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Star Wars: The Old Republic

Star Wars: The Old Republic 

General Discussion  » SWTOR Collector's Edition Discussion (Cost/Items/Opinions)

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402 posts found
  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 19282

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

7/21/11 6:00:29 AM#61
Originally posted by Snaylor47
Originally posted by vesavius
Originally posted by BarakIII

As has been explained in earlier threads, the reason for the costs is the statue, which by itself would cost something in the 60-70 dollar range. Also I don't see why anyone would think an MMO would be any different in terms of having a CE than any other type of game, that makes no sense at all. Most MMOs that have box sales also have a CE, it's nothing new. Also this is a Star Wars game, did you really expect anything Star Wars related wouldn't have a collectors edition? I mean seriously? Half the money Lucas Arts makes is from collector memorabilia. Nobody should be shocked or surprised by this.

 

Leaving the ridiculously over priced CE edition aside, for now, they are also charging £49.99 for the standard box through Origin.

Are you going to justify that as well?

 

All the signs point to EA understanding that this game, due to it's design and implementation, needs to recoup a ton of cash off it's initial box sales. I will let you all discuss why they think this. It is very much tied in to the fact they are not having a open beta so that folks can see the game before buying.

FFS there is nothing over priced about the CE when the figure alone cost at retail value 100USD.

 

ONCE AGAIN THERE IS NOTHING OVER PRICED ABOUT THAT.

Thanks, you made me smile this morning.

There is something seriously wrong about a figurine costing 100.00 US, just go take a look at all the other cool stuff 100.00 will buy you.

But to each their own.

Arrogant, Condescending, Dismissive, Elitist, "Meany", you speak as if these are bad things?
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  Kalfer

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/09/11
Posts: 791

7/21/11 6:00:31 AM#62
Originally posted by vesavius
Originally posted by BarakIII

As has been explained in earlier threads, the reason for the costs is the statue, which by itself would cost something in the 60-70 dollar range. Also I don't see why anyone would think an MMO would be any different in terms of having a CE than any other type of game, that makes no sense at all. Most MMOs that have box sales also have a CE, it's nothing new. Also this is a Star Wars game, did you really expect anything Star Wars related wouldn't have a collectors edition? I mean seriously? Half the money Lucas Arts makes is from collector memorabilia. Nobody should be shocked or surprised by this.

 

Leaving the ridiculously over priced CE edition aside, for now, they are also charging £49.99 for the standard box through Origin.

Are you going to justify that as well?

 

All the signs point to EA understanding that this game, due to it's design and implementation, needs to recoup a ton of cash off it's initial box sales. I will let you all discuss why they think this. It is very much tied in to the fact they are not having a open beta so that folks cannot see the game before buying.


No, not really. I don't buy this conspiracy theory.

 

For a AAA title, 49,99 seems to be the norm. Historically much anticipated games bump up the price. Last year it was Modern Warfare 2 that people cried about.

 

As for no Open Beta - No, not really. It has been said by many developers before SWTOR that Open Betas were not very beneficial as the vast majority of the people would not test the game, but just hang out and see it because they thought it was their own demo - Newsflash for you; Open Betas are very expenssive to run, and  besides stresstesting the server, developers don't get much out of it.

Cataclysm was a great example. In the early beta when there were very few people invited, the testing was solid and discussion on beta forums were sound. the more people they let in, the more retarded everything got. It served no purpose.

 

Open Betas are not for people to see the game - That so many people think this, just displays why they shouldn't have one.

  User Deleted
7/21/11 6:01:12 AM#63
Originally posted by Snaylor47
 

{mod edit}

What a mature and intelligent replay. This is a video game after all so no point in raging here. And yes, the game is overpriced IMVPO, plus there is no open beta so it smells fishy, like it or not. 

  FrostWolfie

Novice Member

Joined: 12/24/05
Posts: 54

All that we see or seem. Is but a dream within a dream

7/21/11 6:03:17 AM#64

As someone said before, the CE edition is for those die hard fans, those that might actually enjoy collecting stuff. Sure, there might be a few that procures the said edition for the ingame items, but some do actually get it for its collectible value. Also, i wish i could get the game for 150 dollars, here in sweden it costs 224 USD.

