Speaking as an OG Ultima Online PKer, full loot is all about griefing. It's feeling good that not only did you take something away from someone else, but you took everything, and all of their hard work to get items just paid off for you becuase you're better than they are. Then they rage and the ensueing fireworks of emotion are pretty entertaining. It's the same reason douche bags talk shit in any FPS/RTS when you're clearly outmatched by their skill. They're already on top, but they feel like they need to prove something, and they can only be satisfied when you're frothing at the mouth and punching your cat.

Of course, I was a teenage asshole then, and I've grown up and moved on from the idea that taking someone elses things and then talking shit makes me cool. I've got other tangible things in my life that validate my existence, I don't need to do that anymore.  Really the only people who enjoy or advocate these full loot systems now are people who have the skills to win any PvP fight, and just want to take your stuff.

I leave those kinds of games to the youngin's out there who can compete, and I'll stick to MMOs that let me keep my things when I inevitably die. :)

Originally posted by rygard49

Speaking as an OG Ultima Online PKer, full loot is all about griefing. It's feeling good that not only did you take something away from someone else, but you took everything, and all of their hard work to get items just paid off for you becuase you're better than they are. Then they rage and the ensueing fireworks of emotion are pretty entertaining. It's the same reason douche bags talk shit in any FPS/RTS when you're clearly outmatched by their skill. They're already on top, but they feel like they need to prove something, and they can only be satisfied when you're frothing at the mouth and punching your cat.

Of course, I was a teenage asshole then, and I've grown up and moved on from the idea that taking someone elses things and then talking shit makes me cool. I've got other tangible things in my life that validate my existence, I don't need to do that anymore.  Really the only people who enjoy or advocate these full loot systems now are people who have the skills to win any PvP fight, and just want to take your stuff.

I leave those kinds of games to the youngin's out there who can compete, and I'll stick to MMOs that let me keep my things when I inevitably die. :)

See, I just don't think this is true.. as stated previously, I don't personally seek out PVP - the social aspect of banding together for safety that it pushes people toward is what I enjoy.

I don't doubt some people fit this mold, but it's definitely not "all about" griefing, for everyone.

Edited to add - I also enjoy player-created towns, for their social aspect. But that's about as popular with developers as FFA full-loot PVP these days. :P

Originally posted by Vryheid

 

---

Originally posted by Brenelael
First off you have to get out of the mindset that gear is supposed to make you better. In a FFA PVP w/full loot game this isn't the case. It's not the sword that makes a player great it's the hand that wields it. In most full loot games there are no '+10 Swords of Ultimate Uberness' or anything like that... a sword is just a sword. It's the player's skill combined with the character's abilities that define them. Now this doesn't mean that there isn't better gear but the bonuses for better gear are much smaller than in a gear centric game. The difference between an Iron Sword and a Steel Sword are not that much.
 
What this means is loosing your gear isn't nearly the loss you might think it is as you can get more gear and be up and running again in a matter of 10-15 minutes if you play smart. What they can't loot are the most important factors in the game and what you strive to make better... Your character's abilities and your skill at playing him/her.
 
Bren

---

 

This is exactly why full-body looting makes for bland and repetitive PvP. Rare and valuable items either don't exist or end up never getting used, and whatever gear you manage to loot from opponents is likely to be not much different than the same low-end armor you're already wearing. Crafting becomes a tedious chore, as you end up creating the same gear over and over rather than gradually aiming for a masterpiece that will give a player a serious advantage in PvP. The only real system of progression for playing these kinds of games are agonizing skill growth setups that reward players with a slow stat climb simply for doing the same combat tasks for hours on end.

In real life the guy who invested the time and money to arm themselves with an assault rifle will have a large advantage in combat over the person who comes in with a handful of rocks. Now it may just happen that the opponent may be incredibly skilled at throwing rocks, and thus win anyways... but there has to be a balance between the two, good gear should be able to make up for lower player levels AND vice versa. Saying that "a weapon is just a weapon" in this situation is just ridiculous.

dude, Vryheid, your whole reply is... sorry to say it... but ... its wrong, yes, the whole thing...

