Great post. There is without a doubt a large group of players who are looking for the virtual worlds of old.

Originally posted by SBFord

In today's Coyote's Howling, venerable Coyote takes on the notion that all MMOs today are WoW clones and that innovation is rather lacking. Check out Coyote's thoughts about reading quests, deadly zones and something called "corpse zones". Leave us a couple of comments after you're finished reading.

Nobody wants to be different, unique, or risk upsetting the hack-and-slash crowd. They don't want to be new, innovative, or original - they want to be World of Warcraft. They want to copy, clone, and become the game that they envision as "perfect" because it has the largest MMORPG share on the market without ever once considering the ugly truth: Gaming has gone stupid.

Read more Coyote's Howling: No RPG in my MMORPG.

 Ha so true.  Don't forget that a certain mmorpg turned the genre into McDonald's.   A lot of folks were served immediate gratifcation, but it didn't progress the industry. 

Arguably, there are a lot of folks (who doesn't know this?) who are waiting for a return of an Everquest, or Dark Age of Camelot, Asheron's Call, Ultima Online, serious old school mmorpg with modern day graphical rendering.  This means lots of races and classes, HOUSING, the whole immersive 9 yards, and as the OP stated:                                                                      

                                                                                         Role - Playing -  Game

To the mmorpg industry: when do the adults get an mmorpg?

We tend to forget that for a truely pleasing experience, we must first take a look at some real facts. In reality there is harsh punishment for murder, and death is sorted that YOU STAY DEAD with no chance of revival. For a game to become great, it must also induce fear and adrenaline into the players. Developers can cleverly craft zones, with harsh penalties when players die, random dynamic exploding content that surges forth creating monsterous 3 way faction battles, world bosses, an actual dynmaic cataclysmic event reshaping the land, and all that good stuff.

Then, you will get the MAJORITY of gamers that refuse to play, and it'll close up. Look at EA, then look at what you would have liked in their cash shop versus what people wanted in the cash shop. The people spoke about wanting to buy permenant guns for $REAL MONEY, you spoke about removing cash shop and adding innovation into the game mechanics. 99% of the people bought and their sales rose 200%. If they did it your way, it would be a dead stick in the mud. Your ideas are not majority, they are minority. Money talks, and money is the reason a MMOG was created and marketed in the first place.

Now, can you have cake too? Yes, stop being a closed minded ignorant fool. To truely be unique, you must balance both hardcore and softcore players and catter to both. You want to be able to tripple side dungeon runs, easy rinse and repeat for noobs, challenging hard for veterans, and dynamically insanely impossible for the thrill seeker. You can't mix all recipes together? Then make your own recipe. You can create a game that is fun for the majority, and fun for you. You want insanely powerful zones with harsh deaths and dynamic destuction that reeks hell and chaos on you? Then we can shift that to where maybe a npc caravan can take noobs through such a area, with still the high risks you wanted. Guild Wars did do something right, and so did Guild Wars 2. You need to really catter to both sides, and meet in the middle with the dominant wants and ideas.

You can always cleverly design and craft a game that will offer extreme hard mode for one person, insane impossible mode for another, and finally a steamy bucket of fluffy bunny stew for others. You can always penalize the noobs for using such protection to travel in the lands, but no game should FORCE one path, instead make multiple pathes and let the player know their rewards and punishments. The player doesn't have to pvp or quest in that zone, with such dynamics the player can choose to skip it and go to a easier or another zone. Each zone can even be split into sections where red is for hardcore, green is for lightcore, white is roleplay, and yellow will be the location of dynamics that would happen to spawn in those zones.

You can take it  step further and reward people for roleplay. All kinds of ideas, yet the pubeless boys on here grunt out that they want the past and only the past and nothing else. I can really think up some damn great immersion content that would dynamically scale, but alas we all want the repeat of UO or EQ. Failure to learn or want to evolve and change seems more rampant than the ability to adapt and evolve, create new wonderous stuff, and accept it. Can you accept it? I think not, since you post whinny details about how UO and EQ donkey stomp wow.

