Originally posted by Gishgeron

 

     You are obviously trolling.  No one I've ever met on this site would lack the ability to apply logic and reason as you have.  Before I report this, in a reach to those who might not yet know otherwise, your statement is very nearly entirely untrue.  I've been dear friends with a large number of people who have, on different levels, engaged RMT.  All of them were self sufficient and held jobs.  Those I've known to spend LARGELY, ( to the level that our extremists around here would proclaim RMT expenditures can be) had incredible jobs and more disposable income that most anyone here could even imagine.  More than I could, certainly.  

Then they are the exception to the rule,  but still losers for cheating in a video game..........cheating in a video game...............cheating in a video game..........cheating in a video game........(echoes into infinity)

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by Gishgeron

Originally posted by Nerf09

Originally posted by Gishgeron

Originally posted by Nerf09

Originally posted by Wiezard

...  

Most likely gaming addicts (like a gambling addict) without the funds to even pay for their own food, and/or on welfare, are those pathetic excuses for human beings who buy gold in video games

     You are obviously trolling.  No one I've ever met on this site would lack the ability to apply logic and reason as you have.  Before I report this, in a reach to those who might not yet know otherwise, your statement is very nearly entirely untrue.  I've been dear friends with a large number of people who have, on different levels, engaged RMT.  All of them were self sufficient and held jobs.  Those I've known to spend LARGELY, ( to the level that our extremists around here would proclaim RMT expenditures can be) had incredible jobs and more disposable income that most anyone here could even imagine.  More than I could, certainly.  

Heheh yeah I agree.  There are plenty of good reasons to hate P2W, Nerf has even touched on some of them.  But most of the stuff that he posts is just flaming.  I just hope that you guys don't think he is representative of the anti P2W crowd.

  Oh, I don't think that at all.  As a matter of fact, I actually rather like, and respect, you and your opinions.  Even if we DID have a small back and forth a week or so ago.  You still applied reason and logic to your opposition, and you weren't outright hateful to anyone else really either.  Heated, perhaps, but not hateful.  Its easy to get heated right now, its a divisive issue.  I can forgive that kind of thing.  Hell, I do it too.   Probably a couple weeks ago, had a warning.  I'm just not as nice as I probably should be.  Eh, what can ya do?

Originally posted by Nerf09

Originally posted by Gishgeron

 

     You are obviously trolling.  No one I've ever met on this site would lack the ability to apply logic and reason as you have.  Before I report this, in a reach to those who might not yet know otherwise, your statement is very nearly entirely untrue.  I've been dear friends with a large number of people who have, on different levels, engaged RMT.  All of them were self sufficient and held jobs.  Those I've known to spend LARGELY, ( to the level that our extremists around here would proclaim RMT expenditures can be) had incredible jobs and more disposable income that most anyone here could even imagine.  More than I could, certainly.  

Then they are the exception to the rule,  but still losers for cheating in a video game.

Eh, I don't think that you can apply "cheating" so liberally to MMORPGs.  PvP sure, if you P2W, you are cheating, no doubt.

But for PvE...what are you cheating against with stuff like exp potions?  The exp bar?

I see it more like paying to fast forward through a boring movie in order to get to the good parts.  Still ridiculous, just not cheating :).

Please cut the personal attacks and baiting otherwise the thread may need to be locked. Thanks.

Originally posted by Gishgeron

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by Gishgeron

Originally posted by Nerf09

Originally posted by Gishgeron

Originally posted by Nerf09

Originally posted by Wiezard

...

     You are obviously trolling.  No one I've ever met on this site would lack the ability to apply logic and reason as you have.  Before I report this, in a reach to those who might not yet know otherwise, your statement is very nearly entirely untrue.  I've been dear friends with a large number of people who have, on different levels, engaged RMT.  All of them were self sufficient and held jobs.  Those I've known to spend LARGELY, ( to the level that our extremists around here would proclaim RMT expenditures can be) had incredible jobs and more disposable income that most anyone here could even imagine.  More than I could, certainly.  

Heheh yeah I agree.  There are plenty of good reasons to hate P2W, Nerf has even touched on some of them.  But most of the stuff that he posts is just flaming.  I just hope that you guys don't think he is representative of the anti P2W crowd.

