Originally posted by Distopia

Well there's a difference between religion and entertainment, which is why I didn't take that seriously.

As for your actual replies, sure fables have been used as childrens stories for ages, though there's a difference between fables and Movies. Fables are ingrained in a lot of things, from books to schooling. I'm finding your reply to be pretty pretentious though, as you seemed to be answering to be a smartass, rather than actually think about the question.

I didn't say it is the only IP to break generation gaps, I said it's one of very few that have. Disney is the only reply in here that remotely answers the question I asked. If you don't want to answer a question seriously why bother answering at all?

... and I'm saying that Star Wars is so young as an IP, that it's weird to think of it as bridging generation gaps, when if you look at the fans of it, the vast majority falls within a relatively tiny timespan.

... and religion can be entertainment.  I mean, have you ever read the Bible?  There is some hilarious stuff in there!  Random children being mauled by she-bears for insulting bald men.  That's just awesome.

... obviously I just have a much more open concept of what an entertainment ip consists of, I guess.  I don't see how fables don't count as entertainment IPs, and it's like you've never watched the billion and one Grimm's Fairy tales movies out there.  From live action to animated.

... but that's why I gave a sort of shotgun answer, so you could find the level at which you wish to engage and which you're willing to accept a defition.  At least you included Disney.

I guess if you define things really narrowly, it's a lot easier to say 'This is the #1 in the really narrow definition I'm using'.

Originally posted by Derebus

Originally posted by Kaerigan

Well I'm a kind of Star Trek and Stargate kind of guy, really. Those IPs are pretty big, aren't they? At least I think they are... Whatever happened to Stargate Online, anyway?

And I think a bible-inspired MMO could be awesome. Quests could include collecting foreskins, killing giants with small stones, pillaging villages and raping their populations, getting your very own slave companion and maybe running into Jesus himself in a storyline quest, LOTRO style.

I'm going to assume that you are high..

Oh, I wish. Just trying (and failing) to being funny. A bible-based MMO would have to be adult only anyway in order to be accurate, and lots of stores don't sell those so it would fail pretty hard.

Originally posted by Kaerigan

Originally posted by Derebus

Originally posted by Kaerigan

Well I'm a kind of Star Trek and Stargate kind of guy, really. Those IPs are pretty big, aren't they? At least I think they are... Whatever happened to Stargate Online, anyway?

And I think a bible-inspired MMO could be awesome. Quests could include collecting foreskins, killing giants with small stones, pillaging villages and raping their populations, getting your very own slave companion and maybe running into Jesus himself in a storyline quest, LOTRO style.

I'm going to assume that you are high..

Oh, I wish. Just trying (and failing) to being funny. A bible-based MMO would have to be adult only anyway in order to be accurate, and lots of stores don't sell those so it would fail pretty hard.

I think these people really don't understand just how freaking EPIC and bloodily violent the Bible is.  Sure, okay, most of the New Testament is a lot more tame, but the violence and weird sex in the Bible is way over the top at times.

Fun and utterly useless trivia - The Japanese word often used for masturbation 'Onani' comes from Onan, who died in the Bible because... well, I guess people should look it up since I don't want to be banned for lowering the tone of the discussion.

It's like people get so hung up on the religious aspect of the Bible they can't look at it as writing.  :/

Originally posted by Divion

Originally posted by Meowhead

Originally posted by Distopia

I'll ignore the Bible comment, I can't take that seriously.  Lets just cut to the chase though, name one IP that has done as well generationally?  I can't think of many, maybe The Wizard of OZ or tales of Kind Arthur.  Very few IP's carry such weight over generation gaps like Star Wars has, very few even attempt to.

The fact that you don't see the immense weight that the Bible has had culturally, especially in Western civilization is kind of weird to me.

It has literally altered the way vast majorities of the population think.  ... and if you don't think it's part of the entertainment industry, just look at all the movies, cartoons and books based off of it.  You can even see echoes of it in other things, like the Matrix.  It's just a real culture changer, and has put its roots so deep you apparently can't even see it.  The only thing I can think of that even approaches it in western culture would be the Greeks and everything they added.

Also, Star Wars hasn't even been around as long as I have, so comparing it to The Wizard of Oz or ESPECIALLY the tales of King Arthur seems bizarre to me.

