I have a belief..if developers say we will work on after luanch your not goin to see it ever or until expansion time.Now true it on rails, but i'm postive that the rest of the game has consumed so much time and resources,that coding full on space combat is a huge project. So yeah, who knows.

But i do feel that people will use this rail shooter discussion to force Bioware to make a statement about what they intend to add to it down the road. Truth is, if they intended it to be something more it would have been developed along with ground game.

In truth just my opinion, they should have made it much better and off the rails. this will come back to haunt them if the game does so so, and sub retention starts to fall away after the first 30 days. if anything it will be a subject that get some heated discussions after release.

I feel it should have been developed side by side with the ground game.

Originally posted by jeremyjodes

I have a belief..if developers say we will work on after luanch your not goin to see it ever or until expansion time.Now true it on rails, but i'm postive that the rest of the game has consumed so much time and resources,that coding full on space combat is a huge project. So yeah, who knows.

But i do feel that people will use this rail shooter discussion to force Bioware to make a statement about what they intend to add to it down the road. Truth is, if they intended it to be something more it would have been developed along with ground game.

In truth just my opinion, they should have made it much better and off the rails. this will come back to haunt them if the game does so so, and sub retention starts to fall away after the first 30 days. if anything it will be a subject that get some heated discussions after release.

I feel it should have been developed side by side with the ground game.

 The problem with the mandatory space mentality is that it puts the ground game on rails. I played SWG and didn't touch JTL for quite a while. I liked not having to do the space game but being able to If I wanted. If space was built to be as important as ground (or was a primary consideration [to tone that statement down a bit]) then you dilute the ground game. They have focused on their character driven personal story, so that tells me space is an ancillary way to move through the frame star wars-style.  

I agree that if subs decline soon enough to be a problem this will be a popular drumbeat, but so will: Theme park design, not enough classes, not enough races, group number too small, weapon restrictions, etc.

Originally posted by Meridion

This is like Rebel Assault...

Aw, good old times... expected from the upcoming game that takes rollercoaster-game to the next level

M

I think Rebal Assault looks better. In TOR's space game all the enemies come in from the left or right from behind the ship and don't even fly like they are trying to do anything but acrobatics. In Rebal Assault ships fly in from multiple directions and there's a lot of background stuff going on with ships flying around and shooting at things; quite amazing for such a limited format chosen for that series.

It is an arcade game that I can play on my iPad or my smart phone which is where it belongs. I would enjoy it there for free

Originally posted by aktalat

Originally posted by Deewe

Originally posted by aktalat

Originally posted by Deewe

Not even as good as Star Fox.

 

The rumors are out. I was prepared but not to that extend. I care, I'm disappointed.

 

And I thought JTL sucked :/

Not sure what you mean... If you're saying the JTL (Jump to Lightspeed) expansion for Star Wars Galaxies "sucked" that's just not true, in fact I'd say combat in space was hugely better then on the ground even pre-CU. The space game in SWG had a logic to it, the ground game was a lot of /headHit3 keyboard mashing. 

It seems disappointing that SW:TOR won't have open spacefields the way EVE or even SWG has, but I guess that's the "rails" part kicking in.

Sorry let me rephrase it. Compared to X-Wing, Tie-Fighter, X-Wing vs Tie-Fighter, X-Wing alliance: JTL space combat sucked.

=> From the flight dynamics down to the UI those game were 110% better. <==

 

I don't blame the devs though it was rushed out by the decision makers.

And from videos I've seen on Youtube you're right, the SWTOR space game game is a minigame, which is sad...

BUT

If you remember SWG didn't release with space... actually I remember running on foot to Anchorhead and dying horribly several times because they didn't even have speeders, never mind spaceships! So my guess is maye take a "wait and see" because if they have a limited space game to start, and then add more 'sand' to it later it could actually be pretty interesting :)

I know, it's hopeful thinking, but so far Bioware's reputation hasn't been as tarnished as SOE's when it comes to listening to players :)

2 things:

First BioWare stated in an interview with Darth hater that from past experience with SWG, they knew space had to be in at launch. It was PR bull* but here the link

Second, you can't really add PvP nor multiplayer PvE content that does not sucks with the actual system. Now consider adding a second fully fledged 3D space sim in TOR on top of the tunnel shooter == headaches for the devs and it can ruin the whole thing. Once the new simulator is live:

• What do you do with the actual tunnel shooter?
• Do you now focus the  the single player PvE system on both system, only one, which one?
• When you add space content, to which system do you add it? You have limited resources.... which player base do you want to make unhappy?
• How do you balance rewards for the 3D space sim vs the tube shooter ?
• How about new players needing to learn 2 wholey different gameplay for space combat?