"Rare and valuable items either don't exist or end up never getting used"

yes they do exist and yes they do get used. the only difference is that not everyone has the skill and knowledge to use it, thus it will get looted over and over again until the right person uses it smartly or has the optimal skills made for that specific item. People use rare and expensive items more than you would think, 

"and whatever gear you manage to loot from opponents is likely to be not much different than the same lo-end armor you're already wearing"

then stop looting newbbies, go into the guild fights or territory control fights, large alliance fights, if you live, you will probably have a few more rare items or items that are better than what you have. 

"Crafting becomes a tedious chore, as you end up creating the same gear over and over rather than gradually aiming for a masterpiece that will give a player a serious advantage in PvP"

Crafting becomes such an art that in a Full loot pvp player run economy, some people CHOOSE to become dedicated crafters (by dedicated i mean its their only profession) it becomes an art to pick the right materials, the right quality, whooly hide over scaly hides, then you have experimentation on your crafting, how many points will you spend on which attributes for that specific sword, you want to make it light weight? (fast and weak) or High damage? (heavy and slower), and that will depend on your customer's profession template, does he have skills in heavy armor and act like a barbarian, or does he prefer a ninja stlye algility and presision... so now you have so many specifics on EACH crafting sessions. weather you have a specific order to fill or you are making generic swords for the market bazaar. or hell, you might even end up with the right combination with a rare high quality metal that has a very long spawn rate (months)  for miners and you got yourself a few of them in your posession that you can slightly increase the damage otuput all while keeping the same speed. no crafting does not become a tedious chore, it becomes an art.

"The only real system of progression for playing these kinds of games are agonizing skill growth setups that reward players with a slow stat climb simply for doing the same combat tasks for hours on end."

the way these games are made, is that you dont need to level cap to do anything worthwhile. thus at low levels WHILE you are grinding your stats, you actually PLAY the game, and not GRIND the game till level cap. you access the same content as the people who have been playing for much longer, you play it less effectively and you are not as strong, but you still take part in the hunt.by experience i can tell you than in these classless skill point stat increasing games, i forget that i am grinding and when i reach mastery i always say "oh already? look at that!!! lets go try out that new sword ive been saving".

as for your analogy, 

give me a rifle and give you a bunch of rocks i would be sure you would win, as i have never even held a rifle in my life i would not know how to remove the safety. now lets compare something with more relevance

lets do a sword duel, an expert swordsman versus you.

lets make things fair, lets give the expert swordsman a wooden sword and give you that nice light weight, platinum, perfectly balanced, confortable leather grip sword.

i would still put my bets on that expert swordsman. 

the same way works in these MMO genres. a master pistoleer will own a novice pistoleer even if the novice is using a far superior weapon. your SKILLS and your SKILL TEMPLATE is your "gear" and those can't be looted. 

In your ideal world there may be a game where crafting is an "art", but there is NO example of a full loot PvP MMO currently on the market where crafting fills nearly that kind of potential. If there really were any modern full-loot PvP MMOs with "player run economies" that weren't crippled by a poor combat system or self destructive playerbase, they would easily be in the same league as WoW as one of the most popular MMOs on the market today. In reality, there is a reason why full loot games are not remotely as popular as the limited loot systems used by other MMOs- it's incredibly easy to game the system. The games either end up predatory, where a few players with godly gear make it nigh impossible for the vast majority of players to progress, or a situation where extremely well-geared players are simply lucrative targets for mobs of lowbies that easily kill them off and sell that gear to the nearest vendor at the first opportunity.

Originally posted by Vryheid

In your ideal world there may be a game where crafting is an "art", but there is NO example of a full loot PvP MMO currently on the market where crafting fills nearly that kind of potential. If there really were any modern full-loot PvP MMOs with "player run economies" that weren't crippled by a poor combat system or self destructive playerbase, they would easily be in the same league as WoW as one of the most popular MMOs on the market today. In reality, there is a reason why full loot games are not remotely as popular as the limited loot systems used by other MMOs- it's incredibly easy to game the system. The games either end up predatory, where a few players with godly gear make it nigh impossible for the vast majority of players to progress, or a situation where extremely well-geared players are simply lucrative targets for mobs of lowbies that easily kill them off and sell that gear to the nearest vendor at the first opportunity.