How about the works of Shakespeare?  Just look at all the spinoffs of that.  Just the various variations of Romeo and Juliet alone would probably earn at least as much money as the Star Wars movies.  It's another worldwide, culture changing phenomenon.  So far as we know, 50 years from now people will be 'Star Wars what?  Oh yeah.  That fad, back when people had no taste.  COuld you believe people back then?  They still wore PANTS.  Old people so crazy.'

Star Wars is big in pop culture, but it's a relatively modern phenomenon that has benefitted from current entertainment mediums and the concept of the spinoff.  These older series and books have much deeper, richer roots in our culture.

Other stories you say?  How about the stories of Hans Christian Anderson?  Or the brother Grimm?  Aesop's fables?  Look at all the spinoffs from those.  Or hey, since we're talking about spinoff stories, what about Disney as an IP juggernaut?  Mickey Mouse is a monster. D:  ... and far more culturally acceptable to wear on your T-shirt as an adult than Princess Leia.

Most of those examples you provided made me chuckle…

 

Yes.. aside from being forced into learning Shakespeare in high-school, I doubt most of us are “fans”, and I further doubt there are monetary values to assign to it, that would impress.

 

Shakespeare is not an IP neither, well I’m not sure if you can IP his works, does Shakespeare have an estate that makes intellectual claims to his works? I have no idea, would be interesting to know, however Shakespeare is an author, not an IP, if you consider his works, something along the lines of Romeo and Juliet could be considered an IP, I suppose…. Or Hamlet, but not HIM.

 

That’s like saying George Lucas is an IP, he is not, Lucas Arts is a company, he is a person, Star Wars is his IP.

 

Allthough you did raise an interesting point as to Disney as an IP.

AGAIN, Disney was a person, his company was named as such – Now as an IP Mickey Mouse is conceptually an IP, but it doesn’t hold weight to Star Wars.

If you combined ALL of Disney’s hundreds (if not thousands of IPs) into 1 then yes it would be greater than Star Wars, but like I said, that’s if you mis-assume that Disney is 1 IP, when it’s hundreds, Mickey alone can not stand before the force.

 

Food for though, what kinda empire would you have if you had…

 

George Lucas + Gene Roddenberry + J.J. Abrams + Tolkien + J.K Rowling = ??

 

lolz

+ little known Phillip K. Dick.

Completed Films based on PKD stories

Blade Runner  (1982)
Based on "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?"

Screamers  (1995)
Based on "Second Variety"

Total Recall  (1990)
Based on "We Can Remember It For You Wholesale"

Confessions d'un Barjo  (French, 1992)
Based on "Confessions of a Crap Artist"

Impostor  (2001)
Based on "Impostor."

Minority Report  (2002)
Based on "The Minority Report."

Paycheck  (December 25, 2003)
Based on "Paycheck."

A Scanner Darkly  (July 7, 2006)
Based on "A Scanner Darkly"

Next (April 27, 2007)
Based on "The Golden Man"



Films in Production

The Adjustment Bureau  (coming 2010)
Based on "The Adjustment Team"

King of the Elves  (coming 2012)
Based on "King of the Elves"

And Total Recall is being Rebooted right now as we speak, with some major Hollywood hitters in it. (No Schwarzenegger this time though.)

Originally posted by Divion

Most of those examples you provided made me chuckle…

 

Yes.. aside from being forced into learning Shakespeare in high-school, I doubt most of us are “fans”, and I further doubt there are monetary values to assign to it, that would impress.

 

Shakespeare is not an IP neither, well I’m not sure if you can IP his works, does Shakespeare have an estate that makes intellectual claims to his works? I have no idea, would be interesting to know, however Shakespeare is an author, not an IP, if you consider his works, something along the lines of Romeo and Juliet could be considered an IP, I suppose…. Or Hamlet, but not HIM.

 

That’s like saying George Lucas is an IP, he is not, Lucas Arts is a company, he is a person, Star Wars is his IP.

 

Allthough you did raise an interesting point as to Disney as an IP.

AGAIN, Disney was a person, his company was named as such – Now as an IP Mickey Mouse is conceptually an IP, but it doesn’t hold weight to Star Wars.

If you combined ALL of Disney’s hundreds (if not thousands of IPs) into 1 then yes it would be greater than Star Wars, but like I said, that’s if you mis-assume that Disney is 1 IP, when it’s hundreds, Mickey alone can not stand before the force.

 

I always just thought of 'The Works of Shakespeare' as being just some sort of overarching work, possibly because he's just so damn old and dead.  :/  Even if you ONLY did Romeo and Juliet though, all the iterations of that are... pretty impressive.  I think any money made by spinoffs like West Side Story should count towards the tally. :D  I also consider 'money making' to be a pretty shallow way to look at just how much influence an IP actually has, culturally.  Some of the older stories just simply can't compete, because of the way the economy and the entertainment business has changed.

