Originally posted by UnleadedRev

When Free to Play Games first arrived, they were viewed as either the "brand of failure" for a previously subscription based MMORPG. However, now that triple AAA titles that were no where close to failing have gone F2P such as LOTRO and AoC, and seem to be thriving at least in the case of LOTRO, you can now look at AoC with its PvP armor and weapons you can buy and say hhhhmmmm.

We just saw how EVE was in upheaval over speculation and gray area evidence of that game going not only micro-transactions but also game affecting items. All of which caused riot conditions across EVE and now are just for vanity items.

First LOTRO with MT stat tomes, then AoC with MT weapons and armor, then the specter of EVE with MT spaceships...all game effecting items.

A very subtle excalation of MT items that affect gameplay...

Also, SWTORs CE store that no one is 100% sure what it sells...probably because Bioware is gauging player reaction...yeah yeah they said only vanity items and stuff you can get anyway in game...DUH! So then thats the same as AoC with its blue and purple PvP armor and weapons.

For existing games like AoC all the players that put in the hard work to gain such items are now shaking their heads...yeah even though they have much better than even the store items now, its still 50% of the work already being done for new players, which older players earned they old fashion way. The argument has been made that due to DESIGN FLAWs AoC alienated new players by putting them behind a gear curve that would take forever to bring them on par and competitive, i.e. you must lose 30,000 mini games to earn your PvP 5 gear LOL!

Everything is changed NOW that Blizzard is announcing a real money auction house in Diablo....and in a non-MMO.

Whats the significance you ask? Well, as you can tell by all the WoW clones....where Blizzard goes the rest of the industry goes...

Expect many non-MMO games to go with real money auction houses. Just as MT stores make games more money I am sure there will be a buyer/seller fee for blizzard with the D III auction house as well.

Business is business....these games dont provide a public service, they are products designed to make money for the publishers beyond just selling a game box. In some cases keeps games alive that have budget problems, etc. Unfortunately, it seems Devs and publishers have joined the dreaded "I want it now" generation of gamers who want to cut to the chase and not earn their gear. Sounds like real life too in some cases..wheres my job, wheres my diploma, wheres my house and car.

Hey man..you need to EARN those things.

Your knowledge of F2P and microtransactions seems to start a half a decade after free to play MMOs and about a decade after microtransactions in subscription games.

The only reason Blizzard has been fighting gold sellers for the past 10 years us because they dont like the idea of anyone making money off their game except them,

Now with Diablo III anyone can be a gold seller as long as Blizzard gets their cut....if ya cant beat them, then join them.

All this BS about Blizzard making a "safer environment" is utter BS, they just want their cut.

I have no interest in playing F2P games based on this model. I prefer the simplicity of a monthly subsciption, with all content available to the subscribers within the game.

Originally posted by UnleadedRev

The only reason Blizzard has been fighting gold sellers for the past 10 years us because they dont like the idea of anyone making money off their game except them,

Now with Diablo III anyone can be a gold seller as long as Blizzard gets their cut....if ya cant beat them, then join them.

All this BS about Blizzard making a "safer environment" is utter BS, they just want their cut.

Er, well, yeah, you're right, this is a way for Blizzard to make money off of something that is going to happen regardless what they attempt to do to control it, so why would you expect them not to implement this?

It does in fact provide a safer medium to conduct business, CCP does the same thing in EVE facilitating the PLEX trading market, though they don't get a cut from the sales.

Besides, by increasing safety, Blizzard saves money not having to recover peoples stolen accounts and what not, which again is a the goal of a corporation, reduce costs, increase profitability.

Time to face the real world folks, MMO's are a big business and they're going to be run like one.

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by UnleadedRev

The only reason Blizzard has been fighting gold sellers for the past 10 years us because they dont like the idea of anyone making money off their game except them,

Now with Diablo III anyone can be a gold seller as long as Blizzard gets their cut....if ya cant beat them, then join them.

All this BS about Blizzard making a "safer environment" is utter BS, they just want their cut.

Er, well, yeah, you're right, this is a way for Blizzard to make money off of something that is going to happen regardless what they attempt to do to control it, so why would you expect them not to implement this?