I won't argue that it's a perfect game and it may qualify as a "poor" combat system - but Haven & Hearth revolves about 75% around crafting of various kinds, and it has full loot, FFA PVP, and character permadeath. There is no NPC economy (nor, admittedly, currency) - barter happens directly between players.

That said, it's an obviously Indie game, but better developed than I had expected once I got a few hours into it.

Wurm Online is similar, but a lot grindier, and combat is worse (IMO).

It would be miraculous if such a game existed with the polish and feel of WoW...

Edit for random comment - one interesting thing about Haven and Hearth is there is a 2-step "kill" process. First, you knock out another player, and then you must continue to beat on their incapacitated body to "murder" them. Interestingly it seems this mechanic actually makes the playerbase less vicious - the attackers can get their yayas by chasing someone down, outbattling them, and beating them into submission, then leave them to recover consciousness a few minutes later. This doesn't deter the hardened griefer, but does seem to satisfy PVPers who are just in it for the "sport".

Risk versus Reward.

When I engage someone in pvp in a full loot game my adrenaline levels start rising sharply. Nothing can come close to it in other games, absolutely nothing.

If I lose, everything I am carrying is gone. (of course I will have multiple sets of the best I can get stashed away in the bank, or in my house)

If I win, I score big and take back a sizeable chunk of loot and a rush plenty higher than pwning a boss for the 30th time or scoring a flag in warsong gulch.

Those who don't like it either don't understand it, can't pvp well enough and constantly die, or are the ones who opt out of the scarriest rollercoasters or horror movies.

Originally posted by Vryheid

In your ideal world there may be a game where crafting is an "art", but there is NO example of a full loot PvP MMO currently on the market where crafting fills nearly that kind of potential. If there really were any modern full-loot PvP MMOs with "player run economies" that weren't crippled by a poor combat system or self destructive playerbase, they would easily be in the same league as WoW as one of the most popular MMOs on the market today. In reality, there is a reason why full loot games are not remotely as popular as the limited loot systems used by other MMOs- it's incredibly easy to game the system. The games either end up predatory, where a few players with godly gear make it nigh impossible for the vast majority of players to progress, or a situation where extremely well-geared players are simply lucrative targets for mobs of lowbies that easily kill them off and sell that gear to the nearest vendor at the first opportunity.

EVE Online, UO, Puzzle Pirates.

You're thinking in terms of gear-centric games. Games where loot drops on death aren't all about teh epix.

"I could come up with a better list of abilities in a weekend than ANY of the class setups used by Final Fantasy XIV used when it was first released. I could do a better job balancing games like Black Prophecy and Faxion in a matter of weeks than it took their team months to accomplish. I have to assume that these teams are either deliberately wasting time or are coming into the video game industry as complete newcomers" -  Vryheid

Just saw that gem in the other thread and it gave me a better understnading of your posts in this one.

Originally posted by Enerzeal

Risk versus Reward.

When I engage someone in pvp in a full loot game my adrenaline levels start rising sharply. Nothing can come close to it in other games, absolutely nothing.

If I lose, everything I am carrying is gone. (of course I will have multiple sets of the best I can get stashed away in the bank, or in my house)

If I win, I score big and take back a sizeable chunk of loot and a rush plenty higher than pwning a boss for the 30th time or scoring a flag in warsong gulch.

Those who don't like it either don't understand it, can't pvp well enough and constantly die, or are the ones who opt out of the scarriest rollercoasters or horror movies.

Yeah, it works just like that in theory.

The problem is that in reality all too often is either you or your opponent so underpowered to the other so that the risk is close to zero that the weaker player win. The risk is that someone even more powerful jumps you instead.

Risk Vs reward works excellent in a FPS game where all players have equal and balanced stats but in MMOs some people usually have played for years while others have not.

That means that there is close to no reward for new players and that 95% of them quit becuase of it, not a good business model for any company that actually plans to earn some money.

I am not really against full loot as such but I just don't think it works in a RPG game. As soon as the character gains power by playing it is either about who played longest or just plain zerging. 

Killing someone in PvP that have no chance against me actually don't make me feel good or anything at all. Every single great PvP moment of my career is against someone that have an at least equal chance or better, that gets my adrenaline flowing.

The whole idea that anyone who doesn't agree with you plays badly is just rubbish.

