i did abit more reading of this topic, and i have to say i am against the idea of crafters being pigeon holed to operations regardless of mats/items/recipes to acquire the best gear.

imo, what makes the best crafter?   A crafter that delves deep into all the aspects of the game, in SWTORS case, they have quite a few.

So lets say you grab a particular recipe from doing abit of exploring and filling up your codex (more or less get over 80 percent things found)  this recipe explains what ingrediants are needed.

x amount of mats from operations

x amount of mats from llum pvp

x amount of percentage of diplomacy (say a companion is given a mission to gain a part of the recipe and they are tasked to get and come back)

and complete a space combat mission and certain difficulty

will everyone like this? no, because you have people that do not like to raid, or do not like to pvp, or do not like to do space combat, or send companions to do crafting duties for them. 

its not so much of what people like or hate to do, but more of being a dedicated crafter willing to undergo challenges to prove themselves worthy to make the said best gear.

imo, would rather go with this,  because the  "grab mats at operations for best gear"  is a cop out.

Crafting should produce some of the best items in the game, not necessarily all the best items. I would be happy if the best base armour came from raids and all the mods came from crafting. I know all the raiders use the argument,"if you arent going to raid you dont need the best gear". Well its not about crafters needing the best gear its about giving crafters a viable end game. If, as a crafter, I can not make some of the best gear my profession is worthless. If all the best gear comes from flashpoints and operations no one needs a crafter. If you make all the best crafted items need mats from operations you just made raiding and crafting one in the same. I can think of quite a few ways to make crafing harder than raiding in terms of time invested.

As it stands now I believe that gathering skills, Biochem and maybe cybernetics are the only worthwhile crafting (not including missions) professions. Since they make consumables that everyone needs over and over, even raiders

Long story short I fully agree with a seperate crafting  path

I despise raiding, so there you go.

I hate to say this, because i know how much it bothers people, but damn...

This is not a WoW clone (with a few twists)....?

/facepalm

I would like to agree that crafting will be able to make the best items in the game.  However, I think Bio is gonna have a tough time making sure they dont make the crafting items too available if it is not tied to raiding.  Some items will need to be incredibly rare in order to not flood the market.

Of course there should be BoE and and BoP items.  I don't think many people are thinking of the in game economy when they say they want everything to be easy and readily available.

Edit:  I like the idea posted above about making the crafters be well rounded and have goals to complete in everything.

Originally posted by DarkPony

Overwhelming support for the notion that high level crafting should be independent from raiding so far in the poll. Seems there are more of us, eh?

Really hope Bioware will at least consider making crafting a complete, stand-alone gameplay option rather than going WOW's "raiding is the end off" way.

p.s. This thread isn't about whether you think crafting in Swtor will be deep or shallow, feel free to discuss that topic in another thread. It's about whether raiding and high level crafting should be tied or not. Please keep it on topic.

 You shouldn't tell people what they should do when you open up an side topic in a thread. 

As to SWG2 crafting in swtor:   IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN.

Independent from raiding to make top tier gear. I don't like the current form of raiding where you have to be max level and have minimum statistics to join. I like raiding to level up where anyone can join and contribute as long as they listen to the raid leaders. It makes no sense to me that you have to already have the best gear in order to craft the best gear. And even less sense to have to have the best gear in order to craft second-rate gear.

You can make a difficult method of making gear that requires coupon collection that can be random like Vanguard's crafting to get top tier recipes but it should be completely independent of raiding. If I spend a lot of time crafting and trying to get these coupons and getting to the top of my craft I should be able to make the top tier gear without relying on raiding.

Originally posted by mrw0lf

Originally posted by DarkPony

p.s. This thread isn't about whether you think crafting in Swtor will be deep or shallow, feel free to discuss that topic in another thread. It's about whether raiding and high level crafting should be tied or not. Please keep it on topic.

