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Originally posted by dalynch83 Ok so maybe I am more in the minority for the morning crowd, but come on this is bioware. They made KoTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect, Dragon Age. The developer know how to put a shine on a good RPG                                                           

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BW may be able to create a decent RPG, but as a SW fanatic, I felt KoTOR fell very short. It just didn't feel like SW for me, like they were really reaching, and not really fans of the material.

They lost me as soon as the Twilek teenager muttered the words "intergalactic skank..."

My opinion column has nothing to do with this site, nor did I read the forums before I wrote it. (My days of obsessive forum-reading are long, long gone.)

And that's just the point: there are quite a few of us who would *like* to be frothing about SWTOR but aren't, and those opinions are formed just as yours are: from what we've read and what we've seen. Not being as excited about it as you doesn't make what our concerns less valid.

Originally posted by alancode

You read books, well imagine being inside a book..being that Hero character saving the day..or obliterating someones hopes or dreams, or even their planet. You watch movies? You will be IN the movie, taking every step in the movie and watching it unfold before your eyes. Your choices will matter to you and make your experience different than any other player. 

You will not only read, but hear people interact with you, through their own voice, who have emotion, fear, love, and hate. 

You can fight to destory the Sith Empire and save the Galaxy, or rid the Galaxy of the Republic and be in large fights with other players to defend or destory. 

It will make you feel like you there, a part of the universe. 

Thats why I wanna play. 

 

Screw their story. If I want to passively observe someone else's story I will watch a movie or read a book as you attempt to analogize. It is a failed analogy. In an Online Role Playing game, you should be able to make up stories with your friends or even PUGs. This might not make sense to some people that want only the shallow arcade improved-split screen experience, but this is where many of us that played PnP games are coming from. It doesn't have to be fully sandbox to allow RP, but scripted RP is scripted RP and a viable MMO needs more. The 1 or  2 choices that seem to be presented in this game may be an attempt but I'm concerned about the replayability. From what I can gather, once you go through the story once, you've gone through it.

Originally posted by Bob_Blawblaw

 

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Originally posted by dalynch83 Ok so maybe I am more in the minority for the morning crowd, but come on this is bioware. They made KoTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect, Dragon Age. The developer know how to put a shine on a good RPG                                                           

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BW may be able to create a decent RPG, but as a SW fanatic, I felt KoTOR fell very short. It just didn't feel like SW for me, like they were really reaching, and not really fans of the material.

They lost me as soon as the Twilek teenager muttered the words "intergalactic skank..."

 

I don't think it is just possible to make any fanatic (you claim to be one) happy whether they are SW fanatics or Sta Trek fanatics. You sure problem is with bioware and not you? we can't clap with one hand now can we?

Originally posted by Ysharros

My opinion column has nothing to do with this site, nor did I read the forums before I wrote it. (My days of obsessive forum-reading are long, long gone.)

And that's just the point: there are quite a few of us who would *like* to be frothing about SWTOR but aren't, and those opinions are formed just as yours are: from what we've read and what we've seen. Not being as excited about it as you doesn't make what our concerns less valid.

Why would you like to be frothing about it? You want to be over hyped? That just makes no sense to me what so ever. It's a game, you either have an interest in it or you don't. Neither is a news worthy topic...

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Originally posted by Chilliesauce

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Originally posted by lizardbones
I'm feeling pretty 'meh' about the game as well. I expect they'll do a really good job with the game, but I'm thinking I'm going to hit the "end game" and it will be the usual raid/gear grind. I suppose I could be pleasantly surprised, but I don't really think so.

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What is the other alternative for end game then? PVP? re rolling alts? because no matter what activity you choose in the end everything becomes grind. I have played MMOS which has nothing to do at end game and players complain about it. FE is a perfect example.
So in my opinion in case of end game..damned if you do it..damned if you do not.

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@Distopia - which is why I write an opinion column, not a news one ;) It's what they pay me for.

I'm ambivalent. Yeah, to some extent I would want to be frothing about it, because anticipating game releases is part of the fun in the MMO community. I frothed quietly to myself about the latest Dresden book release (and promptly devoured it in a few hours *burp*). I don't much froth about movies these days, but the point to me is that it doesn't come down to just interest/no interest. There are degrees of interest and I'd like to be more excited about SWTOR than I am.