True PvP is a duel between equals and running from stronger while beating weaker opponents to get gear just isn't close to that. 

This is the reason why full looting doesn't work with MMORPGs. It is also the reason that PvP is so popular in FPS games but not as popular in MMOs.

What games do you FFA/Full loot PvP advocates play? I was under the impression, that aside from Eve, there were no MMO's like that, that have a decent amount of players. I'm all down for PvP, I've just never touched anything with full looting, aside from Eve (not my cup of tea though, not too much into the whole Sci-Fi thing, at least in a MMO).

I was considering grabbing the DFO 14 day trial, but (and again, I could be misinformed, as I don't generally keep up with this stuff), I heard the community was next to crap. Community is my #1 thing personally. You can have the greatest stories, combat, quests, dungeons, etc, but it won't mean squat to me without a decent community.

I'm just looking to get a first hand look at what all you say is so much fun and enjoyable, and experience it for myself.

Originally posted by Zolgar

What games do you FFA/Full loot PvP advocates play? I was under the impression, that aside from Eve, there were no MMO's like that, that have a decent amount of players. I'm all down for PvP, I've just never touched anything with full looting, aside from Eve (not my cup of tea though, not too much into the whole Sci-Fi thing, at least in a MMO).

 

I was considering grabbing the DFO 14 day trial, but (and again, I could be misinformed, as I don't generally keep up with this stuff), I heard the community was next to crap. Community is my #1 thing personally. You can have the greatest stories, combat, quests, dungeons, etc, but it won't mean squat to me without a decent community.

 

I'm just looking to get a first hand look at what all you say is so much fun and enjoyable, and experience it for myself.

There aren't many of these games available right now. DFO and EVE are probably the best for what they offer, and the communities in both are pretty terrible. The problem with DFO in particular is a lack of anything but PvP to do, so there's really no reason for PvE'ers or more casual gamers to enter the world and stick around. I believe most of us when speaking upon this subject are thinking back to Ultima Online or the old SWG, or at least I am, and you simply can't find that experience in the MMO market right now (T2A's been dead for about twelve years).

None the less, if you can find people you enjoy playing with in DFO, which certainly isn't impossible, it can offer you much of what is enjoyable and exciting in a full loot, FFA PvP game. The trick is finding the right people.

Full Loot PVP is a great concept if the game is not SO heavy based on Gear. Also the amount of time to get a decent gear can't be too much, otherwise people will end up using shit gear all the time.  (try playing tibia and you'll understand)

The Appeal is the fact that if you die you'll lose something. Dying is a real pain.  It adds alot to the combat, sometimes you just dont want to lose that cool sword you got or the great armor you just bought from a crafter.  So you ge tense and those emotions adds a lot in the gameplay factor.  It's not for everyone, really.  

If you start thinking about losing your gear in a WoW Like mindset, you'll freak out, Imagine you losing your uber gear that you farmed  x weeks to get. hehe makes no sense, but in Mortal for exemple, you can get a good gear for a couple of golds from crafters. You'll lose but not too much and if you win a battle, you win more than just the satisfaction of the victory, you can also loot your enemy , and thats AWSOME. 

Originally posted by Brenelael

Originally posted by Vryheid

 

---

Originally posted by Brenelael
First off you have to get out of the mindset that gear is supposed to make you better. In a FFA PVP w/full loot game this isn't the case. It's not the sword that makes a player great it's the hand that wields it. In most full loot games there are no '+10 Swords of Ultimate Uberness' or anything like that... a sword is just a sword. It's the player's skill combined with the character's abilities that define them. Now this doesn't mean that there isn't better gear but the bonuses for better gear are much smaller than in a gear centric game. The difference between an Iron Sword and a Steel Sword are not that much.
 
What this means is loosing your gear isn't nearly the loss you might think it is as you can get more gear and be up and running again in a matter of 10-15 minutes if you play smart. What they can't loot are the most important factors in the game and what you strive to make better... Your character's abilities and your skill at playing him/her.
 
Bren

---

 

This is exactly why full-body looting makes for bland and repetitive PvP. Rare and valuable items either don't exist or end up never getting used, and whatever gear you manage to loot from opponents is likely to be not much different than the same low-end armor you're already wearing. Crafting becomes a tedious chore, as you end up creating the same gear over and over rather than gradually aiming for a masterpiece that will give a player a serious advantage in PvP. The only real system of progression for playing these kinds of games are agonizing skill growth setups that reward players with a slow stat climb simply for doing the same combat tasks for hours on end.

