I agree with the OP and everyone else that did too.  There needs to be more options for the solo/small group player to obtain better gear than just the basic lvl 50 quest/dungeon sets.    

The #1 argument that the raiders always bring up, "why do you need raid level gear if you don't raid?" ~ honestly why not, and why do the raiders care so much that we non-raiders have access to it.  Does it make you special because you have more time and patience...no no it doesn't!   If its in the game, then why can't every type of player earn it in one way or another, without being forced into a type of gameplay they dislike.

Why not do something like Rift is attempting and making the high end raids solo/small group possible, with weekly lockouts and similar low drop percentages.  And each week you have the option to do said instance once while in a full raid or once while solo, maybe twice.  Or add some kind of stipulation to the gear, like PvP arena gear in WoW requires you earn a certain rating to buy/use it.  

Last I heard, isn't the end-game progression only consistent of like 20% of the total population playing of any given MMO, possibly less.  Also why is every MMO post-2004 entirely designed to be solo and small group based, but as soon as you reach end-game you're suddenly forced to raid in large groups to progress!?  And why is it always gear based, why can't it be horizontal stat-based leveling instead.  {like FFXI and their Merit System...}  It doesn't make sense to just drop the solo/small group gameplay upon reaching the cap if you want the best stuff, especially when the entire MMO is designed around the solo/small group player!

EDIT:  Granted though, I do actually plan to get into operations more than I normally would because of the personal loot containers.  Really my biggest beef with raiding is the DKP BS, the arguing over who gets what, ninjas, and overall the stress leading up to the boss that may or may not drop the piece of gear you want, and will you win the roll!  All that should be gone in SW:TOR, but I will still continue to advocate for this gear to become obtainable by other means because I don't always like to raid!

Originally posted by Khrymson

I agree with the OP and everyone else that did too.  There needs to be more options for the solo/small group player to obtain better gear than just the basic lvl 50 quest/dungeon sets.    

The #1 argument that the raiders always bring up, "why do you need raid level gear if you don't raid?" ~ honestly why not, and why do the raiders care so much that we non-raiders have access to it.  Does it make you special because you have more time and patience...no no it doesn't!   If its in the game, then why can't every type of player earn it in one way or another, without being forced into a type of gameplay they dislike.

Why not do something like Rift is attempting and making the high end raids solo/small group possible, with weekly lockouts and similar low drop percentages.  And each week you have the option to do said instance once while in a full raid or once while solo, maybe twice.  Or add some kind of stipulation to the gear, like PvP arena gear in WoW requires you earn a certain rating to buy/use it.  

 

Last I heard, isn't the end-game progression only consistent of like 20% of the total population playing of any given MMO, possibly less.  Also why is every MMO post-2004 entirely designed to be solo and small group based, but as soon as you reach end-game you're suddenly forced to raid in large groups to progress!?  And why is it always gear based, why can't it be horizontal stat-based leveling instead.  {like FFXI and their Merit System...}  It doesn't make sense to just drop the solo/small group gameplay upon reaching the cap if you want the best stuff, especially when the entire MMO is designed around the solo/small group player!

 

 

 

EDIT:  Granted though, I do actually plan to get into operations more than I normally would because of the personal loot containers.  Really my biggest beef with raiding is the DKP BS, the arguing over who gets what, ninjas, and overall the stress leading up to the boss that may or may not drop the piece of gear you want, and will you win the roll!  All that should be gone in SW:TOR, but I will still continue to advocate for this gear to become obtainable by other means because I don't always like to raid!

 

 

There are a lot of raiders who use their gear to measure their accomplishments in life.  Seriously.  There are some that treat MMO's as a game, but there are others that these games become who they are and how they are defined.

Personally, there should always be more than one way to achieve an objective.  I mean, why does it always have to be Gaggle 1 takes on uberMob1 or Gaggle 1 takes on Gaggle 2.  I would find it refreshing if someone in some company somewhere make some game that they were working on able to provide multiple paths to get to a single goal.

As far as raiding goes, I can stand it a little bit, but it's B-O-R-I-N-G-!  And it's tedious and blah blah blah.  I personally have no problem questing for months at a time to get that one sweet item.  I also have no problem mixing the different play styles to achieve said item (solo play here, group play there, with a touch of raiding) .  I still remember getting my Singing Short Sword in EQ.  Took me NINE MONTHS of hard work, but I loved that sword more than any raid drop I recieved after it.  I soloed some of it, grouped some of it and did a couple of raids.  Nothing too stressful and it allowed me to experience what the game had to offer.  I didn't have to raid the same damn mob night in, night out to get a chance at a piece of loot.  It was very spontanious, exciting and FUN! I would pay double the game cost to get that feeling back.

