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The Element of Surprise I'll use Star Wars: The Old Republic's Hope Trailer as the primary example: The False Image: Malgus leads a Sith army into Republic territory. However, they are caught off guard by Hacov Squad, an elite special forces squad of Republic troopers. They ambush the Sith army from atop a large hill. The Republic, although greatly outnumbered, pull off the win. The Truth: Who wouldn't want to experience the virtual combat and emotion within "Hope"? However, it's almost embarrassing to actually think PvP will be anything like this. In our world of instanced PvP, combat is to be expected within 60 to 90 seconds. Thus, the Sith army would've been pre-buffed, tab-targetting, and expecting combat at the most obvious points in the map. Instanced PvP becomes a redundant rinse and repeat type grind for gear.
Enemy Name Tags Much like the concept above, enemy name tags void the element of surprise. These gaudy identification plates need to be be changed on the PvP Servers. These enemy tags should only be viewable if one either clicks on or is within 20 meters of the enemy.
PvE Players and Their Axiom of Safe PvP: Instanced PvP Takes Over; World PvP is Pointless I can understand the desire for optional PvP. PvE players should have choice. However, their yearning for consensual PvP has spilled into the realm of Red Servers (PvP). PvP Servers have become nothing more than a mimicked world of Instanced-Dominated PvE, but with the option to attack on the mainland. The problem is there is virtually no point to attack an enemy player in the open world.
Development Costs Money Battlegrounds, Warzones, Warfronts, Arenas, etc require minimal depth. It's much easier to make 4-5 maps, slap a few control points down, and limit the teams to a 5-10 player limit. PvP Only Servers deserve something more innovative, e.g., the ability to infiltrate and attack the major cities, the ability to plant and destroy strongholds anywhere, the ability to actually use the enviroment (climb walls, buildings, rocks, trees, etc), the ability to somewhat control the politics of the server, etc. However, this would cost time and money. I guess it's just easier to go with the current trend: max out box sales now and struggle for subscriptions later.
What Level is He? The level of an enemy player should always be hidden. It amazes me how many level 50s will only attack levels 49 and below. Something as simple as hiding one's level can greatly change whether or not one is attacked.
Forced Gear Incentive Battlegrounds are popular, yes. However, how many people do you think would honestly play them if all item rewards were removed? That incentive alone is a major factor as to why people delve into such an instanced system on the PvP Servers.
Ultimate Point: Instanced PvP belongs on PvE Servers. |
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8/30/11 1:48:48 PM#2
Fully agree with your assessment. PVP in a can or e-sports aren't realistic war simulations and don't belong on pvp servers in mmoRPG's. EVE is a great example of a game with thrilling pvp, out in the open world yet without arena like content (apart from the yearly Alliance Tournament but that doesn't count). But just to be sure ... you did get the memo that Swtor will have multiple planets which will be conflict zones featuring territory claiming goodness, didn't you? I am just very thankful that Swtor will at least HAVE open world pvp, (and an extra helping on pvp servers), next to the mandatory battlegrounds, whilst a game like GW2 only has people holding hands out in the main world and completely banishes pvp to the consentual realm. V_V *temporarily sigless* |
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8/30/11 1:52:44 PM#3
Originally posted by DarkPony Could you please load your language a little more? |
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8/30/11 1:55:16 PM#4
Could you please care to elaborate a little more on what in earth you are actually trying to say? *temporarily sigless* |
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8/30/11 1:56:40 PM#5
Originally posted by precious328 LOL's over the whole article and images. It's all o-so true... And mostly thanks to EQ2 and WoW... That's why I don't play these 2-faction based MMO's with instanced PvE/PvP, or any fixed faction based PvP MMO at all. Look at 2 awesome games out there where all (or at least most - nametags are a manditory problem in all MMO's) the above is not true: EVE online and Lineage II. |
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8/30/11 2:04:48 PM#6
Originally posted by DarkPony http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loaded_language
Too much drama the way you word it. |
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8/30/11 2:25:33 PM#7
Originally posted by Exilor I was just saying the truth as I see it. Fact: There will be no pvp whatsoever in GW2's main game world; pvp will always be restricted to arena / battleground / minigame areas and the Mists and it will always be consentual. Can't say it nicer than that but I can post some drinks to make it go down easier: I haven't even touched the scaling systems to buff players to a similar level to make things more fair in GW2's pvp. (Which I really don't like: I want to FEAR my enemy's highly trained specialists (read: higher leveled & better geared enemies) out in the open). In war there is almost never balance or fairness. I played Lotro for a few months which also is a greatly immersive game but lacking all pvp out in the main world. That eventually made me quit as the world started to feel so predictable and safe. Anyway, SWTOR seems a much more interesting game for open world pvp fans imo. *temporarily sigless* |
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8/30/11 2:29:32 PM#8
Originally posted by DarkPony Bottoms up! |
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8/30/11 2:32:23 PM#9
Originally posted by Exilor Cheers, mate. *temporarily sigless* |
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8/30/11 2:34:19 PM#10
Interesting read. I cracked up at the Karate Kid picture LOL |
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8/30/11 4:32:04 PM#11
I disagree with the OP's illusion of Instanced PvP always being non-epic.
