Well first off let me say; I don't normally agree with a lot of the ToR bashers on these forums, but in this regard to WoW clone and BW not changing things up. It looks like the trolls and ToR bashers where right, BW are following in the exact same footsteps as WoW and Rift. Basically if you want good gear in ToR it's raid or pvp,even crafting good gear means you have to raid for the mats. So it looks like the solo players gets it up the rear once again, you only have two options in which to progress your character at endgame. PvP or raid, I like raiding and I like pvp but I don't like for that to be the only option as far as progression goes. I have been doing that same old song and dance for the last ten years and quiet frankly it loses it's appeal very quickly, the whole solo planet thing is probably nothing but a daily quest grind as is seen in WoW and Rift. Well it looks like ToR might be off the table for me, seeing as to how I am pretty much tired and burnt out on the whole raid and pvp gear grind. Here are some links and quotes for those that are interested.

http://darthhater.com/2011/08/28/pax...on-live-blogs/

http://darthhater.com/2011/08/28/pax...eet-live-blog/

11:14a - Q: Can moddable armor compete with Operations gear? JO: Only if you get mods or materials from operations. Crafters can build Operation-level gear with operations mats. Can't avoid Operations if you want endgame gear.

8:52p - Q: How are we tracking things to balance crafting, raiding, different playstyles?
8:52p - A: We have a lot of analytics to track things like this. Lots of dashboards we look at. Lots of internal metrics. We don't want tons of nerfing going on. Though that does happen in MMOs because they are rebalancing as an MMO grows over time.

8:53p - JO: The best gear in the game is going to come from the PvE Operations. So if you want to have the best gear in the game, you have to do Operations. You can also get gear that is nearly as good, but more specialized, from the PvP game. Those are our two highest stat gear and they're also the gear that we've reserved some of the best appearances for.

8:54p - DE: The tier right under that, that you're going to need to go get into that Operation, you're going to come see me (the crafter).

8:54p - GA: There are several different slots, and there are some slots that remain specific for the crafters to help with the best PvE and PvP gear. The difference between the PvP and PvE gear is around 10%. And crafting can help support that in a couple of the slots. And we're trying around in testing just to figure out specifically what slots those are.

8:54p - JO: And one thing to mention is the moddable gear. The thing about moddable gear is you can mod it with mods that are at the highest level. So you can, for example, take 10th level Jedi Knight robes that look like what Obi Wan was wearing on Tatooine. Which doesn't look so hot. But once you put all the mods in it, it will actually be as strong as some gear that you've got from Operations. However, to get those mods, you have to do Operations. So it comes back to, if you want to have the best gear, you have to do the high level Operation content.

Well, if you could solo and get the same gear as people who do raids, then it would seem unfair.

It's not really a new thing to have some of the best gear only accessable via group content. I don't see a way they could do it to where solo players get good gear without it feeling like group and raiders are getting the shaft.

I really never get people that want to play an MMO and cry when all the best content is group content...

The WHOLE point of an MMO is a massivle cooperetive game in which you go trough content with your friends.

If you want single player there are enough RPG's with great replay value out there, why go into an MMO if you only want to solo stuff?

There is no reason in the world to reward solo play in an MMO, infact the majority of the community, especially the hard-corde MMO players loath the fact that in WoW these days you are basically can get epics for doing nothing, and to insta que even trough allot of the raids. I've quit wow(for like the 5th and last time) just after Cata launched and when i've seen the 4.2 trailers that actually praised the new raid instance as a PUG friendly one i laughed so hard. I remeber the days when in vanila going to MC took a huge effort from the entire gear, heck gearing up a main tank with craftable gear and drops too weeks, farming fire resist potions, and consumable took a ture guild effort, and in most cases gear didnt matter, you could've went into MC with blues and greens and still made a diffrence, these days its all about the gear and instaque and 2 hour instance cleanings.

I really hope that TOR brings the good old weekly raid schedule back, even tho i dont nearly have as much time as i had 6 allmost 7 years ago....

If games like GW2 and Rift can offer solo and small group content why can't other devs? I have quiet frankly gotten tired of dealing with [ mod edit] guilds and pugs alike. I play MMOs for the atomsphere, the living breathing world knowing that there are other people around to interact with if I so choose. Try playing a MMO with a dead server or no players on it, than you'll see how boring it can be. MMOs should offer multiple paths to progression not just cater to one or two playstyles, hell it's not just solo/small groups getting [mod edit] it's also the crafter that prefer that as a form of endgame.