 

  Oh, I don't think that at all.  As a matter of fact, I actually rather like, and respect, you and your opinions.  Even if we DID have a small back and forth a week or so ago.  You still applied reason and logic to your opposition, and you weren't outright hateful to anyone else really either.  Heated, perhaps, but not hateful.  Its easy to get heated right now, its a divisive issue.  I can forgive that kind of thing.  Hell, I do it too.   Probably a couple weeks ago, had a warning.  I'm just not as nice as I probably should be.  Eh, what can ya do?

Good, we're on the same page.  And yeah, I definitely get carried away in my arguments sometimes, but it's good to know that we both realize that :).  

I respect your opinions and everyone else's that argues rationally as well.  You guys even work to change my opinions sometimes.  I used to be diametrically against any RMT, but now I'm okay with stuff like convenience purchases (more bag slots) or content purchases (new dungeons).

I just draw the line at P2W stuff as you well know :).

Originally posted by Amana

Please cut the personal attacks and baiting otherwise the thread may need to be locked. Thanks.

  DUDE!!!!!!

  AGENT P!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  How both incredibly fitting, AND hardcore as a choice for a moderators avatar.  I don't care how offtopic this reply is, it deserved to be made.

Originally posted by Creslin321

I played D2 and I never even knew there was an underground item market until the D3 annoucement.  Remember, D2 is 11 years old.  The only people still playing it are the ultra-hardcore.  I don't think they are representative of the mainstream consumer that will be playing D2.  In fact, I would wager that the vast majority of D2 players never even knew these illicit transactions existed.  I don't really think that the item market in D2 was something that "everybody did."

And yeah, P2W has existed for some time but it was generally looked down upon by developers.  Buying gold in WoW and most P2P MMORPGs is a bannable offense and for good reason.  Now they are doing a 180 and trying to profit from it.

Also, many people just want to play D3 as a single player game and never log onto BNet.  They used to have the option of using cheats or mods to get items they wanted if they felt like just messing around (or if they liked cheating).  Now you're going to have to pay to cheat, even if you just want to play single player.

The reason that I'm pissed about this whole D3 crap is that P2W used to be isolated ot either F2P games or risky third party sites.  I never had a huge problem with this because it didn't really invade by B2P/P2P world.  Now though, it may be part of the normal B2P/P2P gaming experience.  And I just think that's sad.

I always recognized P2W to basically be a scam, but at least I could stay away from it before.

Fair enough. It was/is a huge deal though. Only now - since there are so few players, bots are all you see. I remember Battle.net when it was revamped for WC3 - so many ads for "paid" services.

As for profiting from gold selling - I don't see Blizzard doing that. If there are other MMO companies that actually encourage gold selling/buying, I'd like to know which they are as I don't know about them.

I see your issue with the D3 more clearly now - It's not the best solution, what Blizz has done, but really, I don't see any others at hand.

As for MMOs in general - I hink the P2W model is a fail one.

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by Gishgeron

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by Gishgeron

Originally posted by Nerf09

Originally posted by Gishgeron

Originally posted by Nerf09

Originally posted by Wiezard

...

     You are obviously trolling.  No one I've ever met on this site would lack the ability to apply logic and reason as you have.  Before I report this, in a reach to those who might not yet know otherwise, your statement is very nearly entirely untrue.  I've been dear friends with a large number of people who have, on different levels, engaged RMT.  All of them were self sufficient and held jobs.  Those I've known to spend LARGELY, ( to the level that our extremists around here would proclaim RMT expenditures can be) had incredible jobs and more disposable income that most anyone here could even imagine.  More than I could, certainly.  

Heheh yeah I agree.  There are plenty of good reasons to hate P2W, Nerf has even touched on some of them.  But most of the stuff that he posts is just flaming.  I just hope that you guys don't think he is representative of the anti P2W crowd.

 

  Oh, I don't think that at all.  As a matter of fact, I actually rather like, and respect, you and your opinions.  Even if we DID have a small back and forth a week or so ago.  You still applied reason and logic to your opposition, and you weren't outright hateful to anyone else really either.  Heated, perhaps, but not hateful.  Its easy to get heated right now, its a divisive issue.  I can forgive that kind of thing.  Hell, I do it too.   Probably a couple weeks ago, had a warning.  I'm just not as nice as I probably should be.  Eh, what can ya do?

