In many of the discussions on this forum, there seems to be some presumption that people who are strongly critical of TOR and/or Bioware overall or strongly supportive of them are monolithic and inflexible in thier stances  In support of civil and rationale discourse here, I'd like to challenge that theory and see if we aren't simply dismissing to easly those who hold differing views to our own.

I purpose that those of us who hold strong overall views about TOR/Bioware identify ourselves and post at least 3 specific aspects of TOR that run counter to thier overall stance. I.E. Those of us who are generaly critical, post 3 specific things that we find praiseworthy....and those of us who are generaly supportive post 3 specific things of which we are critical.

I'll go first...

Overall Stance: Negative

Postive Aspects of TOR:

1) Setting/Timeline - I thought the choice of where to place the game in the overall timeline was an extremely sensible decision by Bioware. Others might have had some temptation to cash in on the popularity of the recent movies & TV series by setting it in that period. However, Bioware selected a setting that was both close enough to be identifiable and distant enough to allow for significant freedom of narritive. It is a particularly dramatic period...and also supportive of thier existing fan base from previous single player games. So, good call Bioware.

2) Introduction of Mature/Complex Themes - On the surface, it is very easy to come away with a very balck/white impression of the narritive of the movies (heck, the main bad guy even wears a black cape of all things). Given the obvious potential marketing appeal of the IP for kids,  many would have been tempted to present a very simplistic black/white view of the Universe within thier MMO to cash in on it. From what I've read about the story arcs so far, to it's credit, Bioware seems obviously to have not gone that route. They seem to be presenting a far more complex and nuanced moral view of the SW Universe. This has been a hallmark of many previous Bioware titles, and I've always found it very praise worthy of them. To thier credit, they seem to be continuing that same trend in TOR.

3) Graphics/Art Style - Taste in art is obviously very subjective and I've heard others being critical of TOR's graphics. I'll simply state from what I've seen of them, I like them quite alot. The art style seems to fit the subject matter and setting very well and strikes me as true to the IP. I find the graphics strike a nice balance between realism and illustrative and from a technical standpoint look like they will be quite accessable to a range of different hardware. So...thumbs up from me in this category.

Overall stance: Positive - I preordered, I like Bioware as a single player rpg designer, art style looks good to me etc., I'll play as soon as I can but...

1) Too much focus on story - I don't want to play an MMO that has a story per se. That is not how MMOs work. MMOs are about adventures with other players online, whether coop or pvp. Having tools to make our own stories is vastly more important than any scripted story, no matter the quality.

2) Traditional Tab Targeted Combat - just boring to me.

3) Dearth of Species - There are too few playable species for my tastes. As others have said, it is really just different colored humans. With the vastness of the SW universe(s), son, I am disapoint. I really hope there is an expansion that adds more(jsut not gungans).

Originally posted by astoria

Overall stance: Positive - I preordered, I like Bioware as a single player rpg designer, art style looks good to me etc., I'll play as soon as I can but...

1) Too much focus on story - I don't want to play an MMO that has a story per se. That is not how MMOs work. MMOs are about adventures with other players online, whether coop or pvp. Having tools to make our own stories is vastly more important than any scripted story, no matter the quality.

100% agree.

Overall stance: postively interested.

What i don't like:

1) Only four true classes to a side, I would have liked to see a bit more in the way of options. The branching aspects are nice and all, but in the end you've still only got four real options to fit a persona. Star Wars is ripe in this regard, not taking advantage of that is a bad call IMO.

2) Voiced player characters, while it's nice in ME I don't think it was a necessity for TOR. There's also the problem that each player of the same class will have the same exact voice. If they have some way to manipulate your voices pitch, I'd drop this concern, haven't heard a word from them on this though.

3) Raiding being a major focus for end-game, while I'm sure there are plenty of gamers who enjoy raiding for gear. I want to see better options than this for end-game. I also prefer a focus on crafted gear over looted, I just hope they're able to keep crafted gear as a viable alternative to content rewards. I'll reserve judgement until I see it in action.

4) Ships on rails, tubes or what have you, just not my cup of tea.

5) It's not a sandbox....

[Mod Edit] 

@OP: interesting angle, I'd also suggest though some added information, like how far along the path of positive or negative someone is, like 'moderately negative' or 'very positive', with 'neutral' as the indifferent or 'meh' middle ground.

My stance: moderately positive

negatives:

- SWTOR isn't an MMOFPS: personally I think that an aim based shooter combat mechanics a la Planetside, Tabula Rasa or even better, BW's own Mass Efffect combat implementation where shooter mechanics and powers are combined, would have been a better choice.