Originally posted by Loke666

Those old games did some thing really great. They also did other things not so great, and I think most people here have forgotten most of the bad things.

That's very true. I always tell people that my memory of UO was a lot more fun that it actually was. Trust me, there were problems. Same thing with EQ.

A lot of old-timers are still wearing those rose-colored glasses. Time to take them off.

All , are good comments IMO.

It boils down to this.

Tell the story outside of the raids.

Tell the secrets in the raids.

It is all kinda skewed wrong now.

The story everyone can enjoy should come first. Priority ONE.

The raids can live the story, but everyone needs to enjoy it.

Soooo...when the subject said "No RPG in my MMORPG," what the author actually meant for it to say was "QQ EQ > WoW," right?

Was a corpse run really fun=NO, if you want good quest play LOTRO, if you want a challenging MMO play Vanguard

I lived through those days and yes there's a lot I miss but if they really gave us an updated version of the same game nowadays would I play it?  Heck no.(with some exceptions)  I loved the idea of typing in your answers and all that but SWTOR and GW2 are both doing something similar without the archaic mud systems of yesteryear pretty much giving you the same experience but with more of a streamlined system.  YES bring the rpg back! I am so glad devs are coming to their senses and realizing story is important.

As far as corpse runs and impossible zones.. corpse runs.. never again please.. impossible zones(or more difficult zones based off time) cool idea that I've seen used many times in multiple genre's.  I don't see why they couldn't use the idea again but it's really not that huge of a deal either way.  It's true nowadays I have less time to give to my mmos.  Other important things are in my life.  I demand accessability or I won't sub for long.  Now does that mean easy? No it means I want  bang for my buck each and every time I log into a game.  That doesn't mean I don't enjoy MMOs and I think the devs realize that.

Originally posted by kirak2009

Great Post, sadly it seems those days are gone forever

 

Oh, they're not gone! You just have to find the right players to play with.  If anyone saw THE RAID documentary, you'd think that MMORPG's are just about doing dungeons and getting phat lewt and swearing at/being jerks to each other....nothing about your 'CHARACTER'.  Naw, there are plenty of us out there that care about the lore.  Even "Red Shirt Guy" from Blizzcon shows that there are plenty of role players out there that care immensely about lore.

Things change.

I played during those days and remember them quite fondly...Not fondly enough to want to go back to them in the condition you described, but fondly.

The problem at its' core is time, in my opinion? People can ill afford the timesink old school MMORPG's presented.

The game that can mix events that matter to all players with a risk vs reward template that makes what the players do stick with them will have a hit on its' hands if that game can make it do all that without sucking a players' time to play dry.

We often complain about how "dumbed down" most MMO's are now, but forget why. We asked for it when we outgrew the leveling experiences that made the game great in hindsight and grew into a dynamic where you could spend 10 hours in the game and accomplish nothing due to bad timing, bad luck, or the whims of others.

The "dumbed down" game won due to being more universally accessable to players differing needs and will continue to do so.

Many of the aspects you describe as facets of RPG in MMOrpg's still exist in the more popular games today, you just have to choose to undertake them.

Originally posted by Loke666

Coyote is so right when he describes the problem of modern MMOs but then he comes to the conclusion that the right thing is to remake the games of the past instead of moving forward.

MMOs needs to be more original, not copies of another game no matter if that game is UO, Wow or EQ.

The difference between todays game and the early games were that in those games there weren't anything to copy so you were forced figuring out how the game should be by yourself instead of just stealing all the stuff.

I played those games. I played the current games. I want something I havn't played for years next, not rehashing old stuff.

Those old games did some thing really great. They also did other things not so great, and I think most people here have forgotten most of the bad things.

