I agree with some of the OP points and have some solutions that I think would solve most of the issues although not for the reason we would like.

First of all, Team Speak, I agree it does split those on TS from those off TS, and as a result when on TS I hardly ever look at the chat window in an mmo, but TS is not to blame, the MMO is for not providing a good enough alternative to TS, if WOW supported TS for example, then when I join a channel in chat it auto joins me into it in voice, or when I am in a guild I am instantly in guild chat voice, the only option I see is to fully supprot voice so that people will no longer need to use TS o Vent because it will be fully supported and become the norm for all and not just a small elite.

The other issue is grouping, another thing I agree with, and I am one of those lone wolf players, I love being in a guild but I also love going off at my own speed, bottom line is I level fast and play hardcore hours in the guilds iv been in less than 1% were ever able to keep up so playing solo became the norm for me, so solo play is important , as well as group play is important, so what I would suggest is that people in groups should get a massive bonus, it should be a bonus to damage, to the amount of gold they earn to the amount of exp they earn enough that simply grouping with people becomes the fastest way to level and earn in game, also make sure that any drops dropo for the player as unique drops and not drops that all party members see, another reason players farm solo is that they dont want to lose the item their farming to a bad dice roll, so remove that and give each player unique loot from a mob drop.

And finally, for the love of all things in the universe, MAKE DEATH MATTER, really ? come on, I feel so sorry for all these young gamers, they look at a harsh death penalty and think omg no way, and yet they have no clue just how good it is when they actually play it, new younger games seem focused on exclusivly obtaining the best stuff with minimal risk its shocking, and a little depressing, take any pug in wow if you make a stupid mistake in a raid your kicked, its not for making a mistake its because your making it take a little longer for the noobs to get their epics, the mmo sphere has become nothing more than a single player game that just happens to have lots of other players in doing their own thing.

I not only BLAME WOW, I blame the gamers for not having the balls to stand up, cancel their subscription and let their voice be heared, becasue mouthing off on the forums while your still paying them is not letting them know what you think, you have to get their attention where it matters, their wallets.

If wow dropped 50% of its subbs, and people told them in the note as they canceled why, that game would change drastically in a matter of weeks as they rip it appart to ajust things to be more like we want, but they never do this because enough of us have nt yet given up and canceled!.

STOP SUBBING TO WOW, let them hear your voice.

and bears dont forget to blame bears

Originally posted by Master_M2K

Originally posted by simmihi

*snip*

I love the GW2's approach, in fact that's the only game i care about now, along with Funcom's TSW. But this dynamic events and Open World grouping leading to socializing... i have my doubts. My strong feeling is that people will come, group, do the deed and go, no one will say anything. Just like in War, just like in Rift.

I want to have "other things" to do except combat and crafting, and yes minigames and such are a good start.

Well it really depends on the kind of player you are. A game cannot make you socialize against your will.

If you're a social gamer, then you will socialize if the game gives you an opportunity to do so and that's what the Dynamic Events, Dungeons, World v World v World, Activities and others parts of Guild Wars 2 will provide. The opportunity to socialize with with other social players. Heck, even in a solo-orientated game like Rift, I was able to make a couple friends just because the Zone-wide Invasions made seeing the same couple of social people into a common occurance.

You speak true words, yes, i am the same kind of gamer and my firends list is huge in rift, mostly due to open parties. But when i join an open group, i say hello and i get no replies, it kinda turns down the spirit.

Originally posted by Dvalon

I not only BLAME WOW, I blame the gamers for not having the balls to stand up, cancel their subscription and let their voice be heared, becasue mouthing off on the forums while your still paying them is not letting them know what you think, you have to get their attention where it matters, their wallets.

STOP SUBBING TO WOW, let them hear your voice.

Ever came to your mind that majority of WOW subscribers are actualy getting what they want ? Ppl who post on forums are not majority, they may be vocal, but nothing more than vocal minority.  Ppl do vote with their wallets, if WoW would be such bad game they wouldnt be paying for it.