Originally posted by Gormok

If games like GW2 and Rift can offer solo and small group content why can't other devs? I have quiet frankly gotten tired of dealing with [ mod edit] guilds and pugs alike. I play MMOs for the atomsphere, the living breathing world knowing that there are other people around to interact with if I so choose. Try playing a MMO with a dead server or no players on it, than you'll see how boring it can be. MMOs should offer multiple paths to progression not just cater to one or two playstyles, hell it's not just solo/small groups getting [mod edit] it's also the crafter that prefer that as a form of endgame.

What solo content Rift and GW2 offer that SWTOR do not? considering there is one whole planet dedicated to solo play, then there are quests, crafting, exploration, your own personal storyline, titles, achievements? what specific content you are talking about when you give examples of GW2 and Rift?

It was pretty obvious all along they were emulating the standard end game raiding structure of the modern theme park MMO, it would have been a real surprise for them to say differently.

I had hoped for better, but seeing what you posted here pretty much puts all doubt to rest and my interest in this title just dropped a few more bars.

Glad I didn't pre-order, looking more and more like the sort of titles I try to avoid these days.

You need to remember that gear in GW2 is not gonna be like gear in SW:ToR or WoW or Rift. GW2; like GW before it, will not be stat based for progression. Progression in GW2 will be based on NM/HM complettion and titles.  And the NM/HM progression will not be soloable. It'll take a team of at least 5 to complete.

I dont understand. The stats on pvp and operations gear is high so that you can be competitive in both. But if youre not going to do either of those types of content, why do you need the gear used to compete in it? Besides, the crafted gear is just one level below the operations gear, which is on par with flashpoint gear. Both of which are powerful enough to easily explore without fear of being stomped on by anything out in the world.

Originally posted by Kyleran

It was pretty obvious all along they were emulating the standard end game raiding structure of the modern theme park MMO, it would have been a real surprise for them to say differently.

I had hoped for better, but seeing what you posted here pretty much puts all doubt to rest and my interest in this title just dropped a few more bars.

Glad I didn't pre-order, looking more and more like the sort of titles I try to avoid these days.

It is clearly mentioned in the original post that the difference between PVP gear and PVE gear is 10%. So make up your mind what kind players you are, PVE or PVP, and then go for the gear. If you are both get both sets. No one is forced to grind dungeons and no one is forced to do PVP. There is a choice and if both doesn't inteerst you then there is crafting. Which is the 3rd best gear in SWTOR. it will let you explore, quest obviously you won't be able to do dungeons with that.

Well in an upcoming patch Rift will be offering solo and small group dungeons for one, in which you can acquire some pretty decent gear. Not the best but also not the worst, as far as GW2 goes you can pretty much join in on the events if you are in the area. The game doesn't go from a fun leveling experience to an all out raid or die endgame, GW2 is more persistant. To be honest I was one of the biggest bashers of GW2, but after hearing the ToR announcements GW2 is looking like the better game, even Rift will be better than ToR after 1.5. After the personal story runs out than what? If you want to do endgame story content, guess what? that's in the operations. The whole solo planet thing is just another way of saying repeatable dailies. I was one of the biggest fanbois of ToR and couldn't nothing negative be said about it, without me coming to the defense. But now it looks like the raiders win out again, BW pretty much feed us bullshit back in 2008 when they said they weren't going after the raiding crowd.

Originally posted by galphar

You need to remember that gear in GW2 is not gonna be like gear in SW:ToR or WoW or Rift. GW2; like GW before it, will not be stat based for progression. Progression in GW2 will be based on NM/HM complettion and titles.  And the NM/HM progression will not be soloable. It'll take a team of at least 5 to complete.

Groups of 5 is what I would consider a small group which is acceptable to me, and the events where you just join up with a massive group of people just by being in the area appeals to me more. More akin to like those videos that where shown where people were killing the big dragon.

Originally posted by Gormok

Well in an upcoming patch Rift will be offering solo and small group dungeons for one, in which you can acquire some pretty decent gear. Not the best but also not the worst, as far as GW2 goes you can pretty much join in on the events if you are in the area. The game doesn't go from a fun leveling experience to an all out raid or die endgame, GW2 is more persistant. To be honest I was one of the biggest bashers of GW2, but after hearing the ToR announcements GW2 is looking like the better game, even Rift will be better than ToR after 1.5. After the personal story runs out than what? If you want to do endgame story content, guess what? that's in the operations. The whole solo planet thing is just another way of saying repeatable dailies. I was one of the biggest fanbois of ToR and couldn't nothing negative be said about it, without me coming to the defense. But now it looks like the raiders win out again, BW pretty much feed us bullshit back in 2008 when they said they weren't going after the raiding crowd.

