Originally posted by JYCowboy

Originally posted by TUX426

Originally posted by Ravik

I think Lucas Arts had a say in the shutdown and SOE is going with it.

I think it's funny that people keep claiming this when Smedley has come flat out and said HE (SoE) didn't even TRY to renew the license.

''Could we have renegotiated? Maybe, but I don't think that would be the right thing for the company."

No rumor - from John Smedley himself.

 I don't disagree with you TUX, as I consider you a more informed player having been a senator for the game.  I think, however, that there was a break even point with SWG.  With the player base now down to the pop levels some have estimated, it wouldn't take much to force the closure.  Think about it.  LA gets very little love with SWG but still takes in income as does SOE.  With TOR's pending launch announcement coming coupled with EA's known history of conquoring competitors, all LA had to do was go up on the license fee a few thousand.  Thus, John ends up taking the rap for shutting the game down because it wasn't cost effective at that point.  SOE does not close games if they can help it.  They beat the last cent out of devoted hardcore players for as long as they can.  Why is Vangard still up and semi-supported?  I am not saying SOE or Smed are blameless with SWG.  Too much history documented against SOE for that.  I have seen just way too many signs of LA's hand in it.  They are just much better at setting "scapegoats".  Just watch EA/BioWare in the next year.

From what I understand, the license fee is per ACCOUNT, not a flat fee.

I also think there's truth to both arguments...my assumption is, Lucas Arts sent over the new contract with the standard 3-5-yr licensing agreement, Smed decided it simply wasn't worth a long term commitment and let the deadline lapse or informed LA that he wouldn't sign another multi-year deal. LA probably said "OK" and hung up the phone. End of story, both companies can blame the other.

Point is, I do not think LA OR SOE cared if SWG stayed or went. The base was so small it wasn't of any concern. SOE has more pressing needs atm (DCUO, PS2 and EQ3) and supporting SWG took more staff and effort than I think they wanted to throw at it. I believe Smed when he says it was "mutual" (as in neither felt inclined to renew the license) and I also believe that he didn't pursue a shorter term licensing agreement because SWTOR is looming over his head.

Originally posted by Daffid011

Vanguard is still running, because SOE owns the IP.  They leave the servers running and never spend another minute of development time on it and not have to answer to a 3rd party.

You are right that SOE will run a game until the very last cent can be squeezed out of it, but SOE doesn't own the Star Wars IP or the Matrix IP and as such had to close them down.  I don't think Warner Brothers or Lucas Arts see their IPs so cheaply as SOE does and neither really wants to watch SOE squeeze a few dollars out of a dead game.

 

 Yep, and Vanguard has a small hardcore base that they keep charging and tempting with supposed updates pending.  Truth we all know is they saw it as a direct competitor to EQ2.  So which is going to get the annual expansion?  At this years Fan Faire, there was NO Vanguard presence.

The trouble with MxO was two fold.  You are correct about forced closing as they didn't own the IP.  Subs had dropped to very low levels.  Last Fan Faire to host it had fans watching the film in leu haveing update info, LOL.  Something like under a 100 showed.  I really felt bad for them.  That was before the announced closing (wasn't there something about a Dick move?).  The second reason is the IP itself.  MxO released prior to the sequels movies but had much input from the creators during development.  Both films were not well recieved in the public eye.  Fans were devoted but it just lost interest as a whole.  It also suffered like SWG in that it was released in the wake of the WOW effect.  That sucked subs right out of SOE's more poorly launched games into WOW. IMHO.

This is why I will never trust SOE.

Those that are faithful and stick to a game, immersing and getting attatched to chars and friends will loose it suddenly and like that because SOE do not care about you.

I will never invest a single coin in a SOE game because of this. Maybe others will do the same, but so far I havent seen it in any MMORPG I have played besides Sony games.

Offcourse the game should have been f2p..

Originally posted by blueshadow

This is why I will never trust SOE.

Those that are faithful and stick to a game, immersing and getting attatched to chars and friends will loose it suddenly and like that because SOE do not care about you.

I will never invest a single coin in a SOE game because of this. Maybe others will do the same, but so far I havent seen it in any MMORPG I have played besides Sony games.