Uhm, and all of Disney is obviously totally one IP, since the characters always go visit each other.  The princesses totally have parties together, and anybody who has played Kingdom Hearts could tell you... *cough*

... okay, that might be stretching a little bit (Though technically it's sort of true, since you can find books where the characters crossover...) , but I feel all the Disney animated movies are about as closely related as half the Star Wars random spinoffs out there.  Maybe I'm just a little critical of the vast mass of Star Wars.

Originally posted by Meowhead

... and I'm saying that Star Wars is so young as an IP, that it's weird to think of it as bridging generation gaps, when if you look at the fans of it, the vast majority falls within a relatively tiny timespan.

... and religion can be entertainment.  I mean, have you ever read the Bible?  There is some hilarious stuff in there!  Random children being mauled by she-bears for insulting bald men.  That's just awesome.

... obviously I just have a much more open concept of what an entertainment ip consists of, I guess.  I don't see how fables don't count as entertainment IPs, and it's like you've never watched the billion and one Grimm's Fairy tales movies out there.  From live action to animated.

... but that's why I gave a sort of shotgun answer, so you could find the level at which you wish to engage and which you're willing to accept a defition.  At least you included Disney.

I guess if you define things really narrowly, it's a lot easier to say 'This is the #1 in the really narrow definition I'm using'.

You know you're just being obstinate and purposely derailing the thread topic for the fun of it, right? I so wish you'd do that far more often in GW2 threads and not mostly/solely in SWTOR threads

As for IP, let's take a look at how many big budget games have been made of the IP's around, how popular they've been: Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, they've known plenty. Regarding the bible or the Koran or the Indian vedas, not so much.

So, purely looking at games made per IP in the past decennia and the popularity of those IP's in the gaming genre, I'd say that Star Wars, Star Trek, Lord of the Rings and Dungeons & Dragons are the biggest by far (I could've forgotten a few).

Does that mean that other IP's aren't as game-applicable or have entertainment value as much as those mentioned? Certainly not, for example the Marvel Universe, DC comics IP and Harry Potter are as big IP's as those others mentioned. You could even say that Disney is as big an IP, even if the gaming target audience is smaller (younger). However, IP's like the bible or Koran as game entertainment aren't.

In short, gaming history of the past decennia has shown which IP's are apparently the most appealing and popular for games, hence they're the biggest IP's when it comes down to games.

Originally posted by Meowhead

Originally posted by Distopia

Well there's a difference between religion and entertainment, which is why I didn't take that seriously.

As for your actual replies, sure fables have been used as childrens stories for ages, though there's a difference between fables and Movies. Fables are ingrained in a lot of things, from books to schooling. I'm finding your reply to be pretty pretentious though, as you seemed to be answering to be a smartass, rather than actually think about the question.

I didn't say it is the only IP to break generation gaps, I said it's one of very few that have. Disney is the only reply in here that remotely answers the question I asked. If you don't want to answer a question seriously why bother answering at all?

... and I'm saying that Star Wars is so young as an IP, that it's weird to think of it as bridging generation gaps, when if you look at the fans of it, the vast majority falls within a relatively tiny timespan.

... and religion can be entertainment.  I mean, have you ever read the Bible?  There is some hilarious stuff in there!  Random children being mauled by she-bears for insulting bald men.  That's just awesome.

... obviously I just have a much more open concept of what an entertainment ip consists of, I guess.  I don't see how fables don't count as entertainment IPs, and it's like you've never watched the billion and one Grimm's Fairy tales movies out there.  From live action to animated.

... but that's why I gave a sort of shotgun answer, so you could find the level at which you wish to engage and which you're willing to accept a defition.  At least you included Disney.

I guess if you define things really narrowly, it's a lot easier to say 'This is the #1 in the really narrow definition I'm using'.

I'm 33 my little brother is 12, he loves Star Wars, that's a generation gap is it not? If you want to broaden the spectrum fine, lets talk other forms of entertainment. Music for the most part changes drastically per generation, Video-games have changed a lot over different generations. In both of these venues of entertainment, there's a style that's typically liked by one generation and not by the next. That's just how things are.

Now look back at the things you had to name to compare to Star Wars:

Popular fables, the biggest name in entertainment (Disney) and The Bible. This alone shows Star Wars is a breed of it's own as far as Sci-fi-Fantasy entertainment goes.