Good, we're on the same page.  And yeah, I definitely get carried away in my arguments sometimes, but it's good to know that we both realize that :).  

I respect your opinions and everyone else's that argues rationally as well.  You guys even work to change my opinions sometimes.  I used to be diametrically against any RMT, but now I'm okay with stuff like convenience purchases (more bag slots) or content purchases (new dungeons).

I just draw the line at P2W stuff as you well know :).

  I know, I know.  My stance has moved sideways a bit too.  Whereas I would probably fully support RMT...I do have to admit any form it appears in is going to affect the design and developement meetings from there on out.  It quickly turns board discussions away from quality improvements and into invisible gates to encourage the RMT.  IN F2P MMO games that surfaces, usually, as heavy xp grinds.  In D3...its gonna be drop rates and availability.  The item generator in Diablo games was already...ahh...unkind in some ways for obtaining the best gear.  Its probably going to be even more brutal now, to raise the value of each item and pique the interest for players to at least "look" at the auction house.  Sometimes, just getting a look is enough to land a sale. 

  I may support it on a level...but I won't lie and say I won't also feel that it tarnishes the design direction enough to change the flavor.   I hope I'm wrong...Blizzard would be the company to prove that wrong.  Other studios are new, and need faster money.  Blizzard is long established and probably doesn't NEED to be aggressive with it.  But that little black devil will be there, in the back of every company leaders mind everytime the profit margins are discussed.  These are men paid to make those grow...and they WILL, on some level, apply pressure to advance the RMT some.

Originally posted by Gishgeron

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by Gishgeron

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by Gishgeron

Originally posted by Nerf09

Originally posted by Gishgeron

Originally posted by Nerf09

Originally posted by Wiezard

...

     ...

Good, we're on the same page.  And yeah, I definitely get carried away in my arguments sometimes, but it's good to know that we both realize that :).  

I respect your opinions and everyone else's that argues rationally as well.  You guys even work to change my opinions sometimes.  I used to be diametrically against any RMT, but now I'm okay with stuff like convenience purchases (more bag slots) or content purchases (new dungeons).

I just draw the line at P2W stuff as you well know :).

  I know, I know.  My stance has moved sideways a bit too.  Whereas I would probably fully support RMT...I do have to admit any form it appears in is going to affect the design and developement meetings from there on out.  It quickly turns board discussions away from quality improvements and into invisible gates to encourage the RMT.  IN F2P MMO games that surfaces, usually, as heavy xp grinds.  In D3...its gonna be drop rates and availability.  The item generator in Diablo games was already...ahh...unkind in some ways for obtaining the best gear.  Its probably going to be even more brutal now, to raise the value of each item and pique the interest for players to at least "look" at the auction house.  Sometimes, just getting a look is enough to land a sale. 

  I may support it on a level...but I won't lie and say I won't also feel that it tarnishes the design direction enough to change the flavor.   I hope I'm wrong...Blizzard would be the company to prove that wrong.  Other studios are new, and need faster money.  Blizzard is long established and probably doesn't NEED to be aggressive with it.  But that little black devil will be there, in the back of every company leaders mind everytime the profit margins are discussed.  These are men paid to make those grow...and they WILL, on some level, apply pressure to advance the RMT some.

Wow, I think we are actually coming to a consensus here and I think that we have to thank Nerf09 for that :).  His incessant flaming showed us the err of our ways lol.

I think that we both have valid points.  I have a point that badly implemented RMT can shift the focus of developers from making a quality product that people want to play, to making a product that maximizes RMT revenue.  And you recognize that.

You have a point that RMT can actually be very good.  It allows a developer to sell people only the parts of the game that they want to play and really create their own experience.  It also enables people who wouldn't normally be able to purchase a full game to play by just purchasing a small part of it.  And I definitely recognize this.

I guess in the end, RMT is a neutral force much like a weapon.  It can be used for good or evil.  If developers implement RMT in a way that makes them sacrifice solid game design then I think that's bad and I hope that the consumers realize this.  If on the other hand, a developer implements RMT in a responsible way that generates a lot of revenue while keeping the game design solid and not gouging prices then that's fine, maybe even better than the current model.

Originally posted by Gishgeron

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by Gishgeron

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by Gishgeron

Originally posted by Nerf09

Originally posted by Gishgeron

Originally posted by Nerf09

Originally posted by Wiezard

...