That said, since it is pure opinion, you're perfectly entitled to your own - as long as I get to have mine. :D

Originally posted by Ysharros

My opinion column has nothing to do with this site, nor did I read the forums before I wrote it. (My days of obsessive forum-reading are long, long gone.)

And that's just the point: there are quite a few of us who would *like* to be frothing about SWTOR but aren't, and those opinions are formed just as yours are: from what we've read and what we've seen. Not being as excited about it as you doesn't make what our concerns less valid.

I admit that my frustration has more to do with this site than what you wrote and I didn't mean it as a personal attack on you. My frustration is directed more to negativity towards any new game because of the bandwagon effect (or should I say the "acting like a 12 year old effect). I actually enjoyed the fact that you provided a well written article that didn't make my head swim just trying to get from its start to finish. This is becoming a rarity anymore even from major media outlets.

Originally posted by lizardbones

 

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Originally posted by Chilliesauce

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Originally posted by lizardbones
I'm feeling pretty 'meh' about the game as well. I expect they'll do a really good job with the game, but I'm thinking I'm going to hit the "end game" and it will be the usual raid/gear grind. I suppose I could be pleasantly surprised, but I don't really think so.

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What is the other alternative for end game then? PVP? re rolling alts? because no matter what activity you choose in the end everything becomes grind. I have played MMOS which has nothing to do at end game and players complain about it. FE is a perfect example.
So in my opinion in case of end game..damned if you do it..damned if you do not.

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I'm not saying Raid Grinding is bad because obviously a lot of people like it. I'm saying I don't and I think that SW:ToR is going to go in that direction so I'm not all that excited about it. It's possible they could pull off a Raid Grind end game that works and in addition to that they pull off a Warhammer style RvR PvP end game as well, but I don't think so.

They could come up with something else...but they've chosen to go with a 'Leveling' model of progression. That means there's going to be a max level and that there's going to be an end game. That means they're probably going to go with something that's a known quantity, and the one that is the most known quantity that keeps working is Raiding.

 

Like what? that is what i am trying to find out here. There is only so many ways you can form an end game so that players have something to do in terms of improving their character. Like is aid there are games with literally nothing to do or very little to do at end game and players are still not happy. Majority loves raiding and that is why it is going to be long time before you see it gone from MMO genre.

Originally posted by astoria

Originally posted by alancode

You read books, well imagine being inside a book..being that Hero character saving the day..or obliterating someones hopes or dreams, or even their planet. You watch movies? You will be IN the movie, taking every step in the movie and watching it unfold before your eyes. Your choices will matter to you and make your experience different than any other player. 

You will not only read, but hear people interact with you, through their own voice, who have emotion, fear, love, and hate. 

You can fight to destory the Sith Empire and save the Galaxy, or rid the Galaxy of the Republic and be in large fights with other players to defend or destory. 

It will make you feel like you there, a part of the universe. 

Thats why I wanna play. 

 

Screw their story. If I want to passively observe someone else's story I will watch a movie or read a book as you attempt to analogize. It is a failed analogy. In an Online Role Playing game, you should be able to make up stories with your friends or even PUGs. This might not make sense to some people that want only the shallow arcade improved-split screen experience, but this is where many of us that played PnP games are coming from. It doesn't have to be fully sandbox to allow RP, but scripted RP is scripted RP and a viable MMO needs more. The 1 or  2 choices that seem to be presented in this game may be an attempt but I'm concerned about the replayability. From what I can gather, once you go through the story once, you've gone through it.

 In any Online Roleplaying game, there's always a story in the world your character lives in. Wether or not you choose to acknowledge that story is entirely up to you. As an RPer I understand where your comming from- having a few choices for my character to make while progressing through a storyline feels limiting, but who's to say that you have to limit yourself to what happens in the game's stories? After all, once the cinematics are done and the story is told your still the one in control of your character, your free to make your own stories and RP however you want. 

Personally, as an RPer, I find having more options to my quest.. you say its scripted, but it gives your character more voice then to "accept" and "complete" the quests, which seems to be the norm in most MMORPGs (in my experience anyway). It always kinda bugged me that quest givers just assume your character is a hero trying to do the right thing. But that is where the imagination of the RPer has always excelled. We don't let the game's story restrict us, I know I've RP'd the villain when most of my game's quests would have me believe I was some sort of angelic hero.

