Originally posted by wrekognize

**correction**

Oblivion is by far the best sandbox RPG* on the market and has tons of stories!!

 

Oblivion isn't a pure sandbox. It's partially sandbox. And it's hugely story driven, except you can stop the story and run around and do random stuff if you want, usually more mini stories.

Originally posted by divmax

Stories are absolutely essential. I scoff at player-created content. I've tried lots of it. In various games, including sandbox games. Its not even close to the best crafted stories by game designers. 

I uninstalled WoW as soon as I figured out that it was all about gear and their idea of "story" was quest hub, kill 10 X, quest hub, kill 10 Y.

Its not that I don't play games without stories. I play plenty of FPS or other action oriented games which don't require story, or commitment of any kind. Its just logon and play for a while and logoff.

When I play an MMORPG, I expect more. A lot more.

That's the problem with Eve Online. You fly your ship around looking for some pvp action. Oh cool, here comes some pvp. Then you wait again for some more pvp action... fly your ship around... waiting... Oh some fleet action! In 20 minutes... oh...

*uninstall*

Originally posted by divmax

I don't play MMORPG's if they don't have an overarching story. But the story needs to be good, immersive and engaging.

Stories are absolutely essential. I scoff at player-created content. I've tried lots of it. In various games, including sandbox games. Its not even close to the best crafted stories by game designers. 

I uninstalled WoW as soon as I figured out that it was all about gear and their idea of "story" was quest hub, kill 10 X, quest hub, kill 10 Y.

Its not that I don't play games without stories. I play plenty of FPS or other action oriented games which don't require story, or commitment of any kind. Its just logon and play for a while and logoff.

When I play an MMORPG, I expect more. A lot more.

ehh.. you've probably just never met a really good storyteller

not surprising because they are rare

I do agree a game should have some sort of theme to it.. a game without a theme is directionless imo... (inb4 poor player created content.. no not everybody is a master storyteller)

but to completely eliminate player created content is just as bad as an on the rails game imo... there should be some way for players to infuse their own story into a game... and if its not up to par have the community vote it out.

Originally posted by djvapid

Wait.  What?  A flip side to the coin?  Players aren't the developers.  We can't create content for the game.  We can stand around and type things like: "Look over the field, there's a bunch of monsters coming!  Let's roleplay defending our town while we kill them!"  Of course, there are no monsters there, a player just made it up to create a story for others to react to.  There is no flip side of the coin.  Thus, there is no argument against more story. 

...

 

The only problem with MMOs today is that older MMOs have set the bar on certain things that should be seen in every game afterward.  And rather than do that, you see developers completely ignoring what works and continuing to make the same mistakes: dump their resources into an idea just to find out that everyone thinks their game is garbage and then go under. 

Originally posted by divmax

I don't play MMORPG's if they don't have an overarching story. But the story needs to be good, immersive and engaging.

Stories are absolutely essential. I scoff at player-created content. I've tried lots of it. In various games, including sandbox games. Its not even close to the best crafted stories by game designers. 

When I play an MMORPG, I expect more. A lot more.

Thats what i am saying. :)

Example:

Ok. No History. You log in the game, kill everithing that moves, breath or have a 3d graphic, walk on everything, fly for everything, kill others palyers.... and... ok... OH WAIT im playing GTA.

We need to know almost EVERYTHING of the history to begin. Why we are there? Why we are in this world? Who rule this world? Witch world is this? There is evil or good? Etc etc etc...

Yeah it can be done. I'm not sure they wanna give the players that much control though, alot of that having to do with hardware and software constraints. You don't really want someone screwing up the game for everyone else by cornering the markets. If there are markets.

For example: You enter an unfamiliar world and need "Stuff" like weapons and armor, tools. You go wandering around the woods and find a stick. This is your first object and it can be burned as a torch or you can build a fire with it if you have the ability to make fire, used as a weapon, used to build things, make a trap. You carry and use this stick for awhile because it is the only thing you can utilize. You become intimate with it's uses and get use to it.

Later on you find another Item, an item that is more useful than a stick. You beat the crap out of something/someone with the stick and it dropped it as loot. It's a steel sword or a gun.

Finding steel automatically tells a story. The story is someone at some point figured out how to make steel. And without saying a word, it told a story.

The next thing you find an alien something or other. It glows , it beeps , it beeps faster when I go in this direction and slows it's beeping down when I go in this direction. That tells a story or is about to.

