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News & Features Discussion  » Star Wars: The Old Republic: 'Welfare Epics'

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284 posts found
  Vorthanion

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/02/11
Posts: 1917

8/04/11 11:07:10 AM#201
Originally posted by fionanshrek
Originally posted by Vorthanion

What I want to know is if raiding is going to be the only venue for end game gear?  If it is, I also want to know why a casual game is going the raid or die route for end game, won't that piss off the casual gamers, who will once again be snubbed by developers like they did in that "Other" game?

 I read somewhere there would be endagme planets that worked much like a single player raid instance I think it was on this site but was posted by someone who follows the game alot closer than I do.

 Yes, I know, but they haven't mentioned if you can attain end game gear going that route, for both soloers and small groups.  They have mentioned several times that you will by raiding, but not by any other play style.

  LunaCrist

Novice Member

Joined: 1/20/10
Posts: 7

8/04/11 11:07:22 AM#202

Originally posted by toodlepip123





 


Running the same raid over and over ad infinitum and not seeing the drop you want, and when it does finally drop, you have to roll against other people for it...  Yea.. that is not fun at all.


 



^^^THIS^^^


lunacrist Xfire Miniprofile
  Vorthanion

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/02/11
Posts: 1917

8/04/11 11:11:54 AM#203
Originally posted by Palebane
Originally posted by LauZaIM

Originally posted by Fratman



Spending time raiding and not getting any loot makes it all the more sweeter when you do finally get your drop. Long grinds with a rare payoff are more fun than short grinds with constant rewards that everyone can get.




If you hand out bags of loot and tokens for every boss kill, instead of making raiding more rewarding, it makes it even more dissappointing when you open up your bag and only find tokens.  It also puts the grind right in your face because raiding then becomes of game of token collecting so you can get that next piece from a vendor. Since you know with certainty that if you keep raiding you will eventually have enough tokens to buy almost any gear you want, you'll enter every raid with no sense of excitiment or anticipation. It will be more like "lets just kill this boss asap because I need 5 more tokens for my helm." 




In the long term this is a bad system and will burn people out a lot faster than "old school" raiding.



 

 Total crap. Spending time raiding and not getttng loot is a complete waste of your time. You most likely have done the raid before, so nothing will be new or interesting about it at all. You basically just press buttons and spend your night watching the same movie if you will. Handing out bags for everyone gives a sense of accomplishment, and it gives you more of a reason to be there. Not only do you have a chance of getting that epic piece you've been wanting but you will also be getting this extra bag of stuff gauranteed if you succeed.


NOT having some kind of reward is what puts the grind right in your face, because if you leave empty handed you've basically accomplished absolutely nothing for yourself.


Oh, and token collecting is optional. 

 Seriously? I can understand that people play these games for different reasons, and that many do not share my opinions, but if item rewards are the only thing that have value for you in these games, then I can't help but feel sorry for you. These games have the potential to offer so much more. You can get rewards in any other computer game. What makes this genre unique seems to be the entire point you are missing. Getting better at the game is a waste of time? Meeting other people from around the world, that you otherwise would have no opportunity to interact with, is a waste of time? Perhaps I just misunderstood you.

 I don't know, maybe it's due to the fact that item progression is usually the only form of progression once you max your level.  Also, if items weren't important, why Raid constantly to get those elite gear rewards and why fight over them and create systems like DKP?  You people are hypocritcal at best.

  Wraithone

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 3567

If you can't kill it, don't make it mad.

8/04/11 11:47:10 AM#204
Originally posted by Palebane
Originally posted by Fourplay
Bioware can easily avoid the notion of everyone being geared the same. Design most of their raids with this loot system. But also offer a few elite dungeons. By elite dungeons, I mean their most pull your hair out difficult raids, crappy drop rates, lockout timers, timed dungoens, etc, etc. These elite dungoens would retain that feeling of rarity. Where when you see x guy sporting x gear. You know that guy is a dedicated, badass or in a badass guild who spent countless hours in pursuit of their gear sets.