I don't often diagree with you Loke666 but here I do. As stated many of us were around for those old games. Yes, we mainly often talk about the good things those games did. That's typical of any conversation where there is good and bad. We also very much remember the bad things as well. That's why I'd like to shove the "rose colored glasses" and "nostaliga, blah blah blah" right up the you know where of the crowd that chants them (this does not include you, by the way, lol!). People aren't that blind to not have seen those bad things.

What those people are confused about is why MMO developement hasn't taken grasp of those things that were good and incorporated and expanded upon them through the subsequent history of game making. No, instead they have found short cuts and "easier" trails to send us on and in doing so have taken much of the punch out of MMO gaming.

I, and I guess many, many others, have always included in the definition of "gaming" an element of failure with a measured level of consequence. It is very easy to see that that measured level has gone from say 1/2 to 1/4 to now certainly less than 1/8 the punch it used to. So rightfully we question what the hexck is happening. Anyone with perspective can see that having almost the same level of tasks thrown at us with a reduced level of the original consequence weakens the game.

Now sure, the "everyone gets a trophy for just participating" crowd loves that. They can't be bothered to learn the game, learn to get play at an elevated level and rise to the occaision. No, they'd much prefer the occaision be lowered down to them so they can reap success often and/or always.

Take the olympic games as an example. In the high jump event, they don't lower the bar after every round to make it easier or more accessible to the participants. No, they raise it. MMOs certainly have not done that.

Least that's my opinion...

The thing that happened IMO is that over the years the "arcade" game style won over the "simulation" game style.

Earlier MMORPGs tried to simulate living in a fantasy word.

Modern MMO's are just fast paced arcade versions of the early fantasy sim's like UO.

I, and I guess many, many others, have always included in the definition of "gaming" an element of failure with a measured level of consequence. It is very easy to see that that measured level has gone from say 1/2 to 1/4 to now certainly less than 1/8 the punch it used to. So rightfully we question what the hexck is happening. Anyone with perspective can see that having almost the same level of tasks thrown at us with a reduced level of the original consequence weakens the game.

Now sure, the "everyone gets a trophy for just participating" crowd loves that. They can't be bothered to learn the game, learn to get play at an elevated level and rise to the occaision. No, they'd much prefer the occaision be lowered down to them so they can reap success often and/or always.

Take the olympic games as an example. In the high jump event, they don't lower the bar after every round to make it easier or more accessible to the participants. No, they raise it. MMOs certainly have not done that.

Least that's my opinion...

 I like the Olympic Games analogy.

Modern MMOs havent raised the bar to make the game more challenging, they took the bar away, kept the mat and turned it into a Bouncey House

Originally posted by Loke666

Coyote is so right when he describes the problem of modern MMOs but then he comes to the conclusion that the right thing is to remake the games of the past instead of moving forward.

MMOs needs to be more original, not copies of another game no matter if that game is UO, Wow or EQ.

The difference between todays game and the early games were that in those games there weren't anything to copy so you were forced figuring out how the game should be by yourself instead of just stealing all the stuff.

I played those games. I played the current games. I want something I havn't played for years next, not rehashing old stuff.

Those old games did some thing really great. They also did other things not so great, and I think most people here have forgotten most of the bad things.

 Not true Loke.

Alakhazam, EQtraders, and several other sites were there for info. Just needed to know where to look.

Granted in the early days you didnt have a map until someone took time to make one, as we didnt have in game maps, but they were there on sites ready to be printed. Your corpse could rot, and if you wiped in a raid you could spend all night trying to get your bod back(I mean 8 hrs plus). Know that last part all too well.

If it wasnt for TOR, I would be done with MMOs. Like the author stated, I no longer wish to devote the time I did with EQ. I still come to MMORPG.com cause lets face it....the whining here is second to none that I have found on the internet. Always good for a laugh.

For the sandboxers chiming in though....EQ was a total themepark. The world didnt revolve around PVP & tradeskills. You couldnt simply be a crafter/politician/dancer to level up. You didnt plant houses, and you sure as hell didnt create the content.