Originally posted by astoria

 

Screw their story. If I want to passively observe someone else's story I will watch a movie or read a book as you attempt to analogize. It is a failed analogy. In an Online Role Playing game, you should be able to make up stories with your friends or even PUGs. This might not make sense to some people that want only the shallow arcade improved-split screen experience, but this is where many of us that played PnP games are coming from. It doesn't have to be fully sandbox to allow RP, but scripted RP is scripted RP and a viable MMO needs more. The 1 or  2 choices that seem to be presented in this game may be an attempt but I'm concerned about the replayability. From what I can gather, once you go through the story once, you've gone through it.

Isn't this the same currently? When you have leveled your char to level cap, you've done the quests, the next time with another character, they'll be the same. So why bashing this game aspect on SWTOR, when the current quest leveling situation is even less than that?

This is the question that I rarely ever get an answer to from sandbox fan(boi)s or the burnt out MMO vet crowd, probably because they know they can only reply with a weak or flawed answer: what is so superior about the current quest based leveling situation, that what SWTOR is doing isn't an improvement of it?

What BW is doing is revamping the quest leveling and make it more enjoyable than the current situation, I find it puzzling to see that people wouldn't like that. I think it must be people who haven't been playing or enjoying themepark MMO's for a long while. Well, I have, LotrO and Rift recently, I embrace and encourage any change of the current quest leveling situation.

Originally posted by Ysharros

@Distopia - which is why I write an opinion column, not a news one ;) It's what they pay me for.

I'm ambivalent. Yeah, to some extent I would want to be frothing about it, because anticipating game releases is part of the fun in the MMO community. I frothed quietly to myself about the latest Dresden book release (and promptly devoured it in a few hours *burp*). I don't much froth about movies these days, but the point to me is that it doesn't come down to just interest/no interest. There are degrees of interest and I'd like to be more excited about SWTOR than I am.

That said, since it is pure opinion, you're perfectly entitled to your own - as long as I get to have mine. :D

Understandble, I guess the idea of wanting to be over-hyped seemed a little off to me, I do understand wanting there to be something you're excited about though, hey we always have TES IV:). Shameless plug I know :P...

Limited though character/storyline choices are always going to be in an MMO compared to PnP, simply because they have to be scripted (at least until we get Wintermute running our games :P) it's a good thing that BW is trying to give us more of them. Hopefully it *will* be possible to go through the story once in one way, and then again with an alt in a completely different way.

I just hope that works out in practice. Most really good MMO improvements tend to be incremental anyway, so this is a start - if it works.

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Originally posted by Chilliesauce

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Originally posted by lizardbones
 

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Originally posted by Chilliesauce

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Originally posted by lizardbones
I'm feeling pretty 'meh' about the game as well. I expect they'll do a really good job with the game, but I'm thinking I'm going to hit the "end game" and it will be the usual raid/gear grind. I suppose I could be pleasantly surprised, but I don't really think so.

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What is the other alternative for end game then? PVP? re rolling alts? because no matter what activity you choose in the end everything becomes grind. I have played MMOS which has nothing to do at end game and players complain about it. FE is a perfect example.
So in my opinion in case of end game..damned if you do it..damned if you do not.

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I'm not saying Raid Grinding is bad because obviously a lot of people like it. I'm saying I don't and I think that SW:ToR is going to go in that direction so I'm not all that excited about it. It's possible they could pull off a Raid Grind end game that works and in addition to that they pull off a Warhammer style RvR PvP end game as well, but I don't think so.

They could come up with something else...but they've chosen to go with a 'Leveling' model of progression. That means there's going to be a max level and that there's going to be an end game. That means they're probably going to go with something that's a known quantity, and the one that is the most known quantity that keeps working is Raiding.

 

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Like what? that is what i am trying to find out here. There is only so many ways you can form an end game so that players have something to do in terms of improving their character. Like is aid there are games with literally nothing to do or very little to do at end game and players are still not happy. Majority loves raiding and that is why it is going to be long time before you see it gone from MMO genre.

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This is why I'm bummed about SWTOR:

I was born during the release of the original Star Wars: A New Hope. Thus, I was raised within this precedented sci-fi realm. It's something that you just don't grow out of.

HOWEVER, this doesn't mean that I haven't mentally evolved with the genre. I'm older. Pure simplicity doesn't sustain my interest. I yearn for a certain degree of depth and complexity. SWTOR doesn't seem to offer that. It seems to be more geared toward the new blood of Star Wars - those who grew up with Episode 1, 2, and 3 (the young).