Wouldn't that just start the cycle all over again? The entire topic is about people who can't stand to be inferior.

 

"Inferior"? Thats certainly an interesting perspective... Is one "inferior" if one isn't dripping in best in slot gear?   I guess from some peoples perspectives.  Usually the same people who use their position in such things to define their own, and others "worth".  Sorry, but thats not a game I'm really interested in playing. 

  arieste

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/11/04
Posts: 3308

8/04/11 12:19:05 PM#205
Originally posted by LunaCrist

Originally posted by toodlepip123





 


Running the same raid over and over ad infinitum and not seeing the drop you want, and when it does finally drop, you have to roll against other people for it...  Yea.. that is not fun at all.


 


^^^THIS^^^

You do realize that this is ever worse under the new syste?  YOu run the same raid over and over again and when the item you want finally drops, you don't even get to roll, it just gets randomly assigned.  It can be assigned to someone that's never raided before, to someone that already has it, to someone that doesn't need or want it, etc.  When you have to roll, people can at least choose to pass or whatever, here, everyone is automatically rolled for by the system and the losers just get a token.

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  Palebane

Novice Member

Joined: 10/18/04
Posts: 3247

8/04/11 1:22:08 PM#206
Originally posted by Wraithone
Originally posted by Palebane
Originally posted by Fourplay
Bioware can easily avoid the notion of everyone being geared the same. Design most of their raids with this loot system. But also offer a few elite dungeons. By elite dungeons, I mean their most pull your hair out difficult raids, crappy drop rates, lockout timers, timed dungoens, etc, etc. These elite dungoens would retain that feeling of rarity. Where when you see x guy sporting x gear. You know that guy is a dedicated, badass or in a badass guild who spent countless hours in pursuit of their gear sets.

Wouldn't that just start the cycle all over again? The entire topic is about people who can't stand to be inferior.

 

"Inferior"? Thats certainly an interesting perspective... Is one "inferior" if one isn't dripping in best in slot gear?   I guess from some peoples perspectives.  Usually the same people who use their position in such things to define their own, and others "worth".  Sorry, but thats not a game I'm really interested in playing. 

I agree. The whole thing is ridiculous. But that is exactly what is going to happen. Can you name one MMORPG that does not have this crap going on? I have no problem being inferior. I enjoy it.

Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.

  Ozeeba

Novice Member

Joined: 8/04/11
Posts: 2

8/04/11 1:59:22 PM#207

This smacks of "participation trophy" you know the ones they give out to everyone on the little league team or the soccer field just for showing up.


 


Lame and insulting.


  sirphobos

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/10/11
Posts: 602

8/04/11 2:50:25 PM#208
Originally posted by Ozeeba

This smacks of "participation trophy" you know the ones they give out to everyone on the little league team or the soccer field just for showing up.


 


Lame and insulting.

Yeah, it sure is lame that people won't be able to ninja loot in TOR and that raid leaders won't be able to give out loot to their wife or best friend over other people in the raid just because they feel like it.

  Bladestrom

Elite Member

Joined: 4/04/11
Posts: 3337

8/04/11 2:55:51 PM#209

The fact that raid loot systems is a key part of the end-game confirm what most suspect - that it is going to be a variation of the raid treadmill scene again.  No surprises, but ugh surely people are absolutely sick to the teeth of raiding to keep uo with the tier-joneses.  Welfare epics, or talking about ease of getting epics, its all well troden and worn down ground, and a sign that the match the raid difficulty to the lowest common denominator strategy is alive and well.

rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW (1000 hrs on main mage)> oblivion > LOTR (480 Hunter) > Rift (230 hours mage) > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(900 elementalist), Wildstar

Now playing GW2, AOW 3

  Kendane

Novice Member

Joined: 5/01/11
Posts: 222

8/04/11 2:57:36 PM#210
Originally posted by sirphobos
Originally posted by Ozeeba

This smacks of "participation trophy" you know the ones they give out to everyone on the little league team or the soccer field just for showing up.


