Well for most people space isn't the main reason for playing tor. You wanna know what space MMo game really sucks? EVE Online. Cross between an RTS and Ogame, one big bore fest.

Originally posted by azmundai

I have no notion that it is possible to do by launch (we already have the fruits of  that labor with on-rails space combat). We are firmly in the, please, this needs to be done asap section of the discussion.

Well we'll see how serious Bioware was about following the players wishes in this regard, I can't see even those who like the tunnel idea, not wanting to see it expanded on or replaced all together with something deeper. Unless it comes to light players actually don't want more, or Bioware just tries to say we don't.

They've opened the proverbial Pandoras box on this matter all by themselves. In the future they're going to A: have to live up to that expectation they set, or B: Look the fool and liar.

Originally posted by tillamook

Well for most people space isn't the main reason for playing tor.

I could say the complete opposite. Of course you would call me a liar .. so I wont even bother.

Originally posted by azmundai

Originally posted by tillamook

Well for most people space isn't the main reason for playing tor.

I could say the complete opposite. Of course you would call me a liar .. so I wont even bother.

Well, I just base it off what most people are talking about, and that's ground game. Space seems almost an after thought for most people. Things could change after launch if folks decide space is important to them. But at the moment I'm not seeing it beyond a few random threads here and there, and mostly filled with the same people bickering about it.

For the "star wars fans?" that are saying that a Star Wars game must have space combat because, duh, it's *Star* Wars. Past Star Wars games without real space combat:

Star Wars: Dark Forces

Star Wars Jedi Knight: Dark Forces II

Star Wars Jedi Knight: Mysteries of the Sith

Star Wars Jedi Knight II: Jedi Outcast

Star Wars Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy

Star Wars: Episode I: Racer

Star Wars: Racer Arcade

Star Wars: Racer Revenge

Star Wars: Galactive Battlegrounds

Star Wars: Galactic Battlegrounds: Clone Campaigns

Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic

Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II The Sith Lords

The Force Unleashed

The Force Unleashed II

Star Wars: The Empire At War

Star Wars: The Empire At War: Forces of Corruption

Star Wars: Republic Commando

Star Wars: Galaxies (pre-expansion)

and the list could go on...

That's a LOT. And the games that did have space combat usually made space combat as one of the primary focuses of the game: i.e. Xwing, Rebel Assault, Rogue Squadron, Starfighter, Battlefront.

And theres a long list of games that were focused on arcade space combat, similar to what SWTOR will include at launch (in addition to u know it's main party based character gameplay).

Also in the movies I, II, III, IV, V, VI huge majority of them take place on a planet or inside of a ship's interior, not in space. SWTOR launching with arcade space combat is surprising, that their including space combat at all...

Originally posted by GreenHell

If you can name one mmo that had both complete land and complete space game play at launch then I might be more inclined to listne.

And STO is not the answer.

Also, people people shouldn't be talking about providing game play "within their budget" because last I checked, no one saw the breakdown of their budget, man hours put in, etc.

They have years to expand upon space if they so desire.

For now they give the players a mini-game.

Also, I don't trust rumors becuase I would have to actually no the sources of those rumors.

Personally, I hate car/racing games. If I tried one I would probably pan it, make my statement and then someone would say that rumor has it that the racing game was bad.

 

All because I, who hate racing games, would never have given it a thumbs up in the first place.

So because no game has had this at launch no game ever will or should? No game has had full VO at launch does that mean that TOR can't possibly have it?

This is supposed to be the next big thing in MMO gaming and space (beyond a mini-game) was not added to a SW game? Really? This is STAR WARS!!  Why wouldn't you want to be able to explore and fight in a free roaming space setting?

Not at all.

but I suspect that other games didn't have it because it's like creating a completely different game. it's almost like creating an entirely other mmo. From what I gather some players are looking for all the good land/planet stuff and then some version of EVE as the other component.

Of course they don't have to go that far but would players be happy with what STO has as their space component?

I'd rather them give me a min-game and then give me great space combat/flight "what have you" than feel the need to add this whole other component that might take away from giving us a great mmo.