Eventually I build a house and display my "Stick" when others look at this stick hanging on my wall they will also see a description that it is Unsung's first stick and he carried this stick until he found or made or bought a better weapon before he became what he is now or was at the time. Now he is king and this "stick" is worth a fortune and has special properties. It's hardened from use, does more damage, and gives the user special powers, because Unsung bled on it. He bled on it when fighting a dragon who injected him with a poison, the posion nearly killed him, but only nearly. The poison made him stronger, and the blood from Unsung was asorbed by the wood giving the user the power of "Might" as long as they had it in their possession.

The idea here is to let the player/s write their own description of "Unsung's stick" and let other players see it.

"Titles" do ok with telling stories. They tell a story. If someone has a title and you know what it takes to earn that title, you know part of the story. Of that person/player and what is happening in the world.

Yeah it can definitely be done. Alot of it just depends on what the developer's have in mind for a game.

Originally posted by Normike

Originally posted by wrekognize

**correction**

Oblivion is by far the best sandbox RPG* on the market and has tons of stories!!



 

Oblivion isn't a pure sandbox. It's partially sandbox. And it's hugely story driven, except you can stop the story and run around and do random stuff if you want, usually more mini stories.

 

Again, "sandbox" and "story" are not mutualy exclusive terms. "Sandbox" and "Themepark" just describe the approach the game takes to how the player will interact with the narrative.

"Sandbox" allows the player to approach the narrative in an open ended fashion where his actions partialy dictate the course the narrative takes and the conclusions it reaches and how they effect the game world.

In other words it's the players actions that largely dictate how the story unfolds. "Themepark" the player must approach the narrative in a linear fashion. How it  will unfold is predetermined and the players actions cannot significantly alter the script. No matter what the player does, they will proceed through the same narrative in the same fashion regardless of thier actions or decisions (because the story will not progress, unless they take the "right" decisions).

All that other "random stuff" in Oblivion actualy becomes part of that players narrative. They help to individualize it.  They are not "aside" from players narrative...they ARE the narrative (and frankly were more fun then the main story arc, IMO).

Note that DAO was not completely devoid of sandbox elements. It did allow the player some choices (i.e. goto the Dwarven City first or the Elves, help this companion or not? Back this faction for the Dwarven Throne) that did change the overall narative in some limited ways.

In fact, I would argue that this was one of the largest appeals of the game....and was not an insignificant factor in it's success. It just that it in no way approached the level of openness that Bethesda puts into it's SPRPG's.

I'll also point out that DA2, which was significantly more limited in it's presentation of choices for the player, was coincidentaly significantly less well recieved then it's predecessor.

Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

Originally posted by Normike

Originally posted by wrekognize

**correction**

Oblivion is by far the best sandbox RPG* on the market and has tons of stories!!



 

Oblivion isn't a pure sandbox. It's partially sandbox. And it's hugely story driven, except you can stop the story and run around and do random stuff if you want, usually more mini stories.

 

Again, "sandbox" and "story" are not mutualy exclusive terms. "Sandbox" and "Themepark" just describe the approach the game takes to how the player will interact with the narrative.

"Sandbox" allows the player to approach the narrative in an open ended fashion where his actions partialy dictate the course the narrative takes and the conclusions it reaches and how they effect the game world.

In other words it's the players actions that largely dictate how the story unfolds. "Themepark" the player must approach the narrative in a linear fashion. How it  will unfold is predetermined and the players actions cannot significantly alter the script. No matter what the player does, they will proceed through the same narrative in the same fashion regardless of thier actions or decisions (because the story will not progress, unless they take the "right" decisions).

All that other "random stuff" in Oblivion actualy becomes part of that players narrative. They help to individualize it.  They are not "aside" from players narrative...they ARE the narrative (and frankly were more fun then the main story arc, IMO).

Note that DAO was not completely devoid of sandbox elements. It did allow the player some choices (i.e. goto the Dwarven City first or the Elves, help this companion or not? Back this faction for the Dwarven Throne) that did change the overall narative in some limited ways.

In fact, I would argue that this was one of the largest appeals of the game....and was not an insignificant factor in it's success. It just that it in no way approached the level of openness that Bethesda puts into it's SPRPG's.

I'll also point out that DA2, which was significantly more limited in it's presentation of choices for the player, was coincidentaly significantly less well recieved then it's predecessor.

You're using "sandbox" in a way most gamers don't. If we use you're version then SWTORs dialogue choices and affects on the character would be more "sandbox" than traditional MMOs.