In real life the guy who invested the time and money to arm themselves with an assault rifle will have a large advantage in combat over the person who comes in with a handful of rocks. Now it may just happen that the opponent may be incredibly skilled at throwing rocks, and thus win anyways... but there has to be a balance between the two, good gear should be able to make up for lower player levels AND vice versa. Saying that "a weapon is just a weapon" in this situation is just ridiculous.

What is ridiculous is your stawman argument. A rock vs a gun does not in any way equal sword vs sword, sword vs. mace, mace vs staff or any other medieval weapon combination. Next time try to argue my points instead of making up your own ridiculously blown out of proportion ones.

 

Bren

Sorry but he's right.

He's refering to the fact that one player may have been out gathering to craft, and has bags full of valuable materials.  The other player simply has ganking gear.  The advantage goes to the ganker here, and he has much less to lose.

It's not just about losing your sword.

It is more challenging, but it's also more time consuming.  It also depends on the game world as to whether it's worth having that extra spice full loot adds to the gameplay.  If it's a game rampant with zergs and higher level players slaughtering solo players and lower level players with no way for the lower levels and solo players to run or fight back effectively then it's not worth it.  It's also not worth it if there is no safe place to stash your valuables or if doing so is just too time consuming.

I don't think full loot pvp is a bad mechanic, I just haven't found a game that fits it well enough yet.

Originally posted by lthompson94

Originally posted by Brenelael

Originally posted by Vryheid

 

---

Originally posted by Brenelael
First off you have to get out of the mindset that gear is supposed to make you better. In a FFA PVP w/full loot game this isn't the case. It's not the sword that makes a player great it's the hand that wields it. In most full loot games there are no '+10 Swords of Ultimate Uberness' or anything like that... a sword is just a sword. It's the player's skill combined with the character's abilities that define them. Now this doesn't mean that there isn't better gear but the bonuses for better gear are much smaller than in a gear centric game. The difference between an Iron Sword and a Steel Sword are not that much.
 
What this means is loosing your gear isn't nearly the loss you might think it is as you can get more gear and be up and running again in a matter of 10-15 minutes if you play smart. What they can't loot are the most important factors in the game and what you strive to make better... Your character's abilities and your skill at playing him/her.
 
Bren

---

 

This is exactly why full-body looting makes for bland and repetitive PvP. Rare and valuable items either don't exist or end up never getting used, and whatever gear you manage to loot from opponents is likely to be not much different than the same low-end armor you're already wearing. Crafting becomes a tedious chore, as you end up creating the same gear over and over rather than gradually aiming for a masterpiece that will give a player a serious advantage in PvP. The only real system of progression for playing these kinds of games are agonizing skill growth setups that reward players with a slow stat climb simply for doing the same combat tasks for hours on end.

In real life the guy who invested the time and money to arm themselves with an assault rifle will have a large advantage in combat over the person who comes in with a handful of rocks. Now it may just happen that the opponent may be incredibly skilled at throwing rocks, and thus win anyways... but there has to be a balance between the two, good gear should be able to make up for lower player levels AND vice versa. Saying that "a weapon is just a weapon" in this situation is just ridiculous.

What is ridiculous is your stawman argument. A rock vs a gun does not in any way equal sword vs sword, sword vs. mace, mace vs staff or any other medieval weapon combination. Next time try to argue my points instead of making up your own ridiculously blown out of proportion ones.

 

Bren

Sorry but he's right.

He's refering to the fact that one player may have been out gathering to craft, and has bags full of valuable materials.  The other player simply has ganking gear.  The advantage goes to the ganker here, and he has much less to lose.

It's not just about losing your sword.

Normal Joe with assault rifle VS (David v Goliath)-skilled Rock tosser, both range users, pretty even match up.

Full loot PvP brings out more emotions, and gives death a meaning.

I see it like this... What's the point of doing a PvP instance (lets say in WoW) over and over, when I know exactly what the outcome is going to be (reward), and where there is no element of surprise. I don't see any fun in it, sure lets say you fight hard and win the battle, nice you get some honour points, but if you lose it doesn't matter, infact it's good! You still get a few points, you don't care too much.

