Originally posted by Khalathwyr

Originally posted by Icewhite

What's causing the exodus?  Aging game or bad policy decision from CCP?

I'd have to vote bad policy decisions. The Eve crowd has always seemed to me to be the old school crowd that didn't whine about games "being second jobs" and had no issue at all with "time put into the game" being a factor to your reward back. They also seemed to be the crowd that is against item malls for in game items aside from PLEX which is just game time.

 

So, to read that leaked newsletter along with the NEX store and such, it is clear CCP is changing up their policies a bit to go in a different direction. Trouble is that direction is not one their CURRENT SUBSCRIBERS want, apparently. I guess CCP learned nothing from SOE's mistake.

 

CCP used to be the last of the "old school" developers that I trusted. I looked forward to World of Darkness Online. Now, not so much. That an item mall with everything from "cosmetic" to "power" items are in the plans for it just completely let the air out of my balloon for that title. It's sad when companies think they have to include item malls to make money. If they would just make a solid game in the first place they'd rake in subscription money hand over fist.

 Brilliant post.

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Originally posted by Boardwalker

Here ya go.
 
Before you can no longer log in, can I have your stuff? I'll make sure that you're legacy lives on ingame.

---

Ha, that was funny read! :)

But yeah, if those self proclaimed 'vets' truly were 'vets' in experience and knowledge, they would know that drama like this always accompany any major or lesser game change and they usually laugh at those who rage quit in same manner.

It mostly reminds me reaction of people who experience their first 'major' game change....

Originally posted by Gdemami

 

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Originally posted by Boardwalker

Here ya go.
 
Before you can no longer log in, can I have your stuff? I'll make sure that you're legacy lives on ingame.

---

 

Ha, that was funny read! :)

But yeah, if those self proclaimed 'vets' truly were 'vets' in experience and knowledge, they would know that drama like this always accompany any major or lesser game change and they usually laugh at those who rage quit in same manner.

It mostly reminds me reaction of people who experience their first 'major' game change....

Not really.

You see for 2 years I've been in the game and watched as things have changed.

The attitude of those 'vets' has been extremely protective of their game and the company that produces it.  They have stuck through thick and thin, yelled, screamed, muttered, cheered, etc.

Always inside.  To the outside it's been presented well by these "vets" as an awesome gaming experience - many of those same vets that now are tossing in the towel.

The change in attitude has been building for around 18 months now.  Bit by bit the anger has been growing.  Small amounts of good coming from CCP.  Larger amounts of fodder and excuses for not advancing *THIS* game.  "Dust...  MT store...  Incarna..."

An MT store - to improve this game more?  Is this game not making money?!?!?  WRONG!  It's to fund OTHER efforts. 

They have already stated that this games development is still backseat to their other efforts - dust 514 and interfacing to it:  *NOT* EVE core. 

Less and less about EVE with more and more dev efforts aimed at an MT store and "fluff" vs starships, systems, game economy, combat, etc.  Bleeding the customer base for more funds to *NOT* work on the core functions of this game, which is PAYING FOR all the other stuff. 

Where they spend their priofits is their concern - when they start jerking the prices and business model around simply to squeeze more money from the user base...  That pisses people off.

If this were needed to keep EVE going - if it were needed to GROW EVE...  Many of the vets would mutter, maybe whine a bit but leave?  No.  They'd accept that this is necessary to keep their game going but actual facts are that these changes are only to fluff profits to pay for other things - not improving this game.

The entire decision trea on MT is for $$$ and the bulk of that money is going out the door.  Welcome to "cash cow" status.

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Originally posted by Eleazaros

You see for 2 years I've been in the game and watched as things have changed.

...

The change in attitude has been building for around 18 months now. 

---

There is no change in attitude, CCP is still the same as it always has been - working hard on image of arrogant, rough, 'hardcore' guys.

They haven't changed, only what happened now is that your rose tinted glasses slipped down of your nose and can see all the good and bad about CCP. I guess it will take you another 2 years to understand what CCP is doing now, as for that you also need some RL experience.

EVE Online while hobby and entertainment to you, is still a business and as such it is there in purpose of making money. The more, the better.

