Originally posted by LisXia

Originally posted by Mardukk

So, I was defending this game earlier today.  But NO Penalty is hilarious and freaking lame.  Even though I have RL friends playing this, my excitement is waning by the announcement (didn't know this before this post even though others knew this in june).  I'm trying understand how they thought this was a good idea??  They are clearly trying to out easy WoW.  This game is making WoW look like MO or Darkfall hahaha.

Afraid to lose even one paying customer at the expense of making the game mildly thrilling....

If you are so brave, you can impose your own death penalty.

If you are braver than brave, you can delete your own toon every time you die.

There is no need for any penalty, you can have as much penalty as you can bear by imposing them yourself.

 That's because the real issue at hand isn't about penalizing mistakes as these hardcores claim, it's about dictating how others play and the desire to force them to play their way and weed out the ones who can't handle it ( read:  power trip).

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

 

Heh, 3 minutes? Okay, to me that's a quick trip to the kitchen for drink refill or an impromptu bio-break. I don't really consider that a punishment...err...that dev may be watching so I'll play along...ahem..."corrective treatment".

In my personal view if you are going to define "corrective treatment" in terms of time, you have to ask yourself is the amount of time spent going to deter or cause a reevaluation of the behavior that generated it by the player?

3 minutes? I'm guessing a big "no" on that one.

Next time it's 6 minutes, next 12, so on and so forth. It's really the same concept mario is built on. You die too much you lose the progress you've made on that level, (well in this case dungeon). It simply costs you time, games have been doing this for ages.

I sorta agree with the mario comparison except that, as of yet, I haven't seen anything that equates to a "starting the level completely over" as mario does when you use up all your lives.

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

...

Heh, 3 minutes? Okay, to me that's a quick trip to the kitchen for drink refill or an impromptu bio-break. I don't really consider that a punishment...err...that dev may be watching so I'll play along...ahem..."corrective treatment".

In my personal view if you are going to define "corrective treatment" in terms of time, you have to ask yourself is the amount of time spent going to deter or cause a reevaluation of the behavior that generated it by the player?

3 minutes? I'm guessing a big "no" on that one.

I hate to sound mockery, I hope you do not see it that way.

If you think harsher punishment will up your enjoyment of that game, you can impose that on yourself.  You can force yourself to log out for an hour or swap to an alt after every death.

You do not need everyone else playing this game to suffer the same punishment, if all you want is to up your own enjoyment.  Of course, if you are in a team you need your team to agree with your view of additional self-imposed penalty.

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

Originally posted by Distopia

 

The problem is the former doesn't work well with the time spent =gear foundation TOR and other themeparks are built around. Why make someone run all that content to get the +1 sword of badassery, only to take it away from them two paces down the block?

I'd say it doesn't work well...yet. I think a way I have in mind that is akin to a type of "insurance" that isn't immediate gratification but over time allows the person to get that item back would work.

Maybe but I think devs just shy away from running their customers off, I can't imagine many being happy with such a scenario, not with how gear centric players have become. Eventually they'd get sick of chasing the same carrot over and over again. If they spend weeks chasing it, to have it taken away just weeks later, how many times are they going to repeat this chain of events?

That line of thinking works in certain MMO's because an individual piece of gear is meaningless and easily replaceable.

Originally posted by LisXia

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

...

Heh, 3 minutes? Okay, to me that's a quick trip to the kitchen for drink refill or an impromptu bio-break. I don't really consider that a punishment...err...that dev may be watching so I'll play along...ahem..."corrective treatment".

In my personal view if you are going to define "corrective treatment" in terms of time, you have to ask yourself is the amount of time spent going to deter or cause a reevaluation of the behavior that generated it by the player?

3 minutes? I'm guessing a big "no" on that one.

I hate to sound mockery, I hope you do not see it that way.

If you think harsher punishment will up your enjoyment of that game, you can impose that on yourself.  You can force yourself to log out for an hour or swap to an alt after every death.

You do not need everyone else playing this game to suffer the same punishment, if all you want is to up your own enjoyment.  Of course, if you are in a team you need your team to agree with your view of additional self-imposed penalty.

Thank you for your suggestion. It does nothing for me but thank you all the same.