This simply translates to time/money = satisfaction (a very predictable, linear formula). You know what else follows this formula? Drugs. You spend your time and money, get the reward, and gain satisfaction in exchange for health/social problems. The new generation of MMOs follows a similar formula. Enough about that, that's a whole new ballgame.

Did I also mention that when I kill somebody I want to know I've caused an impact. When we roam in EVE, and say blow up 2 billion ISK (nearly $100 worth) worth of a spaceship, I love watching all that other assholes money just going BOOM! In one big, fiery explosion. It gives me something to laugh about, it gives me events to remember, and all these great kills, (and great losses) bring you so close to your CORP mates, because you're going through all this together.

Not to mention that people are much more careful in a full loot environment, people don't just start an encounter they may lose for the shits and lulz, because they're gonna lose shit.

In a full loot PvP game, heading into battle / looking for a fight / having a fight with your friends by your side have been the best gaming experiences I've had. No themepark MMO, which has been created purely to milk cash from people who just love wasting their time to get pointless little pixel rewards can bring me memorable events like that of a full loot sandbox.

I like the adrenalin of risking my pixels in order to gain somebody elses. One day I might lose gold/ISK, and one day I might gain. But I will always try my best to win my fights, so I can afford to fight another day without having to grind or borrow money to get back on the battlefield.

Peace!

Originally posted by Adam1902

Full loot PvP brings out more emotions, and gives death a meaning.

 this. it gets you more emotionally involved in the game and in the outcome.

edit: if there's a 200man enemy fleet 5 jumps away, a 250man fleet waiting on the titan to jump on top of them and all of a sudden instead of opening a bridge the titan jumps into the enemy fleet...YOU SHOULD BE AFRAID AND HORRIFIED.

Originally posted by Robokapp

Originally posted by Adam1902

Full loot PvP brings out more emotions, and gives death a meaning.

 this. it gets you more emotionally involved in the game and in the outcome.

Okay, so bring on the permadeath pvp game then.  Now that will bring out some emotion and death in game will definintely mean something.

permadeath doesnt mean character deletion, you know that right? permadeath means loss of body and currently equipped physical posessions.

most people dont understand permadeath. in eve you perma-die. except your "spirit" get cloned into another body. the old one? dead for ever. your existence however doesnt end with your body.

reincarnation? aferlife? its fanasy / scifi afterall in mmo's.

EVE Online has permadeath. players can even collect the corpses of their enemies. those corpses stay dead for all eternity. death is permanent.

in fact while alive you arrange your next clone. you literarly while alive do preparations for what will happen to you after you die.

Originally posted by Robokapp

most people dont understand permadeath. in eve you perma-die. except your "spirit" get cloned into another body. the old one? dead for ever. your existence however doesnt end with your body.

That's not permadeath. If you reincarnate into another body, or have a descendant, or whatever, DEATH ISN'T PERMANENT.

Perma-death is exactly that. Gone. Dead. Ceased to be. Pining for the fjords. Etc. You immediately lose that character and everything they own forever, no spirit reincarnation, no anything. You lose total access to that character and have no choice but deletion.

Originally posted by Lidane

Originally posted by Robokapp

most people dont understand permadeath. in eve you perma-die. except your "spirit" get cloned into another body. the old one? dead for ever. your existence however doesnt end with your body.

That's not permadeath. If you reincarnate into another body, or have a descendant, or whatever, DEATH ISN'T PERMANENT.

Perma-death is exactly that. Gone. Dead. Ceased to be. Pining for the fjords. Etc. You immediately lose that character and everything they own forever, no spirit reincarnation, no anything. You lose total access to that character and have no choice but deletion.

 no. 'death' refers to the body.

the spirit is immortal.

it's a premise of most if not all mmo's. permadeath only means the body is lost for ever.

I'm not sure where you get your definitions from but i dont think there are any games that follow what you think permadeath is.

------------

in WoW the body dies, then returns to life upon merging with the spirit. that's temporary death.

in EVE the body dies, then stays dead for ever. that's permanent death.

the spirit however is immune to death and eternal. in both.