This is a topic that i often talk about with friends.

Back in 1999 I joined a friend in playing Everquest. We had played Diablo 2 before that, but with the increasing popularity of ISDN Internet Flatrates, MMOs started to become more accessible for alot of people.

I still clearly remember the first day in Everquest, I remember exactly where i appeared in the world of Norrath. I had chosen Dark Elf Enchanter as my starting class and race, and I immediately got lost in the underground city of Neriak, wich consisted of 3 zones.

With the help of my friend I finally found the spell vendor, bought a robe from the money my friend gave me and he led me out to the Nektulos Forrest and the "newbie Lodge", wich basically was a dead tree laying on the ground with low level mobs running around it.

Needless to say I wandered off too far away from it in this dark Forrest (it really was dark, couldn't see much) and in panic ran away further and further into the forrest, where I eventually got myelf killed by some "high level" skeleton.

The world was mysterious, everything was new. A totally new concept of gameplay with unusual and harsh rules. But it was exciting and I felt small and weak and lost. I heard tales of dungeons and how dangerous they were and I imagined how it had to look in there. Leveling up was slow and tedious, but at the same time it gave you time to explore the world, talk to people, make friends that lasted till the end.

I don't know if these old school MMOs where the better games. Judging by sheer numbers they probably weren't, as capitalism tries to teach us more sales = more demand = better game.

Judging by the good memories we all seem to have about those "golden days of MMOs" they probably were better than todays instant gratification MMOs, because their type of gameplay made you immerse yourself much more into them. It might have hurt sometimes, but in the long run it was so worth it because everything we accomplished meant so much more to us.

I don't think those times will come back, of course not. Those types of MMOs won't come back either. It had become a big business. The journey is no longer the goal, phat lewts and easy rewards are.

All we have left is the knowledge of how it used to be, and that alot of newer folks will never know what they missed.

To most it doesn't matter, because they are happy with what they get today. But I am sure some of them would have enjoyed and old school UO, Meridian, EQ or DAOC too.

I loved UO and DAoC far more than newer MMOs because even with 11 million players, WoW never managed to create same type of communities as were there in UO or DAoC.

Solo-centrism ruined MMOs for me...in DAoC I could log in for a hour, join grinding group and achieve more than in two hours of solo questing in WoW. UO had such social aspects to it that because of that, even though it's over a decade old, it's still decades ahead of competition when it comes to gameplay.

Originally posted by labryinth

Ok so this is a question to everyone who started with the now 'oldschool' MMORPGs like EQ and Ultima etc.etc, not WoW or Guild Wars, but just 1990-2003.

 

A lot of people really hate what the MMO market is now, but I was wondering if everyone who played the older MMOs actually felt exactly the same way when WoW and GW and all those types of games came out?

 

Did you all think 'WoW is way too casual, same with GW and EQ2' compared to EQ1 etc in 2004 and whenever GW came out?

 

Or do the oldschool and vanilla WoW, GW etc. players all agree that back in 2004 and downwards was collectively when MMOs were the best? Or do you think only EQ and Ultima Online were the best MMOs?

 

It's hard to explain but basically: was Everquest, DAoC and Ultima Online better than World of Warcraft (Vanilla) and Guild Wars (Vanilla) in your opinion, or do you think WoW and GW were the same games but just improved? Or did you think WoW and GW were in fact better than Everquest and Ultima even though you started with Eq and Ultima?

 

Hopefully you understand what I'm trying to ask.

imo GW wasnt even much of a mmorpg...if it was it was VERY borderline..and no i didnt like thought it was horrible and differant at the time..and yes i think UO and "old Eq was much better i wouldnt even say much for daoc cuz it was all mostly about lvling to go rvr not too sandboxy imo either ..imo UO AC "old EQ were the cream of the the crop

I still think EQ is the best MMO that has / will come out.  I like different things than most MMO players these days though. I like a sense of community, grouping, grinding / dungeon crawl rather than questing, large scale raids (10man is a what?), truly epic quests, and not having the game completely reset each expansion.