It does in fact provide a safer medium to conduct business, CCP does the same thing in EVE facilitating the PLEX trading market, though they don't get a cut from the sales.

Besides, by increasing safety, Blizzard saves money not having to recover peoples stolen accounts and what not, which again is a the goal of a corporation, reduce costs, increase profitability.

Time to face the real world folks, MMO's are a big business and they're going to be run like one.

 sorry but acounts with blizzard are already so NOT SAFE, and the fact people can sell stuff for real money means there will be MORE hacked acounts.

Originally posted by lizardbones

 

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Originally posted by alkarionlog

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Originally posted by Revivial

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Originally posted by Ruinal

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Originally posted by Ceridith


 It's quite literally the equivilant of a government suddenly deciding narcotics are no longer a illegal, and allowing sales of them so long as they got a cut of it.

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Funnily enough there are a *lot* of people who think governments should do exactly that, rather than wage a futile 'war on drugs'. Just because no government has ever tried that approach doesn't mean it wouldn't or cannot work. My analogy, druggy is going to get their fix, whether legally or illegally.

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Dutch law allows people to use soft drugs at their own risk.  You can go into a coffee shop, buy some hallucinogenic mushrooms and cannabis without going to jail.
Dunno how well it works for them. 
 

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only reason I can see a goverment permit drugs is to tax the drugs so they can have a share of it, no other reason

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It couldn't possibly be that using the criminal justice system to curb drug usage (not distribution) creates more problems than it solves? It's expensive, doesn't stop people from using drugs and the non-violent people you jail for drug possession become better, more violent criminals.

The current solutions to 'gold farmers' have limited success, and really just creates a better breed of 'gold farmer'. Make the 1,000 or so 'gold farmer' businesses compete with millions of players, and the millions of players will win.

But that's not why Blizzard is doing this. They are doing this because they will be able to derive income from a game that normally wouldn't generate income. Moreover, they'll do it by giving the majority of players what they want.

 

So rather than continuing with their principles of doing what they can to try to keep RMT out of their games to preserve the spirit of the game... they figure they might as well jut take a cut of the action.

That's the problem I have with it. Not just that they're allowing RMT, but that they're doing it explicitly so they can profit off of it themselves. And really this change doesn't do anything to help combat all of the problems that come from RMT, such as more extensive botting, hacking, economy inflation, etc. All of these same problems still exist, if not get worse. So really, all that's happened is that Blizzard will now take a cut of all of these sales, and the game and average players is still generally screwed by RMT's existence.

As per the claim that they're just giving the majority of players what they want... I call bullshit on this. There are a lot of gamers, myself included, who prefer our games stay games, which means we don't like RMT. I for one will not be playing Diablo 3 in part because of this, and there looks to be a growing number of people who feel similarly. They may be giving in to what some players want, but they're also giving a lot of other players yet another reason to steer clear from their game.

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by UnleadedRev

The only reason Blizzard has been fighting gold sellers for the past 10 years us because they dont like the idea of anyone making money off their game except them,

Now with Diablo III anyone can be a gold seller as long as Blizzard gets their cut....if ya cant beat them, then join them.

All this BS about Blizzard making a "safer environment" is utter BS, they just want their cut.

Er, well, yeah, you're right, this is a way for Blizzard to make money off of something that is going to happen regardless what they attempt to do to control it, so why would you expect them not to implement this?

It does in fact provide a safer medium to conduct business, CCP does the same thing in EVE facilitating the PLEX trading market, though they don't get a cut from the sales.

Besides, by increasing safety, Blizzard saves money not having to recover peoples stolen accounts and what not, which again is a the goal of a corporation, reduce costs, increase profitability.

Time to face the real world folks, MMO's are a big business and they're going to be run like one.

Actually, it's this kind of mentality that is allowing for MMOs to become this way. It's not something that's inevitable, or something we have to just accept and embrace. It's happening because the average gamer is allowing it to happen, not because they want it or because they can't stop it. It's quite simple, just stop buying into the corporate bullshit spin that these companies keep throwing at us to try to rationalize their attempts to bleed money from gamers.

And this does nothing to make anything any safer. People's accounts are still going to be stolen and cleaned, and their items sold... only now Blizzard will take a small cut each time someone's account is hacked.