I would like to see TOR be without the little symbols over everyones heads...but hey things change. Several aspects from EQ I would like to see in TOR. That said, the sandboxers that chime constantly about "virtual reality".....pizz on them. Before WoW, EQ towered over all the other NA games. If we are going back in time, I sure dont wanna be a party to SWG 2.

To me its like having sex for the first time with one you love ....

The mood has got to be just right. Perhaps some candels, nice diner, slow music on stereo. You aproach the matter lightly and if your woman is in the mood, proceed with pleaasure. if not - well at least you had a nice evening with right mind set. pehaps next time.

Sadly after a while the wine is not chilled, food is just lunch and you have sex when and how you both feel like it. Its still good, but its just not an event of epic proportions. You both know what to expect and how to achieve it.

Even if you find a new lover, chances are it will be experienced one ( who ever dated a virgin doesnt want to go through that drahma again ). So the experience is somewhat different and yet again first few times you take extra stepes, but you both know where it leads and trembling hands on braw are just a distant memory. Shes out of her clothes in mere minutes if not seconds.

MMO-s are much like that. Its hard if not imposible to recreate that feeling of your first MMO experience. You can start a new MMO, everyting seems new, but you allready know what class to take, generaly know what kind of build to do, quests are all logical because, been there done that.

So yes, you could try and make old school MMO. But just like trying "it out" with yet another virgin, it would only spoil your good and fond memories that we all look at through pik glasses of time.

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

Originally posted by Loke666

Coyote is so right when he describes the problem of modern MMOs but then he comes to the conclusion that the right thing is to remake the games of the past instead of moving forward.

MMOs needs to be more original, not copies of another game no matter if that game is UO, Wow or EQ.

The difference between todays game and the early games were that in those games there weren't anything to copy so you were forced figuring out how the game should be by yourself instead of just stealing all the stuff.

I played those games. I played the current games. I want something I havn't played for years next, not rehashing old stuff.

Those old games did some thing really great. They also did other things not so great, and I think most people here have forgotten most of the bad things.

I don't often diagree with you Loke666 but here I do. As stated many of us were around for those old games. Yes, we mainly often talk about the good things those games did. That's typical of any conversation where there is good and bad. We also very much remember the bad things as well. That's why I'd like to shove the "rose colored glasses" and "nostaliga, blah blah blah" right up the you know where of the crowd that chants them (this does not include you, by the way, lol!). People aren't that blind to not have seen those bad things.

What those people are confused about is why MMO developement hasn't taken grasp of those things that were good and incorporated and expanded upon them through the subsequent history of game making. No, instead they have found short cuts and "easier" trails to send us on and in doing so have taken much of the punch out of MMO gaming.

I, and I guess many, many others, have always included in the definition of "gaming" an element of failure with a measured level of consequence. It is very easy to see that that measured level has gone from say 1/2 to 1/4 to now certainly less than 1/8 the punch it used to. So rightfully we question what the hexck is happening. Anyone with perspective can see that having almost the same level of tasks thrown at us with a reduced level of the original consequence weakens the game.

Now sure, the "everyone gets a trophy for just participating" crowd loves that. They can't be bothered to learn the game, learn to get play at an elevated level and rise to the occaision. No, they'd much prefer the occaision be lowered down to them so they can reap success often and/or always.

Take the olympic games as an example. In the high jump event, they don't lower the bar after every round to make it easier or more accessible to the participants. No, they raise it. MMOs certainly have not done that.

Least that's my opinion...

How is rehashing the old games compared to raising the bar?  How is raising the bar a yardstick for entertainment?  Do we want to break world records in entertainment games?  Olympics was originally the army training program, you want them to break records, as that is part of military training.  Now Olympics is just corruption for the members on the board, and a big world wide business arrangement.