People play a game because it is fun, less because of an IP.

---

Minecraft is a game about placing blocks to build anything you can imagine. At night monsters come out, make sure to build a shelter before that happens. It also has music by C418! So far 11,504,184 people have registered and 3,016,761 people bought the game.

---

Originally posted by MMO.Maverick

You know you're just being obstinate and purposely derailing the thread topic for the fun of it, right? I so wish you'd do that far more often in GW2 threads and not mostly/solely in SWTOR threads

 

As for IP, let's take a look at how many big budget games have been made of the IP's around, how popular they've been: Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, they've known plenty. Regarding the bible or the Koran or the Indian vedas, not so much.

So, purely looking at games made per IP in the past decennia and the popularity of those IP's in the gaming genre, I'd say that Star Wars, Star Trek, Lord of the Rings and Dungeons & Dragons are the biggest by far (I could've forgotten a few).

 

Does that mean that other IP's aren't as game-applicable or have entertainment value as much as those mentioned? Certainly not, for example the Marvel Universe, DC comics IP and Harry Potter are as big IP's as those others mentioned. You could even say that Disney is as big an IP, even if the gaming target audience is smaller (younger). However, IP's like the bible or Koran as game entertainment aren't.

In short, gaming history of the past decennia has shown which IP's are apparently the most appealing and popular for games, hence they're the biggest IP's when it comes down to games.

Nah, I'm just disagreeing with a point.  Oddly enough, I was just about to add Marvel and DC, because they suddenly occured to me.  ... and those truly are IPs, since all the various Marvel and DC series are under one overarching world (Well, one each, for the respective comic lines, obviously)

I think if you added up all the DC or Marvel games and movies, you'd end up with a total that is at least in the ballpark of Star Wars.  I won't argue that Star Wars is huge.  I won't argue that it's  amoney maker.  I'm just not sure '#1 entertainment IP of all time' is really a valid point.

(Trust me, if people said things like that in a GW thread, I'd be more than happy to natter on about it.  I LIKE arguing about things for the sake of clarity.)

I think the one lesson we can all take from all the various IP games (Marvel, DC, Harry Potter, Star Wars, LotRO and so on) is that... oddly enough, they're not the biggest games.

They're big games, yes.

Not the biggest.  Star Wars shooter?  Not the biggest shooters of all time.  Star Wars racing games?  Not the biggest racing games of all time.  In fact, I think you'd be hard pressed to find a Star Wars any-genre game that is the biggest of its genre.  LotRO brawlers?  Not the biggest brawlers of all time.  Batman Arkham Asylum?  Big game, but there are bigger, of similar types.

I'm responding to this because the whole idea of the Star Wars IP being so big is actually a pet peeve of mine.

I am willing to argue that the quality of the game is FAR more important than the IP.  An IP can help drag people in, but in the end, it's the quality of the game itself that will really matter.  ... and if the quality is great enough, it will drag people in and KEEP them in.

All the biggest games of all time are original IPs.  You could list the top 20, and you probably wouldn't find more than a couple non-game-first IP among them.

This is not me saying 'SW:ToR will fail', this is me saying 'If SW:ToR really, truly succeeds, it will do so because it is a kick ass game that people want to play'.  The IP?  It's practically a side thing.

Can anybody really argue that Warcraft is a bigger IP (Pre MMO) than Lord of the Rings, DC universe and the Matrix?

SW:ToR will live or die on the strength of itself as a game.  The IP is purely secondary.  If the IP is the primary part, then the game is a pile of crap.  That's how it's always worked with IP video games.  Good game first.  If you bring in customers through the IP, cool, bonus.  That isn't what's going to make it a good game though, and you can make a much better selling game with a new IP and a better game.

Originally posted by Distopia

Now look back at the things you had to name to compare to Star Wars:

Popular fables, the biggest name in entertainment (Disney) and The Bible. This alone shows Star Wars is a breed of it's own as far as Sci-fi-Fantasy entertainment goes.

Won't argue that Star Wars is a monster IP.  It's kermongous.  It's one of the biggest out there.  Still not sure it's the biggest.  Curious how it stacks up against Marvel/DC.  Harry Potter has managed to do more movie sales even, and it's a baby IP, it came out after I was already an adult.  That's REALLY new.

Still, you have to pull out the really big guns to compete with Star Wars, it's a top class IP, I'm just not sure I would agree it's Teh Biggest.