It is funny when you say:

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Originally posted by Eleazaros

Where they spend their priofits is their concern

---

in a post made of ranting about how they should or should not spent their money...

The game would not be around for so long and enjoying growing population if it didn't evolve and adapt to industry trends and changes.

You pretty much perfectly represent a 'vet' I was talking about, a 'vet' by subscribed time only. While playing the game for some time, still lacking knowledge and experience. 'Vets', any kind of veteran players, are quitting with every expansion, they are quitting all the time like everyone else.

It is only those who can learn will see that no sky is falling whenever someone says so because the game would be already dead 6 months from launch otherwise.

Only sky falling is the roof of your own dream castle and you can see the holes in your roof now, sometimes it can even rain through. No expansion will please everyone and not everyone can fix the holes in their roof or find better place to live. At the same time, some people just get tired of fixing and moving out and they leave. That is natural though as MMO isn't stale, their customers change and so does the game.

Welcome to your first major game change of the world of EVE Online ;-)

Eve online's growth is mostly attributed to word of mouth by existing players.

What sort of relationship should a company that's product grows by word of mouth have with it's customers?

What sort of image should that company have with it's customers?

A new direction for EVE may not necessarily be a bad thing. It could encourage new innovation and new ideas. CCP have also said that there's going to be nothing but vanity items in the store, and I can't see that policy changing any time soon. As for the mass exodus, it hasn't happened. This is now a dead subject with all of my friends and contacts.

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Originally posted by Hazelle
Eve online's growth is mostly attributed to word of mouth by existing players.

---

And you base your assumption on...?

Subjectively speaking, I think EVE Online is the most advertised MMO on western market. I see the ads everywhere through the whole year and they also release plentiful of trailers.

If anything, EVE growth is based on development model that perfect for marketing - 2 expansions per year, 2 great opportunities for marketing campaigns as well. The peaks of concurrent users around expansions speaks clearly for marketing or you suggest that somehow existing players start to 'recruit' people into a game with every expansion?

I think it is interesting that no one in this thread has mentioned the fact that CCP will be skipping their quarterly QENs for the indeterminate future. You know...the document with the most detailed population data on EVE Online.

I wonder why they did that...

Originally posted by Rian

I think it is interesting that no one in this thread has mentioned the fact that CCP will be skipping their quarterly QENs for the indeterminate future. You know...the document with the most detailed population data on EVE Online.

I wonder why they did that...

they probably thought that because the information is there every time you log in.. that they didnt need to.. or perhaps they just plan on releasing an anual consolidated report.. either way.. its not like they can be accused of keeping player numbers a secret..

Originally posted by Phry

Originally posted by Rian

I think it is interesting that no one in this thread has mentioned the fact that CCP will be skipping their quarterly QENs for the indeterminate future. You know...the document with the most detailed population data on EVE Online.

I wonder why they did that...

they probably thought that because the information is there every time you log in.. that they didnt need to.. or perhaps they just plan on releasing an anual consolidated report.. either way.. its not like they can be accused of keeping player numbers a secret..

Well there is that and then there is the rumour of mass exodus of players, i know more than a few who has quit for now, and yes i consider my self a vet since ive been actively playing Eve on and off since 2003, paying for it since then, 4 accounts, and the way their taking with the MT / Cash shop, even if only for clothing items and other stupid shit that doesnt have effect in combat, its still a bs way to go......

Don't like MT / Cash shop , and i never will......

Perhaps i should do as my friend, he got 1500$ for his account on eBay, that looks more and more interesting to each day that grows where CCP ignore's the hardcore playerbase.

Originally posted by Gdemami

 

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Originally posted by Hazelle
Eve online's growth is mostly attributed to word of mouth by existing players.

---

 

And you base your assumption on...?

Subjectively speaking, I think EVE Online is the most advertised MMO on western market. I see the ads everywhere through the whole year and they also release plentiful of trailers.

If anything, EVE growth is based on development model that perfect for marketing - 2 expansions per year, 2 great opportunities for marketing campaigns as well. The peaks of concurrent users around expansions speaks clearly for marketing or you suggest that somehow existing players start to 'recruit' people into a game with every expansion?