If you've read any of what the developers have stated they say that Star Wars is not about "exploring" anything but about very specific reasons to be in space. They are interested in making movie moments, not giving players a Star Trek (read: NOT STO) exploration option.

They are interested in creating a very storied mmo where each section relates to the story.

Why would I want them to give me space exploration when Star Wars was never about "boldly going where no man has gone before"?

Do I want space flight? SURE! Do I want space flight at the cost of releasing a buggy unfinished game? No. I'd rather wait.

Of course, one rebuttal might be "well then they shouldn't put in all that voice acting and they should do away with the story thing and give us a more open universe".

Well, that's not what bioware does. They are story related. Every part of their game is going to reflect that.

Originally posted by azmundai

Originally posted by xKingdomx

Originally posted by azmundai

What % of the movies had light saber battles? What if that was a minigame where you got to use light sabers against little floating driods instead of the (or what looks like the) intense amount of time they spent making light sabers collide with many different animations, etc. Lots of development time there.

How much time was spent dancing and hanging out in a cantina? Yet we apparently have these awesomely designed little RPG elements as part of our cities, not little 1p mini games.

If yer talking about whats in the movies is in the game .. how can you deny that the whole scene with luke and leia firing away at tie fighters as han flies the millenium faulken .. that is one of the greatest parts of an of the movies. One of the greatest parts of I is young anekin in a space shit bouncing in and out of a space station. well that and jar jar binks >.<

lol I laughed at "space shit"

The whole point for IV was the last 10 minutes of the movie, and later VI .. flying a ship and destroying the death star.

As I've said before .. how do you have a bounty hunter / smuggler story line .. and not have the semblance of kitting out your starship or fighting off enemy fighters while smuggling cargo in the fastest hunk of junk in the galaxy.

 

And finally ... again .. it's on rails ... just like a lot of the rest of the game. To me this is very contrary to the direction MMOs should be going in. 

No offence, but if you think SWTOR is very contrary to the direction MMOG should be going, just don't support it, don't buy it, ignore it.

I'm pretty sure the amount of light sabre action trumps the amount of spaceship battles, phantoum menace had the qui-gon and obiwan battling darth maul for as long as the space battle. attack of the clones had anakin with obiwan against that old dude, then yoda as well plus others small sabre fights in the arena.

Revenge of the sith had so many the only space fight was like at the start when anakin flies through the battle.

new hope had more space fights, empire strikes back had vadar against luke, return of the jedi had vadar against luke again.

Not mention they use lightsabre for a lot of other ultility stuff as well, opening lock doors etc.

First, only forum fan boys want anyone to ignore their game. As i just said in another thread, bad publicity == publicity. Rest assured Bioware / Lucas is glad people like me are keeping these forums buzzing with what we think.

We really don't have to sit here and argue the seconds. Space combat is just as integral to star wars as light sabers. You can disagree with that .. but for me its maybe more so in terms of how the two concepts effect the idea of an MMO ... let alone the whole story aspect which they threw millions of dollars into instead of space combat and a bunch of other standard mmo features.

Nice call on me being a fanboy, but too bad I can't really mind what people likes to label me, to me, star wars isn't a typical sci-fi genre, but instead a space fantasy story. Sci-fi usually provides an explanation to almost every technology or event, star wars doesn't, The Force is almost like a religion, an ancient force. So for it to not include the usual space travel things, I don't really mind in the end, I care about the story, not just how I go about in space. Star Wars isn't about light sabre, space fighting, but it is about the story, the political turmoil and conflict is what made Star Wars so great, interpersonal relationships. We identify Anakin/Darth Vadar as a character, not just a jedi, sith or a gifted engineer, but a main character, a character whose choices can affect the course of the galactic empire. Thats what made Star Wars so great, the story, and thats what I'm playing SWTOR for. The Story.

Will I reject if Bioware tries to upgrade the space combat later with an expansion? Hell no, but as for now, I'm happy with what they put in.

Lastly, I'm not a coporate person, so do I care about publicity? No, bioware and EA does, but not me. So I stand by "No offence, but if you think SWTOR is very contrary to the direction MMOG should be going, just don't support it, don't buy it, ignore it."