If The Old Republic is going the way of World of Warcraft as you stated, than I don't see why raiding would be an issue. Rather than going through a dungeon by yourself and killing monsters, you simply hit a button to be grouped up with random strangers, teleport to the dungeon, and fight alongside them while nobody talks or makes eye contact. It's like riding an elevator. 

I'm always amused by the people who freak out that an online game would have aspects that force you to interact with other people, even if it is as minimal as raiding. I'm not sure why you're so worried about getting the highest level armor anyway, because once you hit a point where your weapon/armor can thoroughly trash end-game mobs, which can usually be hit with equipment that can be dropped/crafted/purchased on the auction house, the only point in getting the end game raid gear is to make end game raids easier, which requires a group.

Perhaps it's just because I come from an age where grouping wasn't just necessary for end-game, it was necessary to get past the first zone. 

Oh geeze .. spare us the psycho babble .. ffs

if equal level gear was available, raids would too easy because you would already be geared for them, and there would be no reward because ... you already have the gear.

there are plenty of games for you. MMOs are not them.

Originally posted by Omali

If The Old Republic is going the way of World of Warcraft as you stated, than I don't see why raiding would be an issue. Rather than going through a dungeon by yourself and killing monsters, you simply hit a button to be grouped up with random strangers, teleport to the dungeon, and fight alongside them while nobody talks or makes eye contact. It's like riding an elevator. 

I think this is the saddest thing i ever experienced in an MMO. I hope this never happens to SWTOR.

It's always baffled me that players can complain about WoW (the most solo-friendly MMO in history) has ever "shafted" solo players.

Everything that follows from that premise makes even less sense.

---

Originally posted by Metentso

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Originally posted by Omali
If The Old Republic is going the way of World of Warcraft as you stated, than I don't see why raiding would be an issue. Rather than going through a dungeon by yourself and killing monsters, you simply hit a button to be grouped up with random strangers, teleport to the dungeon, and fight alongside them while nobody talks or makes eye contact. It's like riding an elevator. 

---

I think this is the saddest thing i ever experienced in an MMO. I hope this never happens to SWTOR.

---

while i agree with you I can almost assure you that Bioware .. or at least EA doesn't. Instant gratification is what sells these days.

Originally posted by Omali

Perhaps it's just because I come from an age where grouping wasn't just necessary for end-game, it was necessary to get past the first zone. 

I come from that age too but even all those older MMOs I loved, especially FFXI, have changed and become more solo-based.  And thats unfortunately the way the gaming industry has headed,{post-2004} and while I adamantly disliked it at first, I've learned to adapted to these changes so I could continue to enjoy playing MMOs.

All-the-while though, even though I loved to group heavily in the past, I still preferred the small group method then ~6-man or less~ in both open world mob camping and dungeons.  Its just that with how MMOs are entirely solo based for-the-most-part these days, the end-game shouldn't be entirely group based as the only means to progress...

Originally posted by Binny45

Originally posted by Khrymson

I agree with the OP and everyone else that did too.  There needs to be more options for the solo/small group player to obtain better gear than just the basic lvl 50 quest/dungeon sets.    

The #1 argument that the raiders always bring up, "why do you need raid level gear if you don't raid?" ~ honestly why not, and why do the raiders care so much that we non-raiders have access to it.  Does it make you special because you have more time and patience...no no it doesn't!   If its in the game, then why can't every type of player earn it in one way or another, without being forced into a type of gameplay they dislike.

Why not do something like Rift is attempting and making the high end raids solo/small group possible, with weekly lockouts and similar low drop percentages.  And each week you have the option to do said instance once while in a full raid or once while solo, maybe twice.  Or add some kind of stipulation to the gear, like PvP arena gear in WoW requires you earn a certain rating to buy/use it.  

 

Last I heard, isn't the end-game progression only consistent of like 20% of the total population playing of any given MMO, possibly less.  Also why is every MMO post-2004 entirely designed to be solo and small group based, but as soon as you reach end-game you're suddenly forced to raid in large groups to progress!?  And why is it always gear based, why can't it be horizontal stat-based leveling instead.  {like FFXI and their Merit System...}  It doesn't make sense to just drop the solo/small group gameplay upon reaching the cap if you want the best stuff, especially when the entire MMO is designed around the solo/small group player!

 

 

 

EDIT:  Granted though, I do actually plan to get into operations more than I normally would because of the personal loot containers.  Really my biggest beef with raiding is the DKP BS, the arguing over who gets what, ninjas, and overall the stress leading up to the boss that may or may not drop the piece of gear you want, and will you win the roll!  All that should be gone in SW:TOR, but I will still continue to advocate for this gear to become obtainable by other means because I don't always like to raid!

