Originally posted by jpnz

 

The highlighted red text is false actually.

During WoW's WotLK era, more than half the playerbase did at least one raid.

 

MMO's are a bit unique in the fact that you spend 50 hours in an MMO for a month and no one bats an eye.

Compared to single player, that's an awful lot of game-time. I finished Mass Effect2 4 times and stopped on my 5th playthrough. I have about 70 hours on that.

People will complain the content is too little but compared to game time of other single player titiles, they are not.

It is not false. Doing ONE raid and raiding is totally diffrent things. I googled but I cannot find it now but I remember WoW developer stating that around 20% of subscribers actively raid. That corellate with my experience in various themepark games, I usually was in very casual guilds , but at same time I usually was in raiding alliances consisted from ppl from various guilds.

Most people that I knew and played with didnt raid at all, or even if they joined a raid (when my alliance needed 1-2 more ppl) almsot all of them havent expressed interest to raid more than very casually (like 1 a month). Most ppl don't have time or don't want to book their time 2-3 times a week for whole evenings. Not to mention to spent time to grind for consumeables ,follow raid guild/alliance rules ,etc.

Besides WotLK was long time ago, I am under an impression that traditional tiered raiding , got old since then.

Comparing single players game to mmorpg is bit missed imho. Publisher of SP don't have to keep you interested after you buy game , of course there are DLC's but that is not source of main income , in SP game.

I think that mmorpg's if they want to sustain subscribers population they HAVE to provide VARIOUS activities. Not just raids, instances and daily grind quests.

There are more ppl playing mmorpg's now than 5 or 10 years ago. Playerbase is diffrent as well.

So imho developers should cater not only for raiders who just want to level cap as soon as possible and start raiding , but also to diffrent players. Those who enjoy questing , those who like exploring , those who like crafting , those who like socializing , those who like to pvp. 

Originally posted by chelan

Originally posted by MumboJumbo

Faster development is a big contention as the OP states: IE If you have a deadline, you can spend tons of time on delivering it be it a student dissertation, a month end or an MMO release date... but it's never going to be perfect if the deadline exists to limit how much effort is worth putting in.

So, with that in mind just look at a couple of engines and how they are marketed to prospective interested parties:

Hero Engine:

Managers

• Faster Time-to-Market – In a competitive market where speed is critical, don’t waste time reinventing the core technology. With HeroEngine your team is more productive. Build faster and more accurately.
• Reduce Risk – Take technology risk off the table. Choose a technology that is working for some of the biggest name companies in the business!
• Lower Cost – Licensing HeroEngine is not only faster than building it yourself, it costs less too! Flexible licensing plans exist to fit almost any project.

 

 

Unity Engine:

 

With Unity 3, we've put tremendous effort on world building tools – so you can assemble and tweak your levels at the speed of thought.

Edit. Test. Play. With Unity, testing your latest idea is never more than a click away. This lets you drill down to find the fun, then polish it until it's perfect.

Target platform can be switched instantly, so you can develop from a single source for mobiles, web, PC/Mac, and consoles.

These all highlight concerns that devs want to optimize:

1. Faster dev time, reduce risk and cost also

2. Tools for actually iterating the game play and testing more rapidly all the systems that emerge together & multiplatform spreading the risk etc.

Definitely the case that dev time is a major part of the process of MMO but also a challenge to work solutions into shortening. That said, there are good reasons why eg ArenaNet or CCP produce their own MMO Engines.

yes, perhaps, but do you have any idea as to what it would take to recode all the necessary parts to make each game look completely different, to play completely different from every other Unity game made...to add *anything* innovative you'd have to rewrite the engine entirely. this is not a linux kernel we're talking about here (and even building off that is tremendous work). Unity, Hero, etc., are fully formed engines. that means they come with inherent limits, limits the OP and others rightly point out begin to happen when a game is started 6 years ago.  go take a look at a more open engine (not just open source, but open ended for content and coding) like Ogre and then come back and tell me how you are going to use it to build a game in the next 6months.