     You are obviously trolling.  No one I've ever met on this site would lack the ability to apply logic and reason as you have.  Before I report this, in a reach to those who might not yet know otherwise, your statement is very nearly entirely untrue.  I've been dear friends with a large number of people who have, on different levels, engaged RMT.  All of them were self sufficient and held jobs.  Those I've known to spend LARGELY, ( to the level that our extremists around here would proclaim RMT expenditures can be) had incredible jobs and more disposable income that most anyone here could even imagine.  More than I could, certainly.  

Heheh yeah I agree.  There are plenty of good reasons to hate P2W, Nerf has even touched on some of them.  But most of the stuff that he posts is just flaming.  I just hope that you guys don't think he is representative of the anti P2W crowd.

 

  Oh, I don't think that at all.  As a matter of fact, I actually rather like, and respect, you and your opinions.  Even if we DID have a small back and forth a week or so ago.  You still applied reason and logic to your opposition, and you weren't outright hateful to anyone else really either.  Heated, perhaps, but not hateful.  Its easy to get heated right now, its a divisive issue.  I can forgive that kind of thing.  Hell, I do it too.   Probably a couple weeks ago, had a warning.  I'm just not as nice as I probably should be.  Eh, what can ya do?

Good, we're on the same page.  And yeah, I definitely get carried away in my arguments sometimes, but it's good to know that we both realize that :).  

I respect your opinions and everyone else's that argues rationally as well.  You guys even work to change my opinions sometimes.  I used to be diametrically against any RMT, but now I'm okay with stuff like convenience purchases (more bag slots) or content purchases (new dungeons).

I just draw the line at P2W stuff as you well know :).

  I know, I know.  My stance has moved sideways a bit too.  Whereas I would probably fully support RMT...I do have to admit any form it appears in is going to affect the design and developement meetings from there on out.  It quickly turns board discussions away from quality improvements and into invisible gates to encourage the RMT.  IN F2P MMO games that surfaces, usually, as heavy xp grinds.  In D3...its gonna be drop rates and availability.  The item generator in Diablo games was already...ahh...unkind in some ways for obtaining the best gear.  Its probably going to be even more brutal now, to raise the value of each item and pique the interest for players to at least "look" at the auction house.  Sometimes, just getting a look is enough to land a sale. 

  I may support it on a level...but I won't lie and say I won't also feel that it tarnishes the design direction enough to change the flavor.   I hope I'm wrong...Blizzard would be the company to prove that wrong.  Other studios are new, and need faster money.  Blizzard is long established and probably doesn't NEED to be aggressive with it.  But that little black devil will be there, in the back of every company leaders mind everytime the profit margins are discussed.  These are men paid to make those grow...and they WILL, on some level, apply pressure to advance the RMT some.

For me, thinking about money inside the game, even 50 cents, ruins the game experience.

It's not about balance, but about thinking about money, versus playing the game and not thinking about money.

Originally posted by Nerf09

Originally posted by ActionMMORPG

My point is that I consider price gouging to be a predatory business techique.  It's bad enough that pay to win has infected the MMORPG genre.  Adding predatory business practices on top of an already questionable business model (selling the ability to win in a game as a revenue stream) is not something I consider to be reputable.

And if it's too expensive, it will do nothing to put a dent into illegal gold buying black market; which was the originally stated and advertised goal was it not.

I'm not sure if I've ever seen that formally stated, but if so I agree.  Game sponsored RMTs cutting down on third party RMTs is one of what I consider to be the validities of having such in a game.

I'm all in favor of revenue for game companies, I hope some day to make a profit on my own.  Also as a small business operator myself, I'm thrilled to see small companies making profits.

Unlike some, I'm not strongly anti-pay to win or anti-free to play.  I like box to play the best.  I think freemium (unlimited trial with optional box to play) is also strong.  I don't find free to play (free access plus cash shop) offensive as long as it's done fairly and with full disclosure.  I just get upset over scams.  Of course what one person perceives as a scam might be seen as just legitimate business to another.

I guess in answer to the title topic, Is Pay to win becoming legitimate?  My feelings are this.

1. If a game can make money with a pay to win business model without ripping off its customer base and without significantly distorting the gameplay*, then more power to them.

2. When a game is clearly predatory by either not disclosing the payment model or by price gouging, then I consider that game is damaging the reputation of the MMORPG industry and should be dealth with accordingly.

