I am fine with trinity. I absolutely love playing tank not because i want to feel 'wanted' and important but because that playstyle i enjoy the most. I don't believe it is a bad game design because MMOS have been doing perfectly fine with holy trinity. GW2 will come and go but trinity is not going anywhere in my opinion.

The holy trinity isn't broken, problem is that it was never supposed to be a triad, the first MMO's to utilize it had classes even more specialized so that in addition to a healer, tank, and dps your group needed to have proper crowd control, buffers and other specialized characters such as speeders.

In the old DAOC, the 8 man group size and multiple classes lead to some very interesting group dynamics both in PVE and in PVP, sure the enemy went after the CC/Healers first, and your group did its best to keep those folks alive the longest.

Tanks lead the "train" against the groups target's in PVP, and while they were last to die, Mythic actually changed that dynamic by giving them a "shield" of sorts that let them put their hp's into a designated healer making it imperiative the enemy kill the tanks first to make it possible to kill the healers.

Problem with modern MMO's is they keep collapsing the skills down into increasingly hybrid classes which as someone noted, gives no one a chance to be "special".

I was actually a great healer in DAOC, and did pretty good as a Minstrel with my buffs, crowd controls and what not.

Stealther I was poor at, but those with the dexterity could be devestating as they switched through their many weapons/poisons.

So in the end, I've enjoyed well designed "trinity" mechanics, problem is, there's hasn't been a decent one made in many years.

Originally posted by sonoggi

in addition, every character must be able to heal, CC, evade CC, mitigate damage, burst on demand, and teleport in some way. without this, PVP cant be balanced. it's as simple as that. WoW has shown us this, LoL has shown us this, and TOR will show us this. WoW and LoL have actually moved away from the trinity significantly, in PVP anyways, just so they could be called "competitive games".

DAOC proved you wrong many years ago, the PVP in a group vs group situation was actually quite balanced. and in many occasions the few were able to beat the many.

Specialization is actually the way to go IMO.

While I don't mind innovation in game design, I have no issues with the holy trinity.

I realize that you're trying to defend an untenable position here.  Maybe I should cut you some slack for that.  If a defendent commits a crime in front of 20 eyewitnesses and a security camera, it's not his lawyer's fault if he gets convicted; the lawyer simply didn't have any plausible case to make.

But still, you can't address any of the criticisms of the trinity system?  And you fail to make a single point in favor of it?  Egad.

Let's look at your attempted points in favor of the trinity system:

"MMOs strive to make players feel special, and well, it’s hard to feel ‘special’ when just about anyone else can do what you can do in a group."

I can think of a number of instances in a variety games where I felt special for one reason or another.  And none of them were due to the trinity system.  "Player X can't do what I do because he's the wrong class" doesn't make me feel special if many thousands of other players can do what I do.  "Player X can't do what I do and couldn't even if he had my gear because I'm better at the game than he is" is a different matter.  The trinity system makes that much harder to do.

"The trinity, as divisive as it can sometimes be, also helps forge community."

Which is better for forging community:

a)  getting a group and doing group content, or

b)  trying to get a group and failing because you can't find a healer?

The trinity system will often push you toward choice (b).  You've found a drawback of the system, proclaimed it an advantage for no apparent reason in particular, and then moved on.

"Flexibility also causes additional loot drama. Maybe not so much for guilds with strict systems for loot distribution, but certainly in PUGs or more casual guilds."

No.  Flexibility doesn't cause loot drama.  Badly designed loot systems cause loot drama.  I've done an awful lot of PUGs in Guild Wars, Wizard 101, and Spiral Knights, and never had loot drama in any of them.  You know why?  Because the loot system doesn't allow it.

If a game has need/greed rolling for loot, then of course it's going to have loot drama.  That has nothing to do with the trinity.  It's a badly designed loot system.  It's kind of like saying that if a game's servers are awful, then it's going to have lag.  Don't blame that on the trinity, as it has nothing to do with trinity mechanics.

"Ultimately, as long as aggro mechanics remain as they are, the holy trinity is likely here to stay."

Well that's pretty easy to fix.  Come up with a more sensible aggro system and there's no need for the holy trinity.  See, for example, Guild Wars.