Even so, i bought the CE edition and i do not regret it one bit myself, but at the same time, i would not tell any of you to buy it. The price is steep, but stuff usually are when it comes to proper collectibles. Buy the normal edition instead of whining about how expensive the CE edition is.

  Kabaal

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/02/05
Posts: 2958

Haggis Humper

7/21/11 6:03:47 AM#65

Holy overpriced money grabbing!

130.00 GBP = 210.211 USD
  Vesavius

Old School

Joined: 3/08/04
Posts: 7468

Players come for the game, but they stay for the people- Most Devs have forgotten this.

7/21/11 6:04:57 AM#66
Originally posted by Kalfer
Originally posted by vesavius
Originally posted by BarakIII

As has been explained in earlier threads, the reason for the costs is the statue, which by itself would cost something in the 60-70 dollar range. Also I don't see why anyone would think an MMO would be any different in terms of having a CE than any other type of game, that makes no sense at all. Most MMOs that have box sales also have a CE, it's nothing new. Also this is a Star Wars game, did you really expect anything Star Wars related wouldn't have a collectors edition? I mean seriously? Half the money Lucas Arts makes is from collector memorabilia. Nobody should be shocked or surprised by this.

 

Leaving the ridiculously over priced CE edition aside, for now, they are also charging £49.99 for the standard box through Origin.

Are you going to justify that as well?

 

All the signs point to EA understanding that this game, due to it's design and implementation, needs to recoup a ton of cash off it's initial box sales. I will let you all discuss why they think this. It is very much tied in to the fact they are not having a open beta so that folks cannot see the game before buying.

 

For a AAA title, 49,99 seems to be the norm.

No, £50 for a new game ISNT the 'norm'.  Thats 50 POUNDs, not dollars. Thats just over $80 in conversion.

As for no Open Beta - No, not really.

well, believe what you wanna believe here, but any dev that hides it's product up to the last minute from the mass public has something they don't want you to see imo, especially before asking you to spunk a premium price over it.

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 19282

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

7/21/11 6:05:50 AM#67
Originally posted by grunt187

Nobody is holding a blaster to anyones head making them buy a CE, And someone is really gona tell "me" how much is too much to spend on "my" game?

Aw, c'mon, this is MMORPG.com com, we're going to tell you that you're crazy to consider even playing this game, why wouldn't we criticize your decision to spend too much for it?

But like you said, if this price is a good value for you, no one can tell you how to spend your money.

Arrogant, Condescending, Dismissive, Elitist, "Meany", you speak as if these are bad things?
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  Kalfer

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/09/11
Posts: 791

7/21/11 6:06:46 AM#68
Originally posted by sachy55

the silly figure thay are adding is just to gouge the players even more. people are buying it for the game and maybe some in game items the map okay and authenticator, i expect 99% would skip the figure if they could get it cheaper yet bioware/la make it consumers only choice becuase they want the in game items and shop acess. 

it really is  a scam, becuase people or the vast majority of mmo players dont give a damn about the figurine, they just want in game stuff most of those figures going staright in the bin....i dont understand when i want to buy a deluxe or collectors edition of something say a book or a dvd it would be outrageous if they added 30-40% of price on top it by adding a figure thatprobaly only cost them 5% extra. and the music, again no one ill listen to it straight to bin, becuase they will be hearing that music non stop for next few months or weeks. an art book would have been much nicer but they figure3d could make some dough from that so sell it seperately heh.

{mod edit} You don't really believe, everyone thinks that? 

 

I want the soundtrack - I loved the KOTOR soundtrack! So you're wrong.

 

 

And the figure - Just don't buy it.. It's normal business practice to get a higher price out of people by putting in extra stuff. Why do you think you always get tons of free crap when you order something online or from a tv shop?

