Originally posted by ActionMMORPG

Originally posted by Darlok66

Thats some poor choices or reasons.  There is no choice for me along with a majority.  Do I like raiding? Yes I like raiding but I loathe the gear grind which is why I don't raid.

 

Same but different reasons.  Raiding would be fun if I could make it work for me.  I've been in a few, back during WoW vanilla.  None since.

 

I don't mind a gear grind.  I despise guild politics.  I work 12 to 15 hours a day on average and don't get time to game much and would never be able to keep up with a guild schedule.  There's no way I'd try to PUG a raid spot.

Four people from our guild in WoW(mug'thul)  ran pug raids with our alts on sundays (one level below the current raid). It worked really really well. Anyone could join but we did end up letting randoms pay to get that one item if it dropped  everything else was randomly rolled for. We let greens come to BWL first come first serve sometimes it didnt work but it was always more fun than the main guild raids. 

Personally raiding is like everything else its fun unless it becomes a job.  

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by MMOExposed

Originally posted by Darlok66

Thats some poor choices or reasons.  There is no choice for me along with a majority.  Do I like raiding? Yes I like raiding but I loathe the gear grind which is why I don't raid.

Will you people stop linking Gear Grind to Raiding....!!!!

 

In WoW for example,,, everything you dom, not just Raiding, leads up to some sort of Gear Reward! Stop trying to justify your hatred for Raidings due to Gear Grinding.

Because clearly you dont seem to have a problem with Gear Grinding Mobs/Party Dungeons/ Quest/ anything else non raiding

 LOL I know for real.  Thanks for posting this.

I don't know why some people here can't realize that raiding as an activity does not have to have anything to do with a gear grind.  It's just doing a dungeon with a large group, that's it.

I personally don't like raiding because well...I don't like raiding.  It has nothing to do with the gear grind.  I just don't like the time committment and the organization required; it also makes me feel less important because I'm basically just a cog in a big machine.

You know why people associate the two? Because almost all of the games that have raids have the gear grind along with it. It is the carrot on the stick.

I don't mind raids so much. But when you have to continually run them to get the gear so you can advance to the next raid...that is what I absolutely despise.

I am a fan of well made raids. It is one of the funnest parts of MMOs when you get with a good group of people and perfect your group play. Downing difficult content with a bunch of friends is a welcomed addition to a game. I guess I could play a game without raiding if it was made well, but it to me is part of making a good game.

I think a lot of people that say they hate raiding probably grab whatever group they can and burn themselves out on several unsuccessful runs. It can get boring if gear is your only objective, but a game should be about the overall experience not just the pretty things you get. Raid for the sake of killing tough bosses, and doing it more then once should just be to see if you can do it better.

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by Golelorn

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by MMOExposed

Originally posted by Darlok66

Thats some poor choices or reasons.  There is no choice for me along with a majority.  Do I like raiding? Yes I like raiding but I loathe the gear grind which is why I don't raid.

Will you people stop linking Gear Grind to Raiding....!!!!

 

In WoW for example,,, everything you dom, not just Raiding, leads up to some sort of Gear Reward! Stop trying to justify your hatred for Raidings due to Gear Grinding.

Because clearly you dont seem to have a problem with Gear Grinding Mobs/Party Dungeons/ Quest/ anything else non raiding

 LOL I know for real.  Thanks for posting this.

I don't know why some people here can't realize that raiding as an activity does not have to have anything to do with a gear grind.  It's just doing a dungeon with a large group, that's it.

I personally don't like raiding because well...I don't like raiding.  It has nothing to do with the gear grind.  I just don't like the time committment and the organization required; it also makes me feel less important because I'm basically just a cog in a big machine.

But you linked raiding to being central to end game in your poll. Name one game with a raid centric end game that doesn't have a gear grind.

 

 I hate raiding. I avoid any games with a raiding centric end-game. - 8.6%

 

Its perfectly rational for someone to think your poll is talking about raiding centric games, instead of games where raiding is optional or doesn't exist. Especially since you ask that question specifically!!

 Touche, I did do that.  I basically put that in there because almost all raiding now a days is done at the end-game.  I didn't mean to imply that the poll was specifically meant for end game raiding, but I could see how that could be misinterpreted.