Originally posted by Deewe

Originally posted by aktalat

Originally posted by Deewe

Originally posted by aktalat

Originally posted by Deewe

Not even as good as Star Fox.

 

The rumors are out. I was prepared but not to that extend. I care, I'm disappointed.

 

And I thought JTL sucked :/

Not sure what you mean... If you're saying the JTL (Jump to Lightspeed) expansion for Star Wars Galaxies "sucked" that's just not true, in fact I'd say combat in space was hugely better then on the ground even pre-CU. The space game in SWG had a logic to it, the ground game was a lot of /headHit3 keyboard mashing. 

It seems disappointing that SW:TOR won't have open spacefields the way EVE or even SWG has, but I guess that's the "rails" part kicking in.

Sorry let me rephrase it. Compared to X-Wing, Tie-Fighter, X-Wing vs Tie-Fighter, X-Wing alliance: JTL space combat sucked.

=> From the flight dynamics down to the UI those game were 110% better. <==

 

I don't blame the devs though it was rushed out by the decision makers.

And from videos I've seen on Youtube you're right, the SWTOR space game game is a minigame, which is sad...

BUT

If you remember SWG didn't release with space... actually I remember running on foot to Anchorhead and dying horribly several times because they didn't even have speeders, never mind spaceships! So my guess is maye take a "wait and see" because if they have a limited space game to start, and then add more 'sand' to it later it could actually be pretty interesting :)

I know, it's hopeful thinking, but so far Bioware's reputation hasn't been as tarnished as SOE's when it comes to listening to players :)

2 things:

First BioWare stated in an interview with Darth hater that from past experience with SWG, they knew space had to be in at launch. It was PR bull* but here the link

Second, you can't really add PvP nor multiplayer PvE content that does not sucks with the actual system. Now consider adding a second fully fledged 3D space sim in TOR on top of the tunnel shooter == headaches for the devs and it can ruin the whole thing. Once the new simulator is live:

• What do you do with the actual tunnel shooter?
• Do you now focus the  the single player PvE system on both system, only one, which one?
• When you add space content, to which system do you add it? You have limited resources.... which player base do you want to make unhappy?
• How do you balance rewards for the 3D space sim vs the tube shooter ?
• How about new players needing to learn 2 wholey different gameplay for space combat?

Having 2 space sims in a game seems weird. It's like having 2 ground based combat system: a classic MMO one for PvE and then later on you add a FPS one for PvP...???

     The Devs can add whatever they want after launch and it doesn't affect anything else unless they want it too.  As is the space mini-game can stay just what it is and add a new map once in a while.  Then a new "space" can be made much more sim like and throw in some PvP to make that crowd happy as well even later.  Using this carrot approach would keep people happy for a long time with only nibbles added here and there.  The only argument against having two space games I can see would be IF the graphics were different and I see no reason they would need to be.

Originally posted by Deewe

Originally posted by aktalat

Originally posted by Deewe

Originally posted by aktalat

Originally posted by Deewe

Not even as good as Star Fox.

 

The rumors are out. I was prepared but not to that extend. I care, I'm disappointed.

 

And I thought JTL sucked :/

Not sure what you mean... If you're saying the JTL (Jump to Lightspeed) expansion for Star Wars Galaxies "sucked" that's just not true, in fact I'd say combat in space was hugely better then on the ground even pre-CU. The space game in SWG had a logic to it, the ground game was a lot of /headHit3 keyboard mashing. 

It seems disappointing that SW:TOR won't have open spacefields the way EVE or even SWG has, but I guess that's the "rails" part kicking in.

Sorry let me rephrase it. Compared to X-Wing, Tie-Fighter, X-Wing vs Tie-Fighter, X-Wing alliance: JTL space combat sucked.

=> From the flight dynamics down to the UI those game were 110% better. <==

 

I don't blame the devs though it was rushed out by the decision makers.

And from videos I've seen on Youtube you're right, the SWTOR space game game is a minigame, which is sad...

BUT

If you remember SWG didn't release with space... actually I remember running on foot to Anchorhead and dying horribly several times because they didn't even have speeders, never mind spaceships! So my guess is maye take a "wait and see" because if they have a limited space game to start, and then add more 'sand' to it later it could actually be pretty interesting :)

I know, it's hopeful thinking, but so far Bioware's reputation hasn't been as tarnished as SOE's when it comes to listening to players :)

2 things:

First BioWare stated in an interview with Darth hater that from past experience with SWG, they knew space had to be in at launch. It was PR bull* but here the link

Second, you can't really add PvP nor multiplayer PvE content that does not sucks with the actual system. Now consider adding a second fully fledged 3D space sim in TOR on top of the tunnel shooter == headaches for the devs and it can ruin the whole thing. Once the new simulator is live:

• What do you do with the actual tunnel shooter?
• Do you now focus the  the single player PvE system on both system, only one, which one?
• When you add space content, to which system do you add it? You have limited resources.... which player base do you want to make unhappy?
• How do you balance rewards for the 3D space sim vs the tube shooter ?
• How about new players needing to learn 2 wholey different gameplay for space combat?