* subject to personal perspective.  To some the idea of buying stat gear is blatantly wrong in any form.  To others it's normal MMORPG design.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

 

For me, thinking about money inside the game, even 50 cents, ruins the game experience.

It's not about balance, but about thinking about money, versus playing the game and not thinking about money.

 

  I cannot share that sentiment.  I don't mean ill by this, but to me personally that way of thinking just seems like silliness in allowing your mind to overwhelm reason.  Sort of like lacking willpower.  Its not a reasonable way for my mind to be allowed to operate, so I don't.  I can certainly see why it IS that way for many.  But I've always had a deep need for things to line up...mmm...scientifically inside my head before I could feel okay about holding on to it.  Again, do NOT take that in a derogatory way.  Its really just the different way each person operates.  We each have different mental motivators, and these allow us each to apply our different strengths in positive ways.  Yours is a much more direct mindset, you lay a kind of path and then follow it through.  For you, the path your mind takes for gaming is a diversion and separation from work and stress.  In this scenario, what you feel is not only perfect understandable, but very positive for you.

  I'm more of a tinker, I like to kind of take an issue apart and put it back together and ALL of it has to make a perfect sense to me or I'm not happy.   Before you go thinking that some kind of self-absorbed pat on the back..realize that it means my need to do that ruins a lot of good relaxing options.  It also means I overthink things, and tend to be slow in addressing issues properly that you would otherwise rock me in.  As a result, however, it means that only the business side, (and by this I mean the upper eschelon of Blizzard management or Vinvedi management) is applicable to me to oppose this whole thing.

  Again, there is nothing at all wrong, as I see it, in how you feel.  It just doesn't add up for me, and is refused in my thick little head.

The problem itself is not the F2P model, but the cash shop balance ingame, I agree that if the game is F2P, if you pay more you should obtain more advantages but not  unfair advantages, what distinguishes a good game F2P is among other things a Balanced Cash Shop.

Originally posted by urdriel

The problem itself is not the F2P model, but the cash shop balance ingame, I agree that if the game is F2P, if you pay more you should obtain more advantages but not  unfair advantages, what distinguishes a good game F2P is among other things a Balanced Cash Shop.

You should check out the cash shops in Eudemons or Conquer online.   I have yet to see one as balanced as them, they have it basically setup to control the ingame market.   Rarely anyone buys items on the cash shop due to the players in game selling them for a much lower ingame currency cost then that of the mall itself.     There is two currencies in the game, one that can be obtained for free and another that you gotta pay for.   Obviously the one you gotta pay for is the most valuable and is used for items in the item mall, thus people often only trade using that currency.   It's a player driven market with a cash shop to stop people from over charging items for rediculous amounts.    

Originally posted by urdriel

The problem itself is not the F2P model, but the cash shop balance ingame, I agree that if the game is F2P, if you pay more you should obtain more advantages but not  unfair advantages, what distinguishes a good game F2P is among other things a Balanced Cash Shop.

 While true in theory no such animal exists. If there were no clear advantage to spending money no one would. Moreover the pressure is to make items more and more necessary to play the game over time. Some people just have a high threshold of pain.

People spending real money to buy few pixels in game deserve to be ripped off. Nevermind if you're so rich that you can swim in money or you're just average joe that spends part of his income in game malls, you're laughing stock and I hope you will spend even more money to boost your sorry ego. Losers. Enjoy :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBPYdgy35KA

who do you think pays for the F2P games you enjoy?

Originally posted by Gishgeron

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

 

For me, thinking about money inside the game, even 50 cents, ruins the game experience.

It's not about balance, but about thinking about money, versus playing the game and not thinking about money.

 

 

  I cannot share that sentiment.  I don't mean ill by this, but to me personally that way of thinking just seems like silliness in allowing your mind to overwhelm reason.  Sort of like lacking willpower.  Its not a reasonable way for my mind to be allowed to operate, so I don't.  I can certainly see why it IS that way for many.  But I've always had a deep need for things to line up...mmm...scientifically inside my head before I could feel okay about holding on to it.  Again, do NOT take that in a derogatory way.  Its really just the different way each person operates.  We each have different mental motivators, and these allow us each to apply our different strengths in positive ways.  Yours is a much more direct mindset, you lay a kind of path and then follow it through.  For you, the path your mind takes for gaming is a diversion and separation from work and stress.  In this scenario, what you feel is not only perfect understandable, but very positive for you.