Originally posted by Meowhead

Originally posted by Distopia

Now look back at the things you had to name to compare to Star Wars:

Popular fables, the biggest name in entertainment (Disney) and The Bible. This alone shows Star Wars is a breed of it's own as far as Sci-fi-Fantasy entertainment goes.

Won't argue that Star Wars is a monster IP.  It's kermongous.  It's one of the biggest out there.  Still not sure it's the biggest.  Curious how it stacks up against Marvel/DC.  Harry Potter has managed to do more movie sales even, and it's a baby IP, it came out after I was already an adult.  That's REALLY new.

Still, you have to pull out the really big guns to compete with Star Wars, it's a top class IP, I'm just not sure I would agree it's Teh Biggest.

I wouldn't say it's the biggest by an stretch, I'm just making a point that it's one of the rare breed of IP's that have gained substantial growth by many different demographics. This isn't something that happens all that much, especially in this day and age with so many rehashed ideas. It's not even an original concept, and it's still done very well.

Originally posted by Distopia

I wouldn't say it's the biggest by an stretch, I'm just making a point that it's one of the rare breed of IP's that have gained substantial growth by many different demographics. This isn't something that happens all that much, especially in this day and age with so many rehashed ideas. It's not even an original concept, and it's still done very well.

Well, I was mostly arguing against Divion about the whole 'Not the biggest entertainment IP'.

... and yeah, it's a pretty big, diverse IP.  It's really popular.  It does appeal to new people.  Dunno if it'll have long term legs (How many people remember the OTHER big name playwright of Shakespeare's time, the guy who was his biggest competitor and wrote about as much?  Yeah.  I thought so.), because I'm not psychic.  No specific reason for it NOT to, but humanity as a mass are not perfectly predictable.

I actually look at me talking about Star Wars IP not being the biggest point of SW:ToR as me DEFENDING the game.  That's right.  It's me trying to make SW:ToR look better.

Because honestly, if somebody told me the best feature of a game was the IP, I'd assume it was a piece of trash, just like the vast majority of IP based games.  (Yes.  Including many Star Wars games.  God, there were some horrible Star Wars games)

Ideally, shouldn't people be saying 'SW:ToR is so f'in badass, you won't even CARE that it's Star Wars!'?

Originally posted by Meowhead

All the biggest games of all time are original IPs.  You could list the top 20, and you probably wouldn't find more than a couple non-game-first IP among them.

? I don't disagree with the other arguments you wrote, but regarding this, sure, if you pick the top 20 games of all time there'll probably be a lot of original IP's, from Pac-Man, to Mario 3D to Zelda: Ocarina of Time to Populous to Doom or Command & Conquer. However, outside of that 1 game or handful of games those original IP's have had very little impact or independent power as IP (with the expection of Zelda and Mario).

Big IP's like Star Wars, DC/Marvel and Lord of the Rings and D&D have had a far larger allure and presence over the course of years to decennia and throughout various entertainment media, from movies to books to tv shows to games.

I think that D&D alone has been the godfather of the fantasy RPG genre since the earliest games, with some of its biggest representatives the Baldur's Gate series.

See now we are running into what i consider shady waters.

For value/fan-base not all can be quanitified in the same fashion.

Disney, Marvel, DC - You can't justifiy comparing this to Star Wars.

Due to it's nature of cross-over works, i don't consider DC an IP, i consider them a Company, Superman is an IP - and a big one at that, same for Marvel, Marvel is a brand, Spider-man is an IP, ect.

Same with Disney, i just don't feel like that can be applied to this... comparive notion of value, and fanbase.

I'm a Micky Mouse fan, but no a Minni mouse fan, i love Donald, and Goofy, i love the Aladdin moves, I HATED** Shrek, i giggled for hours at Finding Nemo, and i hated Toy Story.

Likewise,

Superman is my favorite Super-hero, but i hate the Flash, Hawkman, and Batman

I like Spiderman, but i dislike the Fantastic 4...

See what i'm saying? You can't bundle them, becuase you can be a fan of certain movies, comics, but not the other...

If you are a Star Wars fan you are a Star Wars fan...

Just becuase i didn't like the Force Unleashed doesn't mean i don't love the Star Wars Universe.