And people find out about all of that stuff by the billboard eve has at time square?  Nope.

The TV ads? Nope.

The awesome radio ads? Nope.

On the ads they place on sites like this?

The words: "EvE online  >Get a glimpse" with a shadowy cloud seems to be their current advertising campaign.  LOL so insightful! and don't forget that their ground breaking expansion "incarna" was released just a little over a month ago and all they ad today is "eve online >get a glimpse"

How about this - players recruit players and those players recruit more players and after each expansion people that once played the game resub or free trial to check it out?

---

Originally posted by Hazelle

And people find out about all of that stuff by the billboard eve has at time square? 

---

Oh, so you do not know how web advertising works nor you are familiar with marketing in general.

That's also an answer...

How do you think google make so much money? Web advertising is for quite time not something a customer has to bump into, web advertising is seeking the customers to provide them appropriate ad.

Yet again, you have nothing to even remotely back up your assumption.

My 5 cents worth....

As a 6 year veteran of EVE, with 3 accounts, i can safely say the direction Incarna has taken the game does worry me....  However, at this moment it dosent impact on my gameplay.  (I dont need a monocle, im just to sexy)...  But, i thnk if further expansions branch off into pay for win areas then thats me done, all accounts will be closed....

And that will be a sad day

Originally posted by akiraclass

My 5 cents worth....

As a 6 year veteran of EVE, with 3 accounts, i can safely say the direction Incarna has taken the game does worry me....  However, at this moment it dosent impact on my gameplay.  (I dont need a monocle, im just to sexy)...  But, i thnk if further expansions branch off into pay for win areas then thats me done, all accounts will be closed....

 

And that will be a sad day

 

Incarna has introduced some flair, but nothing more. I don't think CCP is going to radically change the game to pay to win, because frankly, they will lose too many accounts that way. I am not worried, at all.

Originally posted by Gdemami

 

---

Originally posted by Hazelle

And people find out about all of that stuff by the billboard eve has at time square? 

---

 

Oh, so you do not know how web advertising works nor you are familiar with marketing in general.

That's also an answer...

 

How do you think google make so much money? Web advertising is for quite time not something a customer has to bump into, web advertising is seeking the customers to provide them appropriate ad.

 

Yet again, you have nothing to even remotely back up your assumption.

 Yay! more ad hominum "arguements" from you...

CCP itself understands what word of mouth has brought them because they've rolled out the "eve is real" campaign.

The marketing folks at CCP are making "eve is real" their focal point to sell eve online.  CCP is using "eve is real" to get players to do what they do best, bring new players to eve online by discussing their experiences with the game - guess what that's called when you do that?  Go ahead, guess.  Yeah, it's called word of mouth, and if it's been such a small part of eve online why are they basing their current and only ad campaign on it?

If eve players don't bring in new players why does CCP have the buddy program?

Why does CCP have an extended free trial invite scheme for existing players?

Or we can just forget all of that and go by the words of Torfi Frans Olafsson (EVE Online's senior producer) in an interview with eurogamer in 2009 - "We didn't spike a million at launch, we grew incredibly slowly, but the connections and the relationships that formed as the game spread virally between people, more through word of mouth than advertising, I think made these bonds much more resilient."

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/eve-walking-in-stations-before-dust-514

Is that enough to back up my "assumptions"?

Originally posted by Hazelle

Originally posted by Gdemami

 

---

Originally posted by Hazelle

And people find out about all of that stuff by the billboard eve has at time square? 

---

 

Oh, so you do not know how web advertising works nor you are familiar with marketing in general.

That's also an answer...

 

How do you think google make so much money? Web advertising is for quite time not something a customer has to bump into, web advertising is seeking the customers to provide them appropriate ad.

 

Yet again, you have nothing to even remotely back up your assumption.

 Yay! more ad hominum "arguements" from you...

CCP itself understands what word of mouth has brought them because they've rolled out the "eve is real" campaign.

The marketing folks at CCP are making "eve is real" their focal point to sell eve online.  CCP is using "eve is real" to get players to do what they do best, bring new players to eve online by discussing their experiences with the game - guess what that's called when you do that?  Go ahead, guess.  Yeah, it's called word of mouth, and if it's been such a small part of eve online why are they basing their current and only ad campaign on it?