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

 

Heh, 3 minutes? Okay, to me that's a quick trip to the kitchen for drink refill or an impromptu bio-break. I don't really consider that a punishment...err...that dev may be watching so I'll play along...ahem..."corrective treatment".

In my personal view if you are going to define "corrective treatment" in terms of time, you have to ask yourself is the amount of time spent going to deter or cause a reevaluation of the behavior that generated it by the player?

3 minutes? I'm guessing a big "no" on that one.

Next time it's 6 minutes, next 12, so on and so forth. It's really the same concept mario is built on. You die too much you lose the progress you've made on that level, (well in this case dungeon). It simply costs you time, games have been doing this for ages.

I sorta agree with the mario comparison except that, as of yet, I haven't seen anything that equates to a "starting the level completely over" as mario does when you use up all your lives.

A bit sidetracking, but the EQ1 type of corpse run is a total start over.  Worse.

You die in an instance, you are nake and your team is scattered throughout the world.  Each of you in your own bind spot

You each run to your bank to regear, make way to the dungeon entrance and announce team XX returned to recover camp spot.  Hope no one take that camp, then the whole team start clearing back to the camp to reloot your corpses and recover XP.

If the wipe is deep in a plane, good luck.

Even the vet EQ1 players were so disheartened that SoE introduce coffin and corpse summoning by necros and later SKs.

In console games, we use to have limited lives, say 6. After 6 dying, you have to start from the beginning again, that was how PS2 games goes usually.  I stopped playing console games after PS2.

What if your enjoyment depends on grouping with people that know how to play their class well in a group? Is that accomplished when anyone can fail all the way to endgame? Minimal penalty or no penalty at all is fine if you never have to depend on another player.

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

 

Heh, 3 minutes? Okay, to me that's a quick trip to the kitchen for drink refill or an impromptu bio-break. I don't really consider that a punishment...err...that dev may be watching so I'll play along...ahem..."corrective treatment".

In my personal view if you are going to define "corrective treatment" in terms of time, you have to ask yourself is the amount of time spent going to deter or cause a reevaluation of the behavior that generated it by the player?

3 minutes? I'm guessing a big "no" on that one.

Next time it's 6 minutes, next 12, so on and so forth. It's really the same concept mario is built on. You die too much you lose the progress you've made on that level, (well in this case dungeon). It simply costs you time, games have been doing this for ages.

I sorta agree with the mario comparison except that, as of yet, I haven't seen anything that equates to a "starting the level completely over" as mario does when you use up all your lives.

Well older MMO's had something in place for that, level/xp loss. They've obviously moved away from that though. In the case of TOR and others it just seems they feel making you restart your progress of content, as good enough of a deterrent to dieing. I can see where some would disagree, but then I could also see where some may agree.

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

Originally posted by Distopia

 

The problem is the former doesn't work well with the time spent =gear foundation TOR and other themeparks are built around. Why make someone run all that content to get the +1 sword of badassery, only to take it away from them two paces down the block?

I'd say it doesn't work well...yet. I think a way I have in mind that is akin to a type of "insurance" that isn't immediate gratification but over time allows the person to get that item back would work.

Maybe but I think devs just shy away from running their customers off, I can't imagine many being happy with such a scenario, not with how gear centric players have become. Eventually they'd get sick of chasing the same carrot over and over again. If they spend weeks chasing it, to have it taken away just weeks later, how many times are they going to repeat this chain of events?

That line of thinking works in certain MMO's because an indivudual piece of gear is meaningless and easily replaceable.

I'd argue that it'd be just fine, considering they exhibit that exact type of behavior right now with grinding quests and grinding raids. Look at how many times people run raids in WoW just to get an item set, piece by piece.

Now, my idea wouldn't require "weeks". I'm not sure where that came from. It would, however take about an hour or so. I'd expect you have questions or concerns with that last statement but as this thread is not the place to go into my idea I accept any skepticism. I will back it up with that such corrective treatment wouldn't/shouldn't stop a player from playing the game. It may halt that given activity within the game. The game itself should be ripe with other just as fun, deep activities as well.

A game built on the premise of one activity being where the "fun is at" is, in my view, a very poorly designed game.