So now Blizzard makes a bit more money, and gamers are still just as screwed... I guess you can call that progress if all you care about is companies making profit.

hmm Diablo 3, i will still probably end up getting it, however i probably will not play it online as i only see this as a single player offline game mainly. It does not have a monthly subscription and is absolutly not multiplayer orientated. If i do choose to play it online though, it wont be for long and wont be like  Wow/Rift/Aion etc etc etc that are solo'ly online multiplayer games.

So if someone wants to buy an item in D3 for x ammount of money then so be it, i would rather run the boss over and over again and save my wallet some secevere heartache.

If they did this for online games then it would be a differant matter entirely as that would screw up the economy, give those who have the money a huge advantage over most of teh other players. I then would tell that company how shit they were and would not touch their game (or any of them) again.

Some of you guys must understand that video gaming is crossing from the teenager hobby sphere to the adult hobby realm. And in the case of adult hobbys it has always been all about money. The real money. The guy who can spend more cash on his hobby will have better and bigger stamp/coins/M:TG cards collection etc. than the guys who can spend less. It is freaking normal and why the virtual world should be any different? It was different so far, as it was child-oriented one time paid product or with some small subscription attached. Simply because  child/teenager budget is very limited. But that changes. Now more and more adults are playing video games and their supply of cash is much bigger.
And as much as I despise micro-transaction system, which creates false/scam economy of endless virtual supply monoplized by the game developer, I actually love Blizzard's idea of players trading items with each other.
Who's unhappy with it?
Let see: a seller is happy, as he sold whatever he wanted to sell, a buyer is happy as he bought whatever he wanted to buy, Blizzard is happy as he made money on the transaction, IRS is happy as he got more money from happy Blizzard and even a chinese gold farmer is happy, as he still can farm his gold and sell it for real dough, but this time without being afraid of getting banned...So who is unhappy?
The only unhappy guy I see is the one in the corner, who can't sleep at night if he sees someone with better gear than his and who used to make up for his real-world inferiority complex with the virtual achievements. Every one else will simply enjoy hacking and slashing virtual monsters...

I would rather play free than having to deal with monthly payments. So some people can buy items, so what.

As far as Diablo III, that's not an MMO, so why are you bringing that up, to help you point? it's not helping.

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Originally posted by Ceridith

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Originally posted by lizardbones
 

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Originally posted by alkarionlog

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Originally posted by Revivial

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Originally posted by Ruinal

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Originally posted by Ceridith


 It's quite literally the equivilant of a government suddenly deciding narcotics are no longer a illegal, and allowing sales of them so long as they got a cut of it.

---

Funnily enough there are a *lot* of people who think governments should do exactly that, rather than wage a futile 'war on drugs'. Just because no government has ever tried that approach doesn't mean it wouldn't or cannot work. My analogy, druggy is going to get their fix, whether legally or illegally.

---

Dutch law allows people to use soft drugs at their own risk.  You can go into a coffee shop, buy some hallucinogenic mushrooms and cannabis without going to jail.
Dunno how well it works for them. 
 

---

 
only reason I can see a goverment permit drugs is to tax the drugs so they can have a share of it, no other reason

---

It couldn't possibly be that using the criminal justice system to curb drug usage (not distribution) creates more problems than it solves? It's expensive, doesn't stop people from using drugs and the non-violent people you jail for drug possession become better, more violent criminals.

The current solutions to 'gold farmers' have limited success, and really just creates a better breed of 'gold farmer'. Make the 1,000 or so 'gold farmer' businesses compete with millions of players, and the millions of players will win.

But that's not why Blizzard is doing this. They are doing this because they will be able to derive income from a game that normally wouldn't generate income. Moreover, they'll do it by giving the majority of players what they want.

 

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So rather than continuing with their principles of doing what they can to try to keep RMT out of their games to preserve the spirit of the game... they figure they might as well jut take a cut of the action.
That's the problem I have with it. Not just that they're allowing RMT, but that they're doing it explicitly so they can profit off of it themselves. And really this change doesn't do anything to help combat all of the problems that come from RMT, such as more extensive botting, hacking, economy inflation, etc. All of these same problems still exist, if not get worse. So really, all that's happened is that Blizzard will now take a cut of all of these sales, and the game and average players is still generally screwed by RMT's existence.
As per the claim that they're just giving the majority of players what they want... I call bullshit on this. There are a lot of gamers, myself included, who prefer our games stay games, which means we don't like RMT. I for one will not be playing Diablo 3 in part because of this, and there looks to be a growing number of people who feel similarly. They may be giving in to what some players want, but they're also giving a lot of other players yet another reason to steer clear from their game.