- space combat should have included PvP hotspot scenarios: I can get that they simply don't have the resources to implement both space gameplay as well as landbased gameplay fully, after all SWG didn't have anything space related stuff at launch at all. But still I think they should have included something like PvP scenarios, where one side for example tries to escort and protect a convoy where as the other side tries to assault and capture the convoy, or for example a dog hunt amidst an asteroid field, and so on.

- territory control and strategic faction warfare: maybe something like that will still be announced, maybe not. However, if you want to make pvp get more meaning, then territory control or strategic warfare is the thing to do. Star Wars would lean itself perfectly for it. You could do it like DAoC that when one side controls some areas, that that faction will get some benefits, or say for example that if one faction controls key locations on Alderaan, it would influence the economy in that certain goods that are related to Alderaan would be cheaper to get. Besides, who wouldn't want to play in entrenched warfare on Hoth a la Empire Strikes Back, but then with an always ongoing war fought over bases and camps. You could even introduce RTS elements to it, like rebuilding defense towers, base shields that protect against heavy cannon fire etc.

Stance: Negative

1) Story & Characters:

Plenty of story, interactive dialogues, nice presentation. Companions will have a lot more depth and character development than your average NPC. Overall, Bioware will hopefully deliver.

2) Setting:

Sci-Fi is a welcome change. And, it's Star Wars, which is nice I guess.

3) Uhm...

I ran out of things I like about TOR. I guess i failed the test, then xP

Stance: Positive

As much as I would like the game to have more of everything, it's an MMO, which means it WILL bring more of everything.

Here's me hoping :).

Originally posted by Distopia

 

What i don't like:

1) Only four true classes to a side, I would have liked to see a bit more in the way of options. The branching aspects are nice and all, but in the end you've still only got four real options to fit a persona. Star Wars is ripe in this regard, not taking advantage of that is a bad call IMO.

Just have to comment: this is untrue, you should see the Advanced Classes in SWTOR as classes in other MMO's.

If you'd played AoC, EQ2 or Aion, you'd know what I mean. In AoC, a Conqueror plays very different from a Dark Templar or Guardian even if they fall into the same archetype Soldier class, in EQ2 you could start as rogue but if you play as Assassin or Brigand, it could feel very different.

The same in Aion, you can start as Mage but when you choose your finite class at Level 10 just like in SWTOR, a Sorcerer plays very different from a Spiritmaster, even if both had the same archetype class they started with at L1, namely Mage.

Originally posted by MMO.Maverick

Originally posted by Distopia

 

What i don't like:

1) Only four true classes to a side, I would have liked to see a bit more in the way of options. The branching aspects are nice and all, but in the end you've still only got four real options to fit a persona. Star Wars is ripe in this regard, not taking advantage of that is a bad call IMO.

Just have to comment: this is untrue, you should see the Advanced Classes in SWTOR as classes in other MMO's.

If you'd played AoC, EQ2 or Aion, you'd know what I mean. In AoC, a Conqueror plays very different from a Dark Templar or Guardian even if they fall into the same archetype Soldier class, in EQ2 you could start as rogue but if you play as Assassin or Brigand, it could feel very different.

The same in Aion, you can start as Mage but when you choose your finite class at Level 10 just like in SWTOR, a Sorcerer plays very different from a Spiritmaster, even if both had the same archetype class they started with at L1, namely Mage.

I'm talking persona, think Han, Boba etc... In LA terms iconic persona.

Sure they split up into separate classes, as I said that's cool, you're still essentially a smuggler or a BH, any way you slice it that's the outcome.

I'd rather be something else, and not a jedi :P.

This is actually a good thread that allows players to step outside their own boundaries and say "Hey, I actually don't/do like things about the game" and it still gets trolled by TL;DR's. I love the internet!

Overall Stance: Positive Neutral

Things I like (3):

The IP:

Lightsabers, force powers, jedi robes, blasters. These are all things that I've grown up dreaming of having as a kid. It's extremely popular and I'm looking forward to a Sci-Fi IP.

Hybridization of classes:

Every single pure class in the game can be atleast two roles. Whether you can change your subclass later (like re-specing) to make this statement completely true, I haven't seen an response on yet (I don't follow too close, however).

Focus on Story:

I've always been a sucker for stories. I've read every Warcraft book and been a Warhammer freak of nature for years. I'm more of the mindset that MMO's should allow players to create their own stories as it makes them more personal and interesting, but I've enjoyed Bioware games as well so we'll see how this pans out.