Basically it works like this.

First time you die, you lose some durability points, not the max durabliity, just like say it goes from 100% to 90%. You are also defeated so fighting stops, now you can call a probe and one will come right away to bring you back up a little bit in each area, some force points (mana) some health points, not enough to kill off the already topped off mob but enough that the system registers you as alive and puts on a short duration invis to let you limp away from the fight.  You can then use your quick med to get back up and fight again.

If you die again, you take another hit to your equipment and now the probe has a timer on it. you rez yourself and limp away to med up again.

If you die again, you take another hit to your equipment and now the probe has an even longer time on it.

I think the probe timer can go up to i think it was nearly 20 mins of just sitting there. At that point with all the armor durability loss and now the long probe timer before you can get up again, it's simply better to call it and say i need to think up a new strat cause the one i'm using isn't working. Call back to med bay, repair your gear and give it another shot.

Because frankly if you couldn't beat the encounter with good armor your not going to beat it with bad armor.  Thus the continues secnario sometimes in your current stat your better off just stopping a bit, repairing your armor and rethinking your tactics.  They said they'd rather make the encounter hard and expect you to die a couple of times rather then simply just impose a long death penality and make people have to work back up to where they were.

Wether the game is hard or not is difficult to say without me having played it, but i'd say i'd prefer a hard game with a really light death penality then a game with harsh death penality that just tries to cover up a medium dificulty game.

In short, each death makes your armor worse, makes the time you can jump back in the fight longer, and eventually breaks the armor where you need to go repair it. Thus forcing you to redo the encounter. ala you failed.

Wether one thinks thats a harsh death penallity is up to them, but i'll wait on my judgement on that when i've seen how hard the game is and decide if the death penality is fit for this type of game.

Originally posted by LisXia

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

 

Heh, 3 minutes? Okay, to me that's a quick trip to the kitchen for drink refill or an impromptu bio-break. I don't really consider that a punishment...err...that dev may be watching so I'll play along...ahem..."corrective treatment".

In my personal view if you are going to define "corrective treatment" in terms of time, you have to ask yourself is the amount of time spent going to deter or cause a reevaluation of the behavior that generated it by the player?

3 minutes? I'm guessing a big "no" on that one.

Next time it's 6 minutes, next 12, so on and so forth. It's really the same concept mario is built on. You die too much you lose the progress you've made on that level, (well in this case dungeon). It simply costs you time, games have been doing this for ages.

I sorta agree with the mario comparison except that, as of yet, I haven't seen anything that equates to a "starting the level completely over" as mario does when you use up all your lives.

A bit sidetracking, but the EQ1 type of corpse run is a total start over.  Worse.

You die in an instance, you are nake and your team is scattered throughout the world.  Each of you in your own bind spot

You each run to your bank to regear, make way to the dungeon entrance and announce team XX returned to recover camp spot.  Hope no one take that camp, then the whole team start clearing back to the camp to reloot your corpses and recover XP.

If the wipe is deep in a plane, good luck.

Even the vet EQ1 players were so disheartened that SoE introduce coffin and corpse summoning by necros and later SKs.

In console games, we use to have limited lives, say 6. After 6 dying, you have to start from the beginning again, that was how PS2 games goes usually.  I stopped playing console games after PS2.

I was speaking specifically about TOR. I'm very versed on the EQ1 corpse run. As well as the Asheron's Call corpse run. I've been there and gotten t-shirts from both. And loved every minute of it.

Originally posted by whilan

Basically it works like this.

First time you die, you lose some durability points, not the max durabliity, just like say it goes from 100% to 90%. You are also defeated so fighting stops, now you can call a probe and one will come right away to bring you back up a little bit in each area, some force points (mana) some health points, not enough to kill off the already topped off mob but enough that the system registers you as alive and puts on a short duration invis to let you limp away from the fight.  You can then use your quick med to get back up and fight again.

If you die again, you take another hit to your equipment and now the probe has a timer on it. you rez yourself and limp away to med up again.

If you die again, you take another hit to your equipment and now the probe has an even longer time on it.