If eve players don't bring in new players why does CCP have the buddy program?

Why does CCP have an extended free trial invite scheme for existing players?

Or we can just forget all of that and go by the words of Torfi Frans Olafsson (EVE Online's senior producer) in an interview with eurogamer in 2009 - "We didn't spike a million at launch, we grew incredibly slowly, but the connections and the relationships that formed as the game spread virally between people, more through word of mouth than advertising, I think made these bonds much more resilient."

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/eve-walking-in-stations-before-dust-514

Is that enough to back up my "assumptions"?

pwned i think

Rift.. had advertising.. on the television, magazines etc.. now that .. is what i call advertising..  giving incentives to persuade players friends to join..  .. isnt that exactly what word of mouth means...

I see a lot of criticism about Eve around here. Here's my perspective as someone who signed up 2 days before Incarna launched.

First, I see no "bleeding of subscriptions" at all from the graphs - and even if there was I would first assume the global downturn in the economyas the culprit. I mean, if you're having trouble paying rent or finding a job Eve seems like it would be an easy candidate for expense cutting and far more likely than some en masse rage-quitting as many seemingly want it to be (arrr - teach 'em a lesson this will!)

Anyway, as I mentioned I don't have any knowledge of Eve prior to Incarna really and the incredibly buggy series of releases of Incarna had me concerned. I still can't load the station environment without crashing the game and I've got a very recent MacBook with a more than capable Radeon 6750M inside. So quality issues notwithstanding I'm finding Eve fascinating. I really don't care about station environments at this point though but I can see the possibilities down the road. Right now I'm in love with spaceships.

Now, as for CCP being guilty of wanting to increase profits to fund other ventures. I don't get this. This is what businesses do. It is their reason for being. Nobody's making me buy a monocle and for those that do - great. They're helping make Eve a better game by givving CCP more funds for development. I mean, if you're sitting on 9 billion ISK and nothing to do with it buy a monocle. It shows people you've been around the block and are sitting on a pile of ISK. So what. Now, I absolutely agree that if there was to be gold ammo sold for real world money that would alter the landscape for the worse but I think CCP understands this.

I beleive I read somewhere that player action in Dust 514 will have real-time repurcussions in Eve. Personally, the thought of Dust 514 and Eve intertwined and influencing each other is incredible. It makes sense for planetside activity to have repercussions in Eve space and vice versa. That is deep man. And by deep I mean depth of gameplay. Combine that with real-time player character interactions in station that Incarna seems to be heading in and the scope of playing experience would be unrivalled. The only problem I have right now with Dust 514 is that it's PS3 only.

Looking at the entire scope of what will become the Eve Universe all other MMORPG's are one-dimensional and tiny in comparison. If they make some mistakes along the way so be it. That is the price of innovation and I don't see any other game developer taking on anything as complex as what CCP has and will be doing.

Now, will I be one of those crusty vets 5 years from now that doesn't want to see anything new introduced to the world I've grown accustomed to? Perhaps. Aversion to change is part of human nature but right now I haven't yet "crustified" and see Eve and it's roadmap for what it is - impressive and unrivalled.

Originally posted by astromac

Now, will I be one of those crusty vets 5 years from now that doesn't want to see anything new introduced to the world I've grown accustomed to? Perhaps. Aversion to change is part of human nature but right now I haven't yet "crustified" and see Eve and it's roadmap for what it is - impressive and unrivalled.

Welcome to EVE, Astromac. I'm glad you're enjoying the game. I've played for a while now, but I'm still consistently pleased by its gameplay, depth, and freedom. It's good to hear that some new players aren't persuaded by the trolls to believe that EVE is dying, especially when that is untrue.

And I also hope that you don't become a crusty vet that complains about everything while still not having the cajones to leave the game and/or forums. It's sad how those people waste their time on a game that they hate.

Here's to hoping that CCP continues to makes changes that generate money while maintaining the integrity of a universe in which spaceships go "pew pew".