Back to the topic.  I agree with Loke.  Lets say EQ1.  That game was fun in its days because that was the best game out there.  However, it was not the best I can think of now, and for the life of me, I will not play a recoded EQ1 with top graphics and sound.  Even if they add in all the good UIs, no.  Because the game is a huge grind.

The game was built to slow down "progress" deliberately.  What do we do in EQ1?  I was among the first Ogre to walk out of Oggok.  It is great fun to explore, yes but soon you come to the limits of your exploration, namely mob levels.  You start sitting down on a camp site and pull and pull, for weeks till you get enough level to do what?  Find another camp.

That is all EQ1 is.  Camp, pull, mess, tank, dps, heal.  Repeat for hours.  I can stomach the corpse runs.  I can enjoy the long march to a raid spot.  But I find it stupid, look back now, to realise I spend a whole month in the same zone, same dungeon, pulling the same few mobs, and hoping that a rare boss spawns instead of a place holder, and that a rare drop spawns instead of the normal one.  That I spend months trying to dodge trains, to fight and bicker with other camps over a mob between our camps, about mob stealing.  That I spend weeks arguing with another guild as to who has the plane of XYZ next week, who has the right to the next spawn of a boss 2 week later, which is needed for the epic sword of stupidity for my class, that ... come on, I pay to do that?

I woke up.  No.  That is not entertainment.  That is running around a maze, a lab rat's life.  I want not to be part of that any more.  I am old, yes.  I am no longer the big guy waving a big sword.  Or was I ever one?

Originally posted by GVNR
Kithkor Forest, how I remember with dread my time running scared through there. The get it fast, want it now for nothing generation have dictated the industry for too long. Just because they are the loudest does not make them right!

We were better back in our days?  In the eyes of my friends, school mates, I was a freak back then when I could spent my entire bedrest medical vacation camping a dungeon hoping to beat the final hell level (49).  Yes one whole week to move a couple levels to hit 50.

Now you want to judge the new generation and say they are poor, weak, impatient ...  We have been victims of unnecessary judgment, try not to do that to our next gen pls.

World has changed, IT, internet, google maps, everything has changed, and changing faster and faster.  The next gen is raised amidst a totally different background.  What they want and desire is definitely not what we do when we were young.  Now that I am old, I no longer am the old self, I find it stupid camping the same boss non stop for many hours, for one small chip of color on my xp bar, or in those days, we call mini-ding.

Are we right?  Are they wrong?  Is there any way of passing an objective judgment?  Do we need judgment, do we need to name call them, and pass verdicts?  Can we just co-exist?

We are getting old, it is their world.  Time to recognise we are fading and they are the next gen, the coming gen.  We no longer are.  ME, no longer is.

Outstanding article I heartfully agree with everything. Remember Plane of Fear or Plane of Hate? Man both deserved that names, mess up and good luck  trying to regain your corpse.

Gonna use some of the phrases for my sig, cause they are - as the news - marvelous well done.

For me it will always be like that:

Dont have time? Don't play

Wanna just pop and instantly have fun? Go play a FPS or hack n slash

Wanna play solo? Don't play a MMORPG

Can't handle risk versus reward? Wrong genre for you

Can't deep/complex and dangerous gameplay? see above

Vanguard could have been all that, jnust Soe sabotaged them from the get go it so sad really. I know, some people have high hopes for Everquest 3 but I don't think it will be anywhere near our beloved game.

It's like light beer.  Not quite the same, not nearly as substantial, but people scarf it down by the bucket load.

I'm on the fence on this one.  Most points I agree with, but durn do I hate quest text the way it is done now.  When a quest takes 20 minutes (about my average in WoW) and it take 80 to 120 of them to finish a zone and get a level... it's an intrusion.  I like drama, I like storyline, but the modern quest systems are so fudged together than I don't care WHY the Gnome wants me to go collect 10 rat tails.

It would be different if the quests were more than tasks, but they're not.  Just give me my FedEx slip and let me go deliver this.