Offcourse the game should have been f2p..

Maybe I've missed something, but what game other than Matrix online did SOE shut down? From everything I can tell had Lucas Arts allowed SOE to renew the liscense they would have kept SWG open, I don't think it would have seen a lot of love and development, but it wasn't losing them money either. 

They don't likley have the server infrastructer still set up for that many people.

Everyone loggin in the final day because it was free would bring the whole thing down and ruin it for those that are currently playing and have been paying monthly for a long time now.  Its not the game we all played - but there are people playing it that like it.  They should get  to see it go down.  We already did.

I think it's funny how people think SWTOR will offer them the same type of sustain that SWG did.

This is my guess as to what will happen:

SWTOR launches. You are so excited. The game is amazing. You play your character through the entire story. You might even play another character through the entire story. However, you start to look at your character and think, "what now? battlegrounds for another 3 hours?" "Do I raid for the next 3 hours?" Nah...   I'll go hang out at my shop...  oh wait. Hmm. I'll go hang out at the guild house.... oh wait... Hmm. I'll go hang out in the cantina...   oh wait...   I'll go decorate my house.... oh wait.

OH WAIT... this game was made for WoW fan$$$

Originally posted by Leoghan

Originally posted by blueshadow

This is why I will never trust SOE.

Those that are faithful and stick to a game, immersing and getting attatched to chars and friends will loose it suddenly and like that because SOE do not care about you.

I will never invest a single coin in a SOE game because of this. Maybe others will do the same, but so far I havent seen it in any MMORPG I have played besides Sony games.

Offcourse the game should have been f2p..

Maybe I've missed something, but what game other than Matrix online did SOE shut down? From everything I can tell had Lucas Arts allowed SOE to renew the liscense they would have kept SWG open, I don't think it would have seen a lot of love and development, but it wasn't losing them money either. 

It wasn't losing money yet. But with TOR coming out, the anticipated losses were probably too much to keep projections in the black.

If it weren't for SOE the Matrix would have shut down long before it did and Vanguard wouldn't have made it out of development.  Both of the original developer/operators of those games had run out of operating funds.  I understand why people have a beef with them over SWG, but blaming SOE for the fate of The Matrix or Vanguard is insane.   You should be thanking them that those games operated as long as they did (still operating in Vanguard's case).

I for one am glad they are putting this game out of its misery. Left after CU and never looked back. My pre-CU Jedi and my 4 accounts

Originally posted by Aluvius

If it weren't for SOE the Matrix would have shut down long before it did and Vanguard wouldn't have made it out of development.  Both of the original developer/operators of those games had run out of operating funds.  I understand why people have a beef with them over SWG, but blaming SOE for the fate of The Matrix or Vanguard is insane.   You should be thanking them that those games operated as long as they did (still operating in Vanguard's case).

SOE only got involved with The Matrix Online so they could get the DC license.  Beyond that they let the Matrix rot on life support.  Can't really say they are doing a bang up job with the DC license either.

Vanguard would have seen release, but the end result would have been the same.  Terrible release, Sigil files for bankruptcy, someone scoops up the game for loose change.   SOE didn't "save" Vanguard from anything.

I really don't see any of that as being worthy of thanks or congratulations. 

Originally posted by Daffid011

Originally posted by Aluvius

If it weren't for SOE the Matrix would have shut down long before it did and Vanguard wouldn't have made it out of development.  Both of the original developer/operators of those games had run out of operating funds.  I understand why people have a beef with them over SWG, but blaming SOE for the fate of The Matrix or Vanguard is insane.   You should be thanking them that those games operated as long as they did (still operating in Vanguard's case).

SOE only got involved with The Matrix Online so they could get the DC license.  Beyond that they let the Matrix rot on life support.  Can't really say they are doing a bang up job with the DC license either.

Vanguard would have seen release, but the end result would have been the same.  Terrible release, Sigil files for bankruptcy, someone scoops up the game for loose change.   SOE didn't "save" Vanguard from anything.

 

I really don't see any of that as being worthy of thanks or congratulations. 