I think the probe timer can go up to i think it was nearly 20 mins of just sitting there. At that point with all the armor durability loss and now the long probe timer before you can get up again, it's simply better to call it and say i need to think up a new strat cause the one i'm using isn't working. Call back to med bay, repair your gear and give it another shot.

Because frankly if you couldn't beat the encounter with good armor your not going to beat it with bad armor.  Thus the continues secnario sometimes in your current stat your better off just stopping a bit, repairing your armor and rethinking your tactics.  They said they'd rather make the encounter hard and expect you to die a couple of times rather then simply just impose a long death penality and make people have to work back up to where they were.

Wether the game is hard or not is difficult to say without me having played it, but i'd say i'd prefer a hard game with a really light death penality then a game with harsh death penality that just tries to cover up a medium dificulty game.

In short, each death makes your armor worse, makes the time you can jump back in the fight longer, and eventually breaks the armor where you need to go repair it. Thus forcing you to redo the encounter. ala you failed.

Wether one thinks thats a harsh death penallity is up to them, but i'll wait on my judgement on that when i've seen how hard the game is and decide if the death penality is fit for this type of game.

The proof will be in the pudding, as they say. If it isn't challenging enough that may affect how well it does. Of course, if the bulk of the modern gamers don't want above a certain, undefined as of yet, level of challenge and TOR is below that level, well, that too would have its effects.

Will be interesting to see.

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

The proof will be in the pudding, as they say. If it isn't challenging enough that may affect how well it does. Of course, if the bulk of the modern gamers don't want above a certain, undefined as of yet, level of challenge and TOR is below that level, well, that too would have its effects.

Will be interesting to see.

That's basically the best way to look at it, the medium will have to follow the demographic. I think in a way the industry as a whole has, from the single player world to the MP. IF you think back 10-12 years ago, it was okay for a game to start you at the beginning of a level everytime you died. 8 years ago, it was mandatory to have checkpoints throughout a level. 2 years after that, it was customary to allow saving at anytime.

Companies that didn't follow those rules were heavily scrutinzed by gaming media and still were until recently anyway. Now the media is praising games like dark souls/demon souls for bringing it back.

Maybe a new hardcore era will emerge, it's really up to the players at large in the end.

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

Originally posted by LisXia

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

 

Heh, 3 minutes? Okay, to me that's a quick trip to the kitchen for drink refill or an impromptu bio-break. I don't really consider that a punishment...err...that dev may be watching so I'll play along...ahem..."corrective treatment".

In my personal view if you are going to define "corrective treatment" in terms of time, you have to ask yourself is the amount of time spent going to deter or cause a reevaluation of the behavior that generated it by the player?

3 minutes? I'm guessing a big "no" on that one.

Next time it's 6 minutes, next 12, so on and so forth. It's really the same concept mario is built on. You die too much you lose the progress you've made on that level, (well in this case dungeon). It simply costs you time, games have been doing this for ages.

I sorta agree with the mario comparison except that, as of yet, I haven't seen anything that equates to a "starting the level completely over" as mario does when you use up all your lives.

A bit sidetracking, but the EQ1 type of corpse run is a total start over.  Worse.

You die in an instance, you are nake and your team is scattered throughout the world.  Each of you in your own bind spot

You each run to your bank to regear, make way to the dungeon entrance and announce team XX returned to recover camp spot.  Hope no one take that camp, then the whole team start clearing back to the camp to reloot your corpses and recover XP.

If the wipe is deep in a plane, good luck.

Even the vet EQ1 players were so disheartened that SoE introduce coffin and corpse summoning by necros and later SKs.

In console games, we use to have limited lives, say 6. After 6 dying, you have to start from the beginning again, that was how PS2 games goes usually.  I stopped playing console games after PS2.

I was speaking specifically about TOR. I'm very versed on the EQ1 corpse run. As well as the Asheron's Call corpse run. I've been there and gotten t-shirts from both. And loved every minute of it.

Hehe...the good 'ol days.  I'm not advocating a re-do, but Stephen Reid's comments are very telling about the casualness mindset that permeates the blandess off many mmorpgs with suicide-bomber playstyles without consequences.