 

 

 

Look at the WoW collector ediition. it only contains a few exclusive pet, soundtrack, map and artbook and it sells now for 2700 USD; http://www.amazon.com/World-Warcraft-Collectors-Pc/dp/B0001O10V8

 

Supply and demand - Read up about it. Seriously.

  kishe

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/28/04
Posts: 1968

firefighter lvl90

7/21/11 6:09:19 AM#69

This is a EA game after all! Just wait till they start shoving out 100000 DLC packs all 20$ a piece.

  alakram

Novice Member

Joined: 11/02/06
Posts: 2239

7/21/11 6:15:44 AM#70
Originally posted by ManuChao808

Then what is the max that you would pay foir a monthly fee?  $20?  $25?  $35?

15 a month, those companies earn enought money already.

-=AlaKraM=-
Don't fight against poverty, fight against greed.
My Lord of the Rings Gallery

  Sucateira

Novice Member

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 4

7/21/11 6:18:39 AM#71
Originally posted by ArEf
Originally posted by Kyleran

Thanks, you made me smile this morning.

There is something seriously wrong about a figurine costing 100.00 US, just go take a look at all the other cool stuff 100.00 will buy you.

But to each their own.

{mod edit}

{mod edit}

..................

 

People should stop buying CE from any games. Just looks retarded to me, the "i'm a collector" crap. You'll be buying the exact same game than everyone else. Same content, same characters, same everything.

And btw, dont put that figure in your living room in case your single. Next time a chick go there, she might lose her libido.

  Kalfer

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/09/11
Posts: 791

7/21/11 6:19:51 AM#72
Originally posted by vesavius
Originally posted by Kalfer
Originally posted by vesavius
Originally posted by BarakIII

As has been explained in earlier threads, the reason for the costs is the statue, which by itself would cost something in the 60-70 dollar range. Also I don't see why anyone would think an MMO would be any different in terms of having a CE than any other type of game, that makes no sense at all. Most MMOs that have box sales also have a CE, it's nothing new. Also this is a Star Wars game, did you really expect anything Star Wars related wouldn't have a collectors edition? I mean seriously? Half the money Lucas Arts makes is from collector memorabilia. Nobody should be shocked or surprised by this.

 

Leaving the ridiculously over priced CE edition aside, for now, they are also charging £49.99 for the standard box through Origin.

Are you going to justify that as well?

 

All the signs point to EA understanding that this game, due to it's design and implementation, needs to recoup a ton of cash off it's initial box sales. I will let you all discuss why they think this. It is very much tied in to the fact they are not having a open beta so that folks cannot see the game before buying.

 

For a AAA title, 49,99 seems to be the norm.

No, £50 for a new game ISNT the 'norm'.  Thats 50 POUNDs, not dollars. Thats just over $80 in conversion.

As for no Open Beta - No, not really.

well, believe what you wanna believe here, but any dev that hides it's product up to the last minute from the mass public has something they don't want you to see imo, especially before asking you to spunk a premium price over it.

 

Origin - Is most likely due to download. The strain on their servers for downloading 30+ GB is massive Partiuclarly during a launch day serverload.

If you buy it in stores its 37 Pound; http://www.gamestop.ie/39622_PC_Star_Wars_The_Old_Republic.aspx

And if you do not want to pay for early access it can be as cheap as 27 pound if you pre-order from coolshop; http://www.coolshop.co.uk/catalog/product/57561-star-wars--the-old-republic--for-pc

 

 

Secondly - 95% of all games are released without a beta for you to play it. How is that hiding it? So Battlefield 3 is hiding something because you don't get to play the entire game in an beta before it's released?

That's beyond dumb, and you know it.

 

  Vesavius

Old School

Joined: 3/08/04
Posts: 7468

Players come for the game, but they stay for the people- Most Devs have forgotten this.

7/21/11 6:32:18 AM#73
Originally posted by Kalfer
Originally posted by vesavius
Originally posted by Kalfer
Originally posted by vesavius
Originally posted by BarakIII

As has been explained in earlier threads, the reason for the costs is the statue, which by itself would cost something in the 60-70 dollar range. Also I don't see why anyone would think an MMO would be any different in terms of having a CE than any other type of game, that makes no sense at all. Most MMOs that have box sales also have a CE, it's nothing new. Also this is a Star Wars game, did you really expect anything Star Wars related wouldn't have a collectors edition? I mean seriously? Half the money Lucas Arts makes is from collector memorabilia. Nobody should be shocked or surprised by this.