I'm not asking for SWG 2.0. I do, however, wish that the game contained some on-the-side forms of social-sandbox elements, e.g., planets spefically made for housing, cities, player shops, incentive to hangout in the cantinas, etc.

The game, in my opinion, would be a sure win had it contained the perfect blend of Sand Box and Theme Park elements.

This was me during the Empire Strikes Back Days (look at the couch!):

Originally posted by astoria

Screw their story. If I want to passively observe someone else's story I will watch a movie or read a book as you attempt to analogize. It is a failed analogy. In an Online Role Playing game, you should be able to make up stories with your friends or even PUGs. This might not make sense to some people that want only the shallow arcade improved-split screen experience, but this is where many of us that played PnP games are coming from. It doesn't have to be fully sandbox to allow RP, but scripted RP is scripted RP and a viable MMO needs more. The 1 or  2 choices that seem to be presented in this game may be an attempt but I'm concerned about the replayability. From what I can gather, once you go through the story once, you've gone through it.

I haven't played a single MMO which does not have a story or lore. Only difference is that SWTOR story si more interactive. As far as players makign their own story well i have played Sandbox too and players are incapable of coming up with interesting stories. Unless PKing and looting other players is considered to be a good story.

I can understand the author's "Meh" attitude about the game... I have been  "meh" about it myself despite having every intention of playing the game. I think that playing MMos as long as I have (started with DAoC, been playing them on and off ever since) you begin to realize that hype is the worst thing you can have. Not only does it make the wait for your target game excrutiating, but it sets the bar high because you pump yourself up with expectations. Everytime I let the hype of a game carry me along I end up disappointed, so with ToR I've just remained a little impartial. I'm a big star wars fan but I won't ruin it for myself by putting it on a pedestal and making all sorts of crazy expectations for it.. I'll just wait for it to come to me..  then play it. I'm sure I'll enjoy the story at least, as for the rest of the game, I can only hope it is fun and exciting enough to keep my attention. Lord knows I've barely lasted a month or two playing any other MMO before I started to get bored. 

Originally posted by Ysharros

 

I just hope that works out in practice. Most really good MMO improvements tend to be incremental anyway, so this is a start - if it works.

I think this is something many gamers overlook they seem to expect large strides in innovation, when that doesn't even happen in the less risky or expensive single player realm. Baby steps are just safer, when you're banking other peoples money on a game, you can't be careless, you have to think in a practicle manner.

Originally posted by lizardbones

 

It doesn't matter what else they could come up with. What they did come up with looks like it's going to be raiding. I'm tired of it.

But since you asked, 'What else?', how about Warhammer style RvR. How about at the end of the storyline, you participate in a free form effort to stop the empire without Raiding in a sandbox style end game? What difference does it make? Bioware didn't choose either of those options or anything else...they (probably) went with a raid grind. Which again, I'm not excited about. Kicking people in the crotch as a smuggler is only going to carry the game so far.

 

I guess my argument there would be that those features are population dependant.  What happens if one server has 70% or more of 1 side?  The other side gets rolled, and begins to fade away.  A 3rd faction could fix this, but that would demand adding another 3rd onto the game, adding, prehaps another 2-3 years of development because of class design and story.  

It would work in a small passionate niche community, not something mainstream, since mainstream internet people, arent exactly the happy, cooperative types.

Originally posted by lizardbones

 

It doesn't matter what else they could come up with. What they did come up with looks like it's going to be raiding. I'm tired of it.

But since you asked, 'What else?', how about Warhammer style RvR. How about at the end of the storyline, you participate in a free form effort to stop the empire without Raiding in a sandbox style end game? What difference does it make? Bioware didn't choose either of those options or anything else...they (probably) went with a raid grind. Which again, I'm not excited about. Kicking people in the crotch as a smuggler is only going to carry the game so far.

 

Well it does matetr because if i critque something and believe that things could be done in better way i would explain my reasoning. A lot of players want something other than raiding but somehow are never clear on what is that 'other' thing.

As far as end game 'sanbox" style. This is not a sandbox game and raiding is bread and butter for themepark MMOS. As far as RVR is concerned i mentioned it in my previous post. What else are you looking for in end game? pvp., re rolling alts? there is only so much to do.  As far as RVR is concerned this option is not totally out of window as Bioware mentioned several times in past that they love RVR and would love to incorporate it in SWTOR. However, i would like to mention here that RVR in WAR is also a very painful gear grind.