EDIT : Disney is NOT an IP, but Pirates of the Caribean is :) -- SO stop putting Disney/DC/Marvel into the same cat - I mean, sure there is Intellectual rights to the names, but they are brands, or companies, i doubt anyone would consider Lee Jeans an IP to be a fan of :P

Originally posted by MMO.Maverick

Originally posted by Meowhead

All the biggest games of all time are original IPs.  You could list the top 20, and you probably wouldn't find more than a couple non-game-first IP among them.

? I don't disagree with the other arguments you wrote, but regarding this, sure, if you pick the top 20 games of all time there'll probably be a lot of original IP's, from Pac-Man, to Mario 3D to Zelda: Ocarina of Time to Populous to Doom or Command & Conquer. However, outside of that 1 game or handful of games those original IP's have had very little impact or independent power as IP (with the expection of Zelda and Mario).

Big IP's like Star Wars, DC/Marvel and Lord of the Rings and D&D have had a far larger allure and presence over the course of years to decennia and throughout various entertainment media, from movies to books to tv shows to games.

I think that D&D alone has been the godfather of the fantasy RPG genre since the earliest games, with some of its biggest representatives the Baldur's Gate series.

My point wasn't 'The biggest games of all times are the biggest IPs', it was 'The biggest IPs of all time aren't the biggest games'.  It doesn't matter if Sims isn't as big of an overall IP as Star Wars, what matters is that as a GAME it sold amazingly well.  ... and we're talking about SW:ToR as a game, right?

Which speaks directly to the 'SW:ToR will be the biggest MMO because Star Wars' thing.

KOTOR isn't even Bioware's best selling game, and that's Star Wars + Bioware.

My whole point is that it's the quality of a game that ultimately matters, and that the biggest games of all time aren't the biggest games because they were original IPs, or because they were derivative IPs, or whatever... they were the biggest games because they were games that people wanted to play.

Which is why I think (Really, this all has to deal with the topic name!  You THINK I've been digressing, but you're all just falling into my TRAP where I seem like I'm rambling mindlessly!) that whether or not SW:ToR fails, it's perfectly possible that some other MMORPG will come up behind and after it and do even better.

How do you do better than Bioware + Star Wars?  By being a better game.  Will any of the upcoming MMORPGs be a better game than SW:ToR?  Dunno. I'm still not psychic since my last post.   Unless somebody thinks KOTOR is the pinnacle of gaming (... and some people do!), there's obviously room for other ways to be better though, so there's always a chance for some game to come up and just be so amazing that everybody and their mother plays this new MMORPG and talk about 'Remember WoW?  Yeah, back when MMORPGs were such a niche market and not MAINSTREAM like now?'

Originally posted by Divion

If you are a Star Wars fan you are a Star Wars fan...

Just becuase i didn't like the Force Unleashed doesn't mean i don't love the Star Wars Universe.

 

EDIT : Disney is NOT an IP, but Pirates of the Caribean is :) -- SO stop putting Disney/DC/Marvel into the same cat - I mean, sure there is Intellectual rights to the names, but they are brands, or companies, i doubt anyone would consider Lee Jeans an IP to be a fan of :P

Marvel universe and DC universe are IPs.  All of the characters are in a single shared universe.  Just because you like Superman and don't like Batman (Or whatever) doesn't invalidate that.

With Star Wars, It's perfectly possible to be a fan of the original trilogy and hate everything else... or the other way around.  (Yeah, I've met some people who love movies 1-3 and hate the originals because they're not as AWESOME.  These people are all children, but children are people too.)  I have a friend who ONLY likes the second Star Wars movie made (Movie 5.  I hate the numbering scheme, have I ever mentioned that?).  That's pretty darn specific.

In fact... Batman and Superman are contemporaries.  They have tea and stuff together.  They hang out.  They have team ups.  They have shared comic books.  They have illict affairs together (... no, wait, that was a fanfic...)

Most of the Star Wars universe, they're not even contemporaries.  Darth Vader doesn't hang out with Jar-Jar Binks.  Darth Revan doesn't punch Yoda.  Star Wars is a SETTING style IP, just like Marvel and DC are.  It's multiple authors/writers/artists spanning various people and places.

I think of Disney as a setting too, but I'll at least agree not everybody may see it the same way I do, so I'll semi-concede that one (Though I think the large amount of Disney princess materials my daughter has is pretty considerable proof that Belle really does go hang out with Cinderella so they can discuss boyfriends).

Originally posted by Meowhead

Originally posted by MMO.Maverick

Originally posted by Meowhead

All the biggest games of all time are original IPs.  You could list the top 20, and you probably wouldn't find more than a couple non-game-first IP among them.