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Anyone who is upset by these things need simply vote with their wallet. It's likely going to be popular enough to stay a trend for some time, but that's no reason to be part of the "problem". There are plenty of alternatives.

OP's concern is not really an issue for me.

P2P sub model was something new and it turned out fine.

F2P with MT is just another payment model. No one is forcing anyone to pay for anything.

An individual is ultimately responsible for that and if one can't make reasonable decision, don't blame the 'system' or game companies.

Originally posted by Ceridith

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by UnleadedRev

The only reason Blizzard has been fighting gold sellers for the past 10 years us because they dont like the idea of anyone making money off their game except them,

Now with Diablo III anyone can be a gold seller as long as Blizzard gets their cut....if ya cant beat them, then join them.

All this BS about Blizzard making a "safer environment" is utter BS, they just want their cut.

Er, well, yeah, you're right, this is a way for Blizzard to make money off of something that is going to happen regardless what they attempt to do to control it, so why would you expect them not to implement this?

It does in fact provide a safer medium to conduct business, CCP does the same thing in EVE facilitating the PLEX trading market, though they don't get a cut from the sales.

Besides, by increasing safety, Blizzard saves money not having to recover peoples stolen accounts and what not, which again is a the goal of a corporation, reduce costs, increase profitability.

Time to face the real world folks, MMO's are a big business and they're going to be run like one.

Actually, it's this kind of mentality that is allowing for MMOs to become this way. It's not something that's inevitable, or something we have to just accept and embrace. It's happening because the average gamer is allowing it to happen, not because they want it or because they can't stop it. It's quite simple, just stop buying into the corporate bullshit spin that these companies keep throwing at us to try to rationalize their attempts to bleed money from gamers.

And this does nothing to make anything any safer. People's accounts are still going to be stolen and cleaned, and their items sold... only now Blizzard will take a small cut each time someone's account is hacked.

So now Blizzard makes a bit more money, and gamers are still just as screwed... I guess you can call that progress if all you care about is companies making profit.

No, I'm sorry, despite what you want to believe, you can't fight the future. 

Fewer accounts will be stolen, it will be safer to trade items through Blizzard's Auction house than through Ebay and living in denial won't change these facts.

This is not corporate bullshit, this is business, the industry moved out of the cottage stage years ago.

I can not fatham the amount of rage that I feel when it comes to seeing people's blatent stupidity and ignorance.  *sighs*

First of all, what it seems like to me is sheer jealousy.   "I spent x hours grinding this piece of equipment or this gold, but he just spent $20 and got it in 5 minutes.  wtf man"   Now here's the reality, you could have spent the same amount of money!  Omg I know right.   On a serious note, put your lame pride aside and stop whining because some people choose the easy route.  Oh well they get an advantage, well it's not like no one else can utilize it.  If you're broke, well you don't drive a ferrari like that guy who lives in the mansion on the hill do you?   Go whine about that too then while you're at it.

Secondly, to the poster that said blizzard accounts aren't safe and about hacking.   Only stupid half brained dumb asses get hacked, sorry to say but no one can pry your brain of information.  You know your account info, if you give it out or use the same information on other websites.  Then guess what, that's your fault not the game companies.  Hell they even made authenticators that are virtually impossible to decypher, but y'know they're the most unsafe since they're the ONLY company that uses them.

On a further note, stop whining.  Businesses make money, that's why they are there.  You can choose to play, you can choose to pay.  If you don't like it leave and find something else, if you can't and enjoy the game then suck it up and stfu.  No one ever has a different advantage in any game other then their own personal skill, just step back and think of it for a minute.

I'm sorry, but all you people talking about (paraphrasing) "myself, and lots of people like me won't put up w/ RMT, so we won't be playing x game b/c of it"....you really are much more alone then you realize.