Tbf the 2 are kind of combined, hard to discuss one without the other. If harvesting and crafting are to the point of single clicks, how does matter in any way at all where the mats are it's all irrelevant because what you're really saying is should non-raiders be able to craft raid standard gear.

Raiding has been reduced to one button macros as well.  Raid guilds will programmable gaming devices whether the game supports macros or not.  The "difficulty" in raiding is in no way relevant to how deep or shallow the crafting is.  The thing is enough people have raided before that it isn't some magical mystery.  Raids on farm mode in no way equates challenging content.  It's not that some of us don't like challenging content, it's that some of us don't like raid style game play.

Originally posted by Draftbeer

 independent, top tier

Forced raiding is just not my thing.

and no I don't want 2nd best gear

Make crafting much less cakewalk instead - even a second job

let me earn my goods.

Give me alternatives.

This is exactly how I feel as well.  I voted crafting - top tier - independent.

Originally posted by NeVeRLiFt

that treadmill with chasing the carrot on the stick for gear is there and is the main end-game for SW:ToR

hope you enjoy it... I cancel my preorder because I won't play or support another mmo that does this treadmill crap anymore

I cancelled my preorder for the exact same reason. I'm sick of the treadmill myself...

Well seeing as a small % of population even bother to raid much less successfully complete the top raid it would not be unreasonable for crafting to to yeild the best pve or even pvp gear. I think more people pvp than raid so that might be a little overboard.

I think I could also make the argument that most crafters put more time and effort into crafting then raiders put into raiding. I've seen endless scenarios where LOSER players get a free run through a raid only to get a lucky roll and win the loot. Ofcourse that isn't the case in TOR because everyone gets a box of goodies at the end of the raidbow.

Why am I even rambling, 90% of players dont raid supposedly so who knows why its even a focus. I'm going out on a limb and saying much much more players craft at some point so it should be an obvious focus for the end game experience.

I think the result speak for themself and i wholeheartedly agree with them.  Raiding ad-nauseum end game is boring and YES raiding should'nt the only way to get the best gears.

Originally posted by EvilChemist

Well seeing as a small % of population even bother to raid much less successfully complete the top raid it would not be unreasonable for crafting to to yeild the best pve or even pvp gear. I think more people pvp than raid so that might be a little overboard.

I think I could also make the argument that most crafters put more time and effort into crafting then raiders put into raiding. I've seen endless scenarios where LOSER players get a free run through a raid only to get a lucky roll and win the loot. Ofcourse that isn't the case in TOR because everyone gets a box of goodies at the end of the raidbow.

Why am I even rambling, 90% of players dont raid supposedly so who knows why its even a focus. I'm going out on a limb and saying much much more players craft at some point so it should be an obvious focus for the end game experience.

Crafters might put more time crafting then raiders actually raid, but the thing with raiding is that you spend a lot more time waiting for the raid to actually start then you spend doing the raid...

The Devs have said that to be the best crafter, you will need a lot of time as well as a lot of help from a guild or friends. So having the best crafted items gated behind what takes the most work makes sense.

I believe that the crafting items won't be BoP. So they can be sold or given to a dedicated guild crafter. So a guild that farms the Operations for crafting material can give these to their crafter who can make what the guild needs as well as sell these items on the AH. I am ok with that because the best PvE gear is needed for the Operations and nothing more. So fine, you have to run operations to make operation level gear. No big deal, that is what it will be used for.

The devs have also said that hard mode flashpoint runs will give you gear that will work fine for operations. Also, if you are thinking about solo PvE play. I have a feeling that the best companion gear will be from solo play. Having a better companion and  a better presence stat will make it easier to solo. And PvP is covered by having PvP gear 10% better than Operation gear for PvP.

At the risk of incurring everyone's wrath (and turning into a big crunchy carrot for Darth Pony to flash-fry and chomp on), the only reson you need BiS gear is if you're raiding. I think raiders depending on crafters and vice-versa is a pretty fair system.

