Also just expanding on my previous post. The real difference between themepark and sandbox is the level of participation expected of the audience.

Themeparks are a passive way to experience a story. Kinda like going to a movie or reading a novel. I don't mean that in an insluting way, either. There is nothing wrong with enjoying a passive role in entertainment. I love reading a good novel and I love watching a good movie, most people do. There is nothing wrong with wanting to experience the story that someone else scripted for you in a game. I enjoy that from time to time myself, when I'm in the right mood.

Sandbox is a more active way to experience a story. Kinda like old school Pen & Paper Roleplaying or improv acting or shared creative writing. It requires the audience to work more in creating the story.

How can it change the industry when it isn't doing anything all that different from industry standard?  What it does have going for it is scale - scale of game world and scale of storyline.  But here's why this isn't and industry changer. 

First scale requires money.  The more money you have, the more resources you can put into creating a bigger world with more things in it.  I just don't think there are that many companies out there with the same kind of resources to draw on to follow suit, and those that do aren't followers, they're leaders already. 

Second, storytelling is an art and not everyone is capable of doing it effectively.  This is one of Bioware's strengths and always has been.  But not everyone can tell a story the way they can.  And if they tried, they'd fall flat.  It's not about committment and direction or focus, it's about being talented at this particular thing.  So even if this game shows how much of an impact a well told story can make on a game, it's irrelevant because few are capable doing it themselves. I think all RPG makers think they are great storytellers, but I can say definitively that they are not.  Bioware is one of the rare few with a knack for it, but few could follow where they lead, even if they wanted to. 

This is not how to change an industry.

Originally posted by Unlight

How can it change the industry when it isn't doing anything all that different from industry standard?  What it does have going for it is scale - scale of game world and scale of storyline.  But here's why this isn't and industry changer. 

First scale requires money.  The more money you have, the more resources you can put into creating a bigger world with more things in it.  I just don't think there are that many companies out there with the same kind of resources to draw on to follow suit, and those that do aren't followers, they're leaders already. 

Second, storytelling is an art and not everyone is capable of doing it effectively.  This is one of Bioware's strengths and always has been.  But not everyone can tell a story the way they can.  And if they tried, they'd fall flat.  It's not about committment and direction or focus, it's about being talented at this particular thing.  So even if this game shows how much of an impact a well told story can make on a game, it's irrelevant because few are capable doing it themselves. I think all RPG makers think they are great storytellers, but I can say definitively that they are not.  Bioware is one of the rare few with a knack for it, but few could follow where they lead, even if they wanted to. 

This is not how to change an industry.

 

I dislike this sort of sentement towards this game. 

The whole, "Adding Story and full VO isn't revolutionizing anything, even though no MMO has had this on this scale" line of thinking is rather idiotic and is not help when these people go and praise, say, Guild Wars 2 about its combat but it does not have story anywhere near the scale of TOR( I suppose you really can't have much story in GW2 due to the DE replacing quest).

My question is, Is combat the only thing that you can change in an MMO to make it revolutionary?

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Pace2002

 

Most people will disagree and say to me that sandbox is not the future....but I am sad to say it is. The sandbox needs to be improved drastically in order for it to see success, but having no limitations on the player is the only true way to create an artifical world for people to immerse themselves in.

That assumes that the developers want to make "an artificial world for people to immerse themselves in."

Now let's see...

Arnold Schoenberg created 12 tone music. He once said that one day people would be whistling them as he saw it as the future.

Now tell me, how many 12 tone meleodies do you whistle on the way to work?

The thing is, someone is always convinced that just because they consider something better that it will eventually be seen as such.

Not everyone is wired to be dropped into a world and figure out what they want to do.

too many people want to be guided from quest hub to quest hub.

 

What is a MMO if not the world you are connecting to? Every single MMO is an artifical world that YOU the player are connecting to, and immersing yourself in through ROLE PLAYING.  I dont understand the point of your statement in relation to what I posted.....I didnt say that the current format of Sandbox MMOs was the future....but that the freedom of Sandbox WITH IMPROVEMENTS  was the future.

People seem to have this hardcoded belief of what a sandbox vs themepark is.....I dont understand why its so difficult for people to see that a sandbox world can have guided principles behind it, that help the player transition into the overall mechanics of the world they are connected to. Essentially providing "themepark" guiding principles into a sandbox where the player isnt FORCED through limitations of gameplay and freedom....whats so difficult to understand about that? You can have all your quests that guide you through the world, but why limit these quests to 1 direct path? why not open the questlines to limitless paths? why must end game be only about raiding? why cant there be multiple or endless facets of end game where the player can choose what they want? People are diverse no 2 people are the same in this world and no 2 people see eye to eye 100%....in a MMO you are the CHARACTER, the way you play the game is just as unique as you are, the way you wish to explore, progress, battle, craft, etc etc within an MMO world should encourage diversity, but also offer structure for those who need guidance. 