The poll is supposed to be about do you like raiding or not.  Simple question, no secret gotchas in there.  Just a 1-5 scale of how much you like raiding.  It doesn't have to be end-game raiding.  it doesn't have to be gear grind raiding.  Just raiding :).

I gotcha. I just hate raiding. Or, at least, the raiding I've encountered in games like DAoC, EQ, WoW, and DDO(which was the best but still got boring after awhile). I found that one person rarely mattered, and a player's skill is diminshed by the sheer number of people involved. IMO, the rewards are far greater than the risk/skill necessary.

Originally posted by karat76

It is not so much the raiding but the type of people I have encountered during PVE raids. Was not as bad in EQ but in WoW it ruined they whole concept for me. Also the way I have seen most raid guilds operate the game becomes more like a job and a game is for entertainment not  a vocation.

I understand exactly how you feel, and there is a cure for it and the only cure, just the job to dig a guild that suits you, people with the same humour, propably a group that is not too serious about the raiding, that usually works :)

i like raiding, i just dont like the people or the time commitments where someone is constantly whining at you "just one more (boss/attempt)" over and over again

I love raiding.

I hate grinding raids.

Makes no sense to me...raids should be progressive, you beat a zone you move to the next, having to grind the same zone "x" number of times after beating it is just ridiculous.

Caveat:  I hate tank and spank small number of enemy raiding.  I actually like PvE raiding that involves your large group versus many many PvE enemies with multiple waves etc.  Something like the PvE raiding in Global Agenda is pretty cool.

Tank and spank raiding is awful and end game itself is generally stupid.  Might as well call it what it is, they neuter the game to half its features and 1/10 of its content and give you a big ass carrot.  Its a pathetic farce.

another terrible poll with no real choices.. what about i love raiding but cant be bothered with 24/7 raid grinding and being locked down to certain framerate every day..

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Originally posted by Creslin321
LOL I know for real.  Thanks for posting this.
I don't know why some people here can't realize that raiding as an activity does not have to have anything to do with a gear grind.  It's just doing a dungeon with a large group, that's it.
I personally don't like raiding because well...I don't like raiding.  It has nothing to do with the gear grind.  I just don't like the time committment and the organization required; it also makes me feel less important because I'm basically just a cog in a big machine.

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Hmmm not really or at least my experiences differ. I don't mind raiding and having fun even with large groups. While I'd rather settle with bout 3-5 people, bigger numbers doesn't mean it's bad. My first raid was just like that. Pure fun, no experience, no strings attached, not even a mic to speak on vent and no gear to obtain.

But then gear gating(aka You have to get set from 1st raid to go to 2nd, etc.) came and suddenly, laid back and chilled people started actually care and got serious. About someone mistake that led to wipe, about someone not having some stupid potion and finally THE LOOT assignment. DKPs instead simple drop dead list, no alt rule, experienced only people rule. And it started to suck. Those were same people who told me, that they like someone new who'll mess raid to make it more fun. So I guess it was about loot after all.

Why? I guess it's exactly like You said: commitment, organization, more people wanting to raid than spots(and to few to make 2 full raids), cliches, some people just not getting along with each other. That + not heaving gear = being excluded from further content. And behold - let the drama(and 2nd job feeling) begin! And to think it was in mature guild full of adults. This experience put me absolutely against gear driven group content. More - look at WoW - You're just a GS number there for majority. People don't do it for fun, they do it to get gear, like in some zombie movie - moaning - purplez!

So again I'm back in casual small guild, but occasionally we do some raid, just for kicks. No one cares about loot or progressing further. We just go if there are enough of us online. And that kind of large grouping I don't mind at all.

So back to poll option. Do I like raiding or not? With no gear, just for fun - sure, I enjoy it. With gear progression - no, I hate it.

One of the main reasons i dislike gamers

Raids require no true skill, its predetermined and scripted events that can be countered by a single program alone...There is nothing hard about it expect the devs and players which they call it "HAARDCOOAAR" so they can feel slightly better about themselves.

Only thing pve has is execution and if someone fails to press the button at a certain moment is mistake, and not doing mistakes doesnt make u skilled

The conclusion is taht if raids would exist and generally pve the mmorpgs would be very smaller community wise because people wouldnt be able to get the feeling of "success" or achievemnt(which in turn makes ones sad self feel better) for a not adequately justified reason. And most people would stay on their single player games where they will never truly lose and feel inferior.