When this whole RMT thing started creeping into mainstream, western MMO's, I was all against it, sounding just like all of you. But really, now I don't really care very much. Honestly, how does it affect me if Joe-shmoe over there bought all his shiny gear? It doesn't. And if I want to drop a couple bucks on a vanity item, cool, I can do that. I won't be buying any high-end gear, but if someone else wants to, more power to em.

Back to my main point about you in the hardcore anti-RMT crowd...I know it's not an MMO, but Team Fortress 2 has as large a population as many MMO's, and a community that is just as passionate. When Valve introduced RMT's into TF2 there was a lot of bitching and moaning, but Valve has made a not-so-small fortune through selling items in TF2, so obviously, you anti-RMT's aren't all that numerous as you like to think.

Just food for thought

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by Ceridith

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by UnleadedRev

The only reason Blizzard has been fighting gold sellers for the past 10 years us because they dont like the idea of anyone making money off their game except them,

Now with Diablo III anyone can be a gold seller as long as Blizzard gets their cut....if ya cant beat them, then join them.

All this BS about Blizzard making a "safer environment" is utter BS, they just want their cut.

Er, well, yeah, you're right, this is a way for Blizzard to make money off of something that is going to happen regardless what they attempt to do to control it, so why would you expect them not to implement this?

It does in fact provide a safer medium to conduct business, CCP does the same thing in EVE facilitating the PLEX trading market, though they don't get a cut from the sales.

Besides, by increasing safety, Blizzard saves money not having to recover peoples stolen accounts and what not, which again is a the goal of a corporation, reduce costs, increase profitability.

Time to face the real world folks, MMO's are a big business and they're going to be run like one.

Actually, it's this kind of mentality that is allowing for MMOs to become this way. It's not something that's inevitable, or something we have to just accept and embrace. It's happening because the average gamer is allowing it to happen, not because they want it or because they can't stop it. It's quite simple, just stop buying into the corporate bullshit spin that these companies keep throwing at us to try to rationalize their attempts to bleed money from gamers.

And this does nothing to make anything any safer. People's accounts are still going to be stolen and cleaned, and their items sold... only now Blizzard will take a small cut each time someone's account is hacked.

So now Blizzard makes a bit more money, and gamers are still just as screwed... I guess you can call that progress if all you care about is companies making profit.

No, I'm sorry, despite what you want to believe, you can't fight the future. 

Fewer accounts will be stolen, it will be safer to trade items through Blizzard's Auction house than through Ebay and living in denial won't change these facts.

This is not corporate bullshit, this is business, the industry moved out of the cottage stage years ago.

The future is whatever we make it to be. Defeatedly sitting back and letting corporations do what they want is allowing them to dictate our future. If enough people actually stand up for their principles, then the future can be influenced. It's not fighting the future, it's influencing the future to not be a cesspool of corporate greed.

The only one in denial is yourself. Thinking that less hacking will occur because of sanctioned RMT is nonsense. Stealing people's accounts will still be the most profitable method of acquiring gold and items to sell per time spent. If anything, this system will do nothing but increase the frequency of hacking.

You're right about one thing though, this is business. Blizzard doesn't care about creating a quality game. All they care about is profit these days. You're free to waste your money on a sub-par gaming experience and throw it at a corporate giant who doesn't care about you or your enjoyment. I'll save my money for the indie developers that actually care about making a decent game.

Originally posted by xS0u1zx

I can not fatham the amount of rage that I feel when it comes to seeing people's blatent stupidity and ignorance.  *sighs*

 

First of all, what it seems like to me is sheer jealousy.   "I spent x hours grinding this piece of equipment or this gold, but he just spent $20 and got it in 5 minutes.  wtf man"   Now here's the reality, you could have spent the same amount of money!  Omg I know right.   On a serious note, put your lame pride aside and stop whining because some people choose the easy route.  Oh well they get an advantage, well it's not like no one else can utilize it.  If you're broke, well you don't drive a ferrari like that guy who lives in the mansion on the hill do you?   Go whine about that too then while you're at it.