In anything else you are just a rat in a maze, a maze that was created by the developer, there is 1 start point and 1 end point, so everyone eventually reaches the same exact conclusion....which is not what we are, we are not robots, we should not be dictated to play 1 way, to pvp 1 way, to progress 1 way, to craft 1 way, to raid 1 way....

Obviously the devil is hyped for the game, so God must hate it?

Originally posted by SBE1

The primary issue I have with SWTOR is that it is so focused on telling a story that the game "ends" when the story does.  WIthout decent sand-box mechanics, this is a theme park game that will just result in people making a few alts for the story arc, then moving on to the next MMO.

Plus, most everyone will know the stories of all the character arcs within the first month of live play.  This game just seems to have a lot of box sales potential but not a lot of long-term gameplay potential.

Biggest whines that will emerge when game is launches on forums is how to skip all the story telling cutscenes, people will get bored fast and will be tired of all these story telling movies and cutscenes and rage quit becouse all downtime waiting for story beentold and loadscreens they wait for to all instanced they constantly enter:P

SWTOR= 80%cutscenes/movies and loadscreens+20%gameplay:D

Originally posted by Groovydutch

Originally posted by SBE1

The primary issue I have with SWTOR is that it is so focused on telling a story that the game "ends" when the story does.  WIthout decent sand-box mechanics, this is a theme park game that will just result in people making a few alts for the story arc, then moving on to the next MMO.

Plus, most everyone will know the stories of all the character arcs within the first month of live play.  This game just seems to have a lot of box sales potential but not a lot of long-term gameplay potential.

Biggest whines that will emerge when game is launches on forums is how to skip all the story telling cutscenes, people will get bored fast and will be tired of all these story telling movies and cutscenes and rage quit becouse all downtime waiting for story beentold and loadscreens they wait for to all instanced they constantly enter:P

SWTOR= 80%cutscenes/movies and loadscreens+20%gameplay:D

Bioware - develops - great - games. KoToR didn't bore me at all and I'm one who jumps through dialog fast. ToR is meant to give the "fans" the epic Star Wars experience (if you can forgive the cartoony animations). Bioware did a fascinating job with Kotor and I expect nothing less for ToR.

 

What is a MMO if not the world you are connecting to? Every single MMO is an artifical world that YOU the player are connecting to, and immersing yourself in through ROLE PLAYING.  I dont understand the point of your statement in relation to what I posted.....I didnt say that the current format of Sandbox MMOs was the future....but that the freedom of Sandbox WITH IMPROVEMENTS  was the future.

People seem to have this hardcoded belief of what a sandbox vs themepark is.....I dont understand why its so difficult for people to see that a sandbox world can have guided principles behind it, that help the player transition into the overall mechanics of the world they are connected to. Essentially providing "themepark" guiding principles into a sandbox where the player isnt FORCED through limitations of gameplay and freedom....whats so difficult to understand about that? You can have all your quests that guide you through the world, but why limit these quests to 1 direct path? why not open the questlines to limitless paths? why must end game be only about raiding? why cant there be multiple or endless facets of end game where the player can choose what they want? People are diverse no 2 people are the same in this world and no 2 people see eye to eye 100%....in a MMO you are the CHARACTER, the way you play the game is just as unique as you are, the way you wish to explore, progress, battle, craft, etc etc within an MMO world should encourage diversity, but also offer structure for those who need guidance. 

In anything else you are just a rat in a maze, a maze that was created by the developer, there is 1 start point and 1 end point, so everyone eventually reaches the same exact conclusion....which is not what we are, we are not robots, we should not be dictated to play 1 way, to pvp 1 way, to progress 1 way, to craft 1 way, to raid 1 way....

I love this post because it really sums up how I feel about MMO's these days. However I think that a rat in a maze just doesn't do this subject justice. I would say it is more like a skinner box. Thats how I feel anyways.

Why is it so hard for some people to understand that a sandbox does not have to be this old fashion painful and boring experience? End game with out the sandbox becomes nothing but repetition. The never ending grind for better gear to kill harder mobs to get better gear..and on and on. The sandbox could offer so much more diversity and still offer the boring raid grind that so many people love. To be against the idea of a sandbox just does not make any sense to me at all.

Bioware - develops - great - games. KoToR didn't bore me at all and I'm one who jumps through dialog fast. ToR is meant to give the "fans" the epic Star Wars experience (if you can forgive the cartoony animations). Bioware did a fascinating job with Kotor and I expect nothing less for ToR.