WoW style game play is what most are looking for, and unfortunately I think MMOs have forever changed in that direction. I still have fun logging into newer mmos for a few minutes at a time to check them out, but long gone are the days when I could play an MMO for 6-16 hours at a time and never get bored. I can only take solo questing for so long.

EverQuest is still my all time favorite, followed closely by Dark Age of Camelot. Ultima Online and Asheron's Call are right up there. 

I enjoy playing WoW, I also really enjoyed Vanguard. SWG before the big change was a cool game as well. 

But overall, the first wave of MMOs are really my favorites, I mean back then no one used the word vanilla to describe a game... That was saved for a flavor of ice cream or a type of...well...

WoW may have changed the way mainstream MMOs are produced, but that does not mean all developers have to follow that forumula. 

Pitch Black games, makers of Prime, have stated that they dont want a slice of the WoW Pie, and they are doing their own deal. Sanya has stated that if you dont like the way the game is being made, there's the door. 

the MMO genre has 2 demographcis. the 500,000-750,000 that want a more community oriented game, and the other 10 million that want an arcade. since 10,000,000 > 750,000, the original demographic gets ignored. (numbers btw are made up. but its common knowledge that those who want an arcade mmo out number the old school types). 

There is a market for another EQ/DAOC/UO/AC, the sad thing is that greed has set in and everyone wants to be the next billion dollar developer. 

Originally posted by pasi11

well, I started playing daoc and anyone will tell you at the time,, wow was filled with bugs and was terribly unbalanced... like awful.. but they actually put work towards it and here we are about 7 years later... ohh and daoc was super fun,, cept like when it came out their was so much crazy shit goin on with september 11th and whatnot... lol a lot of people stopped playin and worried about other shit..

WoW came out about 3 years after 9/11.  So you must have been playing DAoC for a few years before you saw WoW eh?

-Ian

/minusian@gmail.com

Played UO liked the freedom but always hated 2d always. I had some fun with the pvp in the game but wasnt impressed by it, I think it gets way too much credit by oldschoolers who just liked the simplicity of it.

But you left out Aherons call which in my opinion other than early DAOC was far superior to EQ and UO.

Originally posted by oscarian

Originally posted by pasi11

well, I started playing daoc and anyone will tell you at the time,, wow was filled with bugs and was terribly unbalanced... like awful.. but they actually put work towards it and here we are about 7 years later... ohh and daoc was super fun,, cept like when it came out their was so much crazy shit goin on with september 11th and whatnot... lol a lot of people stopped playin and worried about other shit..

WoW came out about 3 years after 9/11.  So you must have been playing DAoC for a few years before you saw WoW eh?

 

-Ian

/minusian@gmail.com

 Well...Camelot released Oct. 2001, so there WAS a little bleed over - but not noticible (sp?)  It was also pretty much THE smoothest launch up until Rift!.   Frankly, Camelot reallty didn't begin to pick up steam until the SI expac.  From there, until about a year after ToA servers were pretty much packed - all of them.

  Warcraft released in Nov 2004 (significantly later) and really, it was NOT a good launch (yeah - anyone remember 2 minute loot lag?)

I had issues with EQ.  I didn't like the 8 slot limit for spells, and I thought they should of sped it up some.  It was pretty slow combat-wise.  It didn't age well.  Eventually I became bored with it, although it was fun for awhile.

I play UO also, and it was fun for awhile.  But I became bored with that also.

I spent alot of time on them, and it was fun, but eventually all games become boring.  Especially if your playing them all the time.

I was just fine until the WoW population poured into other MMOs. Now everyone starts out as noob that doesn't know much, and thats fine. But when you have millions of ignorant people come on to the scene at once, its beyond annoying. I don't mean ignorant in an insulting way, but lets face it, a large percentage 80-90% of WoW players are people who didn't even know about the concept of MMOs. Thats why you have so many people using terms like "WoW Clone". Because they're too ignorant to realize that WoW isn't original in the slightest. And because theres so many people saying the same wrong thing, its heavily reenforced and they accept it as fact.