Things I dislike (4):

Combat:

Same old, same old. Not much to say this beyond "WoW".

Questing & End Game:

The leveling curve hopefully won't be plagued too bad with "Point A to Point B's", but I hate questing with a passion and what I've heard is that it's probably going to be very similar end-game to whats currently out there.

Too strong connections with "Jedi":

I just can't see the appeal of playing some guy with a gun over being able to be a force wielding badass with a lightsaber. They were the badasses in all the movies, so I see these classes as being the ones that are extremely overplayed.

No space:

This is Star Wars. Not including space into any part of it right away (besides owning a ship and some on-rails shooting) is a big mistake.

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by MMO.Maverick

Originally posted by Distopia

 

What i don't like:

1) Only four true classes to a side, I would have liked to see a bit more in the way of options.

I'm talking persona, think Han, Boba etc... In LA terms iconic persona.

Sure they split up into separate classes, as I said that's cool, you're still essentially a smuggler or a BH, any way you slice it that's the outcome.

I'd rather be something else, and not a jedi :P.

Ah yes, I was purely talking mechanics wise, the highlighted part

I like the thread idea.  Good job for mixing it up.

Overall stance: Positive

Negative aspects:

Character faces:  Hate'em  absolutely hate'em.  The hair is lifeless, and there always seems to be some kind of plastic-y sheen on everything.  Non-human races seems to be a bit better.. but not by much.  Everyone should wear helmets.

Misuse of cover system:  They could have knocked it out of the park had all ranged classes been able to use a kind of cover system,  but they really didn't implement it very well, giving only moderate boosts when using portable cover and a real lack of natural cover around a lot of places.  On top of that,  troopers and bounty hunters should be able to use cover.  Likewise, bounty hunters with jetpacks should be able to use them to get around.   There should have been more activity within this system to make it more than just a 2 class gimmick.  (though smuggler is my planned main class)

Space Combat:  I would have liked to see it expanded quite a bit,  more choices in ships for classes,  more customization,  more free roam style gameplay,  and multi-multi-multi-player would have been ideal.

I have plenty more negatives,  but again,  I'm positive overall here,  there are more things I like than dislike.

Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

In many of the discussions on this forum, there seems to be some presumption that people who are strongly critical of TOR and/or Bioware overall or strongly supportive of them are monolithic and inflexible in thier stances. In essence, they are simply "haters" or "fanboys".  In support of civil and rationale discourse here, I'd like to challenge that theory and see if we aren't simply dismissing to easly those who hold differing views to our own.

I purpose that those of us who hold strong overall views about TOR/Bioware identify ourselves and post at least 3 specific aspects of TOR that run counter to thier overall stance. I.E. Those of us who are generaly critical, post 3 specific things that we find praiseworthy....and those of us who are generaly supportive post 3 specific things of which we are critical.

I'll go first...

 

Overall Stance: Negative

 

Postive Aspects of TOR:

1) Setting/Timeline - I thought the choice of where to place the game in the overall timeline was an extremely sensible decision by Bioware. Others might have had some temptation to cash in on the popularity of the recent movies & TV series by setting it in that period. However, Bioware selected a setting that was both close enough to be identifiable and distant enough to allow for significant freedom of narritive. It is a particularly dramatic period...and also supportive of thier existing fan base from previous single player games. So, good call Bioware.

2) Introduction of Mature/Complex Themes - On the surface, it is very easy to come away with a very balck/white impression of the narritive of the movies (heck, the main bad guy even wears a black cape of all things). Given the obvious potential marketing appeal of the IP for kids,  many would have been tempted to present a very simplistic black/white view of the Universe within thier MMO to cash in on it. From what I've read about the story arcs so far, to it's credit, Bioware seems obviously to have not gone that route. They seem to be presenting a far more complex and nuanced moral view of the SW Universe. This has been a hallmark of many previous Bioware titles, and I've always found it very praise worthy of them. To thier credit, they seem to be continuing that same trend in TOR.

3) Graphics/Art Style - Taste in art is obviously very subjective and I've heard others being critical of TOR's graphics. I'll simply state from what I've seen of them, I like them quite alot. The art style seems to fit the subject matter and setting very well and strikes me as true to the IP. I find the graphics strike a nice balance between realism and illustrative and from a technical standpoint look like they will be quite accessable to a range of different hardware. So...thumbs up from me in this category.