@OP: soloism doesnt kill mmos, if anything makes them more mainstream. I just dont see what some ppl see so interesting on forced grouping for every part of content.

What is problem is that not only soloing hurt MMORPG's but new mmorpg titles , activelly encourage soloing , very fast levelling mean that it is very hard to find someone for grou quests , instances , or just exploring and questing together since even if you play with someone but then you are not playing for 1-2 days and that person is playing , you log back and there is like 5 levels diffrene betwen you two.

Also since mmorpg worlds are made "on rails" when you re pushed to follow exact route and there is not much beside that apart of some field filled with mobs and then you hit "mountain walls" , there is little reason to explore world in a group.

Next thing is , even if there is group quest it provide NOT enought of a reward.  Since everyone are levelling very fast , finding a group to do group quest can take like 30 min - 1 hour , then you go do this quest which take another 30 min + , and then finally after 1,5 h - 2 h it is done , but many people just think about rewards vs time ratio and then realize that is they stayed solo and did solo questing for 2 hours they would get much more xp , gold , whatever.

I am not thinking like that but many ppl do.

So in order to game become more social they have to be DESIGNED that way.

Levelling , or player advancement (in skill based games) have to be MUCH slower, there have to be more at least OPTIONAL opportunites for grouping , and group quests , and other activities have to give BETTER rewards than solo , if they won't give better rewards then most ppl won't group it is that simple.

Beside that games have to be more complex , not only questing from quest hub to quest hub. There have to be more exploration , economy have to be much more player made and not drops made and Item Shop made.

So interaction between players will be profittable for players.

This sound awful but that is truth.

If people will find that soloing is faster , easier and more conveniant they will stay soloing. Simple.

If you've ever wondered when, exactly, MMOs began to be "too easy"--take a look at the development of games around 2004-2005.  The major push, of every developer in the genre, was toward greater soloability...indeed, the biggest topic of complaint about EQ1 (at that time) and other early games was "forced grouping".

Consider what that means.  It means healers have to solo too.  Traditionally low-output toons have to be capable of defeating mobs with their miserable damage output.

It took another five years, but at this point you can't find any "normal" mob at any point in the level range that cannot be defeated by the traditionally weakest of solo-capable classes, usually with ease.

Yep, there's a direct link.

But it's only one of a half-dozen factors that's contributing to the "pendulum has swung too far" feeling in modern MMOs.

Originally posted by simmihi

Originally posted by cali59

@OP

ArenaNet has a vision for their game, and one of their major goals is to reintroduce community into MMOs.  Dynamic events are one of their major ways of doing this.  Their answer to building community is not to just make the combat harder so you have to group, it's to make the combat completely cooperative and scale up with as many people are doing it.  Other people can't hurt you, and in fact they can only help you because you all get XP for helping kill a mob.  It's an MMO that makes you want to see other people.  I'm not going into as much detail on this as I could, I don't want to get too off topic.  But the idea is to provide no barriers to socializing in the open world.

I love the GW2's approach, in fact that's the only game i care about now, along with Funcom's TSW. But this dynamic events and Open World grouping leading to socializing... i have my doubts. My strong feeling is that people will come, group, do the deed and go, no one will say anything. Just like in War, just like in Rift.

I want to have "other things" to do except combat and crafting, and yes minigames and such are a good start.

 PQs and rifts are additional content in a game with a traditional quest framework.  A person might come and do a PQ and then go back to questing, or do a rift because it's in the way of where they wanted to go.  In GW2, the world is densely populated with DEs and they give generic rewards so you don't feel like you needed to go do a particular one.  They also chain together.  If you're doing a DE and it chains into another one, there's every incentive to just keep going with it, you're already there.  Even after the chain is over, people tend to just walk down the road together in search of another one.  If you can get people to stay together for a long period of time naturally, there's more incentive to actually speak with them. 

The other thing is that the game really does not only remove all barriers to socializing, it encourages it.  Everybody gets full xp and loot for doing anything more than 5% of health of a mob, so there's natural encouragement right there to work together to kill mobs faster.  There's also cross profession combos and being able to rez anybody else at any time and be rewarded for it.  Events scale up with more people so they become more chaotic and fun.  Not only can people not steal your crafting nodes, everybody has every gathering profession, so everyone will instinctively clear the way to it without feeling like they're waiting for someone else.  In fact, the PVE world is designed to be virtually impossible to grief anybody in any way.