I rememeber many times in Old AV from WoW where battles were simply Epic!!!! the battles could last a full day. Yet it was totally instanced. The only time I had that much fun from PvP in WoW, was back in WoTLK beta during Wintergrasp's 15min cooldown period days, since battles were non stop like Old AV.
Instanced PvP battles can be so great if done right. Developers take a lot of concepts from WoW, but never do they take concepts from Old AV, for some strange reason...
The battles need to last long periods, and have many objectives and things to do, and be large scale 40+vs40+
thats how Epic Instanced PvP should be done. |
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8/30/11 4:51:15 PM#12
Well, I mean we have to be a little honest. These guys(GW2, TOR) are aiming for mainstream success. And mainstream success does not include "real" open world pvp. The % of people who actually enjoy that is probably very low(sandbox gamers) and the last thing they want are people complaining in forums about how they got ganked for the 90th time while trying to finish a quest and thus will cancel their subscription....
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8/30/11 4:59:59 PM#13
Originally posted by MMOExposed I had a lot of fun in vanilla AV! |
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8/30/11 5:10:36 PM#14
Well written post and although a PvE player, I agree with it. Also had a hearty laugh at Gankenstein in the grass :) |
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8/30/11 5:10:38 PM#15
Originally posted by waynejr2 Oh I remember AV alright, I rode the epic goat reward to prove it. I had some great times in there too but I also vividly remember the frustration I felt about people not cooperating, afk leachers and the sheer lineair grind of it; the slow moving zerg traveling the same trajectory, over and over again. V_V I think I must have yelled "PUSH!" a thousand times in there. Pretty appropriate as it really does resemble a woman doing labour: a painful and slow process. I agree there were fun aspects though, and it's much closer to world pvp than most other bg's, but I'd rather see those aspects implemented on a much vaster scale and much more open, as a genuine part of the gameworld. *temporarily sigless* |
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8/30/11 5:15:46 PM#16
" Ultimate Point: Instanced PvP belongs on PvE Servers. "
I have been saying this for years.
OP great post !!! |
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kakasaki
 Hard Core Member
Joined: 6/11/06
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room!" |
8/30/11 5:54:30 PM#17
An excellent, well though-out post!
My own opinion is PvP servers are a bad idea anyway. A successful PvP game should be designed from the ground-up as a PvP game and not as mostly PvE with some PvP thrown in just for the look of the thing. Today’s developers try way too hard to appeal to all kinds of gaming types with the end result of you end up with a watered down game that fails to hold the interest of the PvP crowd.
As far as some of your other points, the one that really sticks out for me is the “What level is he?” part of your argument. I said the same thing in another thread here a while back. Having players not know the level of their opponent will make them think twice before engaging in PvP combat (thus reducing griefing) as well as having the added benefits of increasing the “risk” factor so many of us PvP players miss in current PvP games.
A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true... |
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Shiineko
 Novice Member
Joined: 4/16/06
Achiever 20.00%, Explorer 53.33%, Killer 100.00%, Socializer 26.67% |
8/31/11 3:30:14 AM#18
I completely agree with everything that was stated by the thread creator. Damn, dude. You are a genius. As you can see by my "Achiever 20.00%, Explorer 53.33%, Killer 100.00%, Socializer 26.67%" I'm very much into PVPing. However, I completely detest the way it is put into modern MMOs. Everything is so carebear now. No item looting? No risk, just wait on respawn? Endless grinding for gear in battlegrounds/warfronts instead of actual open-world pvp?!
I know I reference Neocron in a lot of my posts on here, but the game had some of the best ideas and implementations. In the original Neocron you would drop 1 item from your inventory upon death. You had 1 quickslot which was "locked" so that was never dropped. Then it changed to you would drop a quickbelt which had to be "hacked" with the appropriate level of hacking.... Which meant not every single person would be able to loot your stuff, but some could.
I fought 3 people at once back in the old NC. I was coming to the aid of a clan member who was being ganked. My heart was racing.. My hands were sweating.. I only managed to kill 2 of them and the last one killed me. It was such an epic fight, though. We eventually got some others over there and cleaned up.