Originally posted by Cik_Asalin

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

 

Hehe...the good 'ol days.  I'm not advocating a re-do, but Stephen Reid's comments are very telling about the casualness mindset that permeates the blandess off many mmorpgs with suicide-bomber playstyles without consequences.

 

In his words, Just click the Medical Probe, which is a resurrect in-place mechanism and allows you to get back in the fight straight-away [and in stealth no less].  So it’s EASY for you to get back into the fight.  There is NO PENALTY, other than [minor] time.

 

 

He may not have meant it literally, but then again, he meant to give that literal impression by even going as far as not calling it a death penalty, but correcting the connotation by spinning it as a "corrective treatment".

There is the armor and weapon damage penalty. Everytime you die your equipment loses durability. Which of course costs money to repair. This is usually enough incentive not to die.

Stephen Reid is a community manager and is therefore versed in PR. Saying "corrective treatment" instead of "death penalty" is a PR thing to say.

I think this has all been blown out of proportion. Then again most things are on these forums especially when it comes to SWTOR.

You armor will become degraded and you will need to eventually repair if you keep dying.

Originally posted by Atlan99

Wow thanks for the breaking news.

From E3.

Way back in June.

You know over 2 months ago.

     Not to mention that he completely ignores that each time you get killed it takes longer and longer before you can rez yourself again.  I guess you could call it a "upwardly scaling" penalty on top of the cost to repair your armor.  Of course if you don't mention that then the rant sounds so much more justified instead of just a rant.

Question for the guys promoting a more severe death penalty:

What is a good death penalty for you guys?

From the top of my head i would think this...

I'm solo questing. Not even inside a "cave" where I had to defead 152 creatures before reaching the rare mob inside it. No, no. Just on an open plain, filled with killer bunnies. One of them jumps and bites off my jugular vein = X_x

Now what you guys think is the propper way to punish me for my defeat?

1. I choose to go back to my respawn point, so now I have to walk aaaaaaaaaaall the way back to face that blood thirsty killer bunny.
2. I choose to rez right at the spot, but all my stats are penalyzed, my hp and mana are drained, my gear is damaged and I am no match for the killer bunny, who smelled my still warm blood, and inmediately turned around  to finish what he started, and alas, I die again.
3. I choose to rez at my respawn point, but all my stats are penalyzed, my hp and mana are drained, my gear is damaged, so not being a match for a killer bunny, I have to spend an outrageous ammount of money with NPCs or other Players, who have secondary proffesions who can repair my gear and heal my wounds, before I got back for another round vs the killer bunny.
4. I choose to rez at my respawn point, but all my stats are penalyzed, my hp and mana are drained, my gear is damaged, so not being a match for a killer bunny, I have to spend a ridiculous ammount of time, say 1 hour, before the rez secondary effects go away. In the meantime, I go around the city and outskirts gathering / trading the raw materials I will need to repair my damaged gear.

---

Originally posted by koira1
Also about that Medic drone, he also said that if you keep using it, it will take longer and longer for the drone to appear.

---

downtime for medical droid use start from 1min and go up to 10min

Yeah, we used to die, drop a shard and all our crap in a pile... respawn across 3 zones.... run back nekkid and dying over and over until (hopefully) we could finally get back to our crap pile and our spirit shard and reincarnate.  Fun.

Oh, and lets not forget losing xp the whole time... some nights just logging in to lose a level and get so frustrated you wanted to throw the computer through the wall.  Losing xp for other people in your group who died was even a finer idea.  Once a gnome drowned in a sewer because he afk'd while zoning in and wasn't TALL enough to have his head above water and I lost xp.

I miss those days.... /sigh

Now, all you have to worry about is the social humiliation of playing like crap and dying... maybe getting raid kicked, then possibly guild kicked... and being publically humiliated in a global channel or getting black balled from other guilds because you're a craptastic player.  Oh, you don't even have to DIE... you can just be 7th on a damage meter and suffer the same way... toon cybercide.  

I'm all for devs having a long list of relatively difficult hoops for players to jump through so they feel they've really accomplished something when they finally finish but I believe any type of masochistic bullshat like painful, zone hopping shard chases while dead should be optional or left out.  A game should be fun more than anything else... if you want to get spanked, I think you can pay for that somewhere else.