Originally posted by jackie28

I'm an independent game developer ( among other things ) and I just have to ask, what do players WANT nowadays?

I'm afraid that most of them want something that cannot be delivered--making MMOs fresh and new for someone who's been playing them for many years.  You see a LOT of Jaded and Ennui/Burnout on this forum.

People tend to forget the flaws and problems with their First Game (whatever it was), but they remember the awe factor and how great that game was to play.  Of course it was great, they were doing something new and there's always some excitement to that.

You can't give that back to them.  All you can do is make the game you want to make and put your heart into it.

Originally posted by Escargon

I want everyone to attack me no mather what.

Fortunately this is not what [most] players want, and even more fortunately the developers know that.

I have spent lots of time playing MMOS, 10 years and counting and spent lots of free time on gaming forums. I have arrived to the conclusion that players themselves do not know what they want. All the things they constantly demand even if somehow take shape of an MMO it is ignored and neglacted till it gets to the verge of closing. 

Originally posted by Chilliesauce

 All the things they constantly demand even if somehow take shape of an MMO it is ignored and neglacted till it gets to the verge of closing. 

Because pretty much every single forum is 90% full with a disilusioned, jaded and burned out vocal minority. Most players that still enjoy the games are busy playing and having fun, not bitching on forums. As someone wanting to make a successful game, listening to those forums is the worst thing you can do.

Originally posted by Chilliesauce

I have spent lots of time playing MMOS, 10 years and counting and spent lots of free time on gaming forums. I have arrived to the conclusion that players themselves do not know what they want. All the things they constantly demand even if somehow take shape of an MMO it is ignored and neglacted till it gets to the verge of closing. 

They just want something different.  A half-million different definitions of different, but when it is partially delivered with various new ideas, they're still burnt out and it can't ever be good enough.

A lot of them seem to want a game built for a rugged individualist designed to prove their superior gaming skills, that would be a downright terrible game for everyone else to play.  Grindfest or gankfest or some other form of gaming sadomasochism, a game where only the two-percenters are happy and screw everyone else. You can't run a business that way and make a profit.

Various narrow definitions of the perfect game, perfect for only a very narrow portion of the player base.

I find that most of the things that make an MMO gamer are what they are receiving.  A game they can complain about and a place they can do the complaining.  BADABING, you have any standard MMO (name one) and an enabler like MMORPG.com and you have the makings of a happy gamer.

It seems what players want and what developers want to give players are almost completely different, for example; devs love making themeparks, players want more freedom than a fixed themepark path but are constantly given themepark games.

Originally posted by Robokapp

Originally posted by Stormreaver

Originally posted by Robokapp

Originally posted by just1opinion

Originally posted by GrayGhost79

........

Why aren't MMO's a grand adventure? Is the goal really to feel like we are paying for the privelege of picking up some NPC's dry cleaning?

 

THIS ^^^^^.

I want the ADVENTURE back. That is all.  Pure and simple.  If that one thing was taken care of I could forgive a lot of other things being wrong, missing, tired, whatever, but the adventure.....must return to MMOs.  And I am not some idiot NPC's slave girl either. I have had way past enough of those kinds of quests.

 sadly...and I'm saying this without trolling...how can you have adventure with youtube and strategy guides everywhere? in order to stay on pace with the other adventurers, you cant afford not to follow the available tools or you're excluded. Sure you can have your adventure alone but...is that really mmorpg-esque?

Read: Single Server Games

 I've read it. now back to my question, how do you handle external information that's available?

In a single server game where the environment changes in an unpredictable fashion, this would ultimately not be a concern. Once an event is completed (or at least an event high enough in magnitude that somebody would want to put it on Youtube), the game world reacts and changes, and by then, a guide would do no good.

That's the problem with a) multi-realm games and b) static game environments. Take WoW for example. You want to complete the Onyxia quest chain? Easy, just go look it up. However, by my standards, once you discover and defeat Onyxia, she's gone for good. But what's to stop players on other realms from still going on Youtube and getting a quick-guide? Create a single server. Then it really is a one-time event. Bam. And yea, on a totally different note: even if you do have repeatable content, if it plays exactly the same way every time, something's wrong with your design.

@Jusomdude: In my original post I specify that having all players on a single "realm" is more important than having them all on a single "server." I could honestly care less about loading screens if it means I'm sharing a single world with every other player. Plus, if you use shards, you could feasibly supply more support for highly populated areas such as Orgrimmar. The purpose of having every player on the same realm is to make the world of game actually meaningful. By current standards, if you defeat a raid boss, it means absolutely nothing. It's been done before on another realm, maybe even on your own. Where is the prestige in that? That's why, when sh*t goes down in EVE, it goes down for everybody. It affects the game world permanently for every player.

Players want another hill on their rollercoaster of disappointment-hope-disappointment.  Even if you make the perfect game, it will be bashed to bits by gamers.  It's what we do.