In my mind, the ultimate sandbox is a game that lets the player create, build, destroy anything in the world. Including social systems. Oblivion was a partial sandbox because you could go anywhere at any time and kill creatures, but....  There wasn't much creation or building. And you couldn't destroy *anything* just creatures. That's why it felt like a partial sandbox to me. The side quests were still stories that you followed along to. 

If Minecraft ramped up server population limits and it implemented a way to create social systems then I could see it as a true sandbox MMO. Maybe the ultimate sandbox MMO?

As to sandbox vs story. I don't really care as long as it's done well. It is possible to love Mass Effect and Minecraft at the same time.

I'm a sandbox player, for me the story aren't very important, i'll rather have nice role quality and quantity wise so that i can develop a story for my character. Role play game are meant to be played, you should be the actor, not the spectator of it. Also the huge step foward and difference between pen & paper role playing games and mmo is the fact in pen&paper the Gm tell you what happen (still not exactly a story but close), in mmo this is just on an other level. In mmo the dev put a persistant world at your disposal, or at you character disposal to be precise. SO the story isn't important in the end.

"Story" is important for any game, Theme Park or Sandbox, IMO, because it at least sets the baseline for the what/why of the game-world.  EVE is touted as a sandbox game, yet significant effort has been put into frame-working the why of the worlds (empires rather).  CCP's trailers are superb, presenting engaging snapshots into the drama(s) going  on (conceptually).

Do we need "more" story in our MMOs?  Dunno how to answer that as we have no baseline to measure more or less from.

Can I say with certainty we, the playerbase, can't be left to "make up the story ourselves, along the way"?  You betcha.  This isn't raw negativity, it's just an operational fact: 

Any "story", framework, what have you, is that only as a result of focus and common vision.  The MMO playerbase is simply far too fragmented to, all by itself, drive a game's "story".  This runs the gamut from differences of opinions, likes, dislikes, social and cultural differences swaying perception, all the way to those who cheat/maniuplate/steal in the game, etc.

So, we are the primary participants in any MMO "story", this is true.  We are the ones who participate in it, may have the ability to alter it's shape (depending on the game and available mechanics), but it's not likely a cohesive "gestalt" is going to occur in the playerbase filling the void of "writing the story" within a game unless it's short term tactical goals like "Imma gank 50 lowbies today", or "Imma farm up 100 gold now".

We are priviledged to live in an age where technology lets us step into stories (MMOs) and participate in the drama to greater or lesser degree. 

But there does need to be an Author.

Another way to look at it is:  It hurts nothing by being there.  Those that are interested may partake of it, and those not may choose not to partake of it.  Win-win for everyone.

Originally posted by Requiamer

I'm a sandbox player, for me the story aren't very important, i'll rather have nice role quality and quantity wise so that i can develop a story for my character. Role play game are meant to be played, you should be the actor, not the spectator of it. Also the huge step foward and difference between pen & paper role playing games and mmo is the fact in pen&paper the Gm tell you what happen (still not exactly a story but close), in mmo this is just on an other level. In mmo the dev put a persistant world at your disposal, or at you character disposal to be precise. SO the story isn't important in the end.

That's why I don't understand the criticism about SWTOR's cinematics. The players get to be the actors, they choose their line, they choose what their character will act out. They are part of the cinematic, and the cinematic is essentially a minigame within the game. A really really good looking minigame.

And I think GMs do tell stories. Some of the most engaging stories I've ever heard were told by a GM. Some MMO worlds aren't static. They change, from your characters perpective, depending on the choices they make. Thanks to phasing technology that changes the scene for different players depending on certain variables.

Personally I really enjoyed the stories in ME2. Most were really engaging and helped you explore the universe in details by accident. For eg, the good doctor's moral dilemma with the bacteriophage was excellent imo as well as the Gilbert & Sullivan rendition!

I'm really looking forward to the stories and extra effort and lore work going into SWTOR & GW2. This is a really good development of quality in mmorpgs imo that flesh out quests into small chapter more than shopping lists. Often mmorpgs have the most amazing landscapes and visually detailed and wonderful to look at worlds. But the inhabitants and sense of living, cultural, historic and racial and idiosynratic and political world of moral shades etc has been deeply lacking. All surface beauty without good stories?