ITs not really anyone's fault, unless you go back far enough, its sort of mmo dev/publishers fault that came before WoW. They sucked at marketing so bad and failed to pull in some of the people that WoW pulled in. So instead of a nice stream of new ppl, we got drops. And WoW was like a massive flooding of new people into the genre,

Originally posted by jinxxed0

I was just fine until the WoW population poured into other MMOs. Now everyone starts out as noob that doesn't know much, and thats fine. But when you have millions of ignorant people come on to the scene at once, its beyond annoying. I don't mean ignorant in an insulting way, but lets face it, a large percentage 80-90% of WoW players are people who didn't even know about the concept of MMOs. Thats why you have so many people using terms like "WoW Clone". Because they're too ignorant to realize that WoW isn't original in the slightest. And because theres so many people saying the same wrong thing, its heavily reenforced and they accept it as fact.

 

ITs not really anyone's fault, unless you go back far enough, its sort of mmo dev/publishers fault that came before WoW. They sucked at marketing so bad and failed to pull in some of the people that WoW pulled in. So instead of a nice stream of new ppl, we got drops. And WoW was like a massive flooding of new people into the genre,

It has nothing to do with your post really, but I have a problem with people saying that the term "WoW clone" comes from people new to the genre, who perhaps started playing these games with World of Warcraft. On the contrary, this phrase is used by a multitude of people to relate an experience that's fairly base, and is simply common termonology. I've been playing MMO's since the UO beta, so I certainly didn't start with WoW, but I use the term quite frequently when trying to describe one particular game to another, for an individual who is likely familiar with the mechanics, concepts, or features that are so frequently shared between games like World of Warcraft. In that same regard, I think it's an ignorant opinion to assume these people are all new to playing these games, when in fact some of us are just calling things the way we see them.

I started with UO in 97 and have been playing MMO's since.

When WOW first came out, I was wicked excited and pumped for it because of my love for Diablo.

At first I was very impressed and excited with the graphics and story.

After a couple of months I was sort of "depressed" and felt like I was just randomly pairing with people and mindlessly repeating the same type of tasks over and over again with different skins. I felt like it was a huge departure from what I enjoyed from my previous MMO experiences. I felt like I was playing a single player game ... with other people in it also playing single player games.  The objectives, playstyle and community were just so different. It was a real lack of adventure and wonder that you had in the virtual world sandbox of UO or the truly open RvR excitement of DAoC.

Because of that I cancelled my membership and didn't play MMO's for a while. Eventually I came to grips with the fact that this is just the way things are nowadays and that experience I was looking for did not exist anymore and started playing games in todays themepark mold. I've been playing since but usually I can only play for a few months at a time and then the shiny wears off and it's the same type of thing over and over.

Don't get me wrong - it has it's merrits. But it's why I play single player games. Not why I fell in love with the adventure and endless possibilities of MMO's.

I absolutely hated Ultima online when I tried it. I had a horrible time trying to keep connected. Of course that wasn't the only issue for me but dial up was pretty flaky back then. I avoided EQ when it first came out. I believe PC gamer called it "Neverquest" when it was first reviewed. I picked it up shortly after Kunark  (1st expansion) came out and I instantly fell in love with it.

I broke my cherry on EQ and everything was new, exciting and fun. The game didn't hold your hand and it could be tough, even brutal at times. There was no instant gratification with this game. You had to work for everything and your gear, even if it wasn't raid gear was a testimonial to what you'd done and where you'd been. When I hit my first dragon raid (Vox) I was instantly hooked on raiding which was a totally new dimension I'd never experienced before.

Sadly as the game progressed and they started introducing AA's (alternate advancement) the game got muddied with abilities. I played a monk and I was a pretty good puller. I saw my role being reduced from this as rogues began to be able to do things *almost* as well with certain aa's. What I loved about EQ was slowly being eaten away at. The skill part of the game was steadily being removed.

To answer your question I loved my time in EQ. You had to fight and earn your reputation. If you were a sucky player or an asshat good luck getting into a good guild (and maybe even decent groups). If you ninja looted you would be blacklisted for the most part. I don't think any game will ever capture that feeling again because it was the first. You can never recapture that old feeling. EQ is a completely different game now. Hell so is WoW and DaoC (both of which I played).