I posted pretty much this exact thread about a month ago.  It got deleted within 30 minutes and I eventually got banned for it.  The reasoning involved when i PM'd the moderator was (paraphrased) "we don't really like people calling others 'haters' or 'fanboys' ".   

MMORPG isn't interested in objective discussions here.  Trolling others is ok, rampant fanboyism is encouraged.  But trying to have an objective discussion is out of fashion.

Good luck to ya.

edit:  I suppose i might as well post my on-topic response too.  I can't really declare myself either way.  I'm comitted to buying and playing the game, so i'm not really against it.  I also think bioware has made a lot of terrible decisions in the design, so I can't say i'm a huge supporter.  So i'll post both.

3 Positives:

1.  Bringing single-player quality storyline to MMOs.  I'm a big fan of single-player RPGs (especially bioware ones) and getting that same game PLUS being able to play online after is great.  Getting 5 times the length of the game is even better.

2.  moral compass with reprecussions.  i've always wanted to have a game that actually tracks your moral decisions and adjusts the world accordingly.  i still have a hard time understanding how they can reconcile having decisions "that matter" and have reprecussions with the fact that players do not want to make decisions that leave a permanent effect, but i'm eager to push the system to the limits and find out.

3.  branching quests.  i've always enjoyed these in other MMOs that had them and wished that there were more. 

3 negatives:

1.  Game is not designed to provide the experience of being in the "world of star wars".  It's designed to be experienced mostly as a single player experience and all the choices you make run counter ot the overall world around you and the other people you interact with, which in the longterm destroys any sense of immersion in the world as soon you interact with other players.  (This is true for many games, but will be moreso for a game where so much more is invested in the story.)   I was hoping the game would have a story for the world, not just 8 stories - one for each class.

2.  Poor representation of classes aside from combat.  No smuggling for smugglers, no bounty hunting for bounty hunters, no espionage for spies, no diplomacy for consulars.  To me, a smuggler is not just a dude that uses a gun.  It's a guy that can outfly a pursuit, create hidden compartments in his ship, take risky missions and sell drugs.  And I don't want to just talk about it, i want to be good at it.

3.  Lack of proper space content.  It's not even about the "on rails" piece.  It's abotu the fact that combat is all there is to space and it's not even multiplayer.

I'm an ULTRA FAN. I think this is the best game ever! And I want it to be my #1 game for the next few years at least.

Things I would have made different (let's take into account it's easy to point these out, but actually being part of the team that creates them in a game shouldn't be ~that~ easy):

• Combat A-LA-FPS: Since I am going to play a Republic Trooper, I think it would have been absolutely amazing to have an actual aiming combat system in the game. I've been playing Global Agenda lately and I have to say that I am enjoying the gameplay a lot. But said combat system makes life misserable for melee classes.

Damn... I'm actually having troubles comming up with something else... .ah..... let me se....

Ok! I got another

• Spaceship customization: I would have loved so much to be able to modify my spaceship in both the way it looks and the armament it carries. And even the function. I have to say that I like a lot the game model used for the space combat minigame. I remember my happy days playing Top Gun and Captain Skyhawk in NES and of course Star Fox in SNES. Totally loved them. But as game mechanics advanced with time, I also came to like games a-la-EVE. Ships with different functions such as science ships, defense vessels, capital destroyers, drone carriers (my personal favorites) and others. Either way I would have enjoyed to modifiy the way my ship looks to make it ~MY SHIP~

And now a third one.... hold on... give me a moment...

How about...

• Robotics Specialist: I would have loved to have a technician class that could specialize in using combat and support droids and/or combat and support turrets. After all "Pet Classes" are very popular in MMOs. I know the companion system makes up for this, nonetheless, I would have definitely have a character like this.

Positive:

1. Graphics - Sorry can't jump on this bandwagon.. The graphics look crisp and highly satify me.

2. Story / Voice - I feel like this might be the first MMO that I actually read / follow ONE SINGLE quest lore. Plus its tried and true famous Lore, not some rehashed fantasy 'oh noes the dark forces r invadin' lore created by some random dudes. Actually looking forward to questing.

3. If you arent suddenly expecting every single mmo that comes out to be earthshattering and revolutionary and change the face of gaming forever (they are mmorpgs, they wont) its actually extremely polished looking / sounding and you can even see how well it controls through the videos.

4. Looking forward to the end game raiding / instances, I personally dont want ALL my gear just handed to me on a silver platter, putting in some real hours to get some sparkly sword or pink shoes of carnage is really satisfying.