Can I ask you one question and I am not asking to be an asshole or a troll but what do you plan on doing when the story part comes to an end? Thats the only problem I see with TOR. I believe the leveling will be awesome and will probably be the best of any MMO to date. However, when that is over and you are left with a WoW type raiding end game are you going to be ok with that?

With other Bioware games when the story ended so did the game. I really find it hard to compare KoToR or any other single player rpg with TOR.

Why he changed the title ?

Originally posted by Happyguy83

 

I dislike this sort of sentement towards this game. 

 

The whole, "Adding Story and full VO isn't revolutionizing anything, even though no MMO has had this on this scale" line of thinking is rather idiotic and is not help when these people go and praise, say, Guild Wars 2 about its combat but it does not have story anywhere near the scale of TOR( I suppose you really can't have much story in GW2 due to the DE replacing quest).

 

My question is, Is combat the only thing that you can change in an MMO to make it revolutionary?

Injecting a single play game experience isn't chaning anything on the MMO side. GW2's combat isn't the only thing that is chaning the MMOness, the dynamic events, the mist PvP, the PQs, the personal story lines, personal towns (not just housing), etc are what chaning the MMOness of GW2. TOR isn't chaning of the MMO standards in its game. Co-op story line isn't anything new, nor is the story telling (quest chains with different results)

What if the poeple who are playing WoW will switch to ToR! Sounds weird huh? But i hear all this WoW clone shit and it is true, but my question is so what? So many people still play WoW and what does that mean? It means that there is a huge amount of people that are willing to switch to ToR, its obvious bioware is trying to appeal players that play WoW because well.. its a "clone" right?

What if Bioware is trying to make a better and more in-depth version of WoW in order to appeal actual WoW players? I mean I'm kind of sick of all this revolutionary crap. Why does it need to change? And how the hell could it change? Guild wars 2 for example.. what is so revolutionary? Dynamic events....  a dodging system..... then what.... the game isnt revolved around gear... sweet so when I lvl to max i get my full tier 12 in 2 days that sounds great.

All I know is that I will switch from WoW to swtor not because im bored of WoW, but because it is god dam clone and its star wars. I dont know if bioware is intending to do this but if they are then it is sure working for some WoW players like me that don't like or need change in RPGs.

Originally posted by Agilee

What if the poeple who are playing WoW will switch to ToR! Sounds weird huh? But i hear all this WoW clone shit and it is true, but my question is so what? So many people still play WoW and what does that mean? It means that there is a huge amount of people that are willing to switch to ToR, its obvious bioware is trying to appeal players that play WoW because well.. its a "clone" right?

What if Bioware is trying to make a better and more in-depth version of WoW in order to appeal actual WoW players? I mean I'm kind of sick of all this revolutionary crap. Why does it need to change? And how the hell could it change? Guild wars 2 for example.. what is so revolutionary? Dynamic events....  a dodging system..... then what.... the game isnt revolved around gear... sweet so when I lvl to max i get my full tier 12 in 2 days that sounds great.

All I know is that I will switch from WoW to swtor not because im bored of WoW, but because it is god dam clone and its star wars. I dont know if bioware is intending to do this but if they are then it is sure working for some WoW players like me that don't like or need change in RPGs.

But that's just the thing. People that are enjoying WoW have already put time and effort into their toons- why would they give that up in a game they aren't bored with? If they are bored of WoW why would they pay box + sub to do the same things all over again? This is a reason many players I know tried Rift and then went back to WoW- aside from the soul system there really wasn't anything else they couldn't already do and they already had leveled and geared toons ready to raid in that game.

People ask for change because right now a lot of the "choices" we have in MMORPGs are the same game with different graphics.

Originally posted by pierth

But that's just the thing. People that are enjoying WoW have already put time and effort into their toons- why would they give that up in a game they aren't bored with? If they are bored of WoW why would they pay box + sub to do the same things all over again? This is a reason many players I know tried Rift and then went back to WoW- aside from the soul system there really wasn't anything else they couldn't already do and they already had leveled and geared toons ready to raid in that game.

 

People ask for change because right now a lot of the "choices" we have in MMORPGs are the same game with different graphics.

Yea thats true, I didn't think of that.

Originally posted by Antarious

Originally posted by Elidien

Originally posted by Antarious

Originally posted by Elidien

Wow some people really need to read the disclaimer at the top of the article and understand the meaning of the phrase "devil's advocate".

 

Why exactly would they have to do that?

 

"Disclaimer: The Devil's Advocate is a place where the MMO-Loving world can go to hear the unpopular opinion"

 

In order for "The Devil's Advocate" to fit its own definition... the article would have to be entirely rewritten.  Or the target audience of The Old Republic (as opposed to the article) would have to say the opinion of this article was not their own.

 

If the latter was the case then this game would not meet the premise of the article.   As its written the article doesn't meet the premise of its own introduction (no matter how you look at it).