Hopefully one day someone will make a game similar to EQ which needs actual skill to play and allows players to make up their own tactics within the game world instead of what we have now. That's a game I would like to play.

Originally posted by labryinth

It's hard to explain but basically: was Everquest, DAoC and Ultima Online better than World of Warcraft (Vanilla) and Guild Wars (Vanilla) in your opinion

I think it's important to note that it was not just the games.

The people who were online at the time were not your average joe.

People who had internet access at the time were rather intelligent, mostly male, people were more relaxed, mostly adults. People were outspoken, there were less PC correct rules too, because there were far less kids online. The people online were completely different.

If you were none of the above you were not accepted into the EQ community, you were shunned until you learned not to act like a douchebag. If you were not accepted, you got no groups, and you were blacklisted.

It was not JUST the game, it was a whole different community.

EQ was not a mainstream thing, nor were MMO.

Mind you, forums were different at the time too, forums had almost no moderators, usenet at times was like 4chan were the community policed itself. We had no one looking over our shoulder telling us how to behave, people formed their own rules. Now someone tells you what the rules are, it is completely different. It is not just the games that changed, the people did too.

Originally posted by labryinth

Ok so this is a question to everyone who started with the now 'oldschool' MMORPGs like EQ and Ultima etc.etc, not WoW or Guild Wars, but just 1990-2003.

 

A lot of people really hate what the MMO market is now, but I was wondering if everyone who played the older MMOs actually felt exactly the same way when WoW and GW and all those types of games came out?

 

Did you all think 'WoW is way too casual, same with GW and EQ2' compared to EQ1 etc in 2004 and whenever GW came out?

 

Or do the oldschool and vanilla WoW, GW etc. players all agree that back in 2004 and downwards was collectively when MMOs were the best? Or do you think only EQ and Ultima Online were the best MMOs?

 

It's hard to explain but basically: was Everquest, DAoC and Ultima Online better than World of Warcraft (Vanilla) and Guild Wars (Vanilla) in your opinion, or do you think WoW and GW were the same games but just improved? Or did you think WoW and GW were in fact better than Everquest and Ultima even though you started with Eq and Ultima?

 

Hopefully you understand what I'm trying to ask.

I started Ultima Online 1998, very shortly after the game had been released. I remember reading its review in pc gamer magazine at the time, and even though it didnt get a great rating it sound so enteresting and fun I had to get it.

Anyways I am sure this will sound like a broken record but UO was the best mmorpg period. I say that for one reason all the others are the same, or use the level base = raid system found in early EQ.

1. They all have levels

2. Have to kill rat A to get to level 2 to kill rat B, rinse repeat level 50 raid blamo.

I played EQ when it first came out and it was a great game, but somewhere down the line every other game ever made after EQ just took the EQ design and expanded on it. So to me all the games are boring after EQ, since I got to experience EQ all they  way through 3 of there expansions. WOW is a great game I played it for at least a year, but it's just a polished EQ.

UO on the other hand was a totally different experience. You could just log in and hang around the bank and have a great time. People talked with each other all the time, there wasn't this sense of rush in it, it was way more layed back and sociable. I am very suprised that no other company tried and develelop a game like UO since its release. Its especially suprising considering the game is still being played as we speak for near 15 years now.

Originally posted by labryinth

Ok so this is a question to everyone who started with the now 'oldschool' MMORPGs like EQ and Ultima etc.etc, not WoW or Guild Wars, but just 1990-2003.

 

A lot of people really hate what the MMO market is now, but I was wondering if everyone who played the older MMOs actually felt exactly the same way when WoW and GW and all those types of games came out?

 

Did you all think 'WoW is way too casual, same with GW and EQ2' compared to EQ1 etc in 2004 and whenever GW came out?

 

Or do the oldschool and vanilla WoW, GW etc. players all agree that back in 2004 and downwards was collectively when MMOs were the best? Or do you think only EQ and Ultima Online were the best MMOs?

 

It's hard to explain but basically: was Everquest, DAoC and Ultima Online better than World of Warcraft (Vanilla) and Guild Wars (Vanilla) in your opinion, or do you think WoW and GW were the same games but just improved? Or did you think WoW and GW were in fact better than Everquest and Ultima even though you started with Eq and Ultima?

