm stumped.

2) I sort of follow, but I think the gaps have to do with not having the factions (per layer) a bit more defined.  Obviously, I'm not looking at a full lore, but rather is there anything beyond aesthetics (and the area they occupy) that make the competing groups different from each other?

3) I'm a bit different, I would entirely hide those 3 pools from the player.  I'd certainly include visual/audio clues.  To get an exact fix on them  would require other players or consumables.

If I remember that idea correctly, a pool being too high or too low came with both advantages and penalties.  I don't quite see that in what you've listed, although I'm sure it can.  If that pros/cons model is the intent, I think that would be a bunch of fun.

This has been one of the most fun threads I have read here in weeks. Keep up the great work, ghst and GT!

Originally posted by ghstwolf

Originally posted by Benedikt

hm the prison part brings out (at least for me) the same question current RL prisons do - why do you have prisons (punishment) when they do bring more or less enjoyable experience?

If this was RL we could discuss the virtues of punishment vs rehabilitation in a penal setting.  However, in an MMO punishment is pretty much impossible.  Consider how any form of death penalty is largely rejected in the market.  The moment you talk about full or even partial loot, the game has gone niche.  Consider what prison would take away from the player.  Achievers- lose out, as jailed time would offer some of  the slowest advancement.  Explorers- prison would be quite confined with little to discover.  Socializers- it would be easy enough to limit their contact with the outside world.  Killers- honestly as much as they won't admit it, they don't want a fair fight (prison would tend to level the playing field).  In this way, punishment is built in- IMO there is no need for further punitive measures (other than perhaps some repeat offender mechanic).

I like your approach to this, but it's not my particular reasoning behind it. It's good shit though.

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1) I'd agree it is an overused angle in a general sense.  However, it would be new ground in an MMO.  Still, I wish I had a good wrinkle to throw at it, but I'm stumped.

The only thing I can think of is a black market organ ring using prisoner parts, but I think that was touched on in Manhunter already. Maybe something good will come to me in the right situation.

2) I sort of follow, but I think the gaps have to do with not having the factions (per layer) a bit more defined.  Obviously, I'm not looking at a full lore, but rather is there anything beyond aesthetics (and the area they occupy) that make the competing groups different from each other?

Well, the idea is that a faction's greatest enemies can be seen as their immediate allies. The cops could work deals with anyone else, but there is just no negotiating with their own kind when they are looking to cover their personal interests. Seeing as how each faction is role-defined they will never really tread on another's toes, unless it's actually their job to - and that could rise from any situation, controlled or not. If I were to break up the factions into what they actually do;

Policiers - Investigate player-on-player crimes, arrest criminals, keep up on prison releases, etc.

Criminals - Either help or attack the other criminal sets, petty crimes, smuggling, theft, extortion... tons of shit.

Industrialists - Landgrabs, product R&D, privates production/sales to other factions (needs more)

Scientists - New artifact maps, horror-themed PvE missions that suggest inviting combat ready players of a faction that owns the territory the anomaly is in, probability generators (for both the artifacts and rumor site) that will allow more desired outcomes. (needs more too)

I do feel like there might be a role-set or two that's missing, if you have any suggestions I'd be all for it.

3) I'm a bit different, I would entirely hide those 3 pools from the player.  I'd certainly include visual/audio clues.  To get an exact fix on them  would require other players or consumables.

I honestly think you have the better idea here, but I would like to have some indication as to where they are at - without adding uncomplementary effects or annoying mechanics. If you could plug into the grid to see where everything is in real-time, it would be nice, but not very effective if you are trying to look our for, or wait for, a specific occurance.

Oh, how would you respond, as a player, to a myriad of cell-phone apps that can handle this?

The cellphone is already a key device in the game that is used (and emoted) when using tells or having private chat rooms that dont involve local space. It would make sense that anyone looking down at theirs could be doing *anything* from texting, to looking at a "mood ring" app to check sanity levels. Oh shit, it's red!

~and thanks Lok, this one really is a brain stimulator.

I generally like mechanics (policies and philosophies too) that can be justified from many directions.  IMO it just makes that position a stronger one.  In a way I tested the Marginot Line from the west. 

1) Why use organs, when you could go all "universal soldier" with it?  The dead are collected, restored and completely reprogramed for use by ... ?  It could be a lot of fun to have an NPC freak out because seeing you drags up memories (obviously, you'd have to attach the friend list to the re-animated dead).