It's good to be skeptical, but ArenaNet has said that their playtesting has shown this as well.  People decide to talk to the guy who has been following them for a while.  Or people who only intended to solo end up getting drawn into conversations and following people just because there's no reason not to.

I love your enthusiasm Cali and i surely hope that things would be as you describe :) Wouldnt that be something, such a great approach and also B2P model which suits me very well, as i take long breaks sometimes...

Originally posted by simmihi

Originally posted by Master_M2K

Originally posted by simmihi

*snip*

I love the GW2's approach, in fact that's the only game i care about now, along with Funcom's TSW. But this dynamic events and Open World grouping leading to socializing... i have my doubts. My strong feeling is that people will come, group, do the deed and go, no one will say anything. Just like in War, just like in Rift.

I want to have "other things" to do except combat and crafting, and yes minigames and such are a good start.

Well it really depends on the kind of player you are. A game cannot make you socialize against your will.

If you're a social gamer, then you will socialize if the game gives you an opportunity to do so and that's what the Dynamic Events, Dungeons, World v World v World, Activities and others parts of Guild Wars 2 will provide. The opportunity to socialize with with other social players. Heck, even in a solo-orientated game like Rift, I was able to make a couple friends just because the Zone-wide Invasions made seeing the same couple of social people into a common occurance.

You speak true words, yes, i am the same kind of gamer and my firends list is huge in rift, mostly due to open parties. But when i join an open group, i say hello and i get no replies, it kinda turns down the spirit.

Yeah, I really hate it when I try to socialize in these games and just get ignored. It's worse in Dungeon, a setting where people should be discussing stratergies and such with each other, but the trinity system kind of kills the need to talk in dungeons. If everyone knows the mechanics in a dungeon, it's pretty standard in these trinity-based MMORPGs, for everyone to just shutup and focus on their individual role and maybe shout some derogatory terms when someone is doing it wrong  (it's usually the healers fault ).

Holy doom and gloom, batman!

Please. It is like someone crying over how music was at its best in the 50s.

Originally posted by Malevil

Originally posted by Dvalon

I not only BLAME WOW, I blame the gamers for not having the balls to stand up, cancel their subscription and let their voice be heared, becasue mouthing off on the forums while your still paying them is not letting them know what you think, you have to get their attention where it matters, their wallets.

STOP SUBBING TO WOW, let them hear your voice.

Ever came to your mind that majority of WOW subscribers are actualy getting what they want ? Ppl who post on forums are not majority, they may be vocal, but nothing more than vocal minority.  Ppl do vote with their wallets, if WoW would be such bad game they wouldnt be paying for it.

@OP: soloism doesnt kill mmos, if anything makes them more mainstream. I just dont see what some ppl see so interesting on forced grouping for every part of content.

No one is saying EVERY bit of content has to be forced grouping, but nealry every bit of MMO content now is soloable is the issue. They give almost no reason to group or have community when you can solo to cap because everything is super fast and stupid easy. If your looking for fast paced instant gratification, console games are that way >>>>>>.

Originally posted by simmihi

Originally posted by arctarus

Originally posted by simmihi

Questing is the fastest way to hit max level in today's washed out games. People tend to chose the fastest way to solve problems so first you're forced to solo until max level. Then the "end game" hits and you're forced to group in order to experience the content. Isnt that a bit idiotic in terms of design?

I mean, during my first weeks / months ingame, you devs almost scream at me "quest!! solo! solo! solooooo!!! it's the best way, the fastest way!!" and when i reach the "finish line" now you push me into a random group generating machine and tell me "from now on, you'll have to play with these 5 / 10 / 20 / 25 guys to advance in your gaming existence"? Wth?