Did you not read where i said one whole planet is for solo players? the personal storyline which lets you hit lvl cap, crafting, exploration, titles and achievements you are telling me all this is not enough solo content? what else were you expecting from MMORPG? Rift is encouraging more solo play? good for them but i don't think it is a very good idea considering Rift is already quite a solo friendly game. The only places you need to group in Rift is in dungeons, PVP and DE's however even some of the DE's can be soloed as they scale to your levels if alone.

And GW2 is more team dependent than you can imagine. The only difference is that they took out gear stats otherwise GW2 is a very social and group oriented game. MMORPG needs less solo and more group content, otherwise they are no different than single player RPGS.

What i find funny is that you are complaining that SWTOR is not solo friendly enough and comparing it to GW2 which is going to be very group oriented.

love the part that says u need to raid to get raid lvl crafting gear. i read some response on here in the last few days that said crafters will be on par with raids and his answer seemed set in stone as if the was 100%.

[Mod Edit]

Originally posted by Wiezard

Originally posted by Gormok

Well in an upcoming patch Rift will be offering solo and small group dungeons for one, in which you can acquire some pretty decent gear. Not the best but also not the worst, as far as GW2 goes you can pretty much join in on the events if you are in the area. The game doesn't go from a fun leveling experience to an all out raid or die endgame, GW2 is more persistant. To be honest I was one of the biggest bashers of GW2, but after hearing the ToR announcements GW2 is looking like the better game, even Rift will be better than ToR after 1.5. After the personal story runs out than what? If you want to do endgame story content, guess what? that's in the operations. The whole solo planet thing is just another way of saying repeatable dailies. I was one of the biggest fanbois of ToR and couldn't nothing negative be said about it, without me coming to the defense. But now it looks like the raiders win out again, BW pretty much feed us bullshit back in 2008 when they said they weren't going after the raiding crowd.

Did you not read where i said one whole planet is for solo players? the personal storyline which lets you hit lvl cap, crafting, exploration, titles and achievements you are telling me all this is not enough solo content? what else were you expecting from MMORPG? Rift is encouraging more solo play? good for them but i don't think it is a very good idea considering Rift is already quite a solo friendly game. The only places you need to group in Rift is in dungeons, PVP and DE's however even some of the DE's can be soloed as they scale to your levels if alone.

 

And GW2 is more team dependent than you can imagine. The only difference is that they took out gear stats otherwise GW2 is a very social and group oriented game. MMORPG needs less solo and more group content, otherwise they are no different than single player RPGS.

 

What i find funny is that you are complaining that SWTOR is not solo friendly enough and comparing it to GW2 which is going to be very group oriented.

From the videos I have seen of GW2, you can start the events on your own and they scale to the number of people that join. MMOs should not cater to just 1 playstyle, me, my wife, and daughter play MMOs together, but you are saying that our style of play shouldn't be encouraged. If that is the case, than I shouldn't have to relie on a bunch of strangers that I don't even know, to get anything done.

Originally posted by Sourd420

love the part that says u need to raid to get raid lvl crafting gear. i read some fanboi response on here in the last few days that said crafters will be on par with raids and his answer seemed set in stone as if the fanboi was 100%.

I hardly doubt anyone would make a claim like that since there was no official information. 90% of people here talk on basis of assumptions and speculaitons. Fanboys or hater both are guilty for trying to pass their opinions as facts. But it was known fact that difference between PVP and PVE gear is of 10% and now crafting gear is third best gear in game.

Good enough for me since i don't raid so why would i need raiding gear in first place? i am happy with PVP and crafting gears as an option.

Originally posted by Sourd420

love the part that says u need to raid to get raid lvl crafting gear. i read some fanboi response on here in the last few days that said crafters will be on par with raids and his answer seemed set in stone as if the fanboi was 100%.

I was one of those fanbois that swore up and down for ToR, BW actually did say that crafters would be able to craft gear on par with raid gear, without having to set foot in a raid. Oh but how they quickly went back on that, makes me wonder what else they are going to backslide on.

Originally posted by DOGMA1138

I really never get people that want to play an MMO and cry when all the best content is group content...

The WHOLE point of an MMO is a massivle cooperetive game in which you go trough content with your friends.

If you want single player there are enough RPG's with great replay value out there, why go into an MMO if you only want to solo stuff?

There is no reason in the world to reward solo play in an MMO, infact the majority of the community, especially the hard-corde MMO players loath the fact that in WoW these days you are basically can get epics for doing nothing, and to insta que even trough allot of the raids. I've quit wow(for like the 5th and last time) just after Cata launched and when i've seen the 4.2 trailers that actually praised the new raid instance as a PUG friendly one i laughed so hard. I remeber the days when in vanila going to MC took a huge effort from the entire gear, heck gearing up a main tank with craftable gear and drops too weeks, farming fire resist potions, and consumable took a ture guild effort, and in most cases gear didnt matter, you could've went into MC with blues and greens and still made a diffrence, these days its all about the gear and instaque and 2 hour instance cleanings.