 

 

There are a lot of raiders who use their gear to measure their accomplishments in life.  Seriously.  There are some that treat MMO's as a game, but there are others that these games become who they are and how they are defined.

Personally, there should always be more than one way to achieve an objective.  I mean, why does it always have to be Gaggle 1 takes on uberMob1 or Gaggle 1 takes on Gaggle 2.  I would find it refreshing if someone in some company somewhere make some game that they were working on able to provide multiple paths to get to a single goal.

As far as raiding goes, I can stand it a little bit, but it's B-O-R-I-N-G-!  And it's tedious and blah blah blah.  I personally have no problem questing for months at a time to get that one sweet item.  I also have no problem mixing the different play styles to achieve said item (solo play here, group play there, with a touch of raiding) .  I still remember getting my Singing Short Sword in EQ.  Took me NINE MONTHS of hard work, but I loved that sword more than any raid drop I recieved after it.  I soloed some of it, grouped some of it and did a couple of raids.  Nothing too stressful and it allowed me to experience what the game had to offer.  I didn't have to raid the same damn mob night in, night out to get a chance at a piece of loot.  It was very spontanious, exciting and FUN! I would pay double the game cost to get that feeling back.

That was an epic weapon in EQ no? I remember camping In Lguk for that guy (raster maybe) for the monk epic. Took me 2 tries for a total of 8 hours. I remember people saying this mob to spawn could take months. Those days are gone my friend. I love original EQ (started just after kunark came out) but that game was brutal by todays standards.

What I'm curious about is what the difference is, camping (killing) something for 9 months, or killing the same raid mobs for......2,3,4,5 up to 9 months is, exactly? If it's simply a time constraint I understand but you just admitted to doing the same thing as a raid would for 9 months. Obviously it's not a boredom thing in EQ?

Honestly I think with the reduced raid sizes/group sizes this game is going to be a lot of fun (imo).

Originally posted by Xerenix

Originally posted by rathalas22

Originally posted by Xerenix

Originally posted by rathalas22

admittedly enough I was hoping for a little bit more than the norm. I was hoping they would stay with the idea of some of the best gear would come from raids, some of the best gear from PVP, and some others from crafting. Not all the best of every type of gear from raids. Now it seems it is more of just, I got the best gear I win game where skill counts for little to nothing. Yes I am still going to play and hope that it isnt as bad as I fear. I just probably wont play too long.

It has already been said that the best PvP gear will come from PvP and the best PvE gear will be from Raid while the crafting will be Raid ready so one step under raid.

Considering the difference between the gear will only be 10%, it can easily be countered by how you play your class and with how you use teamwork.

I suggest you try reading the thread some more :)

  You may need to read a little more as well

It seems i do.

I could have sworn i read it differently :/

EDIT: After reading it again, they never actually say that the PvE gear will be better than the PvP Gear in PvP, just that it will be more specialized with probaly means that it will be better in PvP only.

 You are correct on that, I hope you are right and pvp gear is the best for pvp. So top tier PVP gear is better than top tier PVE gear for PVP purpose.

Originally posted by Khrymson

I agree with the OP and everyone else that did too.  There needs to be more options for the solo/small group player to obtain better gear than just the basic lvl 50 quest/dungeon sets.    

The #1 argument that the raiders always bring up, "why do you need raid level gear if you don't raid?" ~ honestly why not, and why do the raiders care so much that we non-raiders have access to it.  Does it make you special because you have more time and patience...no no it doesn't!   If its in the game, then why can't every type of player earn it in one way or another, without being forced into a type of gameplay they dislike.

Why not do something like Rift is attempting and making the high end raids solo/small group possible, with weekly lockouts and similar low drop percentages.  And each week you have the option to do said instance once while in a full raid or once while solo, maybe twice.  Or add some kind of stipulation to the gear, like PvP arena gear in WoW requires you earn a certain rating to buy/use it.  

 

Last I heard, isn't the end-game progression only consistent of like 20% of the total population playing of any given MMO, possibly less.  Also why is every MMO post-2004 entirely designed to be solo and small group based, but as soon as you reach end-game you're suddenly forced to raid in large groups to progress!?  And why is it always gear based, why can't it be horizontal stat-based leveling instead.  {like FFXI and their Merit System...}  It doesn't make sense to just drop the solo/small group gameplay upon reaching the cap if you want the best stuff, especially when the entire MMO is designed around the solo/small group player!