Having 2 space sims in a game seems weird. It's like having 2 ground based combat system: a classic MMO one for PvE and then later on you add a FPS one for PvP...???

 t could actually be fairly easy to just combine the 2. You play the smaller rail-shooter on your way to the epic battle ground for either pvp or pve. It would be like running down a hallway killing any mobs that show up before entering a large auditorium to fight the boss/mobs/both. This obviously wouldn't be the best way I admit, but if I came up with an idea in a minute or two I'm sure the developers could come up with something much better with a year or two.

I am fairly happy that there is any sort of space travel at all. There didn't need to be but i think it benefits the game as a whole.

SWG did not have space travel. Once it did the space game and the ground game were pretty much seperate, I had a max skill entertainer character that was an ace pilot and had not done one single ground based combat quest.

So to suggest the space and ground being wholly seperate in this game is not good seems a bit off.

I hope they will expand on it later and make it more like JTL, but i do not want a full space sim like EVE. I would be happy if they added later, the good things from JTL, friends manning guns on your ship, fighting random NPC spawns / getting missions, attacking other players, more freedom to just fly around.

The game has been in development for 6 years now, if it was going to cost another year to make space a full game on its own i would rather it came as an expansion than wait another year. By the time the game comes out it will already be dated, i think we are at a now or never stage, obviously the game is coming but if they had delayed it for ANOTHER year it would have put a great many people finally off the game.

Originally posted by SlickShoes

I am fairly happy that there is any sort of space travel at all. There didn't need to be but i think it benefits the game as a whole.

 

SWG did not have space travel. Once it did the space game and the ground game were pretty much seperate, I had a max skill entertainer character that was an ace pilot and had not done one single ground based combat quest.

 

So to suggest the space and ground being wholly seperate in this game is not good seems a bit off.

 

I hope they will expand on it later and make it more like JTL, but i do not want a full space sim like EVE. I would be happy if they added later, the good things from JTL, friends manning guns on your ship, fighting random NPC spawns / getting missions, attacking other players, more freedom to just fly around.

 

The game has been in development for 6 years now, if it was going to cost another year to make space a full game on its own i would rather it came as an expansion than wait another year. By the time the game comes out it will already be dated, i think we are at a now or never stage, obviously the game is coming but if they had delayed it for ANOTHER year it would have put a great many people finally off the game.

Are you suggesting than SWG + JTL was more seperated than what is on offer with SWTOR?

I don't believe you can launch from a planet, and fly out of it in real time. You need to do loading screens, so it also is seperated! Or are you refering to by seperation that flight in SWG required you to purchase an expansion?

I personally would have wished for TOR to have open space. I think the fact that they created this mini game style system(reminds me of the flying thing from Jade Empire or the turrent mini game from KOTOR) suggests that they won't easily revamp the experience.

I think open space would be the perfect way to give a sandbox feel to SWTOR. The planets might be themepark but then you have open space. guild halls could be large class vessels - Lots of possibilities of guild vs guild warfare ( ship vs ship, and ship boarding) - It's classic star wars right there.

Jump To Lightspeed was pretty incredible. It felt "almost" like a simulation. The cockpit had this powerful feel to it. It was very well done. The problem was that you didn't mean a lot of people out in space. It needed more space cantinas, and more varied and high quality missions. Dogfighting combat was deep.

I never played the old X-Wing and Tie-Fighter games, but I grew up with Rogue Squadron and I thought those were a blast to play. Jump to Lighspeed is the most ambitious expansion I have played. It was really really cool, but it could not solve the ground game problems.

If I was Bioware, what I would do now;

1) Launch the game with this plan. I would tell the fans that if the desire was high enough post launch, that they would work on open space.

If the desire then would be high enough, I wouldn't remove on-rails.

I think the on-rails missions might be a great way to discover a planet for the first time. After having visited a solar system or planet, you could then be able to unlock "free space". And afterwards then, unlock different difficulty levels for the on-rails shooting.