 

Hopefully you understand what I'm trying to ask.

My thoughts on that:  

I was living in japan when WOW came out.  I don't know exactly how long it had been out when I decided to finally play it.  I had been to busy to keep up with the genre for a bit, but had just gotten a new laptop and wanted to play.  I wanted "Something different"  and was eagerly awaiting DDO.  What I was tired of was the standard MMO Tropes of the Holy Trinity/kill 10 rats standard styles of play.

I played Auto Assault, and was disappointed to find that it was "the holy trinity, with cars".  I quit that (as did pretty much everyone else).  So when I booted up WOW, and played it (I lasted right around a month of playing)  my primary thoughts were:  "Hey, I've played this game time and time again, This is just a very well polished version of it"

Originally posted by Aethaeryn

A lot of what made those games better was the community.  It was a new experience.  Usually the age of someone playing was at least 18+ since you had to have an internet connection (dial-up). . be able to tie up your own phone line (not your parents) and pay the sub.

Also, they were new. . there were no online guides or maps.  people had fun exploring and asking questions. . this is why the games were social.

 

Today if you ask for directions you are told to goggle it.  Also not only are there online guides now but there are buit in quest helpers.  No need to talk to anyone.

 

If the games were truly better you could play them right now.  UO (second age) is running strong and Meridian is free to play now (no item shop even!).  Go play UO again and you will find a fun game. . but that 'new' experience is gone.

 

I think it is less about the games and more about the people.  As a casual player now with old-school roots I am out of luck.  I don't have time for a game community (MO, UO, Xsyon etc) and the newer "easier" games bore me to tears.

--

You nailed it...by the time alot of us where playing these games back then (DAOC) for me. 

I was already living on my own and many of my friends where in the same age bracket.

The maturity level was there, and the fact that alot of us took the game some what more serious and I dont mean as a second job. I made alot of great friends and I do keep in touch with a few.

At least for me DAOC was not all about the loot, and the loot or gear did not define the player it was about skill as well. The learning curve was a bit high but it was a good thing it kept alot of 12 year old crowd away from it.

The community was also great it you were not pitted against one another. 

I did not hear about folks ninjaing items till I played WOW...this was unheard of on DAOC and if you did...no one and I mean no one would group with you.

 

Started with UO shortly after Trammel was introduced.  Played EQ a bit, and played DAoC fairly hardcore off and on for a year.

EQ- I loved the game.  The problem was the time it required to really do anything in the game, and not knowing anyone else who played.  If I were a rich kid who could sit at home all day, I would have played the hell out of EQ, made some friends and had some epic adventures I'm sure I would still be fondly remembering.  The problem is I'm not a rich kid who can sit at home.  I've had to work one or more jobs while putting myself through college.

DAoC- Fantastic game.  While I enjoyed the occasional bit of pvp in UO, this is the game that made me start thinking of myself as a pvp player.  Had some great times with this game, but again the time needed to level up and get into the action was an obstacle.

UO- I spent 3 fantastic years in this game.  Had a lot of druken fun doing dungeons, exploring or just hanging out around the blacksmith's shop.  If EA were to update the engine for this game and re-release it they would make a ton of money.  Hell I'd still play if my friends were interested.

World of Warcraft

WoW seemed to offer much of the experience of previous games but cater to people who had lives outside of the game.  This is a game where you could have a job, family, go to school, hang out with mates, and still have time to progress in the game.  However the deepness of the game wasn't what it appeared to be.  WoW is in now way as deep as older games.  In EQ religion, bribes and reputation had a much bigger impact than simply giving you access to a merchant.  Killing enemies of certain cities could open up new towns to you, but had the consequence of making you enemies with the enemies of your new friends.

I actually only played WoW for a few months when it came out.  I spent the years after UO/DAoC playing a lot of GW and kind of faded from the mmorpg scene for years.  AoC and WAR rekindled my interest in the genre and since their less than spectacular launches I've been drifiting from game to game, including WoW, looking for a home.