I just don't grok the notion of needing BiS stuffs if you're not gonna raid with them. Is it just about looking shiny? Having that +10% and the epic shoulderpads of epicness (and eye-poking-out-ness) to run around in PvE? Doing what? Flashpoints on hard mode? Dailies?

There's already another (correct me if I'm wrong) PvP-centric BiS set which is 10% better for PvP at endgame, right? Should crafters be able to make that set without ever setting foot in a warzone or engaging in PvP in the open world? Well, no, because they would have no need of it (or interest in it), right? So why does it work the other way around when it comes to PvE gear?

I'm not a raider so this isn't about wanting to keep the best gear for raiders, it's probably all some lack of understanding on my part, and possibly also why I've never been interested in the gear treadmill.

Originally posted by Hopscotch73

At the risk of incurring everyone's wrath (and turning into a big crunchy carrot for Darth Pony to flash-fry and chomp on), the only reson you need BiS gear is if you're raiding. I think raiders depending on crafters and vice-versa is a pretty fair system.

I just don't grok the notion of needing BiS stuffs if you're not gonna raid with them. Is it just about looking shiny? Having that +10% and the epic shoulderpads of epicness (and eye-poking-out-ness) to run around in PvE? Doing what? Flashpoints on hard mode? Dailies?

There's already another (correct me if I'm wrong) PvP-centric BiS set which is 10% better for PvP at endgame, right? Should crafters be able to make that set without ever setting foot in a warzone or engaging in PvP in the open world? Well, no, because they would have no need of it (or interest in it), right? So why does it work the other way around when it comes to PvE gear?

I'm not a raider so this isn't about wanting to keep the best gear for raiders, it's probably all some lack of understanding on my part, and possibly also why I've never been interested in the gear treadmill.

That is true of course but crafters should be able to make gear for raiders without raiding themselves...

The idea of punishing crafters and making them have to rely on an activity I would bet the majority of players don't do....raid (just my guess) to get the best materials is not somethingthat would make me want to play this game. PERIOD.

Originally posted by Greymoor

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by Greymoor

Pretty sure we'll see database addons like the resource ones in WoW which will tell your bot where to go.

The difference is having to do it manually with your character creates and effort gap which is why not everyone crafts in most games. If it's all done for you (SWTOR) everyone will be a crafter and everyone will be pumping out stock into the market with a never ending supply of resources that magically appear.

This is far from the truth I have no intention what so ever of crafting anything, harvetsing or any of that. I'm much more interested in the diplomacy/missions skills of companions

• Diplomacy – the art of conducting and managing negotiations
• Investigation – the skill of examining evidence and following clues to discover valuable secrets
• Treasure Hunting – the ability to track down and recover valuable items by investigating a series of clues
• Underworld Trading – expertise in the trading of illegal goods and services

Pretty sure you get multiple companions. If you really don't have atleast one being a resource bot then you're foolish tbh.

 It depends on how much cash you have. It will cost credits to send out companions. With a chance to fail. As well as time, anywhere from 5 min to 24 hours. So you have to invest a lot of cash and time to have a companion bring back, and possibly fail, harvest material. When you could just go out and get much more yourself.

The crafting system from 1 to 50 for regular gear will not be difficult. It will just take a lot of time. That is probably why the best crafting gear, some of which will be best in slot per devs, will be gated behind operations. It will take you doing it yourself, paying for items on the AH, being part of a big guild or paying others to bring back material from an operation.

I'd like to be able to craft very good gear without having to go to dungeons. I'm fine if it takes a long time and is slow and "hard" to do as long as there is the possibility. I dont like features being unconditionally "boxed" into certain themes like raiding, pvp, etc. I'm not asking "welfare" anything, just give possibility for more ways to play the game, it does not have to be fast and easy to do, just allow people to be part of greater community who like to craft but not neccesarily raid often (or if they cant).