? I don't disagree with the other arguments you wrote, but regarding this, sure, if you pick the top 20 games of all time there'll probably be a lot of original IP's, from Pac-Man, to Mario 3D to Zelda: Ocarina of Time to Populous to Doom or Command & Conquer. However, outside of that 1 game or handful of games those original IP's have had very little impact or independent power as IP (with the expection of Zelda and Mario).

Big IP's like Star Wars, DC/Marvel and Lord of the Rings and D&D have had a far larger allure and presence over the course of years to decennia and throughout various entertainment media, from movies to books to tv shows to games.

I think that D&D alone has been the godfather of the fantasy RPG genre since the earliest games, with some of its biggest representatives the Baldur's Gate series.

My point wasn't 'The biggest games of all times are the biggest IPs', it was 'The biggest IPs of all time aren't the biggest games'.  It doesn't matter if Sims isn't as big of an overall IP as Star Wars, what matters is that as a GAME it sold amazingly well.  ... and we're talking about SW:ToR as a game, right?

Which speaks directly to the 'SW:ToR will be the biggest MMO because Star Wars' thing.

KOTOR isn't even Bioware's best selling game, and that's Star Wars + Bioware.

My whole point is that it's the quality of a game that ultimately matters, and that the biggest games of all time aren't the biggest games because they were original IPs, or because they were derivative IPs, or whatever... they were the biggest games because they were games that people wanted to play.

Which is why I think (Really, this all has to deal with the topic name!  You THINK I've been digressing, but you're all just falling into my TRAP where I seem like I'm rambling mindlessly!) that whether or not SW:ToR fails, it's perfectly possible that some other MMORPG will come up behind and after it and do even better.

How do you do better than Bioware + Star Wars?  By being a better game.  Will any of the upcoming MMORPGs be a better game than SW:ToR?  Dunno. I'm still not psychic since my last post.   Unless somebody thinks KOTOR is the pinnacle of gaming (... and some people do!), there's obviously room for other ways to be better though, so there's always a chance for some game to come up and just be so amazing that everybody and their mother plays this new MMORPG and talk about 'Remember WoW?  Yeah, back when MMORPGs were such a niche market and not MAINSTREAM like now?'

in direct response to OP:

if TOR fails, it will do nothing to the genre because the game is more of the same old. there are so many good MMO's coming out. however, TOR wont fail...many boxes will sell, but subs will probably gradually drop off during the subsequent months.

if GW2 fails on the other hand, it may have a profound effect because it's supposed to be the next evolution.

Originally posted by Meowhead

My whole point is that it's the quality of a game that ultimately matters, and that the biggest games of all time aren't the biggest games because they were original IPs, or because they were derivative IPs, or whatever... they were the biggest games because they were games that people wanted to play.

Which is why I think (Really, this all has to deal with the topic name!  You THINK I've been digressing, but you're all just falling into my TRAP where I seem like I'm rambling mindlessly!) that whether or not SW:ToR fails, it's perfectly possible that some other MMORPG will come up behind and after it and do even better.

How do you do better than Bioware + Star Wars?  By being a better game.  Will any of the upcoming MMORPGs be a better game than SW:ToR?  Dunno. I'm still not psychic since my last post.   Unless somebody thinks KOTOR is the pinnacle of gaming (... and some people do!), there's obviously room for other ways to be better though, so there's always a chance for some game to come up and just be so amazing that everybody and their mother plays this new MMORPG and talk about 'Remember WoW?  Yeah, back when MMORPGs were such a niche market and not MAINSTREAM like now?'

Like I said, I don't really disagree with your arguments. However, the OP wasn't just about the IP, as I said in my former post to which the OP responded, it's the combination and what they're trying to do what it's about:

1 of the biggest IP's + 1 of the biggest game developers + 1 of the biggest publishers + biggest budget

That's a combination that is hard to surpass. How many game companies are on the level of Bioware that can pull of quality games, and certainly of a magnitude that we're speaking of for SWTOR? Even more, how many bigger game publishing companies are there than Activision and EA? How many IP's are around that are bigger than Star Wars?

If this combination doesn't work and certainly with that budget, it'll certainly make a lot of investers and game companies think hard and twice whether they really want to take the risk of entering the MMO market.

Sure, in the end it's a game in itself that matters. But familiarity with the IP or the game company can have a lot more people pay attention initially than when those are lacking.

For the rest, like I said I don't disagree with the things you stated

Originally posted by Meowhead

Originally posted by Divion

If you are a Star Wars fan you are a Star Wars fan...