2) LOL, I was thinking small for a moment.  Let's focus on criminals for a moment.  Are there functional differences between the Triad, mafia types and biker gangs?  Is it just a cosmetic and aesthetics thing?

I get they would all have their hands into everything, but would each group have it's own focal activity?

3) Part of that was to build a bit of player interdependence, plus it could be pretty funny.  Needing to pee in a cup in a video game, or taking a 2 question bladerunner inspired psych-test (with a manual answer option plus random default responses), seems like it could be sort of fun.  As for plugging in and reading the grid, I'd almost prefer set terminals for tracking those abnomalies.

The last one gives an element that IMO every MMO has failed at.  Rarely if ever can groups work together from far apart or by doing completely different things.  Typically, everyone involved is present and engaged in some portion of the trinity.  But, whether or not it fits here: I want a game where an Oceans 11 style operation is possible if not preferable to a death squad rolling room to room.

Originally posted by ghstwolf

1) Why use organs, when you could go all "universal soldier" with it?  The dead are collected, restored and completely reprogramed for use by ... ?  It could be a lot of fun to have an NPC freak out because seeing you drags up memories (obviously, you'd have to attach the friend list to the re-animated dead).

No way, super soldiers are more token than telvised felon fights. I'm starting to feel there is no need to attach a spin to why people could be forced to fight to the death, it could just be one of those "on a whim" things that the players patrolling the federal prison could arrange.  There could be number of areas suited to close combat tha allow people to be herded to them, locked in, then granted shivs and told that only one person is leaving alive. Everyone there can place bets on it, etc, but it's mostly just a terrible interaction that's allowed to happen.

This leads to a problem, though. Who should have the power to be present in order to arrange it? Also, how do you make sure the people running the place don't off the prisoners themselves?

The cop faction would handle county jail, and allow fist-fights, but even weapons snuck in wouldn't permakill. There would have to be a government aligned faction (FBI, etc) that has access, and it would help add tension to the cops' side, but is it something you can join outright? Or have to work for? ~each has it's problems.

I do figure I want GMs poised as CIA agents, it just makes sense. Everyone hates dealing with em, but they are the only people that can get the job done. They would visually call in fixes on their cellphones and are granted permission to be snarky. It would also be sweet if they could be used to set up a little bit of chaos between factions during lulls, and nobody could bitch that the GMs are interfering with player-matters because that's what the CIA does best. A cache of weapons could be sold to the russians and they'd get away with it.

~Oh, also I was thinking about a medical faction, that handles the ambulance pickups and maybe surgeries, etc. My main idea is to have no NPC driven cars in the game, that way the streets are clear, but pedestrians make up a major part of gameplay for asking questions about mission goals, or good diversions. Also, there are costs associated with damage to the car and public property that is handled through insurance premiums, so it's in every player's best interest to drive safe - for once.

2) LOL, I was thinking small for a moment.  Let's focus on criminals for a moment.  Are there functional differences between the Triad, mafia types and biker gangs?  Is it just a cosmetic and aesthetics thing?

Mostly aesthetic, and I am now thinking about having racially-aligned criminal elements as ancilliary factions (you can't join them, but their presence exists). Might be interesting to have NPC factions and diplo I guess. Otherwise, the differences are in outlook. Gangs are about money and reputation, Bikers are about motorcycles and personal freedom, mafia-esque types (and it's hard not to go with Italians or something, lemme tell you) would be about business ethics and filial duty. It really would weed out the players based on the lifestyle they would rather emulate.

I get they would all have their hands into everything, but would each group have it's own focal activity?

Well the rackets at hand are determined by the highest ranking players, and can be *anything*, then assigned as faction goals ala dailies. There are many illegal goods that can be moved; firearms, drugs, people (NPCs). It's just about getting away with it, and then maybe changing up your habits when things get hot in that market. Hands in many, many pots... and depending on what pot the hands are in, and where, there might be beef with other crimnal empires.

3) Part of that was to build a bit of player interdependence, plus it could be pretty funny.  Needing to pee in a cup in a video game, or taking a 2 question bladerunner inspired psych-test (with a manual answer option plus random default responses), seems like it could be sort of fun.  As for plugging in and reading the grid, I'd almost prefer set terminals for tracking those abnomalies.

I'm in the same camp as to hidden UIs, but I do want evidence of many different factors going on, simply because the quick access to that knowledge can change things, and would be necessary for this kind of game, and suits the modern tech influence. Though, what you suggest does displace the players to different areas in order to relay this info, which is also a great outlook. I have to think about that one more.