To the OP:   I wish you the best of luck in your endeavors.   I've been a programmer all my life, although I struggled with C++ (an array of pointers that points to pointers?).    So, while I'm rusty with some of the coding for that language, I've written several tiny games just for the experience of creating them.   I consider myself a decent writer, and I have a good understanding of number generation systems.   If I can be of help, send me a PM.   

Anyway, one thing I see lacking in MMOs is long term goals.    Something that your character knows about at the start, and slowly makes their way towards, encountering obstacles and such along the way.    An example would be Fallout 3.   Very early on, you are tasked with finding your father.   But to do that, you have to go through ........   And then later, you're given another long term task.

This adds a sense of progression MMOs are lacking.

Other bits:

-  I want to feel powerful, I don't want to be challenged in the slightest by one or a few trash mobs.   If I encounter a couple of equal level nobody minions, I want to destroy them.   I don't want to slowly whittle them down in a battle for which the outcome is already known, and then do that again five thousand times.   Leave the challenging fights for the bosses or mini-bosses.

- Lots of freedom of creation and character growth; don't have classes, have experience equate to points that can be placed into a variety of  useful skills.   This leads to meaningful choices and more individualized builds.

-  Make it a mix of themepark/sandbox.    Have quests, and make it obvious where my character is intended to eventually head to, but also give me the freedom to go wondering off and find some interesting little nooks and mini-quests.

-  Make crafting complex and full of options;  example:  when creating a sword the crafter could select one of ten possible materials to use for a blade, each of which would add different bonuses.    And then the same for the crosspiece, and then the same for the hilt, etc.   Then end result being a very individualized item.

-  Make travel fast or make it meaningful; holding down the W key for 5 or 10 minutes is boring.    Let me get there quickly (at least after the first trek), or make the trip interesting.

-  Either make multiple playstyles equally viable (grouping/soloing/pvp'ing), or unapologetically focus on one of them.   I think many MMOs make the mistake of trying to be all things to all people, and wind up with lesser versions of everything, satisfying no one.

I hope this helps.   Good luck.

If we're talking "most players", just look at what most players are playing.  They're playing the MMORPG with the most polished and well-executed combat, with lots of varied content.  When combat is the most frequent activity in a game, failure to make it fun results in a failed game.

If we're talking "players" (ie any damn fool with an opinion) then all of these suggestions are valid.  

But if we're trying to narrow things down to ideas which make sense -- ideas which will entertain a lot of people -- then a lot of the opinions professed in this thread are dangerous niche dead-ends.  Granted, depending on the scale of game made a niche might not be a bad idea since niches typically have less competition.

It's the same as with nearly any human activity.  Let's take swimming.  There are a certain number of people who want to swim competitively.  They enjoy the challenge.   

The you have a much larger group of people who just want to splash around in the pool.

And then you have another still sizeable group who just want to lounge by the pool while others swim.

If you want to know what players want, which of these types of people are you asking about?  People who like a challenge? People who don't like a challenge?  People who are just hanging out? 

It makes all the difference.  But generally speaking, the more the challenge, the less people you find who are interested.

I am also a game dev, and currently working on a mmorpg. However, I am also designing a new gaming console/ add on (Havent decided yet) to run it on, and its virtual reality. I have a few connections that I'm sure you could use, ie; progammers, artist, other devs. I would like to get some input from an outside source. just im me

My ideal MMO, which I will admit is slightly nostalgia fueled, would be something like Runescape, my first MMO. I want an open world sandbox mmo, that while having some sort of a story, doesn't completely quest lock you. Runescape had quests and gave you a list of every quest available. The player then decided if they want to go do those quests or not. Each quest had a story and most of the quests felt like they fit into the overall game world. The game was highly adventure driven. There wasn't really anything that told you to go to a certain area, you would just travel there looking to level. Also, Runescape had a ton of things to do that weren't just questing and grinding. Now breaking off of Runescape a little, I would like to see a game without levels (that actually works), where (back to RS here), like Runescape, has instead different abilities that you can train like magic, strength, health, defense, etc. Then, I would also like those abilities to not really have a cap. (bringing in my asian MMO background) I like the fact that with hard work, you can turn out to be better or stronger than others at something. Lastly, in addition to minigames, open world pvp, structured pvp, and some sort of stable in game economy where people are free to make money, there has to be a hefty crafting system where customization and experimentation is possible.

Originally posted by jackie28

I'm an independent game developer ( among other things ) and I just have to ask, what do players WANT nowadays?

I started MMOs with Ultima Online, but to this day I can't say I've really enjoyed playing anything else.

And of course if I went back to UO, the magic is no longer there, so speaking for myself I think I'm competing with my own nostalgia for something that just cannot be recreated.

It's no longer novel to simply be "online" with other people in a shared environment.