Just becuase i didn't like the Force Unleashed doesn't mean i don't love the Star Wars Universe.

 

EDIT : Disney is NOT an IP, but Pirates of the Caribean is :) -- SO stop putting Disney/DC/Marvel into the same cat - I mean, sure there is Intellectual rights to the names, but they are brands, or companies, i doubt anyone would consider Lee Jeans an IP to be a fan of :P

Marvel universe and DC universe are IPs.  All of the characters are in a single shared universe.  Just because you like Superman and don't like Batman (Or whatever) doesn't invalidate that.

With Star Wars, It's perfectly possible to be a fan of the original trilogy and hate everything else... or the other way around.  (Yeah, I've met some people who love movies 1-3 and hate the originals because they're not as AWESOME.  These people are all children, but children are people too.)  I have a friend who ONLY likes the second Star Wars movie made (Movie 5.  I hate the numbering scheme, have I ever mentioned that?).  That's pretty darn specific.

In fact... Batman and Superman are contemporaries.  They have tea and stuff together.  They hang out.  They have team ups.  They have shared comic books.  They have illict affairs together (... no, wait, that was a fanfic...)

Most of the Star Wars universe, they're not even contemporaries.  Darth Vader doesn't hang out with Jar-Jar Binks.  Darth Revan doesn't punch Yoda.  Star Wars is a SETTING style IP, just like Marvel and DC are.  It's multiple authors/writers/artists spanning various people and places.

I think of Disney as a setting too, but I'll at least agree not everybody may see it the same way I do, so I'll semi-concede that one (Though I think the large amount of Disney princess materials my daughter has is pretty considerable proof that Belle really does go hang out with Cinderella so they can discuss boyfriends).

Thats what i'm saying it's shady water..

Star Wars following a quanitifable time-line.. the stores take place according to that time line...

DC/Marvel is anything but standard....

Movies contradict other movies, T.V. shows contradict other T.V. Shows, ect.

You can't call DC/Marvel a Universe, it's a MULTIVERSE >.>

To me, Superman is an IP, Batman is an IP -- Superman/Batman Adventures is an IP.

There are companies that hold editing rights to DC/Marvel IPs that outside the normal comic book lines - Example  The Ultimate Spider-man, The Amazing Spider-man.

All the different stories, universes, twists, including OTHER Marvel heros that are apart of the Spiderman IP, and vice-versa.

It's a mess, i know, thats why i'm saying we are walking into shady areas.

Originally posted by MMO.Maverick

Originally posted by Meowhead

My whole point is that it's the quality of a game that ultimately matters, and that the biggest games of all time aren't the biggest games because they were original IPs, or because they were derivative IPs, or whatever... they were the biggest games because they were games that people wanted to play.

Which is why I think (Really, this all has to deal with the topic name!  You THINK I've been digressing, but you're all just falling into my TRAP where I seem like I'm rambling mindlessly!) that whether or not SW:ToR fails, it's perfectly possible that some other MMORPG will come up behind and after it and do even better.

How do you do better than Bioware + Star Wars?  By being a better game.  Will any of the upcoming MMORPGs be a better game than SW:ToR?  Dunno. I'm still not psychic since my last post.   Unless somebody thinks KOTOR is the pinnacle of gaming (... and some people do!), there's obviously room for other ways to be better though, so there's always a chance for some game to come up and just be so amazing that everybody and their mother plays this new MMORPG and talk about 'Remember WoW?  Yeah, back when MMORPGs were such a niche market and not MAINSTREAM like now?'

Like I said, I don't really disagree with your arguments. However, the OP wasn't just about the IP, as I said in my former post to which the OP responded, it's the combination and what they're trying to do what it's about:

1 of the biggest IP's + 1 of the biggest game developers + 1 of the biggest publishers + biggest budget

 

That's a combination that is hard to surpass. How many game companies are on the level of Bioware that can pull of quality games, and certainly of a magnitude that we're speaking of for SWTOR? Even more, how many bigger game publishing companies are there than Activision and EA? How many IP's are around that are bigger than Star Wars?

If this combination doesn't work and certainly with that budget, it'll certainly make a lot of investers and game companies think hard and twice whether they really want to take the risk of entering the MMO market.

 

Sure, in the end it's a game in itself that matters. But familiarity with the IP or the game company can have a lot more people pay attention initially than when those are lacking.

For the rest, like I said I don't disagree with the things you stated