You're basically arguing that we need trinity in order to enable some other badly-designed game mechanic.  But you never argue as to why we need the other badly-designed game mechanic, for the obvious reason that we don't.

well thought out and well written.  I have mixed feelings about the Trinity, but you really hit most of the important "pros". though i think the Trinity is even more successful when there are other vital jobs besides the three (like in eq1 where groups needed crowd control and a slower)

you mentioned my favourite argument in favour of the trinity, that being that it fosters the multiplayer aspect of mMorpgs.

Look i like the trinity. I love to heal just adore it its the funnest thing ive ever done in an mmo and to think before i maxed out my shaman i didnt mind dps. 

The pally and shaman changed that for me 

i want classes that have unique mechanics to them sure balance them but whats wrong with clases have abilites or being better at one thing then another class. 

i loved that my pally was great at aoe tanking and my warrior was great at single target tankng

i loved that my shaman was one of the best raid healers and didnt care that pallies and priests were much better tank healers

Then cata came out and wow fucked that all up by turning all healers into beign good at everything except they forgot the fact priests and palies have huge heals that shamans and druids lacked so shamans and druids were now not a top healer at anything. 

They took away aoe tanking for the most part becasue warriors werent godo at it so what. 

Warrirors were great at what they did which was single target tanking they could take the bosses big hit better then my pally sure i could tank the boss on my pally but i perfered to grab the adds as thats what the pally was best at. 

oh well that said im gonna play tor now for the very fact that i want the story if i cant be unique with my role i wanna at least hav ea unique story and choices that impact my gameplay.

sharook you are right!when was the last time player had to adapt their game play to win vs a raid boss or a pvp group that is good!it never happen.here is what happen,raid get nerfed and pvp get balanced(some get nerfed some get buffed,so the only thing player has to do is wait it they get easy way out(wouldnt want to make our player sweat!lol

specializations, (the holy trinity is just some of them), are still unexplored by the developers, it can be much more, removing specs is going to throw the genre back.

hybrids are only better than specializations when you are alone.

anyway, about the holy trinity, I played many MMOs, some of them had good trinity and some did not. It all depends on how the devs created the boss encounter, it is not the holy trinity fault if the boss fight is bad/boring.

Originally posted by rpgalon

specializations, (the holy trinity is just some of them), are still unexplored by the developers, it can be much more, removing specs is going to throw the genre back.

hybrids are only better than specializations when you are alone.

 

anyway, about the holy trinity, I played many MMOs, some of them had good trinity and some did not. It all depends on how the devs created the boss encounter, it is not the holy trinity fault if the boss fight is bad/boring.

Agreed. Also they have decided to make all classes play alike now. thats stupid. 

i want my class to be unique i knwo in wow that ws never comletly true but it fetl true at times. I liked knowing i was a raid healer not a tank healer i liked haveing specific role in raids. 

I dont like the anyone can do anything crap it makes all classes play the same and gets boring.

In my very insignificant opinion, MOST people who attack the Trinity in real hate to cooperate. They loath the feeling of depening on someone else, and thus prefer to be Gods: omnipotent chars which can do ALL thing alone by themselves. Chars that can tank, dmg and heal all at the same time. And to hell with teamwork and cooperation. It's the trend of our days, everywhere.

Originally posted by Sharook

Your last paragraph points it out: the holy trinity exists merely because of artificial aggro-mechanics for npcs.

the "tank" dude, which in your imagination is supposed to be a mighty warrior, is nothing but a loudmouth (taunttaunttaunt) in a steelcan (mitigation)

--> boring

your dps-guy, which in your imagination is supposed to be a mighty mage or a berserker, is a glass cannon, that falls apart if npcs only scowl at him

--> boring

your healer is service-personell with a masochistic helper-syndrome who is a helpless victim when he get's slapped

--> boring and frustrating

you really want to tell me that this is the very top of the evolution of mmo game design? i beg to differ

that trinity is some sort of artificial bullcrap you see in pvp, since taunt does not work on PCs -> and thus the healer dies first, then the dps and the tank get's ignored because he is not dangerous without the other 2

after so many hours it eventually gets boring to fight against stupid automatons that are driven by an aggrolist and not the slightest notion of AI. no matter how challenging it might be in terms of npc-damage, hp, numbers, loot etc.