have you considered for instance, on the artistic end, just what it takes to animate a single motion? and *then* you have to code it so that animation works everytime on every single character of that type. gahd forbid they change armor or clothing and the animation that has to go into that. then all of that, how a cape billows about you as your toon runs into a fight, or how that same cape reacts to the fall from being knocked back on the ground, then build a database that holds all those things on your machine as reference points and then ask that database to actually locate you and a thousand others on an x.y.z axis that's different for every person fighting that same mob that knocked you back, or the thousand other mobs knocking others back. --and that's just the movement of a cape--

now do that with every single other thing each and every other character in a game does. this is not NWN mod editor. this is creating from scratch. and it is often easier to build off an engine you have created because you know what the game is going to do or not do.

i spent a bit of time doing research into game development, as i was also curious as to the length of time it took companies and just how the process moves. perhaps there are certain aspects you could speed up, but there are many you cannont. ie., you don't want slapped on code to an already existing engine w/o real development time.

aside from the specific examples above, think of the movement from concept, to financing, to creating each and every detail of that concept just in a form that can be understood and used by coders, writers, and artists alike, to the actual beginning of coding the game to work on just one machine, to the server code, the database code, and the list goes on, not including the *constant* testing and retesting just inside the company's division working on that game.

while i certainly agree there may be areas that could stand a reexamination i really feel that the OP and some others have not gotten a real grasp on what it actually takes to build a game, even using an already existing engine.

Well, I'm still fairly new to coding but enjoying the ride so far and all the more appreciating the development process to be more and more complicated as I learn more about it, in fact. Interesting points above, but as stated, these engines are like any other part of the economy, getting different companies to specialize in different niches to speed up delivery and efficiency therefore having a competitive advantage through cutting costs leading to, in this case, more competitive implementations of mmos for different types of gameplay.

So yes, I still still think MMOs are in the process of long development, exacerbatingly so compared to any other game development (hence I'd doubt for the immediate future I'll ever attempt an mmo personally until eg Unity and such like can help me along ; ) ) But that said, even if you take these engines the concept is possible to produce a good mmo out of them one way or another and that is what reducing risk and dev time will tend towards, I'd say.

Ok, your argument is good that these engines limits are indeed a problem for looking for something different but the trend is "ENABLING" I'd say in the mmo industry towards better times ahead if the huge cost and develoment can be snipped downwards? That is the massive problem with MMO development atm, that high risk does not lend to innovation and subsequent lack of excitement from the forum users here, for new MMOs?

Originally posted by MumboJumbo

Originally posted by chelan

Originally posted by MumboJumbo

Faster development is a big contention as the OP states: IE If you have a deadline, you can spend tons of time on delivering it be it a student dissertation, a month end or an MMO release date... but it's never going to be perfect if the deadline exists to limit how much effort is worth putting in.

So, with that in mind just look at a couple of engines and how they are marketed to prospective interested parties:

Hero Engine:

Managers

• Faster Time-to-Market – In a competitive market where speed is critical, don’t waste time reinventing the core technology. With HeroEngine your team is more productive. Build faster and more accurately.
• Reduce Risk – Take technology risk off the table. Choose a technology that is working for some of the biggest name companies in the business!
• Lower Cost – Licensing HeroEngine is not only faster than building it yourself, it costs less too! Flexible licensing plans exist to fit almost any project.

 

 

Unity Engine:

 

With Unity 3, we've put tremendous effort on world building tools – so you can assemble and tweak your levels at the speed of thought.

Edit. Test. Play. With Unity, testing your latest idea is never more than a click away. This lets you drill down to find the fun, then polish it until it's perfect.

Target platform can be switched instantly, so you can develop from a single source for mobiles, web, PC/Mac, and consoles.

These all highlight concerns that devs want to optimize:

1. Faster dev time, reduce risk and cost also

2. Tools for actually iterating the game play and testing more rapidly all the systems that emerge together & multiplatform spreading the risk etc.