 

Not true, take wow for example, you're suppose to group for instances every few levels, you're suppose to grouped for escort quest, you're suppose to group for some part of your class quest, you're suppose to group to down hogger etc.. Options is given, but it's the players that choose to skip

You are right somehow, i'd say you can instance, you can group, no one's stopping you from that but my point was, it's not a "real" option for most people, as it is way way slower than just questing. Players take the shortest path and forced grouping does not "solve" the solo choice (numerous examples which failed here). Frankly, solo instances, solo or duo raids would make more sense of an endgame for these solo leveling games (not that i'm a fan of those but they'd make more sense for me)

Sorry, ive quit wow once cata is launch and ive hit 85, but iirc, doing instances will give you more xp and better loot as compare to quest. With the dungeon finder, for a dps to find a group for instance its about 20mins

Originally posted by Goatgod76

Originally posted by Malevil

Originally posted by Dvalon

I not only BLAME WOW, I blame the gamers for not having the balls to stand up, cancel their subscription and let their voice be heared, becasue mouthing off on the forums while your still paying them is not letting them know what you think, you have to get their attention where it matters, their wallets.

STOP SUBBING TO WOW, let them hear your voice.

Ever came to your mind that majority of WOW subscribers are actualy getting what they want ? Ppl who post on forums are not majority, they may be vocal, but nothing more than vocal minority.  Ppl do vote with their wallets, if WoW would be such bad game they wouldnt be paying for it.

@OP: soloism doesnt kill mmos, if anything makes them more mainstream. I just dont see what some ppl see so interesting on forced grouping for every part of content.

No one is saying EVERY bit of content has to be forced grouping, but nealry every bit of MMO content now is soloable is the issue. They give almost no reason to group or have community when you can solo to cap because everything is super fast and stupid easy. If your looking for fast paced instant gratification, console games are that way >>>>>>.

The thing about wow now, is that you have the option to level either by grouping all the way ( instances , pvp ) or solo ( questing ).

As ive said , an option is given to players which ever that float their boat. So its not  the developers fault to be able to cater to as much play style as possible.

However, looking back from the developers point of you, say you are the developers for wow : wotlk, wouldnt you be happy, or even overjoy that the months of hardwaork that you've put in have bare fruit? that from a 10mil playerbase, because of what you and your team have done, that it have exploded to around 12mil?

http://i.imgur.com/HTidt.jpg

that most of the players have seen that little bright star you have put at the top right corner of the instance? That most of the players have step into the instances that you and your team have design? love it and praise it? Tat your boss come over and tap on your shoulder and said " well done" ?

See? i believe for a developers, they want players to see their hard works , to enjoy, and with the sub numbers increase, to confirm that their works is not down the drain.

All of us really appreciate when our works is being recognize and in  turn brings profit to the company.

So please dont blame the devs, but instead look at the overall market out there, which i believe you would do the same and feel the same achievements that these same devs have done.

I started playing MMOs with UO.  So no soloism has little to do with the state of mmo gaming in general.

Yes, mmo's have been killed. They are dead. There are fewer people playing them then ever before.......it must be the soloing

Either that or the exact opposite.

Originally posted by Venger

I started playing MMOs with UO.  So no soloism has little to do with the state of mmo gaming in general.

All ive to say is that everything changes, from using only pc to surf net , watch youtube, to now we have tablets.

Times changes and we as players also must adpat to it.

Do i love mmo that you can only group and progress? Yes!!!

Ive met players that will forever be my frens because of it, and till now i still love that game ( knights online, but the company sux!!! )

But we have to accept that times have change, with all of us growing up and having more commitments in our real life, more tie down with our jobs and family, we simply dont have the luxury to spend 2 hours to open up a personal store and spam for others to buy our goods.

And wasn't you glad and breathe a sigh of relief that a newbie in your guild which keep asking for help ( maybe due to low pop ) and you dont have the time ( or just dont want to ) help he/she, that he or she is able to level to max by solo?

Originally posted by Elikal

Now I am sure you will say, kill? How can you say so, Elikal? Millions are playing MMOs, every few months new MMOs are launched!

And yet, for me, maybe for many of us here, MMOs seem to die. That is how I feel about this.