5. So many of the "cant create my own sentences or opinions" crowd quickly call this game a WoW-Clone, which to me is an attractive feature, as long as they are cloning the good parts of wow. Seeing as Wow DID change the face of gaming, atleast MMO gaming by bringing a once semi obscure niche genre to the masses, and to be quite honest , even thought I dont like WoW anymore. In its time it was a really awesome top of the line game :-)    Now if someone were to say ToR is a GW1 clone, or a Diablo2 Clone, or a Call of duty clone I would probably run away, if you are going to clone something atleast clone the biggest best most successful last gen game in your genre.

6. I want to pay a monthly sub fee.  Appearently Im like the only gamer in the world with a gaming budget higher then 14.99 a month.. But , not even saying I will play ToR for a year, but lets say I play GAME X for 2 years nonstop.. GAME X is my favorite game of all time, paying monthly fees for a quality service I am enjoying is not an issue.  Paying a monthly fee tends to ween out quite a bit of the "f2p" crowd.. (which I dont care what you say, F2P communitys/chats/players in general are the scum of the earth).  I would even like to see GAME X, which I subscribe too have Cosmetic item shop so I can support my game further.

Anyway,  I plan on playing ToR on release, and if im not totally hooked I will pick up GW2.  Dont consider myself a fanboi at all of any game, but having played MMOs since UO release, I have to go with my judgement and pick what I think will be more fun to play.

My attitude: mostly positive

Some negative things about the game for me:

1) Lack of iconic species as playable options at release. Heck it seems like most of the playable species are new ones made up for this game. I don't find their explanation for why they didn't have Wookies etc. very convincing. WTB playable Yoda species!

2) Lack of a pure healing class. I think this will actually work the opposite of how they intend and put even more pressure on smugglers, consulars, etc. to specialize in healing. I plan to make an offensive consular and/or inquisitor anyway. Anybody who doesn't approve of my spec can eat my lightsaber.

3) Too much focus overall on PvE / story / raiding. I like all of those in moderation but it sounds like you will have to do large quantities of them whether you want to or not.

4) Jedi and Sith wearing bulky suits of armor just seems weird and contrary to lore to me.

Overall Stance: Positive

Negative stances on SWToR

1. Animation (not graphics) quality is not nearly as well done as I would have liked. Lightsabre duels in particular could use some improvement.

2. Combat is too static. Too often the cover bonuses encourage sitting in one place for too long. I would prefer more action in the 3rd person shooting aspect.

3. SWToR has too strong of an emphasis on raiding. The best gear coming from raiding is old idea whose time has gone. There needs to be multiple paths for end game gear both pvp as well as pve.  

Originally posted by Metentso

Originally posted by astoria

Overall stance: Positive - I preordered, I like Bioware as a single player rpg designer, art style looks good to me etc., I'll play as soon as I can but...

1) Too much focus on story - I don't want to play an MMO that has a story per se. That is not how MMOs work. MMOs are about adventures with other players online, whether coop or pvp. Having tools to make our own stories is vastly more important than any scripted story, no matter the quality.

100% agree.

me too

+in my opinion cut scenes & voice acting are waste of time for an MMOrpg,...yes i ll try this game two meybe 3 months but how looking now i am not stay long time.

Originally posted by Rudras

Originally posted by Metentso

Originally posted by astoria

Overall stance: Positive - I preordered, I like Bioware as a single player rpg designer, art style looks good to me etc., I'll play as soon as I can but...

1) Too much focus on story - I don't want to play an MMO that has a story per se. That is not how MMOs work. MMOs are about adventures with other players online, whether coop or pvp. Having tools to make our own stories is vastly more important than any scripted story, no matter the quality.

100% agree.

me too

+in my opinion cut scenes & voice acting are waste of time for an MMOrpg,...yes i ll try this game two meybe 3 months but how looking now i am not stay long time.

If your not a fan of story than Bioware and SWTOR are not for you. 

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Originally posted by astoria
Overall stance: Positive - I preordered, I like Bioware as a single player rpg designer, art style looks good to me etc., I'll play as soon as I can but...
1) Too much focus on story - I don't want to play an MMO that has a story per se. That is not how MMOs work. MMOs are about adventures with other players online, whether coop or pvp. Having tools to make our own stories is vastly more important than any scripted story, no matter the quality.

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Not that I'm suddenly proposing HOW this marriage of seemingly opposite things could've been done or anything, but then again I'm not a game designer so it's not my job to do so.