Definitely the case that dev time is a major part of the process of MMO but also a challenge to work solutions into shortening. That said, there are good reasons why eg ArenaNet or CCP produce their own MMO Engines.

yes, perhaps, but do you have any idea as to what it would take to recode all the necessary parts to make each game look completely different, to play completely different from every other Unity game made...to add *anything* innovative you'd have to rewrite the engine entirely. this is not a linux kernel we're talking about here (and even building off that is tremendous work). Unity, Hero, etc., are fully formed engines. that means they come with inherent limits, limits the OP and others rightly point out begin to happen when a game is started 6 years ago.  go take a look at a more open engine (not just open source, but open ended for content and coding) like Ogre and then come back and tell me how you are going to use it to build a game in the next 6months.

have you considered for instance, on the artistic end, just what it takes to animate a single motion? and *then* you have to code it so that animation works everytime on every single character of that type. gahd forbid they change armor or clothing and the animation that has to go into that. then all of that, how a cape billows about you as your toon runs into a fight, or how that same cape reacts to the fall from being knocked back on the ground, then build a database that holds all those things on your machine as reference points and then ask that database to actually locate you and a thousand others on an x.y.z axis that's different for every person fighting that same mob that knocked you back, or the thousand other mobs knocking others back. --and that's just the movement of a cape--

now do that with every single other thing each and every other character in a game does. this is not NWN mod editor. this is creating from scratch. and it is often easier to build off an engine you have created because you know what the game is going to do or not do.

i spent a bit of time doing research into game development, as i was also curious as to the length of time it took companies and just how the process moves. perhaps there are certain aspects you could speed up, but there are many you cannont. ie., you don't want slapped on code to an already existing engine w/o real development time.

aside from the specific examples above, think of the movement from concept, to financing, to creating each and every detail of that concept just in a form that can be understood and used by coders, writers, and artists alike, to the actual beginning of coding the game to work on just one machine, to the server code, the database code, and the list goes on, not including the *constant* testing and retesting just inside the company's division working on that game.

while i certainly agree there may be areas that could stand a reexamination i really feel that the OP and some others have not gotten a real grasp on what it actually takes to build a game, even using an already existing engine.

Well, I'm still fairly new to coding but enjoying the ride so far and all the more appreciating the development process to be more and more complicated as I learn more about it, in fact. Interesting points above, but as stated, these engines are like any other part of the economy, getting different companies to specialize in different niches to speed up delivery and efficiency therefore having a competitive advantage through cutting costs leading to, in this case, more competitive implementations of mmos for different types of gameplay.

So yes, I still still think MMOs are in the process of long development, exacerbatingly so compared to any other game development (hence I'd doubt for the immediate future I'll ever attempt an mmo personally until eg Unity and such like can help me along ; ) ) But that said, even if you take these engines the concept is possible to produce a good mmo out of them one way or another and that is what reducing risk and dev time will tend towards, I'd say.

Ok, your argument is good that these engines limits are indeed a problem for looking for something different but the trend is "ENABLING" I'd say in the mmo industry towards better times ahead if the huge cost and develoment can be snipped downwards? That is the massive problem with MMO development atm, that high risk does not lend to innovation and subsequent lack of excitement from the forum users here, for new MMOs?

i agree with your last paragraph there wholeheartedly. i do think there is more than likely 'fat' that can be trimmed on the development time of things. but where exactly in that process, i'm just not educated enough to know.

one thing is for sure, the last wave of triple A MMOs with short and rushed out development cycles nearly killed the MMO genre, almost burying it under a 10km high pile of horse shit.

Im totally willing to give long development cycles a chance, the alternative has proven to be beyond ridiculous...

---

Originally posted by Lobotomist

It came to such extreme situations that MMOs are closed same month they are released.
Just to name a few...

---

Do you care to actually name them?

I've often wondered if MMOs would be much more successful if they cut way back on graphics, voice-overs, etc, to focus more on gameplay - not just for gameplay's sake, but in so doing, they wouldn't be so bogged down, unable to change due to the vast amount of resources used to just get where they are.  They could be much more portable, flexible, adaptive.  Dynamic.

With the much lower overhead of a shorter development cycle, and fewer employees needed, it would be a lot easier to turn a profit, too.

Look at the success of browser games like Runescape, or Facebook games like Farmville.  How important is it really, to stay at the cutting edge, graphics-wise?  I think its important for some genres, but MMOs just sacrifice way too much for it.