The last one gives an element that IMO every MMO has failed at.  Rarely if ever can groups work together from far apart or by doing completely different things.  Typically, everyone involved is present and engaged in some portion of the trinity.  But, whether or not it fits here: I want a game where an Oceans 11 style operation is possible if not preferable to a death squad rolling room to room.

Now there is something that is still missing in this game; custom guild/groups.

You could totally stage an Ocean's 11 robbery, if such a thing was within bounds, and even have each member of the operation having key roles across all the available factions out there - but outside of "the plan", their unity doesn't exist. There is no label that shows others they are "The Maginificent Seven", who break the roles in the game in order to create their own - perhaps as bounty hunters (which doesn't exist atm). They can work that out with other players, but not with the game itself. I need a way to have players create associations, regardless of alignment, that might even allow an alias. Perhaps through hidden internet communities that mock the very idea of how online guilds exist in the first place, kind of like how Durarara! had that "online gang" of random-ass people thing going on. It fits the rumor site end of it all, but I need to dwell on this as well.

Late Edit;

I think I have a good basis for the fed prison setup, been working on a story behind it. So far it doesn't suit the paranormal aspects of the 3, but it can have a psychological tie-in through Clockwork Orange style rehabilitation.

It would be a mix of tastes from movies like CO, Felon, Rainbow/Sleepers, etc. About a corrupt (but understandable) guard that abuses his role within a program that experiments on lifers and shorter sentences that are willing to waive some time for being a guinea pig. Drugs, therapy and "shock" stimulus (not literally shocking them). He would go a bit further with it by pitting the scum amongst scum against themselves, knowing they are better off dead, but all the while hoping that somone survives his run long enough to be released and continue a crusade on the wicked - on the guards behalf. So either way, he sees himself as doing the world a favor by having these people get rid of each other, while programming the survivors to go vigilante should they ever make it out. Even then, they'd likely kill a few scumbag before dying themselves, it's win/win.

Originally posted by GTwander

I think I have a good basis for the fed prison setup, been working on a story behind it. So far it doesn't suit the paranormal aspects of the 3, but it can have a psychological tie-in through Clockwork Orange style rehabilitation.

It would be a mix of tastes from movies like CO, Felon, Rainbow/Sleepers, etc. About a corrupt (but understandable) guard that abuses his role within a program that experiments on lifers and shorter sentences that are willing to waive some time for being a guinea pig. Drugs, therapy and "shock" stimulus (not literally shocking them). He would go a bit further with it by pitting the scum amongst scum against themselves, knowing they are better off dead, but all the while hoping that somone survives his run long enough to be released and continue a crusade on the wicked - on the guards behalf. So either way, he sees himself as doing the world a favor by having these people get rid of each other, while programming the survivors to go vigilante should they ever make it out. Even then, they'd likely kill a few scumbag before dying themselves, it's win/win.

I really like this direction (although actual shock treatment could be cool).  Personally, I like the idea of strengthening the psychological side of this concept.  Paranormal + psychological = a great ride especially when you aren't sure where the line between them is.

I had a random thought that hasn't had a good segway into it until now.  Are the toxicity and sanity pools fixed, or can people (through some as yet undiscussed method) change their limits or the pool's behavior?  That is do junkies build a tolerance?  Can they become addicts (needing a fix to be "right")?  I ask because I can see a place for it but I'm not sure you want to go there.

If you do want to go there, those experiments could tweek those pools.  Unsanctionable experimental tests and treatments could modify how the pools react.  This is also why actual shock treatment could be cool.  While toxic and sanity are internal pools and make sense that their windows could be changed, the powergrid is external.  What if exposure to modulated shocks could increase the player's "sensitivity" for tuning the microwaves (making the player more efficient)?

2) Given the choice to go mainly aesthetic when it comes to the differences and the setting, I'd go Russian for the Mafia.

3) Maybe a 2 tier system of knowledge?  Independently you could "know" a loose range (25% blocks), but that to run the bleeding edge (where 1 or 2% matters) you'd need some sort of independent help.

Originally posted by ghstwolf

I had a random thought that hasn't had a good segway into it until now.  Are the toxicity and sanity pools fixed, or can people (through some as yet undiscussed method) change their limits or the pool's behavior?  That is do junkies build a tolerance?  Can they become addicts (needing a fix to be "right")?  I ask because I can see a place for it but I'm not sure you want to go there.