Well... For me it is important to have some kind of a background from which then I can build my own story or atleast follow the story of the game... That's why I can't wait for GW2... Creating my own personal story as I go trough the game :)

I have to agree with many others and the Author as well, in that it is really a question of Themepark vs Sandbox context.

Being Dictated your story versus Making your own story. Being thrusted in to various adventures by the written story versus stumbling in to various adventures as you go on your own path.

Bioware, may have a point that Story is a Pillar of MMORPG's..but that is only half of the deal..the other half is about how do you implement the focus on the story in an MMORPG...

And I personally think they missed the mark in that second half, in the end, all layers will be rading the same novel and experiencing the same story nevertheless, whether that story is being delivered through text or voice, does not matter, it comes down to the same thing, since the only thing that Bioware is changing is the medium, but the implementation is not so different.

We can all start writing the story step by step separetly and post our results on the net and soon everyone will find out that there is a same story with some variations from the perspective of some different sides or classes.

And everyone, is the hero.

Originally posted by Suraknar

I have to agree with many others and the Author as well, in that it is really a question of Themepark vs Sandbox context.

Being Dictated your story versus Making your own story. Being thrusted in to various adventures by the written story versus stumbling in to various adventures as you go on your own path.

Bioware, may have a point that Story is a Pillar of MMORPG's..but that is only half of the deal..the other half is about how do you implement the focus on the story in an MMORPG...

And I personally think they missed the mark in that second half, in the end, all layers will be rading the same novel and experiencing the same story nevertheless, whether that story is being delivered through text or voice, does not matter, it comes down to the same thing, since the only thing that Bioware is changing is the medium, but the implementation is not so different.

We can all start writing the story step by step separetly and post our results on the net and soon everyone will find out that there is a same story with some variations from the perspective of some different sides or classes.

And everyone, is the hero.

Not really. When I read a book and imagine myself either as the main character or just imagine the main character as part of my imagination and creation I don't suddenly lose all that because other people are reading the same book on the forums. We can talk about the book and our opinions about the characters and events but it doesn't take away from my version of the main character.

The same is true in an MMORPG to me. We all have different versions of our own characters. They look different. We imagine them in different ways. No two people will experience an event in the same way. Even if it's a book and they are reading the exact words, or it's a boss fight in a video game. So the stories, even if there were no different choices in the game, would still be interpreted differently. And yet players can still make choices that individualize their character further.

I look at it like this. If Person A and Person B both go through a story quest, and Person B feels like their experience sucks because their story isn't unique anymore because Person A got a similar story then I think Person B has a very bad imagination.

So how can Person B then go to a sandbox MMO and truly make and forge their own story, if they lack even the imagination to interpret their experience in a dynamic quest in a unique way from person A in a "themepark MMO"? It does not compute. Is Person B really creating a story in this sandbox or are they just jumbling a bunch of random things together and saying "Hey! This is my story!"

Would Person B, who complains about having more uniqueness in his quests in an MMO, be able to sit down with a DM for a table top RPG session and mentally imagine a world? Or would it all be ruined in Person B's mind because that DM just came from another table top RPG session where DMed the same quests?

It's all about the player's imagination. I can create my own story in any MMO, stumble through the world and stumble into my own adventures. I can imagine other players as just random citizens of that world or I can see them as people sitting behind a computer screen looking to get l33t gear. The difference between a heavily sandbox game vs a heavily themepark game is the tools that the developer gives the player to aid their imagination towards those goals.

Agree with the above: Reminds me of a series of Red Dwarf when the crew are talking to alternative versions of themselves:

"Omg, you surely did not miss out on the islands of infinite pleasure?"

Personaly I play singleplayer RPG's for their story and want to create my own story in a MMORPG where for me it's about the freedom in that MMORPG world where just like in real life that world might have a history/lore/story aka virtual world.

SWG gave me that world, but I aint blind to see that the majority seems to want to be more led into the world as we al know from so many topics back then with pre-cu SWG. I also like to be unique instead of running the same instances/dungeons for the same type of armor that for what ever reason i called Epic gear cause to me if everyone is wearing it what's so epic about it? But again the majority seems to be okay with this else WoW wouldn't be as succesfull as it is

Is it necessary? Yes, story is necessary. However, the story we have been provided in the past was and still is plenty.

Are voice overs necessary? No. And quite the contrary unwelcome from my perspective. Too Soon!!! Seriously .. Ragnaros' speech is boring. Not because of bad voice acting or bad story, but because ... who cares? You didn't just spend 3 hours clearing lava dogs because of story and you never will more than once. It's "neat" the first time you hear it .. and absolutely mind numbing the 50th time.