 

 

 

EDIT:  Granted though, I do actually plan to get into operations more than I normally would because of the personal loot containers.  Really my biggest beef with raiding is the DKP BS, the arguing over who gets what, ninjas, and overall the stress leading up to the boss that may or may not drop the piece of gear you want, and will you win the roll!  All that should be gone in SW:TOR, but I will still continue to advocate for this gear to become obtainable by other means because I don't always like to raid!

 

 

 SO what they have actually said is that the best gear comes from Flashpoints which are the smaller group quests. Heck, you can grab one friend and load up two companions and go. It will be harder to do Flashpoints with companion characters but doable. And for the record, I have checked on this. Companions can be taken on Flashpoints but NOT on Operations or Warzones.

They have also said the Raid gear is at best 10% better than other gear and you can craft that gear as well.

I think it will end up fine.

Originally posted by Gormok

Well in an upcoming patch Rift will be offering solo and small group dungeons for one, in which you can acquire some pretty decent gear. Not the best but also not the worst, as far as GW2 goes you can pretty much join in on the events if you are in the area. The game doesn't go from a fun leveling experience to an all out raid or die endgame, GW2 is more persistant. To be honest I was one of the biggest bashers of GW2, but after hearing the ToR announcements GW2 is looking like the better game, even Rift will be better than ToR after 1.5. After the personal story runs out than what? If you want to do endgame story content, guess what? that's in the operations. The whole solo planet thing is just another way of saying repeatable dailies. I was one of the biggest fanbois of ToR and couldn't nothing negative be said about it, without me coming to the defense. But now it looks like the raiders win out again, BW pretty much feed us bullshit back in 2008 when they said they weren't going after the raiding crowd.

Play GW2 then, problem solved. Problem with people like you is you hang on every word years before the game is out. Follow these games in moderation and I think alot of you would be less disapointed. It certainly doesnt have every single feature I would like in a game either but I think they will do enough to make this game fun. If not, GW2 for me and problem solved.

    Because of where I live AND the hours I tend to keep, teaming tends to be pretty hard on a consistant basis.  So, I tend to solo in MMOs about 60%-70% of the time.  I do like to team, it's just hard sometimes and to be honest, I often like to just crank out a couple mission and then log off.

    With that being said, I have ABSOLUTELY no problem with a game based on group play rewarding people who actually group up.  From everything I have read though, even to stuff you get soloing is not all that much less effective than the stuff you get raiding and pvping, so what is the problem?  If your only going to solo anyways, it isn't like you need all the "Uber Gimmicks" to begin with.

    I guess what I am saying is that, while this will affect me in a negative way, I still think it is the best way for BioWare to be handling things.

The thing I hate the most about WoW is itemization, im talking about the MASSIVE disparity of item 'tiers' and now its "around 10%" from PvP to PvE highend gear in TOR?

In a game like this Items are everything, and 10% is a significant advantage, not even including the tiers below. I guess Its just one more End-Game I'll be avoiding.

What?!?! Another single player game is being released without multi-group raiding? Man, we raiders got it up the bunghole again!

I kid, I kid., but my argument is just as substantial as the OPs.

These game designers are all the same, grind for gear or die, and neither this game nor GW2 will be any different.   I was told many times by people that this game and GW2 would be different and that grinding for gear was not going to be the "game".  But you know what...it is the "game".    They(the game designers), are stuck on one paradigm of design and it'll take hell to freeze over before they ever change.

Originally posted by theratmonkey

Well, if you could solo and get the same gear as people who do raids, then it would seem unfair.

It's not really a new thing to have some of the best gear only accessable via group content. I don't see a way they could do it to where solo players get good gear without it feeling like group and raiders are getting the shaft.

 

Why would raiders be getting the shaft if they felt they were having fun raiding?

And to say "it's not really a new thing" to have a raiding-centered endgame supports the OP's point.

As a human of some what rather reasonable intellect, I would only expect to get the best things out of a game with some sort of challenge behind them. I would think I would also need the help of others to acquire said best things. I have never gone into any game expecting to be able to be the best equipped character in the game by never doing anything that required some level of difficulty and requiring others to help me get it. I can not condone the OP's topic one bit after reading its post.

Originally posted by Teala

These game designers are all the same, grind for gear or die, and neither this game nor GW2 will be any different.   I was told many times by people that this game and GW2 would be different and that grinding for gear was not going to be the "game".  But you know what...it is the "game".    They(the game designers), are stuck on one paradigm of design and it'll take hell to freeze over before they ever change.

Where did you get your info that GW2 is all about gear grinding? Raiding or grinding to get the best gears (stat wise) isn't Anet's philisophy