The way i see it is

1) this game hasnt been launched yet so is a new game

2) many if not most MMO's didnt have some major mechanic or part at launch

3) game companys and especialy bioware thrive on added content and expansions

4) i prefer a game to master 1 thing than to try and master everything and fail (swg,WoW,STO,AoC ect. ect.)

5) if you object so much DONT PLAY IT.......

im pretty certain than more than 90% of people who are going to play and buy know what is going to be in game its hardly a sleeper title is it. 

Keep people informed yes make your point of view fine will it make the game flop or fly NO

So boys and girls keep it civil.

My view is as long as its launched with a good foundation to build upon and it keeps me wanting to play Sucess.

Not to mention, somthing like more in depth space content makes for a great expansion. Perhaps a reason for holding off to begin with. I just want a solid combat system to start, heh.

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by GreenHell

If you can name one mmo that had both complete land and complete space game play at launch then I might be more inclined to listne.

And STO is not the answer.

Also, people people shouldn't be talking about providing game play "within their budget" because last I checked, no one saw the breakdown of their budget, man hours put in, etc.

They have years to expand upon space if they so desire.

For now they give the players a mini-game.

Also, I don't trust rumors becuase I would have to actually no the sources of those rumors.

Personally, I hate car/racing games. If I tried one I would probably pan it, make my statement and then someone would say that rumor has it that the racing game was bad.

 

All because I, who hate racing games, would never have given it a thumbs up in the first place.

So because no game has had this at launch no game ever will or should? No game has had full VO at launch does that mean that TOR can't possibly have it?

This is supposed to be the next big thing in MMO gaming and space (beyond a mini-game) was not added to a SW game? Really? This is STAR WARS!!  Why wouldn't you want to be able to explore and fight in a free roaming space setting?

Not at all.

but I suspect that other games didn't have it because it's like creating a completely different game. it's almost like creating an entirely other mmo. From what I gather some players are looking for all the good land/planet stuff and then some version of EVE as the other component.

Of course they don't have to go that far but would players be happy with what STO has as their space component?

I'd rather them give me a min-game and then give me great space combat/flight "what have you" than feel the need to add this whole other component that might take away from giving us a great mmo.

If you've read any of what the developers have stated they say that Star Wars is not about "exploring" anything but about very specific reasons to be in space. They are interested in making movie moments, not giving players a Star Trek (read: NOT STO) exploration option.

They are interested in creating a very storied mmo where each section relates to the story.

Why would I want them to give me space exploration when Star Wars was never about "boldly going where no man has gone before"?

Do I want space flight? SURE! Do I want space flight at the cost of releasing a buggy unfinished game? No. I'd rather wait.

Of course, one rebuttal might be "well then they shouldn't put in all that voice acting and they should do away with the story thing and give us a more open universe".

Well, that's not what bioware does. They are story related. Every part of their game is going to reflect that.

 Great read here I agree totally.  I could be alright with Star Wars having some huge space exploration component if it was something they could have pulled off without making the rest of the game suffer but that is a pretty masive undertaking that they are better off not forcing the issue on.

Releasing TOR without fully functional space combat is as bad as Turbine releasing a LOTR MMO without a playable evil faction.

The X-Wing/Tie Fighter series was the perfect template for them to use.

Originally posted by Normike

For the "star wars fans?" that are saying that a Star Wars game must have space combat because, duh, it's *Star* Wars. Past Star Wars games without real space combat:

Star Wars: Dark Forces

Star Wars Jedi Knight: Dark Forces II

Star Wars Jedi Knight: Mysteries of the Sith

Star Wars Jedi Knight II: Jedi Outcast

Star Wars Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy

Star Wars: Episode I: Racer

Star Wars: Racer Arcade

Star Wars: Racer Revenge

Star Wars: Galactive Battlegrounds

Star Wars: Galactic Battlegrounds: Clone Campaigns

Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic

Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II The Sith Lords

The Force Unleashed

The Force Unleashed II

Star Wars: The Empire At War

Star Wars: The Empire At War: Forces of Corruption

Star Wars: Republic Commando

Star Wars: Galaxies (pre-expansion)

and the list could go on...