Originally posted by Sagasaint

one thing is for sure, the last wave of triple A MMOs with short and rushed out development cycles nearly killed the MMO genre, almost burying it under a 10km high pile of horse shit.

Im totally willing to give long development cycles a chance, the alternative has proven to be beyond ridiculous...

 

There's a few problems with Long Development Time. They remind me of eg:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five-year_plan

eg China: "These tasks were not successfully carried out during this time."

eg Soviet Union: "Several five-year plans did not take up the full period of time assigned to them: some were successfully completed earlier than expected, while others failed and were abandoned. Altogether, there were thirteen five-year plans."

& http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Deal#Prolonged.2Fworsened_the_Depression

To cut to the chase: Large/longer development of mmos --> More things can go wrong, already high spending (eg >$30m etc) beyond budget, content/planning can be harder to control eg:

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/35879/Opinion_On_Time_and_On_Budget.php

eg WAR: Cut several capital cities content, 2 classes and other features that never made it in.

eg Climax orinally developing the IP: The Game Archaeologist and the What Ifs: Climax's Warhammer Online

We want to assure fans that we won't be rushed in this, and we won't release a game that does not meet all the strict quality criteria we place upon ourselves and placed upon us by the guys at Games Workshop."

 

It quickly became obvious that Climax bit off more than it could program, and planned features were scaled back or cut altogether.

By June of 2004, Games Workshop took an inventory of the project, which they estimated would take $30 million to finish and launch (in comparison, Star Wars Galaxies took $30 million to fully develop and World of Warcraft $60 million). The company deemed it to be too expensive and stopped funding the project. This didn't fully kill Warhammer Online, however, as Climax continued to fund the project out of their own pockets and struggled to find a publishing partner.

Unfortunately for them it didn't happen, and Climax's Warhammer project was officially canceled for good by the end of the year. Climax's CEO, Karl Jeffery, expressed regret about the decision: "It was a deeply sad thing for us to have to do after so much hard work and commitment from the entire team."

Robin Dews, Climax's general manager, posted this good-bye on the now-defunct Warhammer Online website:

"It is with a great deal of sadness that I inform the community that we have decided to discontinue the development of Warhammer Online and will be closing down this website with immediate effect. This has been a difficult and painful decision but it was taken following a full review of the progress of the game, costs to date and future costs of the project. As a result both Games Workshop and Climax Development Limited, the computer games developer, have agreed to terminate the development project. I would like to say a personal thanks to all of the people who have followed our development over the last few years, your constant support and enthusiasm has meant a great deal to us."

About five months later, Mythic Entertainment snapped up the license. Instead of building off of Climax's efforts, the team decided to start over on the entire project, creating their own vision of the Warhammer world. This game would ultimately become Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning, and released in 2008

Not to say MMOs must be rushed or that they do not need longer dev time but that it's a high risk venture ->

OP raises a good point, many of today's up and coming MMORPG's were conceptually developed 4-6 years ago, and it's taken this long to bring them to market.

But the customer base has rapdily evolved in many ways, as pointed out by the many new social networking tools in the OP, and perhaps in one way its changed is its taste for MMO's.

What if the market actually is totally burned out on the standard theme park model. Sure, they'll play it, but won't stay with it for any length of time.

That would explain the rather lukewarm reception given even well polished titles such as Rift, we're just tired of more of the same and can't play yet another game designed like this for a long period of time.

Now, it's possible to change/modify the focus of an MMO after it's underway, however Tabula Rasa is a good example of the risk a team takes in attempting to do so.

So there probably is a real need for the industry to figure out a way to get an MMO done in 3 years or less from concept to release, without taking the quality/feature shortcuts that we saw in Crytpic's titles STO and CO.

Perhaps its not physically possible to do so, but perhaps its just a matter of someone needing to come up with some out of the box approaches.

We're facing the same issue where I work.  Right now we're locked into regular, but long (36 weeks) development cycles and we're working on ideas to reduce this so we can deliver more features without a corresponding drop in quality.  (its a challenge for sure)

And what we build is nothing close to the complexity of a MMORPG.