The entire feeling of success and the feeling that makes you feel better about yourself is nothing more than a planted seed inside a game by the developer that tries to make u feel better to get your money. Sadly not many will accept that and instead will cover behind the obvious things saying i am talking about competitive game or they just have fun... FUN IS EXACTLY A FEELING THAT MAKES YOU FEEL BETTER yet everyone uses it....

And justified reasons for such feelings should only come when someone achieves something actually hard that requires THINKING and not following a guide of how to because even the most mentally challenged perosn can do something following guides... Winning a pvp combat due to strategy and placement of some characters is skill, winning because the enemy players are idiots and attack the tanks instead of casters in simply stupid not skill...

I hope at least some people understand why gigantic empty and fragile egos are bad

Almost every user created poll on this forum has very poorly thought out choices, and this poll is a prime example of that.

I like to raid if all of the following is true: there is so much raid content that it would take many months to do it all; the developing company actively makes enough new raiding content to keep me from finishing it; the game is designed in such a way that the purpose of raiding is to engage in high quality, very challenging, dungeon crawling with large groups of people; the purpose of raiding is not gear grinding, status grinding, achievement grinding, or any other kind of ridiculousness; the PVE mechanics of the game are well designed and allow for skill and strategy to prevail; and the end game community is friendly and constructive, as opposed to elitist and jerkish.

Your poll isn't sufficient as it currently stands, since I only like raiding if those conditions are true. If those conditions aren't true, then the game better have some kind of other long term, satisfactory end game or else there is no point in playing at max level.

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Originally posted by Wolfy2449
Only thing pve has is execution and if someone fails to press the button at a certain moment is mistake, and not doing mistakes doesnt make u skilled

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You're saying like in PvP every win was a result of perfectly executed strategy and proper reactions. But more often then not someone just made a mistake and You haven't. Not doing mistakes doesn't make u skilled - see what I did there?

But without nitpicking - PvP is more dynamic, more about fast reactions, yet human error comes from both sides. In PvE it's human error only on one side as AI is flawless, but less dynamic as You know what is coming. So more twitch based gameplay vs less. Each to their own...

i put neutral, i might raid to help a friend/guildy but i'm not a big fan of it. would rather have good content leading up to max lvl. more interested in non-combat things being done well.

Tank and spank geargrinders never really appealed to me.

Lots of people seem to enjoy it which is fine. Personally I prefer having fun with a few friends instead of spending a lot of time trying to organize a 24 man virtual excursion based on mindless "rotations" and a set of specific roles. 

I prefer skillbased/organized PvP and a casualfriendly approach to storytelling PvE. GW2 seems to be the only real option for me within the next year or two.

Until a game company comes up with a random dungeon generator for raids I am in the "hate them" category.

 I voted I disliked raiding but I would like to clarify something.

I don't hate the experience and story that goes into some of the raids nor do I dislike the challenge. Clearing out content and experienceing the lore is rewarding to me and if it holds a challenge, then that makes the completion all the sweeter.

What I don't like is the elitist mindset that comes over the people that concidder themselves "hardcore" raiders, nor do I think content requiring more than the regular sized group more of a challenge necessarily. The  "hardcore raider" in my experience has usually been someone who either doesn't have real life things going on, or no responcibilities that limit his game time and can afford to invest in the hours that goes into that type of content. This doesn't make the person who raids constantly any better than those that judt don't like the second life that one has to adopt in order to participate in a raid. While having a larger group does offer more options for raiding roles and niches for one to fill in the group, it does'nt mean the content should be held as the standard for what is difficult. If a game, GW2 for example, is able to give me a difficult challenge I can share with friends while actually enjoying the story of it, I am pleased. I don't need larger group requirements to make me feel like I acheived something

.

Originally posted by crazynanny

 

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Originally posted by Wolfy2449
Only thing pve has is execution and if someone fails to press the button at a certain moment is mistake, and not doing mistakes doesnt make u skilled

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You're saying like in PvP every win was a result of perfectly executed strategy and proper reactions. But more often then not someone just made a mistake and You haven't. Not doing mistakes doesn't make u skilled - see what I did there?

But without nitpicking - PvP is more dynamic, more about fast reactions, yet human error comes from both sides. In PvE it's human error only on one side as AI is flawless, but less dynamic as You know what is coming. So more twitch based gameplay vs less. Each to their own...