That's a LOT. And the games that did have space combat usually made space combat as one of the primary focuses of the game: i.e. Xwing, Rebel Assault, Rogue Squadron, Starfighter, Battlefront.

And theres a long list of games that were focused on arcade space combat, similar to what SWTOR will include at launch (in addition to u know it's main party based character gameplay).

Also in the movies I, II, III, IV, V, VI huge majority of them take place on a planet or inside of a ship's interior, not in space. SWTOR launching with arcade space combat is surprising, that their including space combat at all...

 Finally, someone else that has a clue.  If you are one of those thinks that space combat is what Star Wars is all about you have the wrong genre, that would be Star Trek.  Get a clue people this isn't a X-Wing vs Tie Fighter MMO, it's Star Wars, and if you paid any attention to any of the movies you will notice that the vast majority of them take place on a planet, not joyriding around the galaxy looking to pick a fight.  All the space scenes were really for was to show off cool special effects.  If you really want free/open space travel/combat there's always Eve or STO, play those and have fun, otherwise see ya in game... whenever it goes live.

Originally posted by Latronus

Originally posted by Normike

For the "star wars fans?" that are saying that a Star Wars game must have space combat because, duh, it's *Star* Wars. Past Star Wars games without real space combat:

Star Wars: Dark Forces

Star Wars Jedi Knight: Dark Forces II

Star Wars Jedi Knight: Mysteries of the Sith

Star Wars Jedi Knight II: Jedi Outcast

Star Wars Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy

Star Wars: Episode I: Racer

Star Wars: Racer Arcade

Star Wars: Racer Revenge

Star Wars: Galactive Battlegrounds

Star Wars: Galactic Battlegrounds: Clone Campaigns

Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic

Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II The Sith Lords

The Force Unleashed

The Force Unleashed II

Star Wars: The Empire At War

Star Wars: The Empire At War: Forces of Corruption

Star Wars: Republic Commando

Star Wars: Galaxies (pre-expansion)

and the list could go on...

That's a LOT. And the games that did have space combat usually made space combat as one of the primary focuses of the game: i.e. Xwing, Rebel Assault, Rogue Squadron, Starfighter, Battlefront.

And theres a long list of games that were focused on arcade space combat, similar to what SWTOR will include at launch (in addition to u know it's main party based character gameplay).

Also in the movies I, II, III, IV, V, VI huge majority of them take place on a planet or inside of a ship's interior, not in space. SWTOR launching with arcade space combat is surprising, that their including space combat at all...

 Finally, someone else that has a clue.  If you are one of those thinks that space combat is what Star Wars is all about you have the wrong genre, that would be Star Trek.  Get a clue people this isn't a X-Wing vs Tie Fighter MMO, it's Star Wars, and if you paid any attention to any of the movies you will notice that the vast majority of them take place on a planet, not joyriding around the galaxy looking to pick a fight.  All the space scenes were really for was to show off cool special effects.  If you really want free/open space travel/combat there's always Eve or STO, play those and have fun, otherwise see ya in game... whenever it goes live.

 Let's take it that way, mind you?

Let's say a good competitor (ex: Blizzard) makes another SW MMO with full fledged 3D space sim with much less story based content (to be fair) I bet my shirt the competitor would blow out TOR subscriptions in the long term.

I dunno, wouldn't get my money.  I'm not looking for a space flight sim.

Originally posted by Deewe

Originally posted by Latronus

Originally posted by Normike

For the "star wars fans?" that are saying that a Star Wars game must have space combat because, duh, it's *Star* Wars. Past Star Wars games without real space combat:

Star Wars: Dark Forces

Star Wars Jedi Knight: Dark Forces II

Star Wars Jedi Knight: Mysteries of the Sith

Star Wars Jedi Knight II: Jedi Outcast

Star Wars Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy

Star Wars: Episode I: Racer

Star Wars: Racer Arcade

Star Wars: Racer Revenge

Star Wars: Galactive Battlegrounds

Star Wars: Galactic Battlegrounds: Clone Campaigns

Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic

Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II The Sith Lords

The Force Unleashed

The Force Unleashed II

Star Wars: The Empire At War

Star Wars: The Empire At War: Forces of Corruption

Star Wars: Republic Commando

Star Wars: Galaxies (pre-expansion)

and the list could go on...