Originally posted by Kyleran

So there probably is a real need for the industry to figure out a way to get an MMO done in 3 years or less from concept to release, without taking the quality/feature shortcuts that we saw in Crytpic's titles STO and CO.

I think that sums it up, someone needs to rethink the process and somehow shorten the cycle. Unfortunately I think the initial attempt at this will just to be releasing games in even more unfinished states and then developing side-by-side with players actively paying for and playing the game... but that sounds like a huge risk.

when i first read this i got kind of mad at the OP TBH... but then i read answers and thought about it again and 6 years is kinda long... not only do graphics,quality,sound,even mechanics change but so do peoples minds... even developers... but i will say it goes to show that taking time on a game pays off (EQ)... no other game ive played comes close to the immersion of EQ's world,lore, or customization... as people have said before consumers type of gaming changes... people hated waiting for boats or dieing and corpse running, zoning, etc. etc. that EQ had to offer after WoW came out and took away all that... made it easier for gamers to get right back into the action...  EQ made you think up a game plan to taking down a mob, or group up to increase your chances of success... not saying WoW doesnt do that but its alot easier.... EQ didnt care about how hard its game was for a long time... but as my favorite goblin quote from WoW goes "time is money friend"... all gaming companies follow this to a T now... its sad... as long as they can make their quick buck they are happy... so they will keep releasing sub par games... we as gamers need to put a stop to this... tell them to release games where we take on a challenge... i dont like killing non-stop to max level to enjoy the game... give us a huge world to explore, random quest givers without the "!" over head... give us fun spells/skills that dont do anything but make us laugh... make us group more and give us Incentive to do so... give us low-level/ mid-level raids that max level character cant participate in (Lady Vox from EQ)... give us more than two factions also... idc if i have to zone for 30-60 secs. to get to another area... make my world huge and make me feel like i am in a different world... please USE your time wisely and make a great game... sorry for going on and on fellow gamers :)

Change in game 2004 DX9-2011 ABOUT 99% still DX9 so not much have changed in all these years in gaming:P

Example 2005 DX9 mmo World of warcraft released playable on pc's from early as 2002 this still posible in 2011.

Swtor DX9 will almost be playable on 2002 pc and looks about same as WoW.

Standstill in gaming industry for nearly 8 years:(

51% still on the rediculous OS version XP Microsoft did something teribly wrong along the timeline:P

PC can handle Full HD 25xx resolution super realistic graphics but gaming industry standstill at ancient 2004 DX9 graphics.

Originally posted by sungodra

I kind of agree here. 6 years to develope a single game is kind of ridiculous.. I hope it is good.

 

We've seen what happens when Dev time is chopped to make the venture capital happy (AoC or WAR, anyone?)

Given the big-name failures of recent times, the only sensible course of action is to keep working on it until it's done.

Gamers are expecting the WoW-Killer.  Expectations that high are impossible to live up to, but at least they have enough integrity to give it a real effort, and not half-ass it.

Originally posted by Calerxes
Quick - Cheap - Quality - Pick two.

That's the problem all companies have to decide on its that simple.

Thing is, there are different ways to make it quicker and cheaper.  There are all different ways to cut corners, sacrificing quality in very different ways.

For example, just look at WoW.  Its low-poly, low texture size graphics weren't just about making it accessible to more players, but also made it a lot easier for Blizzard to add content and make sure it was polished.  By aiming lower in that respect, they were able to put out what most would consider a higher quality product overall.  More quickly, and more cheaply.

They chose not to be particularly innovative, that's besides the point, but for what it is, I bet they had plenty of development time/money to make sure it was solid, due saving huge amounts by cutting corners in terms of graphics.  

It's funny how few devs copy them in this respect.  Games like SWTOR, people calling a WoW clone already, but they went in the completely opposite direction, making an immensely bloated product that's insanely expensive to polish and add content to.

Originally posted by Calerxes
Quick - Cheap - Quality - Pick two.

That's the problem all companies have to decide on its that simple.

Great observation.

Another factor I see in this is obsolescence.  With long development times it is very difficult to produce an MMO that isn't obsolete by the time it gets released.  The graphics bar keeps raising so quickly that a 5 year development schedule will produce a game substandard to what is current.