If the on-rails is good... if they really tweak it, and make it tight(its not highly condensed with players, and since no terrain is being generated but only a 360 degrees skybox, lag is much less an issue... as the JTL developers explained in their beta forums - You could actually create a good end game for the on-rails shooting. you make leaderboards and cool cosmetic ship unlocks... unique furniture and pilot suits for your characters for doing insanely difficult on-rails shooting; Added with achievements, it could be really good.

they just need to tweak it, and stick to it.

At the end of the day; I do not think any fanboy or TOR hater has a problem with the on-rails gameplay. They are just afraid that they will never get the full on-rails experience later. That's the only thing that is going on here. I think everything will peep down if the developers openly say and acknowledge that they will take request. Maybe it will take years. It took WoW 6-7 years to do flight in the old world, but they did do it eventually. It would be nice to see open space in TOR before then.

the on-rails look colorful and good for what it is. People just become sad if they think its the only space SW experience they will ever get in SWTOR. That's the real problem, I think. Most of us are probably on the same page at the end of the day:)

Originally posted by Kalfer

Originally posted by SlickShoes

I am fairly happy that there is any sort of space travel at all. There didn't need to be but i think it benefits the game as a whole.

 

SWG did not have space travel. Once it did the space game and the ground game were pretty much seperate, I had a max skill entertainer character that was an ace pilot and had not done one single ground based combat quest.

 

So to suggest the space and ground being wholly seperate in this game is not good seems a bit off.

 

I hope they will expand on it later and make it more like JTL, but i do not want a full space sim like EVE. I would be happy if they added later, the good things from JTL, friends manning guns on your ship, fighting random NPC spawns / getting missions, attacking other players, more freedom to just fly around.

 

The game has been in development for 6 years now, if it was going to cost another year to make space a full game on its own i would rather it came as an expansion than wait another year. By the time the game comes out it will already be dated, i think we are at a now or never stage, obviously the game is coming but if they had delayed it for ANOTHER year it would have put a great many people finally off the game.

 

Are you suggesting than SWG + JTL was more seperated than what is on offer with SWTOR?

I don't believe you can launch from a planet, and fly out of it in real time. You need to do loading screens, so it also is seperated! Or are you refering to by seperation that flight in SWG required you to purchase an expansion?

 

I personally would have wished for TOR to have open space. I think the fact that they created this mini game style system(reminds me of the flying thing from Jade Empire or the turrent mini game from KOTOR) suggests that they won't easily revamp the experience.

 

 

I think open space would be the perfect way to give a sandbox feel to SWTOR. The planets might be themepark but then you have open space. guild halls could be large class vessels - Lots of possibilities of guild vs guild warfare ( ship vs ship, and ship boarding) - It's classic star wars right there.

 

 

Jump To Lightspeed was pretty incredible. It felt "almost" like a simulation. The cockpit had this powerful feel to it. It was very well done. The problem was that you didn't mean a lot of people out in space. It needed more space cantinas, and more varied and high quality missions. Dogfighting combat was deep.

 

I never played the old X-Wing and Tie-Fighter games, but I grew up with Rogue Squadron and I thought those were a blast to play. Jump to Lighspeed is the most ambitious expansion I have played. It was really really cool, but it could not solve the ground game problems.

 

 

 

If I was Bioware, what I would do now;

 

1) Launch the game with this plan. I would tell the fans that if the desire was high enough post launch, that they would work on open space.

If the desire then would be high enough, I wouldn't remove on-rails.

I think the on-rails missions might be a great way to discover a planet for the first time. After having visited a solar system or planet, you could then be able to unlock "free space". And afterwards then, unlock different difficulty levels for the on-rails shooting.

 

If the on-rails is good... if they really tweak it, and make it tight(its not highly condensed with players, and since no terrain is being generated but only a 360 degrees skybox, lag is much less an issue... as the JTL developers explained in their beta forums - You could actually create a good end game for the on-rails shooting. you make leaderboards and cool cosmetic ship unlocks... unique furniture and pilot suits for your characters for doing insanely difficult on-rails shooting; Added with achievements, it could be really good.

they just need to tweak it, and stick to it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

At the end of the day; I do not think any fanboy or TOR hater has a problem with the on-rails gameplay. They are just afraid that they will never get the full on-rails experience later. That's the only thing that is going on here. I think everything will peep down if the developers openly say and acknowledge that they will take request. Maybe it will take years. It took WoW 6-7 years to do flight in the old world, but they did do it eventually. It would be nice to see open space in TOR before then.

 

the on-rails look colorful and good for what it is. People just become sad if they think its the only space SW experience they will ever get in SWTOR. That's the real problem, I think. Most of us are probably on the same page at the end of the day:)

 

I would have loved open space too, i do hope they can add it in at some point.