When you think about the amount of money these companies, Bioware at least, are pouring into this jibberish many of us are going to have to simply put up with if we want to play. Then look at the number of features: housing, actual space combat, swimming .. there's lots more and plenty of articles to describe the deficiencies ...  you wonder who in the right mind are these people defending this decision?

You can't swim in an MMO? I mean I know it's been done like that before .. and every time it's like .. what the hell .. it's completely immersion breaking. Voiceovers are just lame. Would have been much better to release a mastered voice communication system or just flat out more content.

Originally posted by whilan

It's certainly one way of going about doing your gaming, I don't think it's the only way mind you. but its certainly a direction the genre can take. With that note i'd love to see the genre split in many different directions, but i'm not in control of where that goes or even if it does.

Though i will note that i see the same as you do, since Bioware made that statement about story being important everyone basically jumped on the wagon with them..curious.

 

Not really, The Secret World has been in various stages of concept and production since 1997, and is Ragnar Tornquist's "labor of love", having continuosly worked on it all the while he was directing Anarchy, The Longest Journey and Dreamfall.

If anything, Star Wars are the bandwagoners.

Originally posted by azmundai

Is it necessary? Yes, story is necessary. However, the story we have been provided in the past was and still is plenty.

Silverbranch: This would depend on the game.

Are voice overs necessary? No. And quite the contrary unwelcome from my perspective. Too Soon!!! Seriously .. Ragnaros' speech is boring. Not because of bad voice acting or bad story, but because ... who cares? You didn't just spend 3 hours clearing lava dogs because of story and you never will more than once. It's "neat" the first time you hear it .. and absolutely mind numbing the 50th time.

Silverbranch:  Voice overs are necessary as one premise of an MMO is the fact it's a "living, breathing world", albiet a roughly simulated one.  Still, we operate on the principal of interacting with others in the game, NPCs or Players, and hearing them speak is simply an expected.  Only one thing remains then:  Either do it well, or do it poorly.  A squeaky-voiced 11 year old isn't going to have the same impact as the voice over of a World boss that a deep voiced adult male would. 

This means that if voice overs are inevitable, they should be done well, because the only voice overs that I've found unwelcome, or even counter productive, are crudy voice overs with lousy voices and amateur acting skills.

Ragnaros's speech is only boring to you.  I found it in keeping with the entire scenario, and it definitely added to the event.  Raggy was one of the most impressive bosses to ever encounter.

As to it being boring the 50th time, welcome to MMOs.  That "problem" is global to any farmed scenario, therefore not relevant, just inevitable.

When you think about the amount of money these companies, Bioware at least, are pouring into this jibberish many of us are going to have to simply put up with if we want to play. Then look at the number of features: housing, actual space combat, swimming .. there's lots more and plenty of articles to describe the deficiencies ...  you wonder who in the right mind are these people defending this decision?

Silverbranch:  I agree, companies should spend their money wisely, and not blow it.  Why pay, as an example, Shaun Connery 2.5 mill to do voice overs when you can find someone with a great voice, good voicing skills, who can do the job for a fraction.

The trick here is that I don't see voice overs, and well done ones, in competition or in conflict with other things as you do.  I see it as a component, one of the gears/cogs, of the whole thing.

 

You can't swim in an MMO? I mean I know it's been done like that before .. and every time it's like .. what the hell .. it's completely immersion breaking. Voiceovers are just lame. Would have been much better to release a mastered voice communication system or just flat out more content.

Silverbranch:  Voice over's aren't lame.  It's part of the "skin" to an NPC, as much as it's looks and does add to the experience.  Take Capt. Royo out of Tortage in AoC.  He's a real chuckle mostly based on the pure personality and tongue-in-cheek he delivers in his inimitable style.

Again, I don't see it as a competative or adversarial thing for development.  One of the parts to the whole that has to be done right if it's to do it's part.  I'm in agreement with you in spirit that in dealing with the piece parts of the whole you don't inappropriately step on the toes of other things.

Not to sidetrack thread.. but one note on previous post

I like voice overs.. but my issue with them is you can't talk back to them... I could see the argument for immersion if you could chat back and forth with an NPC using your microphone...

but saying they are necessary when you type then listen seems a bit much for me :\

They are nice atm.. but not necessary... improve the AI and response systems.. some improvements to voice recognition software.. then maybe i'd buy it.