  I'm more of a tinker, I like to kind of take an issue apart and put it back together and ALL of it has to make a perfect sense to me or I'm not happy.   Before you go thinking that some kind of self-absorbed pat on the back..realize that it means my need to do that ruins a lot of good relaxing options.  It also means I overthink things, and tend to be slow in addressing issues properly that you would otherwise rock me in.  As a result, however, it means that only the business side, (and by this I mean the upper eschelon of Blizzard management or Vinvedi management) is applicable to me to oppose this whole thing.

  Again, there is nothing at all wrong, as I see it, in how you feel.  It just doesn't add up for me, and is refused in my thick little head.

I don't think "willpower" is relevant. 

It's more like a preference for chocolate or vanilla.

Neither is dependent on "willpower".

You simply enjoy one more than the other.

I find shopping for items to be extremely annoying.

You enjoy shopping for items.

Vanilla versus chocolate.

Both are good, but you can prefer one over another.

No amount of "willpower" is going to make me enjoy vanilla if I prefer chocolate.

There is no amouth of "willpower" that can make me like shopping for items. I don't like that. Never have, never will.

After all, we're not talking about going on a diet.

We're talking about having fun.

Fun doesn't have anything to do with willpower.

Either it's fun, or it's not.

Generally "willpower" is required to do something that is not fun.

Why would you play a game if you don't enjoy it?

Makes no sense.

The whole issue boils down to why you play the games in the first place.

Do you play to win?  Or do you play to play?

If you enjoy playing the game, then it shouldn't make much of a difference to you if Joe Wallet finishes all the content ahead of you, because you'll eventually get there if you care enough.  OTOH, if you enjoy winning.... be it in PvP, or in beating the content first, or whatever... then microtransactions destroy the game for the poor.  Like the real world, money replaces talent, and no matter how good you are, you can't compete with folks who buy their way to the top.

Originally posted by Nerf09

Originally posted by Cyberdeck7

 

Please tell me the difference? You work because you have to. You play games for entertainment.

A game is structured playing, usually undertaken for enjoyment and sometimes used as an educational tool. Games are distinct from work, which is usually carried out for remuneration, and from art, which is more often an expression of aesthetic or ideological elements.

Key components of games are goals, rules, challenge, and interaction. Games generally involve mental or physical stimulation, and often both. Many games help develop practical skills, serve as a form ofexercise, or otherwise perform an educational, simulational, or psychological role.

 

• fun: the activity is chosen for its light-hearted character
• separate: it is circumscribed in time and place
• uncertain: the outcome of the activity is unforeseeable
• non-productive: participation does not accomplish anything useful
• governed by rules: the activity has rules that are different from everyday life
• fictitious: it is accompanied by the awareness of a different reality

Rules:

Whereas games are often characterized by their tools, they are often defined by their rules. While rules are subject to variations and changes, enough change in the rules usually results in a "new" game. For instance, baseball can be played with "real" baseballs or with wiffleballs. However, if the players decide to play with only three bases, they are arguably playing a different game. There are exceptions to this in that some games deliberately involve the changing of their own rules, but even then there are often immutable meta-rules.

Rules generally determine turn order, the rights and responsibilities of the players, and each player’s goals. Player rights may include when they may spend resources or move tokens. Common win conditions are being first to amass a certain quota of points or tokens (as in Settlers of Catan), having the greatest number of tokens at the end of the game (as in Monopoly), or some relationship of one’s game tokens to those of one’s opponent (as in chess's checkmate).

A job is ordinary direct, or "full-time", employment in which a free worker sells his or her labour for an indeterminate time (from a few years to the entire career of the worker), in return for a money-wage or salary and a continuing relationship with the employer which it does not in general offer contractors or other irregular staff

"Hi I'm a middle aged overweight banker, I fail at baseball.  If only I could pay $20 to the umpire get a homerun, I don't have all this time to grind practice baseball I have a real job." 

 

Who would want to watch that game?  More then once.

"Hey this is a Capitalist society, those who run the basebal stadium have bills to pay, the more fat bankers who fail at baseball the better."

Hi, I'm on the same side as this guy but I didn't read anything at all, I just came in and started flaming away.