Originally posted by astromac

I see a lot of criticism about Eve around here. Here's my perspective as someone who signed up 2 days before Incarna launched.

First, I see no "bleeding of subscriptions" at all from the graphs - and even if there was I would first assume the global downturn in the economyas the culprit. I mean, if you're having trouble paying rent or finding a job Eve seems like it would be an easy candidate for expense cutting and far more likely than some en masse rage-quitting as many seemingly want it to be (arrr - teach 'em a lesson this will!)

Anyway, as I mentioned I don't have any knowledge of Eve prior to Incarna really and the incredibly buggy series of releases of Incarna had me concerned. I still can't load the station environment without crashing the game and I've got a very recent MacBook with a more than capable Radeon 6750M inside. So quality issues notwithstanding I'm finding Eve fascinating. I really don't care about station environments at this point though but I can see the possibilities down the road. Right now I'm in love with spaceships.

Now, as for CCP being guilty of wanting to increase profits to fund other ventures. I don't get this. This is what businesses do. It is their reason for being. Nobody's making me buy a monocle and for those that do - great. They're helping make Eve a better game by givving CCP more funds for development. I mean, if you're sitting on 9 billion ISK and nothing to do with it buy a monocle. It shows people you've been around the block and are sitting on a pile of ISK. So what. Now, I absolutely agree that if there was to be gold ammo sold for real world money that would alter the landscape for the worse but I think CCP understands this.

I beleive I read somewhere that player action in Dust 514 will have real-time repurcussions in Eve. Personally, the thought of Dust 514 and Eve intertwined and influencing each other is incredible. It makes sense for planetside activity to have repercussions in Eve space and vice versa. That is deep man. And by deep I mean depth of gameplay. Combine that with real-time player character interactions in station that Incarna seems to be heading in and the scope of playing experience would be unrivalled. The only problem I have right now with Dust 514 is that it's PS3 only.

Looking at the entire scope of what will become the Eve Universe all other MMORPG's are one-dimensional and tiny in comparison. If they make some mistakes along the way so be it. That is the price of innovation and I don't see any other game developer taking on anything as complex as what CCP has and will be doing.

Now, will I be one of those crusty vets 5 years from now that doesn't want to see anything new introduced to the world I've grown accustomed to? Perhaps. Aversion to change is part of human nature but right now I haven't yet "crustified" and see Eve and it's roadmap for what it is - impressive and unrivalled.

Great post, welcome to EvE. I couldn't agree more.

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by Teala

If EVE does start a steady drop in players in the coming months the only people at fault at the ones running the game.   Players have no control over the way a game is managed.  If CCP wishes to drive players away rather than bringing them in that is their choice.  Their money hungry attitude with the BS $99 licensing fee, then the outrageous MT prices for virtual goods, their constant thumbing of the noses at the player base, their lack of follow through with the CQ's and release of Incarna(WIS), their lack of action against botting, their lack of concern for making null and low sec nothing but blob and cap warfare and finding away of fixing it, and their lack of making the new player experience better is their fault and their fault alone. 

EVE could be one of  the best MMORPG's on the Internet, but clearly CCP feels that they no longer need to actually work on EVE, they are just sort of letting it glide as is instead of fixing what the have and making it better.  No if EVE takes a nose dive, it'll be CCP's fault and their fault alone.

Glad someone is finally noticing it. I have had the opinion for years that CCP is just stringing people along. I mean just take this station walking, how dificult can it be to implement a first or third person 3D view? Full fledged FPS games have been released for years doing that and it is taking CCP years and they still havent got it done yet?

I can bet that the only reason is that they simply dont want to spend much money on it, that is why it is being developed so slowly. Eve is just a money cow for CCP and they are squeezing as much as that can from it.

I guess I am the only one that believes WIS/Incarna/whatever adds nothing for the reasons that I play EVE online. I guess I also are the only that also wishes that EVE stays EVE and not another version of... SWG? or a better(?) version of STO.

Ofcourse they can implement 3D view, bleh, but stop and ask yourself why. And then ask yourself, really? Why?

Perhaps this latest expansion also had some players that realised, with WIS, this is not my "EVE Game" anymore.