It's very difficult from a developers point of view to determine what is "fun" when you're burned out.

I know what I HATE, but I have trouble envisioning what kind of compelling and immersive experience that *I* want from a game anymore that would also appeal to others and earn revenue.

It's a crappy place to be if game development is your main skill set ;)

Off hand I'd say I can appreciate sand box environments where the game play is emergent, non-linear, non-theme park, where the GM's aren't stormtroopers, secondary markets are accepted, where the game is more than just combat and PVP, and where the game world itself is more granular / atomic and interactive.  But beyond that, I'm split on cartoonism versus realism, or what kind of novel features can be done that havent already been implemented elsewhere.

Curious what others thoughts are for their ideal game.

Take the gathering / crafting system from SWG pre NGE.

Take the RvR system from DAoC.

Add in a Allegiance type system from Asheron's Call.

Govern different "regions" in your world like they do in EvE with High Security, Medium and No (0.0).

Let players claim and hold land.

Get rid of mini-maps and questionmarks over quest givers.

Only have a handfull of quest givers. The power of the word "quest" makes a comeback to actually meaning something special. Quests would be randomized...and I do mean randomized.

Reinstate players having NPC vendors that are setup inside/outside their personal houses. No Auction Hall.

Those are a few I would start with. My game would not be aimed for people who have ever uttered the phrase "I don't need a second job" or for those that want to buy their way (no item mall) or for those who seek "end game" or just want to hurry up and "win it so they can jump to the next big thing". The reward / sense of accomplishment you get from my game would in large part correlate to how much time you invest in it.

My short answer would be...surprise me. How you ask? Well you could do it a couple of ways.

1) Bring back some of the playing mechanics from past MMO's that are no longer in favor such as Shadowbane's looting system, or DAOC's 3 faction RVR but be sure to include some element of territiory control to give us something to fight for.

2) Create something all new, see Citadel of Sorcery for a title that really is promising something different, even if it sometimes sounds too good to be true.

3) Control the gameplay experience with active and swift moderation and don't be afraid to kick asshats out of the game world indefinitely.

4) Make sure that no matter what style of PVP you go for make sure each player can easily limit (not eliminate) their level of risk.

5) Be sure to include gameplay mechanics that strongly encourage players to interact and make sure there are tools in place to make it easier to do so. (And no, this does not mean add a cross server dungeon finder) 6) Do not assume that anything Blizzard did is the only right way to do things in MMO's. On the converse, do not assume just because Blizzard did something it is automatically bad, it may have been the perfect answer for their particular design and target audience.

edit: stupid "smart" phone only let's me reply in a wall of text, so parsed it for clarity

A massive multiplayer online role playing game.

And I still struggle to find ones xP

Originally posted by Amathe

It's the same as with nearly any human activity.  Let's take swimming.  There are a certain number of people who want to swim competitively.  They enjoy the challenge.   

The you have a much larger group of people who just want to splash around in the pool.

And then you have another still sizeable group who just want to lounge by the pool while others swim.

If you want to know what players want, which of these types of people are you asking about?  People who like a challenge? People who don't like a challenge?  People who are just hanging out? 

It makes all the difference.  But generally speaking, the more the challenge, the less people you find who are interested.

Very good point.

It actually reminds me of a conversation/argument I had with some of the Shadowbane team a few years ago back when the games population was at its peak. The general attitude was "screw the casuals (carebears in those days) this is a hard core game". Which I can understand and agree with, but my point was why can't an MMO support both types of players? Their answer was such a thing was not possible because it would essentially require two entirely seperate games. An opinion I felt was about half bullshit. Some games have tried this idea to an extent, Eve with its secure to lawless zones, and old school SWG with its neutral/covert/overt PVP system. Those seemed to work pretty well and they let those that want to life dangerously do so without much troubling those of a mellower outlook. I do not think the idea that one game can suport two very different player types (and the varying degrees in between) is impossible.

So what I want is for game companies to stop trying to court only one type of MMO player and attempt to create a game world that would allow for more than one style of gaming. So far it looks like Archage is the only game attempting this idea.

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Originally posted by Onigod
What i want is a GAME and there arent many.
 
in my vieuw a game is only a real game if player skill and some intellect is required to achieve something. i dont want a game wich would allow me to reach end game with my eyes closed while just spamming those fricking carebear prem shop health potions.
 
i dont want a kill 30 boars quests theres is no accomplishment in them i want the quest to be kill 3 boars and die 2 times while trying to do so becouse every type of mob and in this case boars require a diffrent approach making it incredible hard when you face them for the first time.
 
i dont want a game that when i bunnyhop around like a retard and i accidantly jump over the end of a cliffside to be hold by a invisable magical wall wich doesnt allow me to even fall of it i want the game to allow me to fall off it making my character break its neck.
 
mmorpgs need to stop going easymode.

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