 

Leaving the ridiculously over priced CE edition aside, for now, they are also charging £49.99 for the standard box through Origin.

Are you going to justify that as well?

 

All the signs point to EA understanding that this game, due to it's design and implementation, needs to recoup a ton of cash off it's initial box sales. I will let you all discuss why they think this. It is very much tied in to the fact they are not having a open beta so that folks cannot see the game before buying.

 

For a AAA title, 49,99 seems to be the norm.

No, £50 for a new game ISNT the 'norm'.  Thats 50 POUNDs, not dollars. Thats just over $80 in conversion.

As for no Open Beta - No, not really.

well, believe what you wanna believe here, but any dev that hides it's product up to the last minute from the mass public has something they don't want you to see imo, especially before asking you to spunk a premium price over it.

 

Origin - Is most likely due to download. The strain on their servers for downloading 30+ GB is massive Partiuclarly during a launch day serverload.

ahh... c'mon... Steam don't charge £5 for 'server strain'... LOL

You are obviously scrabbling to justify this. (sever strain...lol)

Secondly - 95% of all games are released without a beta for you to play it. How is that hiding it?

Like I say, believe what you want, no need for silly name calling though. I know, from following the MMO scene for years, that still hiding your game behind a NDA when you start selling it and having no open beta is a BAD BAD BAD sign. If you do not know this then you cannot have been playing these games very long.

 

  busdriver

Novice Member

Joined: 5/17/06
Posts: 923

7/21/11 6:33:03 AM#74
Originally posted by Kalfer
Originally posted by vesavius
Originally posted by Kalfer
Originally posted by vesavius
Originally posted by BarakIII

As has been explained in earlier threads, the reason for the costs is the statue, which by itself would cost something in the 60-70 dollar range. Also I don't see why anyone would think an MMO would be any different in terms of having a CE than any other type of game, that makes no sense at all. Most MMOs that have box sales also have a CE, it's nothing new. Also this is a Star Wars game, did you really expect anything Star Wars related wouldn't have a collectors edition? I mean seriously? Half the money Lucas Arts makes is from collector memorabilia. Nobody should be shocked or surprised by this.

 

Leaving the ridiculously over priced CE edition aside, for now, they are also charging £49.99 for the standard box through Origin.

Are you going to justify that as well?

 

All the signs point to EA understanding that this game, due to it's design and implementation, needs to recoup a ton of cash off it's initial box sales. I will let you all discuss why they think this. It is very much tied in to the fact they are not having a open beta so that folks cannot see the game before buying.

 

For a AAA title, 49,99 seems to be the norm.

No, £50 for a new game ISNT the 'norm'.  Thats 50 POUNDs, not dollars. Thats just over $80 in conversion.

As for no Open Beta - No, not really.

well, believe what you wanna believe here, but any dev that hides it's product up to the last minute from the mass public has something they don't want you to see imo, especially before asking you to spunk a premium price over it.

 

Origin - Is most likely due to download. The strain on their servers for downloading 30+ GB is massive Partiuclarly during a launch day serverload.

If you buy it in stores its 37 Pound; http://www.gamestop.ie/39622_PC_Star_Wars_The_Old_Republic.aspx

And if you do not want to pay for early access it can be as cheap as 27 pound if you pre-order from coolshop; http://www.coolshop.co.uk/catalog/product/57561-star-wars--the-old-republic--for-pc

 

 

Secondly - 95% of all games are released without a beta for you to play it. How is that hiding it? So Battlefield 3 is hiding something because you don't get to play the entire game in an beta before it's released?

That's beyond dumb, and you know it.

 

Stupid comparison, BF3 is no MMO. Open betas in MMOs serve two purpose; one to market the game, and the other to stresstest the servers. MMO not having an open beta doesn't sound too promising.

  alakram

Novice Member

Joined: 11/02/06
Posts: 2239

7/21/11 6:53:43 AM#75
Originally posted by DEXA88

And to think the idea was for free to play game lol the greed kicked in. That collector edition has nothing collectable just virtual crap.

Im sorry to say but the game was never announced as a free to play title, never.