That's a LOT. And the games that did have space combat usually made space combat as one of the primary focuses of the game: i.e. Xwing, Rebel Assault, Rogue Squadron, Starfighter, Battlefront.

And theres a long list of games that were focused on arcade space combat, similar to what SWTOR will include at launch (in addition to u know it's main party based character gameplay).

Also in the movies I, II, III, IV, V, VI huge majority of them take place on a planet or inside of a ship's interior, not in space. SWTOR launching with arcade space combat is surprising, that their including space combat at all...

 Finally, someone else that has a clue.  If you are one of those thinks that space combat is what Star Wars is all about you have the wrong genre, that would be Star Trek.  Get a clue people this isn't a X-Wing vs Tie Fighter MMO, it's Star Wars, and if you paid any attention to any of the movies you will notice that the vast majority of them take place on a planet, not joyriding around the galaxy looking to pick a fight.  All the space scenes were really for was to show off cool special effects.  If you really want free/open space travel/combat there's always Eve or STO, play those and have fun, otherwise see ya in game... whenever it goes live.

 Let's take it that way, mind you?

 

Let's say a good competitor (ex: Blizzard) makes another SW MMO with full fledged 3D space sim with much less story based content (to be fair) I bet my shirt the competitor would blow out TOR subscriptions in the long term.

Sure, if each one of those players can pay for a hundred subs, it will definitely blow everyone out of the water.

ps: your shirt better be real nice if you are betting that on this topic ;p

Originally posted by Deewe

Originally posted by Latronus

Originally posted by Normike

...

 Finally, someone else that has a clue.  If you are one of those thinks that space combat is what Star Wars is all about you have the wrong genre, that would be Star Trek.  Get a clue people this isn't a X-Wing vs Tie Fighter MMO, it's Star Wars, and if you paid any attention to any of the movies you will notice that the vast majority of them take place on a planet, not joyriding around the galaxy looking to pick a fight.  All the space scenes were really for was to show off cool special effects.  If you really want free/open space travel/combat there's always Eve or STO, play those and have fun, otherwise see ya in game... whenever it goes live.

 Let's take it that way, mind you?

 

Let's say a good competitor (ex: Blizzard) makes another SW MMO with full fledged 3D space sim with much less story based content (to be fair) I bet my shirt the competitor would blow out TOR subscriptions in the long term.

 Maybe, but maybe not.

I've bashed the rail shooter in the past because I feel like it's just something that was "tacked on" so that BW could say they had space combat.  I still feel that way.

That said, I wouldn't have really been upset if SWTOR had NO space combat at all.  Instead of thinking about SWTOR as "Star Wars" try thinking about it as a game.

As a game, SWTOR is aiming to appeal to certain demographics.  Namely, traditional MMORPG fans, Bioware fans, and Star Wars fans.  SWTOR appeals to MMORPG fans and Bioware fans by the way that the game plays, it looks like it's going to play like a hybrid of Bioware and WoW.

It is quite possible that space combat just would not be attractive gameplay to these people.  So from BW's perspective, why would they spend tons of time and money developing a feature that may divide their audience?  It kind of makes more sense to just focus on the type of gameplay that you know your core audience likes.

I mean, I personally would love a SW MMORPG with a space flight sim like Xwing vs. TIE Fighter inside of it, but I realize that the ground MMORPG and the space flight sim would be vastly different games.  There will be a lot of fans that will just want to play one or the other.

It's kind of like saying let's make a fantasy MMORPG that's like WoW but also contains a game where you command your troops that's like Warcraft 3.  It sounds great on paper, but who does this game appeal to?  WoW fans or RTS fans?  There will be plenty WoW fans that just don't like RTS's.

My guess is their budget ran out when they wanted to work on space gameplay.