 


Lame and insulting.

Yeah, it sure is lame that people won't be able to ninja loot in TOR and that raid leaders won't be able to give out loot to their wife or best friend over other people in the raid just because they feel like it.

 Because apprenlty it means anyone who likes the idea is a "terribad," yes I know a stupid as hell "word."  Apprently being part of downing a boss still means you're a noob/terribad/baddie/needs welfare epics.  I think in the end the translation is, only guild leaders, officers, and their friends are deserving of loot.

  Scot

Elite Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5244

8/04/11 3:28:04 PM#211
Lovers of easymode gameplay always bring up the old chestnut about people with families and so on. But they conveniently do not take their argument to its logical conclusion. What incentive is there to play more? If you get hardly any extra reward why bother to put twice as much time in…and for the same fee? And it is time spent online which develops a community feel, means that you can play in a group any time of the day, which makes a MMO your online home. This time conscious mentality is turning our MMO’s into pick up and put down solo games, but that’s what the companies want and the gamers that got them to where they are today can go hang themselves for all they care.
 
Also MMO’s have seen an increasing downward demographic in age. If I am wrong here it would have to be the old guys who had consoles when the teenies had PC’s. And the old guys who were all on social networking sites while the teenies were not. We know it was the reverse and that’s why the demographic is now a lot younger than it used to be.
  Kendane

Novice Member

Joined: 5/01/11
Posts: 222

8/04/11 3:34:25 PM#212
Originally posted by Scot
Lovers of easymode gameplay always bring up the old chestnut about people with families and so on. But they conveniently do not take their argument to its logical conclusion. What incentive is there to play more? If you get hardly any extra reward why bother to put twice as much time in…and for the same fee? And it is time spent online which develops a community feel, means that you can play in a group any time of the day, which makes a MMO your online home. This time conscious mentality is turning our MMO’s into pick up and put down solo games, but that’s what the companies want and the gamers that got them to where they are today can go hang themselves for all they care.
 
Also MMO’s have seen an increasing downward demographic in age. If I am wrong here it would have to be the old guys who had consoles when the teenies had PC’s. And the old guys who were all on social networking sites while the teenies were not. We know it was the reverse and that’s why the demographic is now a lot younger than it used to be.

 How is killing the boss, and maybe, we don't even have a percentage, of getting your gear, but at the very least some consulation prize easy mode?  If maybe 2 people get an item out of a 16 person raid, and the WoW equivlent would yield the same, how is this different?  Other than a guild leader getting to lord over who receives the shinies, theres nothing different.  If the boss was easy, than its still easy mode if they were using WoWs method, heck in general you get tokens to get gear in WoW for killing the boss.  So I don't see where this easy mode, welfare epics, etc etc is coming from?  Is the problem that more than 2 people get something, or that you cant dictate who gets what?

  Wraithone

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 3567

If you can't kill it, don't make it mad.

8/04/11 3:47:59 PM#213
Originally posted by Kendane
Originally posted by Scot
Lovers of easymode gameplay always bring up the old chestnut about people with families and so on. But they conveniently do not take their argument to its logical conclusion. What incentive is there to play more? If you get hardly any extra reward why bother to put twice as much time in…and for the same fee? And it is time spent online which develops a community feel, means that you can play in a group any time of the day, which makes a MMO your online home. This time conscious mentality is turning our MMO’s into pick up and put down solo games, but that’s what the companies want and the gamers that got them to where they are today can go hang themselves for all they care.
 
Also MMO’s have seen an increasing downward demographic in age. If I am wrong here it would have to be the old guys who had consoles when the teenies had PC’s. And the old guys who were all on social networking sites while the teenies were not. We know it was the reverse and that’s why the demographic is now a lot younger than it used to be.