I mention that story because.... Outside of Neocron? I've never had that experience ever again. In Age of Conan, if I was fighting 3 people at once and died...... so what? World of Warcraft I die in pvp? Oh well, just run back to my corpse. Same with most other MMOs out there. Where is the actual FUN in pvp anymore?!? Bring risk back to the table and let's have some fun. |
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8/31/11 4:42:30 AM#19
One way to kill PvP servers is to introduce PvE servers. What are you going to prey on if all the lambs are gone? Wolfs hunting wolfs... Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference. -Author unknown, attributed to Mark Twain |
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8/31/11 6:02:35 AM#20
Originally posted by Quirhid To a certain degree you are right. Actually, to a frightening degree you are right, and it's because there seems to be some thinking on the part of both players and devs, completely contrary to history and experience, that a good PVP server has to be solely PVP. For a shooter or a game like GW where people are jumping into PVP from Day One, I'd say that's doable. However, if there is going to be PVE content, especially PvE content that works in conjunction with the PVP content in any way, it seems the best way to design the PVP server is to offer some level of insulation to from the PVP for those that want to enjoy the PvE. While a lot of Old School PKs may disagree, the introduction of Trammel was a leap forward from the guard zones of the cities. I'd venture to say that if the original UO had more guarded hunting grounds, housing areas and dungeons, then Trammel would never have been necessary and UO would have done even better from the very start. This is because the PVPers need resources and crafted materials in UO to riase skilss or fight better. Now, each person has a certain aspect of a game that they like to focus on. The more the PvPer can enjoy PVPing and not doing activities he needs to do rather than wants to do, the more he is a happy camper. The best way to facilitate that is to create an environment such that the gatherer and the baker and the tailor can all provide those things. Well, What's good for the goose is good for the gander, and if someone really enjoys sewing up badass armor sets, they want to spend their time doing that and not spend it running from axe-wielding fireball-casting maniacs at every corner. By building the worldspace so that each playstyle can go about their thing with more DO WANT game time and less NEED TO game time, the more fun it is for everyone. The games that have successfully done that in one server while maintaining a certain level of world PVP (examples: UO, EVE, Runescape, Puzzle Pirates) have done so by creating a world where the 20% or so of the playerbase that wants to frag each other to death has plenty of space to do that while the 80% of the player base that wants to enjoy the 80% of the content that doesn't involve homicidal wilding can do that with minimal or greatly reduced fear of an unpleasant experience. Now, some may feel that I am advocating a softer world and not truly in favor of a 'real' PVP server. My contention is the opposite - in my dream MMO, the PVPers are killing each other, not killing tailors. They throw the spoils of war at the tailor and say "Sew me armor, bitch,: and the tailor gladly does it.... at 400% markup. Such a scenario can't happen if your PVPers are ganking dressmakers for months until the dressmakers flee the game in horror.
IMO, a good world PVP server offers reasonable protection (not necessarily complete protection) in the majority of the worldspace from PVP in order to allow the other playstyles to flourish unmolested. Not only does this go a long way toward making the PvE content more enjoyable, but it makes the PVP gameplay more enjoyable as well, by allowing the presence of a deeper and more varied gameplay experience surrounding the PVP.
Game Stuff: 2003 - The Golden Age of Diversity in MMOs WoW is a sandbox of warcraft. It has more developer made contents, but still the freedom to do what I want when I want to." - MMOExposed |
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8/31/11 12:35:19 PM#21
Dark age of camelot RvR nuff said |
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8/31/11 12:44:57 PM#22
Originally posted by Skuall The secret world sounds even better. |
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8/31/11 1:00:21 PM#23
Originally posted by Greenzor yeah, the way you can combo your 7 active skills with your passive skills and yours teammates 7 active skills to get bonus effects looks nice, and a 1v1v1 territorial war open 24/7 does not fall behind, I hope they can deliver.
EDIT: I just finished reading this: http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/08/31/pax-2011-funcom-discusses-tsws-pvp-arg-and-more/#continued "The team took this time to point out a new feature that had been added to the game's engine: dynamic lights. This feature allows players to create lights to help illuminate their surroundings, whether in the form of a headlamp or placeable emergency flares. This new utility proved useful in the sparsely lit building in which the mission was set, but dynamic lights aren't all rays of sunshine. Using a headlamp or flare will also attract enemies, which can spell trouble for the player. Of course, this can also be used to the player's advantage by placing a light in a location where he wants creatures to go. These lights will also be available in PvP, where players will have more to worry about than just a mob's aggro range. In these situations, players will have to determine whether it's more important to see their way around or avoid being seen by other players." OMG! |
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9/01/11 1:42:12 AM#24
TSW PvP indeed sounds good and 3 factions is one of the reasons I believe it might actually work.
Then again, Failcom doesn't have a very impressive track record of delivering, so I'll hold my judgement until this game is actually live. |
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9/01/11 2:17:07 AM#25
Of course, if you really wanted PvP to reflect real world warfare, you would have to reduce it to two elements: gear and skill. Level wouldn't even come into to play. Not mention that there would be no healers, permadeath, and combat fatigue. You'd be lucky if you survived a single battle. Which is why the best PvP follows the middle path between fun and realism. The Buddha knew a lot about PvP.
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