-=AlaKraM=-
Don't fight against poverty, fight against greed.
My Lord of the Rings Gallery

  BarakIII

Novice Member

Joined: 5/20/07
Posts: 802

7/21/11 6:53:54 AM#76
Originally posted by vesavius
Originally posted by Loke666
Originally posted by Snaylor47n.

60USD for a new game is over priced?

That is the average cost for a new game.

Well, games have increased a lot in price so yes, it is somewhat pricy

 

and I will also repeat that £49.99 is just over $80, not $60.

It's 60 US here. I don't know why it would be so much more there. Perhaps someone who knows what it's like to do business in muitlple markets can explain it, I can't and don't really care. 60 dollars is pretty standard here and that's what it costs here. I'm sure there's a reasonable explanation why you'd have to pay more there, but like I said I really don't know it. If it bothers people there so much then they shouldn't buy the game. I mean, if it were 80 dollars for a standard edition here I'd certainly have second thoughts about getting it.

  Kalfer

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/09/11
Posts: 791

7/21/11 6:54:25 AM#77
Originally posted by busdriver
Originally posted by Kalfer
Originally posted by vesavius
Originally posted by Kalfer
Originally posted by vesavius
Originally posted by BarakIII

As has been explained in earlier threads, the reason for the costs is the statue, which by itself would cost something in the 60-70 dollar range. Also I don't see why anyone would think an MMO would be any different in terms of having a CE than any other type of game, that makes no sense at all. Most MMOs that have box sales also have a CE, it's nothing new. Also this is a Star Wars game, did you really expect anything Star Wars related wouldn't have a collectors edition? I mean seriously? Half the money Lucas Arts makes is from collector memorabilia. Nobody should be shocked or surprised by this.

 

Leaving the ridiculously over priced CE edition aside, for now, they are also charging £49.99 for the standard box through Origin.

Are you going to justify that as well?

 

All the signs point to EA understanding that this game, due to it's design and implementation, needs to recoup a ton of cash off it's initial box sales. I will let you all discuss why they think this. It is very much tied in to the fact they are not having a open beta so that folks cannot see the game before buying.

 

For a AAA title, 49,99 seems to be the norm.

No, £50 for a new game ISNT the 'norm'.  Thats 50 POUNDs, not dollars. Thats just over $80 in conversion.

As for no Open Beta - No, not really.

well, believe what you wanna believe here, but any dev that hides it's product up to the last minute from the mass public has something they don't want you to see imo, especially before asking you to spunk a premium price over it.

 

Origin - Is most likely due to download. The strain on their servers for downloading 30+ GB is massive Partiuclarly during a launch day serverload.

If you buy it in stores its 37 Pound; http://www.gamestop.ie/39622_PC_Star_Wars_The_Old_Republic.aspx

And if you do not want to pay for early access it can be as cheap as 27 pound if you pre-order from coolshop; http://www.coolshop.co.uk/catalog/product/57561-star-wars--the-old-republic--for-pc

 

 

Secondly - 95% of all games are released without a beta for you to play it. How is that hiding it? So Battlefield 3 is hiding something because you don't get to play the entire game in an beta before it's released?

That's beyond dumb, and you know it.

 

Stupid comparison, BF3 is no MMO. Open betas in MMOs serve two purpose; one to market the game, and the other to stresstest the servers. MMO not having an open beta doesn't sound too promising.

I was using his own logic against him. It's perfectly valid in the face of the absurdity he puts on display. And NO, a open beta is not is not to market the game.

 

That's a demo. Realize the difference please, and start reading up on marketing, and what it means to be alpha/beta.

  Cikbik

Novice Member

Joined: 7/06/04
Posts: 131

7/21/11 6:55:15 AM#78



Originally posted by BarakIII


Originally posted by vesavius



Originally posted by Loke666



Originally posted by Snaylor47n.
60USD for a new game is over priced?
That is the average cost for a new game.


Well, games have increased a lot in price so yes, it is somewhat pricy


 
and I will also repeat that £49.99 is just over $80, not $60.