 

Secondly, to the poster that said blizzard accounts aren't safe and about hacking.   Only stupid half brained dumb asses get hacked, sorry to say but no one can pry your brain of information.  You know your account info, if you give it out or use the same information on other websites.  Then guess what, that's your fault not the game companies.  Hell they even made authenticators that are virtually impossible to decypher, but y'know they're the most unsafe since they're the ONLY company that uses them.

 

On a further note, stop whining.  Businesses make money, that's why they are there.  You can choose to play, you can choose to pay.  If you don't like it leave and find something else, if you can't and enjoy the game then suck it up and stfu.  No one ever has a different advantage in any game other then their own personal skill, just step back and think of it for a minute.

 While I do actually agree with you, some things do not translate. Take any other hobby, such as making model cars. If someone puts a lot of time and effort into making model cars and gets good at it, that is something to be proud of and something to work toward. You get prizes for being very good at what you've accomplished. It doesn't matter as much if you can afford the best kits, or the best paint, because practice and ingenuity count more. What if someone could just pay money to make the best models? What if you could go to a store and buy a toy car and enter that into a contest and actually win? It's less about pure jealousy than about the spirit of the game, in my opinion. How many people would play Pacman against someone who pays money to have less ghosts floating around on the screen?

Secondly, these are predators you are talking about who hack people and steal their stuff. It doesn't matter if it's stupid people who are getting victimized, they are still victims. Just because you leave your house, doesn't mean that it's ok for you got get beaten or robbed. Ignoring the problem will only make it worse.

On a further note, governments make money. But that is not their primary function, it is to represent the people and try to make life better for everyone. Game publishers need to make money, but not at the cost of corrupting the spirit of the game or making players unequal based on arbitrary circumstances.

Originally posted by xS0u1zx

I can not fatham the amount of rage that I feel when it comes to seeing people's blatent stupidity and ignorance.  *sighs*

 

First of all, what it seems like to me is sheer jealousy.   "I spent x hours grinding this piece of equipment or this gold, but he just spent $20 and got it in 5 minutes.  wtf man"   Now here's the reality, you could have spent the same amount of money!  Omg I know right.   On a serious note, put your lame pride aside and stop whining because some people choose the easy route.  Oh well they get an advantage, well it's not like no one else can utilize it.  If you're broke, well you don't drive a ferrari like that guy who lives in the mansion on the hill do you?   Go whine about that too then while you're at it.

 

Secondly, to the poster that said blizzard accounts aren't safe and about hacking.   Only stupid half brained dumb asses get hacked, sorry to say but no one can pry your brain of information.  You know your account info, if you give it out or use the same information on other websites.  Then guess what, that's your fault not the game companies.  Hell they even made authenticators that are virtually impossible to decypher, but y'know they're the most unsafe since they're the ONLY company that uses them.

 

On a further note, stop whining.  Businesses make money, that's why they are there.  You can choose to play, you can choose to pay.  If you don't like it leave and find something else, if you can't and enjoy the game then suck it up and stfu.  No one ever has a different advantage in any game other then their own personal skill, just step back and think of it for a minute.

It's not a matter of pride for a lot of people, it's a matter of accomplishment. If I can spent hours of time grinding for an item, or spent $10 for the same item, then personally I feel like I'm wasting my time playing the game because I make a lot more than $10 for an hour of work. I'm also not spending money to buy those items, because that defeats the purpose of playing the game. So either my gameplay feels diminished, or I feel like I'm wasting money... either way my enjoyment of the game has essentially died because of the existence of RMT.

So my choice? Neither, I just won't play the game. I'll save my time, my money, and play a game that isn't infested with RMT.

Originally posted by Ceridith

 

It's not a matter of pride for a lot of people, it's a matter of accomplishment. If I can spent hours of time grinding for an item, or spent $10 for the same item, then personally I feel like I'm wasting my time playing the game because I make a lot more than $10 for an hour of work. I'm also not spending money to buy those items, because that defeats the purpose of playing the game. So either my gameplay feels diminished, or I feel like I'm wasting money... either way my enjoyment of the game has essentially died because of the existence of RMT.

So my choice? Neither, I just won't play the game. I'll save my time, my money, and play a game that isn't infested with RMT.

So much THIS.

Really you had put into worlds exactly what I feel and why I hate item shops and this blizz real cash AH idea.