Originally posted by PyscoJuggalo

Eve has a level system....  Every skill has five levels and levels are needed to use various componants and ships.

QFT.

But people are easily fooled.

 I don't believe vanilla wow was any closer to being sandbox, even with your premises.

 Wow suffered in progression as most other 'themepark' mmos, the lack of freedom and I'll elaborate. Your basic goal before reaching lvl cap was to quest and grind to gain those lvls. Crafting was limited by what lvl you were so you could not go beyond that limit unless you went up in physical lvl, thus you were limited.

  EVE does not limit your crafting progression by way of any other factor but expertise lvl and materials. It is not dependent on any other factor, like physical lvls, to advance. Just like being a trader, you don't need to progress in killing things just those skills needed.

Rift, WoW, and most other 'themeparks' require you to grind lvls before you can achieve the same progression in crafting, harvesting, etc. You can't stay at lvl 1 and harvest and craft lvl 20 items, no matter how try. Eve you can because the skill sets give you the diversity to go in any direction you want to develop.

They all have quests, they all have grind, they all have PvP, but the paths you take to enjoy are very dissimilar as themeparks push you along a 'rail' as some others have said, but sandboxes attempt to give you the freedom to progress how and which way you wish to.

Originally posted by MMOExposed
OK. Each level opens up more of the map by 2.5% per level. Max level had full access to the total map.

Lets put it like that. So a level 40 player has full access to the game like currently, while a starter player has much less and levels to get to the full game which is at end game. Would Eve now be themepark?

It's still a sandbox, just converted to a real crappy one. It basically breaks one of the best features whicxh is allowing players of all levels to get together or fight against each other.

Your presented design doesn't make it a themepark. It makes it a crappy sandbox. However, that's not going to stop people from sidetracking about what a themepark is. ;)

Originally posted by MMOExposed

I had a discussion with my friend on this topic of what a themepark mmo is. my argument is simple; Themepark MMO are sandbox mmo with lots of Developer made contents.

what I notice from playing Rift, that there is a short moment of leveling a character to max level, when I ask myself "Ok I am max level, now what I do?"

Well isnt that the same question many people ask when they play a sandbox game with freedom to do as you like? Thats when I realized that "Endgame" is only something we do once we reach the maximum level within a game. But once that is reached, doesnt the player have the freedom to do whatever they like just like a sandbox mmo?

No, not at all. The amount of things you can do in Sandboxes is far greater. On top of that players actually affect the game in sanboxes (this is mainly replicated in 0.0 in EVE).

In wow you can't upgrade zones or conquer them. You can't set up a "base" in zones either. That's the major difference.

back to the topic question:
if a game like Eve had levels at first, but once at max level (for sake of question, lets pretend the max level is 40) the game is the same as it currently is.

Would the Eve game in this new way no longer be a sandbox?

It wouldn't matter. One could already see some form of "levels" in EVE. DOn't forget you have skills in EVE. You could basically say reaching the level cap in EVE is having all skills maxed out (good luck with that).

to me, the game would seem themepark like while leveling, but for players that are level 40 (endgame) wouldnt the game be sandbox, since its basically the same game as it currently is?
 

If CCP decides to remove WH's, 0.0, POS's and FW Sov (though it is purely cosmetic atm) yes it would become a themepark. Now it ain't.

Note: this not a argument on whether this would be a good idea to add to Eve or not. This is also not a argument on whether or not this would ever happen.

Endgame starts as soon as you log in. If your endgame is pirating in low-sec you go do that. If your endgame is being a trader or industrialist you do that. If you want to go play in 0.0 with a big alliance you buy a Rifter and tackle for the fleet. If you want to be an explorer you do that. It would still be a sandbox with levels, and in a way, there already is a level mechanism in game with the skill system. Themeparks are different because you usually have a very limited set of options once you are at endgame, and all of the content is generated by the developer. None of the content is, as CCP puts it, emergent. In a modern themepark, you either raid or you do instanced PVP. There is nothing else, so the question that players ask themselves once they get to endgame in a themepark is, "Should I raid or PVP or a bit of both?"

In a sandobx the question is much broader. The question becomes, "What can I create with my fellow players?"

Originally posted by Zookz1

 In a modern themepark, you either raid or you do instanced PVP. There is nothing else, so the question that players ask themselves once they get to endgame in a themepark is, "Should I raid or PVP or a bit of both?"

 

In a sandobx the question is much broader. The question becomes, "What can I create with my fellow players?"

Word.

One thing is obvious from this thread....

There need to me MORE sand box mmo's.

bring back pre CU SWG!!!!   LMAO.