You see, the central point for me is this: there was a time, when playing a MMORPG meant, meeting people, talking with people and grouping with people. Playing alone was a rare occurance. In days of Everquest and SWG, my first two MMOs, I always came to places to talk, I always had groups and guilds were actually, really people working together.

Today, 95% of the time I play any MMO, I am totally and absolutely alone. This aloneness is the overall encompassing experience and feeling these days MMOs invoke in me. And if anything is worse than being alone, it is being alone in a crowd. A world full of egocentric suns, all circling around their own, tiny universes. It bores me. It bores me to death.

Now I am certain we all have our theories about why this is so. Let me look at a few coming to my mind.

 

(a) MMOs got too easy:

Something we read here often. I am sure it holds some credibility. I recall, when leaving Qeynos from EQ2 the first time, most mobs were heroic. You COULD not solo. Period. Result: I met tons of people. It does seem that only by putting in obstacles that only combined effort could overcome does form communities. And in that, all these solo-friends MMOs of our modern days mainly fail to generate communities, because people WILL solo what they CAN solo. I do NOT think, however, that strong penalities really help here. I do not see a logical connection to overly strong penalities to form communities. But difficulty does. And difficulty is not penality, difficulty is the fight itself.

 

(b) MMOs got to combat centered:

Just recall the MANY things you could do in Ultima Online or SWG OTHER than fighting, and look at what you can do in, say, AoC, WAR or any newer MMO. Almost nothing. Or, daresay, SWTOR. It seems like MMOs have left this idea of a world simulation behind and entered a very narrow theme park ideology of being led from combat a to b to c. While I think nothing is wrong with combat, it has become the SOLE content now, and all the non combat activities of older MMOs was a sort of backbone to create communities. Anyone who recalls SWG in its glory days, or UO will know what I speak of. Only a fundamental paradigm change, and only a complete fail of the new, combat-only sort of MMOs would usher a new era like the one of the past. Yes, I am looking at you SWTOR and GW2.

 

(c) Super Fast Levelling:

One of my main issue with grouping, when I am away a few days, today all people I know outleveled me. Considerably. That sure is something I did not experience in SWG or EQ2 in the old days, because levelling was slow. This way how people burn through levels these days is just not helping.

 

(d) Teamspeak:

I regard Teamspeak, Vent and all other voice babble software as BANE of the same degree as the middle ages seen the pox. What TS does is two things: first, it creates a rift between those INSIDE TS and the rest. This rest usually becomes invisible, non-existent. Thus by its very nature, TS is anti-social. It creates a sort of elite, a society within society. It's as if 1/3rd in your city would suddenly decide to speak a secret language, blocking out all other people from their entire socializing. The other thing is: you always have this unblockable background noise of babbling people. Chat you can look at or not. But voices in your ear you can never block. And a TS conversation in a virtual Tavern, no stranger can ever accidentally blend in. You will never meet and talk to any other people than the ones you know. I know, many love TS and voice chat. But I remain firm TS and its ilk did tremendous damage to forming MMO server- communities as we knew in the past!

 

(e) Guilds and Endgame:

Guilds changed, and that is mostly due to the rise of Endgame. Past MMOs did not knew any endgame. Not the way we know it today. Today, Endgame seems the overall dominating goal of MMO gamers, and yes I do mainly blame WOW. WOW introduced fast, easy levelling, and to compensate for this, they added a huge waterhead of endgame grind. Farm tokens or coins or faction points for endgame gear set Tier1 then Tier2 asf. It's a HUGE hamster wheel, and I loathe this WOW formula, all the endgame grind, all this focus on factions points and whatever hellish tricks Blizzard invented to keep people playing, after they burned through the levels in a week. Ang guilds now fall into two categories: They are either a gathering of soloists, 95% of the time busy soloing and making their guild nothing but an elaborate chat channel. Usually inside such guilds is an inner circle of 5-8 people who always group and the rest are bystanders. The other guilds are endgame focussed. They are always in raids and "runs" of any sort, and the most dominating feature is speed and busy busy. Sorry, but that's not how I imagine guild cooperation. I want to do my quests, my stories, together with people. And I tried our MANY guilds over the last years, and NONE has really given me that in ways I knew in the past. NOT ONE.