I have no idea how separated the TOR space is from the ground game because i havent played it. However in SWG you still had loading screens when you were going to a planet, the progression in space was totally seperate from the ground game, the only thing overlapping was crafting.

I also agree with you on if they did add open space keep the on rails stuff as a discovery or some osrt of basic pilot training you have to go through before you can actually explore open space.

I agree pretty much with what you say anyway I just think that it is a bit soon to completely rule out them ever adding proper space combat to the game. In the end it will come down to if the players want it and if it will make money.

Dont realy care that much about having free roam space style , rather would have it on rails with loads of polish same as they are trying to do on ground than have something half assed again like most new and old mmos did launch with .

Originally posted by krea

Dont realy care that much about having free roam space style , rather would have it on rails with loads of polish same as they are trying to do on ground than have something half assed again like most new and old mmos did launch with .

So you'd rather have a well-polished piece of useless crap than something that has potential but needs improvement?  

I mean, it's not even multiplayer.  Forget rails, non-rails, freeform, flight sim, eve-like, combat or non-combat content or whatever else some people want space content to be - that s**t is all arguable.  

i think almost anyone would agree that space content in an massively multi-player game nees to - AT THE VERY LEAST - actually be massively multiplayer.

It surprised me that they came up with this. Earlier on the developers gave the impression that SWTOR wouldnt have spacecombat at release at all. I would rather see a more expanded spacegame as expansion instead of this minigame that lacks any depth. So yeah, I see it as wasted oppurtunity. Maybe they bent under pressure because of the anticipation for spacecombat on the forums.

But fortunately for me I was looking forward to SWTOR mainly for a KOTOR like experience in MMO form. So the lame spaceminigame doesnt bother me that much. The only disappointment for me is that it means there will be no 3d space combat at all.

Originally posted by arieste

Originally posted by krea

Dont realy care that much about having free roam space style , rather would have it on rails with loads of polish same as they are trying to do on ground than have something half assed again like most new and old mmos did launch with .

So you'd rather have a well-polished piece of useless crap than something that has potential but needs improvement?  

 

I mean, it's not even multiplayer.  Forget rails, non-rails, freeform, flight sim, eve-like, combat or non-combat content or whatever else some people want space content to be - that s**t is all arguable.  

 

i think almost anyone would agree that space content in an massively multi-player game nees to - AT THE VERY LEAST - actually be massively multiplayer.

 That's, for now the main issue.

I'm happy to have a fun little mini game. No need to complain about extra content just because it isn't what you wanted. Maybe they'll make it more later, but be happy with what you have now.

Originally posted by Deewe

Not even as good as Star Fox.

 

The rumors are out. I was prepared but not to that extend. I care, I'm disappointed.

 

And I thought JTL sucked :/

 Rumors?  Just found out?  You do know there is an entire website just for SWTOR don't you?  It's been there for a loooong time.  Just saying.

I don't have a clue why people seem to think that BioWare owes them Jump to Lightspeed or some space MMO. BioWare has never promised a well rounded fully interactive space experiance and anyone who has followed the game for any length of time knows this.

It is a source of endless irritation that threads like this keep popping up all over the interwebs, promising doom and gloom based on things we've known about for a very long time. Next someone will talk about how the lack of dual spec is going to cause the very center of the earth to detonate.

It's going to be on rails. They should have just bought out JTL since SWG got shut down anyhow and improved upon that and added to the game. People loved that flight simulator, now they just got this BS space on rails crap.

Originally posted by arieste

Originally posted by krea

Dont realy care that much about having free roam space style , rather would have it on rails with loads of polish same as they are trying to do on ground than have something half assed again like most new and old mmos did launch with .

So you'd rather have a well-polished piece of useless crap than something that has potential but needs improvement?  

 

I mean, it's not even multiplayer.  Forget rails, non-rails, freeform, flight sim, eve-like, combat or non-combat content or whatever else some people want space content to be - that s**t is all arguable.  

 

i think almost anyone would agree that space content in an massively multi-player game nees to - AT THE VERY LEAST - actually be massively multiplayer.

Originally posted by hayes303

I don't have a clue why people seem to think that BioWare owes them Jump to Lightspeed or some space MMO. BioWare has never promised a well rounded fully interactive space experiance and anyone who has followed the game for any length of time knows this.

It is a source of endless irritation that threads like this keep popping up all over the interwebs, promising doom and gloom based on things we've known about for a very long time. Next someone will talk about how the lack of dual spec is going to cause the very center of the earth to detonate.

 I hear ya.  I read these threads and laugh, just laugh.