 

The general consensus on this site (popular opinion if you will), from the most vocal group, is that TOR is the same old crap, same old biring tried and true MMO formula and will do next to nothing. it will not change the industry at all because TOR is just WOW with lightsabers.

The author is being the devil's advocate here because he is countering that sentiment; the sentiment of negativity and hatred towards a game that has not even launched yet from a developed known for awesome titles and great games.

 

That is not the premise of the article or its own disclaimer.   The "mmo loving world" is not defined by this website.   

 

 Wow, really? Can you show me a single site that does represent the whole mmo audience?

 

Originally posted by Lateris

With all the innovation and talent that Bioware and Lucas Arts have available  I am really surpised at the design they went for with space on rails for an MMO, yes that will change the industry into that crazy train requiring less development time and less budgets to have to request. Woot woot.

 

 Haha!  It's the "lame space shooter ruining MMO industry as a whole" slippery slope. That's awesome.

Originally posted by StormwindX

Originally posted by Zooce

Poorly written article.

A de-emphasis on crafting, lack of customizable player housing, and rich storytelling are hardly revolutionary.  Also, try proofreading your opening paragraph.

 

I've noticed that, recently, most of the articles here have been very badly written, with spelling mistakes, lack of proof-reading and even glaring internet vices ("there" instead of "their" when referring to possession, excessive use or lack of necessary apostrophes, etc). 

 

MMORPG.com really needs to up the quality of its editors. And of its writers.

 

It's been that way here forever.

Originally posted by xpiher

Orig

Yes, Azeroth has soul.  the endgame direction since about halfway through BC has been pretty crappy, but that doesnt change the foundation the game was based on.   Name a game, besides Everquest 1, that has a more interesting game world?

 FFXI LOTOR (prior IP) SWG pre NGE (piror IP) Shadow Bane, DAOC

And the people who say the game has zero community probably aren't very good at making friends.  The city trade chat channels may be abysmal, but its not very difficult to make friends and find people to do stuff with outside of guild.

The point you missed is that there isn't any reason to. You aren't forced to make friends to do raids or PvP anymore because they autmoated the entire game instead of fostering the creation of a community.

see orange

 

The fact you list SWG NGE as having an interesting game world shows that you have completely missed the point.  Almost every planet in that game was a vast expanse of nothing interesting.   Tatooine is going to look drab no matter what you do with it and putting a sarlac roughly the size of a pothole isnt helping matters, but Naboo at least has some wonder to it in the films, the SWG version is just so damned boring.  Some of the adventure planets fare slightly better, as do the expansion planets, but the game world was one of the things SWG did wrong.

And you obviously dont play WoW with the other statement.  Yes, you arent 'forced' to make friends.  No game does this.  Every single game in the history of MMOs that had PvP, allowed solo PvP so your argument there is pointless.  raids?  They are still formed the same way as in other MMOs.  So your argument is 100% wrong there.  groups, which you didnt mention, is the one you would have the argument for.  The cross server thing is a bit odd, however with the new feature along you to queue with cross server friends, will socializing with these people inr andoms became a little more meaningful.  You could also argue that int heory making it easier to get groups (which is the whole point of the system) encourages more socialization.

Its not Blizzards fault people don't want to socialize.  hate the player, not the game, is oddly appropriate there.

Originally posted by xpiher

Originally posted by Happyguy83

 

I dislike this sort of sentement towards this game. 

 

The whole, "Adding Story and full VO isn't revolutionizing anything, even though no MMO has had this on this scale" line of thinking is rather idiotic and is not help when these people go and praise, say, Guild Wars 2 about its combat but it does not have story anywhere near the scale of TOR( I suppose you really can't have much story in GW2 due to the DE replacing quest).

 

My question is, Is combat the only thing that you can change in an MMO to make it revolutionary?

Injecting a single play game experience isn't chaning anything on the MMO side. GW2's combat isn't the only thing that is chaning the MMOness, the dynamic events, the mist PvP, the PQs, the personal story lines, personal towns (not just housing), etc are what chaning the MMOness of GW2. TOR isn't chaning of the MMO standards in its game. Co-op story line isn't anything new, nor is the story telling (quest chains with different results)

Mist like PvP (DAOC) Personal Storys(As ToR will be out before Guild Wars 2), and Towns(SWG unless its like a personal house only instead of a house you get your own town and even then I don't see how that is revolutionary) have all been done in different MMOs.

The only unquie aspect to GW2 is the combat and DE(And even they are just a replacement to quest and has been done before by RIFT.).

Combat is not the only way you revolutionize a game.

if this article would of said: "how to troll SW:ToR, I wonder how many people would still give drew shit?  

I mean it is calles the closes thing to troll....devils advocate...just call me dad :-)