If u read my post around the end i say that doing stupid mistakes like attacking a tank isntead of the caster(obviously oversimplidied example) dont make it any more skilled than pve. And i wouldnt say that pvp is always skilled, especially with the masses entering pvp and just pressing buttons to cast attacks. Most of the skill is gone mainly because of the slow paced gameplay were everyone has 10000000 health and 3 second attack animations so even the most stupid person wont die immidiately. There has yet to be a game where health is ultra thin, and attacks are quite deadly unless blocked successfully as well as giving the players a 3-4 cooldown teleport ability

But there are a few moments where players actually think and try to predict the enemy's movements or try to use the enviroment to their advantage to save them some time. And these moments are usually when both players have low health and know that a single mistake will kill them, at such a fight a mistake could happen but if you managed to drop the other player so close to death as well, then it is a skilled fight because both of you fought with everything you got before reaching such state.

Now perfect fights vs 2 players with low health are beautiful to watch, each one tries their best and the winner is the one who succeds simply because he played BETTER. I wouldnnt call not being perfect a mistake but i would call stupid things like activating all your teleport abilities from the first minute so the caster can kite you to death after that... That is stupid, being totally outmatched due to stupid mistakes that could be avoided if somoene had brains

P.s. the AI never doing msitakes hahahah, nice joke. The ai has been purposly nerfed to the degree that it is easily defeatable, even if it isnt easy all it would require is faster execution. AI is far from perfect, it tacticts are stupid and obvious so everyone can win him and there is nothing that requires thinking...

If an AI was truly hard it would require huge amounts of code for multiple strategies(no the boss casting a different skill than usual isnt strategy) that had as their goal to defeat the player instead of to let him win, it would be A TRUE CHALLENGE by the developer to the player, asking the player to use his brains to try to counter what troop placement the ai uses and what tactics like retreating for a trap etc he is going to use, the battle would be far bigger than a mere attack that group of mobs... But again i doubt there are many developers that can think something that good that could truly fool GOOD players.

There is no brain in the AI, and something that cant think doesnt deserve to make someone say that they are skilled or HARDCOAAR pros...

I like raids, they are one of the main motives I have to hit end-game. Gear progression can get a bit tedious and grindy at points when that is all a raid is for. Having guild schedules sometimes seems a nuisance when it consumes almost all of your free time, but getting a group that doesn't work that way isn't impossible to find. Raids can seem to be just boring when the entire bossfight is planned out and the execution is just pressing a button at a certain time, but for the first raid(s) of each individual raid they are still entertaining to be a part of (Unless it is a game where each individual raid is the same boss with a different look and numbers).

The two things I want to do at the end of an MMO are Boss and play with others (Hence the second M). Raiding does both as grouping together with people to progressively move up from one raid to the next will always (Unless you are just PUGing) get you people you will become friend with, therefore raiding gives me both Bossing and Multi-Player.

For me, raiding should be an option in a game, but not the pinnacle of what it has to offer.

I have raided in a raiding guild just to see what it was about. To me it was not fun. It was choreography. You just know what you need to do and you do it. You work on a team with other people who are competent enough to do what they are supposed to do and you eventually succeed. Once you figure out the  puzzle, then it's easy to do.

I don't like figuring out puzzles. They are not fun for me. I never had any interest in Rubik's cubes, crosswords, etc. But some people like them and they like working puzzles out with others. I don't hate puzzles or people who enjoy them. I just don't want that to be something I need to do in a game to master it. Nothing wrong with puzzles, though, for people who enjoy them. 

The other aspects of raiding I don't like, aside from the game-play itself, is how people can get when fighting over  or bragging about loot. A LOT OF DRAMA. I don't care for it. And I don't like people linking up their epics in chat looking for ... I don't know what they are looking for. But maybe that's also how some people have fun, so whatever. If they are linking for informational reasons, that can be fun and interesting in terms of discussing aspects of the game.

Also, as others have pointed out, you spend a lot of time waiting, doing administrative and logistical stuff. Getting large groups of people together and organized is not fun for me. And I don't like being part of such groups. Look -- I have a job where I organize and manage people and I have worked as a member of an organization. To me, it is work.

I'm an explorer who likes some PvP action. I don't want to work, and that's what raiding is to me. But raiding itself is not a bad thing if it's fun for you. I want a game that offers different paths to mastery. I don't want raiding to be the peak of what you can achieve.