 How is killing the boss, and maybe, we don't even have a percentage, of getting your gear, but at the very least some consulation prize easy mode?  If maybe 2 people get an item out of a 16 person raid, and the WoW equivlent would yield the same, how is this different?  Other than a guild leader getting to lord over who receives the shinies, theres nothing different.  If the boss was easy, than its still easy mode if they were using WoWs method, heck in general you get tokens to get gear in WoW for killing the boss.  So I don't see where this easy mode, welfare epics, etc etc is coming from?  Is the problem that more than 2 people get something, or that you cant dictate who gets what?

 

Because in The Old Days, we had to have 110% attendence on raids, 6-8 hours a night, 7 days a week, or we'd get negative DKP points!  Not only that, but we had to walk barefoot to the raids, through 8 feet of snow, up hill (both ways)... ^^ 

To certain types, "easy mode" means anything that normal non fanatic gamers can achieve.  In other words, their shiny purples are tied into their self worth, and by extension how they judge others worth.  That feeds into the entire Gear Score 733t attitude some people are prone to.  Its nice that Bioware is taking a different approach. 

  Bladestrom

Elite Member

Joined: 4/04/11
Posts: 3337

8/04/11 3:54:27 PM#214
Originally posted by Wraithone
Originally posted by Kendane
Originally posted by Scot
Lovers of easymode gameplay always bring up the old chestnut about people with families and so on. But they conveniently do not take their argument to its logical conclusion. What incentive is there to play more? If you get hardly any extra reward why bother to put twice as much time in…and for the same fee? And it is time spent online which develops a community feel, means that you can play in a group any time of the day, which makes a MMO your online home. This time conscious mentality is turning our MMO’s into pick up and put down solo games, but that’s what the companies want and the gamers that got them to where they are today can go hang themselves for all they care.
 
Also MMO’s have seen an increasing downward demographic in age. If I am wrong here it would have to be the old guys who had consoles when the teenies had PC’s. And the old guys who were all on social networking sites while the teenies were not. We know it was the reverse and that’s why the demographic is now a lot younger than it used to be.

 How is killing the boss, and maybe, we don't even have a percentage, of getting your gear, but at the very least some consulation prize easy mode?  If maybe 2 people get an item out of a 16 person raid, and the WoW equivlent would yield the same, how is this different?  Other than a guild leader getting to lord over who receives the shinies, theres nothing different.  If the boss was easy, than its still easy mode if they were using WoWs method, heck in general you get tokens to get gear in WoW for killing the boss.  So I don't see where this easy mode, welfare epics, etc etc is coming from?  Is the problem that more than 2 people get something, or that you cant dictate who gets what?

 

 Its nice that Bioware is taking a different approach. 

  They are taking a different looting model approach, but making their end-game loot-driven is a perpetuation of the root issues, the game is loot driven once you get beyond the stories and hit the end-game, very very tired approach.  Think about it, you leave wow, you go through the leveling experience then bang you are back to raiding for the next tier of loot ad infinitum.

rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW (1000 hrs on main mage)> oblivion > LOTR (480 Hunter) > Rift (230 hours mage) > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(900 elementalist), Wildstar

Now playing GW2, AOW 3

  iskapiska

Novice Member

Joined: 7/03/11
Posts: 5

8/04/11 6:22:00 PM#215

couldnt agree with you more!

I absolutely think BioWare is doing something great with the player specific loot bags. Well done, and well written article. 

  Elethon

Novice Member

Joined: 5/20/04
Posts: 111

8/04/11 7:16:17 PM#216

I like the loot containers idea, the less raid grinds I have to do the better. 


  Zulcatt

Novice Member

Joined: 12/27/10
Posts: 6

8/04/11 8:43:47 PM#217

I'm all for the loot containers

  hayes303

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/13/04
Posts: 360

8/04/11 8:46:02 PM#218

Already all about the game, but this will make it even better. I hates the loot drama.