 

I am sure you find other reasons, why this development from MMOs a social game to MMOs as soloist haven came to be. For me, it has make MMO gaming unbelievably boring. I know, some love to make it all alone. I don't. For me, it entirely kills the purpose of MMOs. The quests of MMOs are rarely that exciting that soloing is so fun. And this spirit, the feeling that doing stuff together is more fun than doing it alone, that spirit is lost.

 You left out a big one,

(f) Auction Houses.

Selling used to be a social act.  You would stand on your favorite game corner (East commons Tunnel anyone?) and shout about all the items you had to sell, or all the items you wanted to buy.  It led to interactions.  It led to meeting new people.  It was plain fun thing to do when you were doing nothing else.  When it was replaced with Auction Houses and Bizaars it led not only to inflated prices, eliminated a non-combat activity; both of which led to an ever greater focus on combat.  I would add that the change to bound items did much the same.

Reuse is a necessary social act.  Not just for the RW-environment.

Originally posted by arctarus

Originally posted by Goatgod76

Originally posted by Malevil

Originally posted by Dvalon

I not only BLAME WOW, I blame the gamers for not having the balls to stand up, cancel their subscription and let their voice be heared, becasue mouthing off on the forums while your still paying them is not letting them know what you think, you have to get their attention where it matters, their wallets.

STOP SUBBING TO WOW, let them hear your voice.

Ever came to your mind that majority of WOW subscribers are actualy getting what they want ? Ppl who post on forums are not majority, they may be vocal, but nothing more than vocal minority.  Ppl do vote with their wallets, if WoW would be such bad game they wouldnt be paying for it.

@OP: soloism doesnt kill mmos, if anything makes them more mainstream. I just dont see what some ppl see so interesting on forced grouping for every part of content.

No one is saying EVERY bit of content has to be forced grouping, but nealry every bit of MMO content now is soloable is the issue. They give almost no reason to group or have community when you can solo to cap because everything is super fast and stupid easy. If your looking for fast paced instant gratification, console games are that way >>>>>>.

 

The thing about wow now, is that you have the option to level either by grouping all the way ( instances , pvp ) or solo ( questing ).

 

As ive said , an option is given to players which ever that float their boat. So its not  the developers fault to be able to cater to as much play style as possible.

 

However, looking back from the developers point of you, say you are the developers for wow : wotlk, wouldnt you be happy, or even overjoy that the months of hardwaork that you've put in have bare fruit? that from a 10mil playerbase, because of what you and your team have done, that it have exploded to around 12mil?

http://i.imgur.com/HTidt.jpg

 

that most of the players have seen that little bright star you have put at the top right corner of the instance? That most of the players have step into the instances that you and your team have design? love it and praise it? Tat your boss come over and tap on your shoulder and said " well done" ?

See? i believe for a developers, they want players to see their hard works , to enjoy, and with the sub numbers increase, to confirm that their works is not down the drain.

All of us really appreciate when our works is being recognize and in  turn brings profit to the company.

So please dont blame the devs, but instead look at the overall market out there, which i believe you would do the same and feel the same achievements that these same devs have done.

 

 

 

 

Originally posted by Uproar

You left out a big one,

(f) Auction Houses.

Selling used to be a social act.  You would stand on your favorite game corner (East commons Tunnel anyone?) and shout about all the items you had to sell, or all the items you wanted to buy.  It led to interactions.  It led to meeting new people.  It was plain fun thing to do when you were doing nothing else.  When it was replaced with Auction Houses and Bizaars it led not only to inflated prices, eliminated a non-combat activity; both of which led to an ever greater focus on combat.  I would add that the change to bound items did much the same.

Reuse is a necessary social act.  Not just for the RW-environment.

God yes.. I loved EC Tunnel. You knew everyone.. bought and sold... and even got in a pick up group there.

I didnt even mind the bazaar when it came out...