i remember from my wow days as a holy priest, how incredibly boring and unrewarding it felt to be in a raid. for hours you don't see anything else than healthbars. for you the game is about making short yellow and red healthbars into longer green healthbars. tetris is more exiting than that.

also you talk about loot drama, if all classes is hybrid. that shows what a narrow tunnel perspective you have on the concept of mmos. to you it's all about raids and gear. pshh. maybe for 13years old. mmos can be much more than that. even blizzard has noticed that mere 5% of their customers are actually doing raids. so if the majority does something else, and there is no need for big raids with utterly specialized individuals that are only able to perform one dimension in a multi-dimensional space of possible activities, then maybe there is no need for stupidified ai and the holy trinity at all?

humans want to have challenges in games, yes, but the challenge should come from an unexpected situation and lie in the ability of the players to adapt to that situation in order to prevail and succeed.

todays raid mechanics give you a "groundhog day" feeling, where the challenges lie in the big numbered properties of the opponents (hp, damage, ae-effects) and raidgroups do nothing but empirically  (trial and error) approach the optimal solution to the raid by optimizing their group, equipment, etc, and repeat the ever the same raid situation until success.

this is like training a dog to hop through a static sequence of fire rings and obstacles, only here the dogs train themselves. there is no demand for situational creativity because the situation is ever the same and varies only slightly at best. in the end we are all well-trained doggies who flawlessly hop through the molten core parcours and get a shiny purple bone for it - or not :-P

summary: the holy trinity is great for ppl, that want to be a well-trained doggie with lots of purple bones to gnaw on

 

This post imo shows how poorly the gaming community - blizzard especially - is being treated today. I'm an older gamer - 41 - and find it sad that the imagination is completely left out of todays games and guys 16-25 are not being rewarded like this.

Playing a priest or healer shouldn't be a game of making yellow and red bars into green ones.

It's honestly getting to the point where it's just not even worth the cash for the games.

If any of you DO remember vanilla wow, there were micro-games in the game. Finding keys, getting that "special" recipe for crafting that hardly anyone had and that you got your name put into the crafting threads for having.

All these things made your character unique, needed in particular occasions despite class and was hence thrown out because people didn't want keys, recipes were too hard to get.

Blame the forum kids.

Originally posted by Elikal

In my very insignificant opinion, MOST people who attack the Trinity in real hate to cooperate.

Holy generalizations batman.

I deplore the trinity mostly because of the requirement for a dedicated healer.  The entire task requires him or her.  They are the most vital part.  You can possibly remove the tank, or remove the DPSers.  Its not optimal but it can be done.  But you can not run anything without a dedicated healer. 

For years there have been different game mechanics that do not require a healer.   So this is just unnessary and highly annoying.  I want to play with my friends and I want them to be able to play the classes they have chosen no matter what they are. 

the problem sometimes with the trinity concept is that often in higher end content some players are left in the cold because it is hard to find that healer or tank when everyone is wanting to lay some smackdown on the bad guys.  Also often rogues/assassin and other specialists are often purposely kept out of raids.

I totally agree about the problems related to the trinity concept.  Not only does it present difficulty when organizing events and raid/quest type events, but every developer who implements the trinity based system into his or her game will ultimately face complaints of one or other of the vocations/classes being unbalanced, overpowered (aka OP) or weak.  That's why in the new open source game server I am currently developing, I have eliminated 4 previous classes and instead created a master class that could do everything that the previous 4 could.  No one will complain of being unbalanced, of having to wait for a certain class so that the event could start, etc etc etc.  The quests/events still need a group of players to successfully complete the event, but it will be simpler and easier, and it will not be as boring as before, which is the common cause of quitting any mmo.  I hope to have my game up within a few months, updates at http://mmo-chronicles.blogspot.com/

quoting a youtube comment:

"then ask yourself, what IS teamwork?? For example, if you have to make a project with a team of 4 persons in RL, and you divide the hole project in 4 pieces, so every person is doing 1 part. Those person's don't speak with each other during the hole project, so they work only on their part and when that's finished, they just put everything together. Do you call that? teamwork? Because that's how most MMORPG's works. CrypteX250"