I really hope that TOR brings the good old weekly raid schedule back, even tho i dont nearly have as much time as i had 6 allmost 7 years ago....

       I'm nearly positive this whole post is trolling.  I really cannot imagine a scenario wherein someone could actually think TOR will be anyway similar to the old school hardmode raiding.  IN fact...WoW NEVER HAD IT EITHER.  I've been there, done that...and WoW's raiding was always still pretty easy compared to where raiding got its roots.  Bottom line is...you cannot approach the game design in the way you think you can.  Group content only works as an exclusive deal in an imaginary world where players are always on waiting for you to do it with them.  The reality is, old school raiding styles were inherently BAD.  IF you got enough players, IF they could all play as long as you needed, IF anything even dropped, IF you won...THEN you MIGHT have been able to enjoy your investment.  Otherwise you spent a month trying to play a game instead of actually playing a game.  Bad game design doesn't come any more obvious than that.  Its one of the most critical reasons the Guild Wars series went to lengths to provide alternative options for grouping, and why WoW added cross-server queues and PUG friendly raids. 

      People can PLAY that game anytime they log on.  Everquest was not that way.  I remember logging on nearly every day for a week and doing nothing more than shouting in chat LFG.  As much as I love group content, I'd rather see it all die than see anything resembling the older style of it to return.

Originally posted by Gormok

Originally posted by Wiezard

Originally posted by Gormok

Well in an upcoming patch Rift will be offering solo and small group dungeons for one, in which you can acquire some pretty decent gear. Not the best but also not the worst, as far as GW2 goes you can pretty much join in on the events if you are in the area. The game doesn't go from a fun leveling experience to an all out raid or die endgame, GW2 is more persistant. To be honest I was one of the biggest bashers of GW2, but after hearing the ToR announcements GW2 is looking like the better game, even Rift will be better than ToR after 1.5. After the personal story runs out than what? If you want to do endgame story content, guess what? that's in the operations. The whole solo planet thing is just another way of saying repeatable dailies. I was one of the biggest fanbois of ToR and couldn't nothing negative be said about it, without me coming to the defense. But now it looks like the raiders win out again, BW pretty much feed us bullshit back in 2008 when they said they weren't going after the raiding crowd.

Did you not read where i said one whole planet is for solo players? the personal storyline which lets you hit lvl cap, crafting, exploration, titles and achievements you are telling me all this is not enough solo content? what else were you expecting from MMORPG? Rift is encouraging more solo play? good for them but i don't think it is a very good idea considering Rift is already quite a solo friendly game. The only places you need to group in Rift is in dungeons, PVP and DE's however even some of the DE's can be soloed as they scale to your levels if alone.

 

And GW2 is more team dependent than you can imagine. The only difference is that they took out gear stats otherwise GW2 is a very social and group oriented game. MMORPG needs less solo and more group content, otherwise they are no different than single player RPGS.

 

What i find funny is that you are complaining that SWTOR is not solo friendly enough and comparing it to GW2 which is going to be very group oriented.

From the videos I have seen of GW2, you can start the events on your own and they scale to the number of people that join. MMOs should not cater to just 1 playstyle, me, my wife, and daughter play MMOs together, but you are saying that our style of play shouldn't be encouraged. If that is the case, than I shouldn't have to relie on a bunch of strangers that I don't even know, to get anything done.

Once again you are not reading so i will make a list for stuff you can solo...

1.) Personal storyline

2;) World quests

3.) Crafting

4.) Exploration

5.) Titles and achievements

on top of that one whole planet dedicated to solo players. So what you are left with to group for? dungeons, PVP, heroic quests and some bonus quests.

Are you still going to tell me with a straight face your style of play is not encouraged? or you were hoping for soloing dungeons too? can you give me an example of soloable dungeons in GW2 at end game? even the best experince in DE comes from large scale groups.

---

Originally posted by Gormok

---

Originally posted by Sourd420
love the part that says u need to raid to get raid lvl crafting gear. i read some fanboi response on here in the last few days that said crafters will be on par with raids and his answer seemed set in stone as if the fanboi was 100%.

---

I was one of those fanbois that swore up and down for ToR, BW actually did say that crafters would be able to craft gear on par with raid gear, without having to set foot in a raid. Oh but how they quickly went back on that, makes me wonder what else they are going to backslide on.

---

Link to where they said that.

Buys MMO, pays sub, plays like single player game. you cant explain that...... seriously you cant, it is not a meme