  Palebane

Novice Member

Joined: 10/18/04
Posts: 3247

8/04/11 10:30:15 PM#219
Originally posted by Wraithone
Originally posted by Kendane
Originally posted by Scot
Lovers of easymode gameplay always bring up the old chestnut about people with families and so on. But they conveniently do not take their argument to its logical conclusion. What incentive is there to play more? If you get hardly any extra reward why bother to put twice as much time in…and for the same fee? And it is time spent online which develops a community feel, means that you can play in a group any time of the day, which makes a MMO your online home. This time conscious mentality is turning our MMO’s into pick up and put down solo games, but that’s what the companies want and the gamers that got them to where they are today can go hang themselves for all they care.
 
Also MMO’s have seen an increasing downward demographic in age. If I am wrong here it would have to be the old guys who had consoles when the teenies had PC’s. And the old guys who were all on social networking sites while the teenies were not. We know it was the reverse and that’s why the demographic is now a lot younger than it used to be.

 How is killing the boss, and maybe, we don't even have a percentage, of getting your gear, but at the very least some consulation prize easy mode?  If maybe 2 people get an item out of a 16 person raid, and the WoW equivlent would yield the same, how is this different?  Other than a guild leader getting to lord over who receives the shinies, theres nothing different.  If the boss was easy, than its still easy mode if they were using WoWs method, heck in general you get tokens to get gear in WoW for killing the boss.  So I don't see where this easy mode, welfare epics, etc etc is coming from?  Is the problem that more than 2 people get something, or that you cant dictate who gets what?

 

Because in The Old Days, we had to have 110% attendence on raids, 6-8 hours a night, 7 days a week, or we'd get negative DKP points!  Not only that, but we had to walk barefoot to the raids, through 8 feet of snow, up hill (both ways)... ^^ 

To certain types, "easy mode" means anything that normal non fanatic gamers can achieve.  In other words, their shiny purples are tied into their self worth, and by extension how they judge others worth.  That feeds into the entire Gear Score 733t attitude some people are prone to.  Its nice that Bioware is taking a different approach. 

 Perhaps the irony of this is that many players look up to those elite players with their shiny epics. And well, if they can't get them too, the game is unfair. In comes loot containers for all.

 

Yes, I know, the loot containers will curb ninja looters and corrupt loot distributuion; things that used to be dealt with by the players. I am happy that players will not get screwed over as much, but disappointed we've come to the point where we let the game mechanics dictate or deprecate the social order we, as players, used to have control of. That was one of the aspects of these games that I actually enjoyed.

Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.

  Nifa

Novice Member

Joined: 11/07/08
Posts: 327

You can get more with a kind word & a 2x4 than you can with just a kind word

8/04/11 10:32:36 PM#220

 

Originally posted by MikeB

MMORPG.com Community Manager Michael Bitton discusses the recent revelations regarding Star Wars: The Old Republic's Operation loot distribution in this week's The Old Republic column.




Last week, we reported on a story that shed some light on BioWare’s current approach to loot distribution in Operations. Differing somewhat from other games on the market, BioWare’s approach involves granting all players an individual loot container at the end of a key Operation encounter. These containers will offer a chance at class-specific gear. Even in the absence of desired loot, the containers will, at the very least, contain commendations that can be traded for class-specific loot at appropriate vendors. Think Warhammer Online’s ‘PQ Bags,’ though there is no word on whether there will be different quality containers based on contribution level.


Read more of Michael Bitton's Star Wars: The Old Republic: 'Welfare Epics'.


 

 

Wow, Michael. Your word choice was so poor, I couldn't be bothered to read your article. Could you possibly come across as any more of an ass? If you play this game, I hope to God you aren't on my server - alternately, I hope I know your toon name, so I can instantly ignore you. People who use terms like 'welfare epic' are the type of people who gained WoW the dubious (and true) reputation of having the worst community in gaming. You'd think an industry writer would know better.

Firebrand Art

"You are obviously confusing a mature rating with actual maturity." -Asherman

Maybe MMO is not your genre, go play Modern Warfare...or something you can be all twitchy...and rank up all night. This is seriously getting tired. -Ranyr

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