Originally posted by Kyleran

So there probably is a real need for the industry to figure out a way to get an MMO done in 3 years or less from concept to release, without taking the quality/feature shortcuts that we saw in Crytpic's titles STO and CO.

Not gonna happen anytime soon, at least with the current technology we have.

Most console games have a two year development cycle, and that's acutally cutting it short. An MMO by design NEEDS a longer development time just because of the sheer scope involved. Developing an MMO in under three years would be like trying to condense the entire Dark Tower series into one film. You could do it, but you'd have to cut out so many things that it would be pointless.

Originally posted by Vhaln

For example, just look at WoW.  Its low-poly, low texture size graphics weren't just about making it accessible to more players, but also made it a lot easier for Blizzard to add content and make sure it was polished.  By aiming lower in that respect, they were able to put out what most would consider a higher quality product overall.  

 

They chose not to be particularly innovative, that's besides the point, but for what it is, I bet they had plenty of development time/money to make sure it was solid, due saving huge amounts by cutting corners in terms of graphics.  

 

What people tend to forget is that World of Warcraft engine took alot from Warcraft III engine. Maybe some younger players don't know but Warcraft III was VERY succesful rts. Hugely popular and well received.

World of Warcraft used parts of graphic engine from Warcraft III , also whole style graphic style was very similar. Not to mention WoW initial popularity was also possible because of W3 to some degree.

WoW was made on very popular IP, released shortly after huge success of game on the same IP, polished as most of Blizzard products and providing more streamlined experience than previous MMO's. Not to mention that competition was smller than now in MMO genre.

Imo it is almost impossible to repeat that big of a success atm. Especially by copying 7 year old ideas.

Originally posted by Sulaa

Originally posted by Vhaln

For example, just look at WoW.  Its low-poly, low texture size graphics weren't just about making it accessible to more players, but also made it a lot easier for Blizzard to add content and make sure it was polished.  By aiming lower in that respect, they were able to put out what most would consider a higher quality product overall.  

 

They chose not to be particularly innovative, that's besides the point, but for what it is, I bet they had plenty of development time/money to make sure it was solid, due saving huge amounts by cutting corners in terms of graphics.  

 

What people tend to forget is that World of Warcraft engine took alot from Warcraft III engine. Maybe some younger players don't know but Warcraft III was VERY succesful rts. Hugely popular and well received.

World of Warcraft used parts of graphic engine from Warcraft III , also whole style graphic style was very similar. Not to mention WoW initial popularity was also possible because of W3 to some degree.

WoW was made on very popular IP, released shortly after huge success of game on the same IP, polished as most of Blizzard products and providing more streamlined experience than previous MMO's. Not to mention that competition was smller than now in MMO genre.

Imo it is almost impossible to repeat that big of a success atm. Especially by copying 7 year old ideas.

Are you suggesting that WoW was able reuse assets from this?  As for copying its success, I'm not talking about that.  I'm just refering to their development approach, and why it resulted in a basic quality product.  Why it became so successful is a whole other issue.  The quality/cost/speed probably helped, but I know there's a lot more to it than that, and I'd be the last one to suggest anyone should be aiming for similar success.

I think EVE makes another good example.  It's so graphically lacking, people compare it to playing a spread sheet.  Instead of low quality graphics, they just stayed very focused on making it all about the ships flying through space.  No need to render the inside of space stations, planetary surfaces, or even people.  Not the most popular approach, and yet its been a lot easier for CCP to polish it, and keep building on it - which has probably had something to do with their success as well.

Am I saying "copy EVE" now?  No, I'm just saying there are different ways to save time and money than putting out an unfinished mess of a product.

I bet if we had much better mmos noone would care how long it took to make.  Sadly not many people are successful at making mmos.

Originally posted by SaintViktor

I bet if we had much better mmos noone would care how long it took to make.  Sadly not many people are successful at making mmos.

I would say the two are related. Let's face it: the companies making "MMOs" these days (and I use the term loosely) are absolutely terrible at it, leading to both long development times and terrible gameplay and/or design choices.