Well hey at least we get space gameplay, many previous star wars games didn't have any space involvement at all.

And who knows maybe they will give us an expansion upgrading the entire space experience.

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by Deewe

Originally posted by Latronus

Originally posted by Normike

...

 Finally, someone else that has a clue.  If you are one of those thinks that space combat is what Star Wars is all about you have the wrong genre, that would be Star Trek.  Get a clue people this isn't a X-Wing vs Tie Fighter MMO, it's Star Wars, and if you paid any attention to any of the movies you will notice that the vast majority of them take place on a planet, not joyriding around the galaxy looking to pick a fight.  All the space scenes were really for was to show off cool special effects.  If you really want free/open space travel/combat there's always Eve or STO, play those and have fun, otherwise see ya in game... whenever it goes live.

 Let's take it that way, mind you?

 

Let's say a good competitor (ex: Blizzard) makes another SW MMO with full fledged 3D space sim with much less story based content (to be fair) I bet my shirt the competitor would blow out TOR subscriptions in the long term.

 Maybe, but maybe not.

I've bashed the rail shooter in the past because I feel like it's just something that was "tacked on" so that BW could say they had space combat.  I still feel that way.

That said, I wouldn't have really been upset if SWTOR had NO space combat at all.  Instead of thinking about SWTOR as "Star Wars" try thinking about it as a game.

As a game, SWTOR is aiming to appeal to certain demographics.  Namely, traditional MMORPG fans, Bioware fans, and Star Wars fans.  SWTOR appeals to MMORPG fans and Bioware fans by the way that the game plays, it looks like it's going to play like a hybrid of Bioware and WoW.

It is quite possible that space combat just would not be attractive gameplay to these people.  So from BW's perspective, why would they spend tons of time and money developing a feature that may divide their audience?  It kind of makes more sense to just focus on the type of gameplay that you know your core audience likes.

I mean, I personally would love a SW MMORPG with a space flight sim like Xwing vs. TIE Fighter inside of it, but I realize that the ground MMORPG and the space flight sim would be vastly different games.  There will be a lot of fans that will just want to play one or the other.

It's kind of like saying let's make a fantasy MMORPG that's like WoW but also contains a game where you command your troops that's like Warcraft 3.  It sounds great on paper, but who does this game appeal to?  WoW fans or RTS fans?  There will be plenty WoW fans that just don't like RTS's.

Main reason is in the long term the VO story part will get old. 

Space will appeal players that weren't fond of space sim when they'll start looking for new things to do in their MMO.

Originally posted by azmundai

If yer talking about whats in the movies is in the game .. how can you deny that the whole scene with luke and leia firing away at tie fighters as han flies the millenium faulken .. that is one of the greatest parts of an of the movies. One of the greatest parts of I is young anekin in a space shit bouncing in and out of a space station. well that and jar jar binks >.<

The whole point for IV was the last 10 minutes of the movie, and later VI .. flying a ship and destroying the death star.

 

As I've said before .. how do you have a bounty hunter / smuggler story line .. and not have the semblance of kitting out your starship or fighting off enemy fighters while smuggling cargo in the fastest hunk of junk in the galaxy.

 

And finally ... again .. it's on rails ... just like a lot of the rest of the game. To me this is very contrary to the direction MMOs should be going in. 

Isn't this exactly what you are getting in SWTOR space combat? You can be Luke or Leia and firing away at tie fighters? or be Young Anakin bouncing in and out of a space station? or even lando going into death star, firing away at it?

If I understand the lore correctly, Star Wars spaceship is always been control by the droid behind or using computers, flight patterns or formations, speed and direction etc. You only see Han using manuvers to avoid enemies in a short range, but spaceship control has always been done by a droid or computer.

It seems to me, SWTOR is exactly the space combat you are looking for :)

Too be honest with you guys I would rather have a rail shooter that directs me where to go and guides me in the right direction then have complete freedom to roam and end up flying into a bunch of enemy fighters or into one of those cruisers that we saw.And besides seeing the Space combat isn't the same as playing it.You can say what you want about the space combat right now but when it comes out you can make the real judgement.