It's 60 US here. I don't know why it would be so much more there. Perhaps someone who knows what it's like to do business in muitlple markets can explain it, I can't and don't really care. 60 dollars is pretty standard here and that's what it costs here. I'm sure there's a reasonable explanation why you'd have to pay more there, but like I said I really don't know it. If it bothers people there so much then they shouldn't buy the game. I mean, if it were 80 dollars for a standard edition here I'd certainly have second thoughts about getting it.
 

UK£ 49.99 = 80.793838 U.S. dollars

  Kalfer

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/09/11
Posts: 791

7/21/11 7:01:23 AM#79
Originally posted by vesavius
Originally posted by Kalfer
Originally posted by vesavius
Originally posted by Kalfer
Originally posted by vesavius
Originally posted by BarakIII

As has been explained in earlier threads, the reason for the costs is the statue, which by itself would cost something in the 60-70 dollar range. Also I don't see why anyone would think an MMO would be any different in terms of having a CE than any other type of game, that makes no sense at all. Most MMOs that have box sales also have a CE, it's nothing new. Also this is a Star Wars game, did you really expect anything Star Wars related wouldn't have a collectors edition? I mean seriously? Half the money Lucas Arts makes is from collector memorabilia. Nobody should be shocked or surprised by this.

 

Leaving the ridiculously over priced CE edition aside, for now, they are also charging £49.99 for the standard box through Origin.

Are you going to justify that as well?

 

All the signs point to EA understanding that this game, due to it's design and implementation, needs to recoup a ton of cash off it's initial box sales. I will let you all discuss why they think this. It is very much tied in to the fact they are not having a open beta so that folks cannot see the game before buying.

 

For a AAA title, 49,99 seems to be the norm.

No, £50 for a new game ISNT the 'norm'.  Thats 50 POUNDs, not dollars. Thats just over $80 in conversion.

As for no Open Beta - No, not really.

well, believe what you wanna believe here, but any dev that hides it's product up to the last minute from the mass public has something they don't want you to see imo, especially before asking you to spunk a premium price over it.

 

Origin - Is most likely due to download. The strain on their servers for downloading 30+ GB is massive Partiuclarly during a launch day serverload.

ahh... c'mon... Steam don't charge £5 for 'server strain'... LOL

You are obviously scrabbling to justify this. (sever strain...lol)

Secondly - 95% of all games are released without a beta for you to play it. How is that hiding it?

Like I say, believe what you want, no need for silly name calling though. I know, from following the MMO scene for years, that still hiding your game behind a NDA when you start selling it and having no open beta is a BAD BAD BAD sign. If you do not know this then you cannot have been playing these games very long.

 

I love, how you ignore the 27 Pound link I found for the game at retail.

 

Origin is a service, and it's not steam. they can charge what they like. I'm not a server analyst. I have no idea why they are charging more. I am pretty sure GFWL is also more expensive(often) than retail, and I have no idea how it works with steam. Maybe its because not every steam game is 30+ gigs? I dunno.

But I have already debunked what you said - the game is priced competitively with other games, and thus your initial point is moot.

 

 

Second point - I'm not doing any name calling. You keep thinking it's a bad sign. I think you are clueless and misinformed. The NDA will be lifted before release, so people can see the screens/videos, and a lot of people will wait for the reviews before plunging in.

 

The game is so big it doesn't need an open beta. same reason why a giant AAA franchise like Halo dont get Demos at release. they don't do it, because interest is so large that the launch will be widescaled event. SWTOR is the biggest thing since WoW, so there is no need to it.

 

the average MMO gamer doesn't know about themepark and sandbox. It's only a haldful of us here who have been playing since the MUD days pre UO and M59.

  zymurgeist

Elite Member

Joined: 12/24/04
Posts: 5199

7/21/11 7:01:57 AM#80

 



Originally posted by Kalfer
I was using his own logic against him. It's perfectly valid in the face of the absurdity he puts on display. And NO, a open beta is not is not to market the game.
 
That's a demo. Realize the difference please, and start reading up on marketing, and what it means to be alpha/beta.

 

MMO developers insist on calling it an open beta as a marketing ploy. So often an open beta is a pre-release demo and hype generator. This happens even with single player games sometimes. It's pretty hard to realize the difference when for all practical purposes there isn't any.

"Strong and bitter words indicate a weak cause" ~Victor Hugo

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