Pools are capped at 100 'naturally', but can be changed through the stat/aesthetics system and consumables. Addiction was something I was thinking about omitting, but with the idea of tolerances in hand there can be a lot of interesting rules. The only thing I considered for addiction was that the first usage of something will never proc addiction symptoms, but that can now be worked in mechanically as the first usage will unlock a pool that can branch out into other catagories or like/substances.

~an interesting thought. Since the pools have effects at both ends of the spectrum, I have to think harder about how speccing will work. You'd think that adding to the sanity pool would make a person more clear-headed, but it just makes it harder to get full and get the buff there. The problem I haven't considered is how to determine the baseline of the pool, and I may have to think back to that HP idea from a long while's ago.

I also want a status effect system where you can get any from hundreds of buffs/debuffs, each with ludicrous descriptions. When you get shot, drink a can of soda, or have the lights go out on you - every outcome will have an effect on your pools (still working on a HP system, perhaps stamina too... there needs to be more complimentary pools, and each with unique usage).

If you do want to go there, those experiments could tweek those pools.  Unsanctionable experimental tests and treatments could modify how the pools react.  This is also why actual shock treatment could be cool.  While toxic and sanity are internal pools and make sense that their windows could be changed, the powergrid is external.  What if exposure to modulated shocks could increase the player's "sensitivity" for tuning the microwaves (making the player more efficient)?

I would keep the changes to drastic alterations of your statistics, if there was something you could only get in the federal pen I would consider it a huge design flaw. There is the idea that if you survived the fed pen you could walk away almost superhuman, but then everyone would want that, there has to be a balancing factor - whether through inherant risks of exposure, or added rulesets that would make many actions forbidden.

Examples;

If there was shock therapy, as in zappy zap, maybe they could cause more drastic levels of change to the powergrid through their own actions that effect it - but there has to be a setback. Maybe they are more afraid of anything electricity related; power outlets randomly spark and scare the character, staring in a computer screen for too long causes hallucinations, the overloading of a local area (brightness) would cause them to see ghosts (artifacts, rather) and cause a worse debuff than fear of the dark.

If it was more psychological, and killer-related, there would have to be some "idioms" the character has to deal with from then on. Maybe they can't attack anyone without a weapon readied, because they are too afraid to kill an unarmed man because of the punishment (that would be the prison rule for permadeath, weapon only, and works good as a plot point too). That would always make sure they never really have the drop on anyone with all the kickassery up their sleeve. Other minor things would be nice too, like flashbacks from certain stimulus that heavily effect sanity, and good old-fashioned compulsive hand-washing after killing (for like 2-3 hours).

2) Given the choice to go mainly aesthetic when it comes to the differences and the setting, I'd go Russian for the Mafia.

I'm looking for a classic mob archetype that doesn't have to be "old country", and doesn't cater to a single nationality, but there really is nothing else to base it on. Though, the Russians are more of an untouched criminal element, and it does fit the location more than Italians. I might go with that, but might go the same route as the Triads and make them purely NPCs groups. I guess the Player criminals will have to be the more American evolutions of outlawdom.

3) Maybe a 2 tier system of knowledge?  Independently you could "know" a loose range (25% blocks), but that to run the bleeding edge (where 1 or 2% matters) you'd need some sort of independent help.

A two-tier skill system? I'm kinda lost in translation, so I hope you have an example I can peruse.

I left it half baked before because addictions and tolerances would be an element that isn't critical to the game unless you include it.  In a way it is a bit early to consider this as the interdependencies of the pools seem a bit too malliable to build upon just yet.

I didn't intend for the federal pen to be the only option for modifying the pools and  I'd certainly place other options into the world.  The prison ones would likely be more random in their effectiveness and always come with a major drawback (idioms or in the impact to another pool).  I'd then include a more established but still unauthorized treatments, solid results with maybe 50% chance of a major drawback.  Finally the officially sanctioned treatments, minor but predictable results.

2) Maybe opening that layer up so that it is player driven sets acting as franchises to the organized factions would work.  I'll probably have to explain that better once I get a better picture of how that would work.

3) Let me try that again.  A player would only have an estimate of where they are without the aid of another player/consumable.  By that I mean a player might know what quintile they are in (the 60-80% in toxic) but without a test they wouldn't see that they are at 68% toxic.

Let's say you have a task in mind and because you know the system, you also know the dose to get that task done will add 30% toxicity.  All you can see is that you are in a quintile where there is a 50-50 chance you'll die taking that dose.  Fortunately, you have an instant test kit handy.  You use it and it comes back that you are 68% toxic, so you now know you can withstand the dose you need to take.