 

 If its not "worthy of congratulations" then why is it worthy of scorn?  TMO was a disaster, there's no way it stayed operating unless SOE bought it no matter their reasons.  No other publisher was willing to even touch it.  And if the end result would have been the same for Vanguard no matter what then again why hate SOE?   Sony wasn't responsible for either crappy game and kept them operating well past the point when many other mmo's had folded. 

Its illogical ... then again its the mmorpg.com forums, so rage on I guess.

I'm not seeing why Sony is being hated on by the community.

I don't love Sony either but you have to give them credit that they stick with MMOs that are way past their financial viability.

At least SoE announced the closing pretty far in advance, despite the fact that doing so will cost them revenue.  They could have waited until mid october to announce, say they still gave people notice, but milk an extra couple of month in TCG sales (I wonder if LA gets a cut in those sales?  I would imagine they have to since its technically a seperate product from SWG)

Originally posted by kwai

Most of you do know that you can chargeback alot of the money you have put into SWG right ? , because you bought and paid for a service that can only be used online, when they take away that service, you have lost alot of time and money on something that is not there anymore, just as what happened with the first go around with All Points Bulletin from real time worlds, when that shut down, i chargedback my fee + sub for the game.

The wonders if modern banking is on your side in some instances, this is one of them, im already in a class act lawsuit against sony for losing my personal and creditcard information which i havent even been compensated for yet.

So yea, chargeback away while you can.

This is pretty scary if you can do this.  Its fraud.  You pay to access the servers for that time frame.  And you got what you paid for.  Anyone that does this is actually less ethical than SoE has been.

Originally posted by Aluvius

 If its not "worthy of congratulations" then why is it worthy of scorn?  TMO was a disaster, there's no way it stayed operating unless SOE bought it no matter their reasons.  No other publisher was willing to even touch it.  And if the end result would have been the same for Vanguard no matter what then again why hate SOE?   Sony wasn't responsible for either crappy game and kept them operating well past the point when many other mmo's had folded. 

Its illogical ... then again its the mmorpg.com forums, so rage on I guess.

It isn't worthy of congratulations, because SOE did a horrible job with both games.  It is worthy of "scorn" as you put it, because SOE didn't live up to their promises.  Just because SOE was able to continue the failure of both games doesn't mean people should applaud them, unless someones standards are so low that paying industry premium subscription fees for a game that has zero developers and updates for periods of time that can be measured in years can be viewed as good. 

Buying a failed game with no intention of at least trying to make a recovery effort isn't praise worthy.  One of the first things SOE did to the Matrix was cease the storytelling/live event features that was a corner stone of the game.  Their first action actually made the game worse.

As for Vanguard, do you think SOE lived up to their promises to players?  link   SOE had two chances to turn vanguard around.  Once when they were funding the game as the publisher and the second when they purchased the game and promised the same level of support that their other games receive all the way up to expansion packs.  I guess what SOE meant was the same level of support games like EQMax, EQOA, Planetside, Matrix get and not the level of support of EQ/EQ2.

So no I don't think people need to stop complaining and settle to be happy with sustained failure.  Praise is earned from doing something, not sitting back and letting the status quo continue.

That goes for the subject of the thread also.  That is excatly why SWG is in the situation it is currently in.  There just are not enough people left willing to pay premium industry rates, receive so little in return and feel happy about it. 

Originally posted by Daffid011

Originally posted by Aluvius

 If its not "worthy of congratulations" then why is it worthy of scorn?  TMO was a disaster, there's no way it stayed operating unless SOE bought it no matter their reasons.  No other publisher was willing to even touch it.  And if the end result would have been the same for Vanguard no matter what then again why hate SOE?   Sony wasn't responsible for either crappy game and kept them operating well past the point when many other mmo's had folded. 

Its illogical ... then again its the mmorpg.com forums, so rage on I guess.

It isn't worthy of congratulations, because SOE did a horrible job with both games.  It is worthy of "scorn" as you put it, because SOE didn't live up to their promises.  Just because SOE was able to continue the failure of both games doesn't mean people should applaud them, unless someones standards are so low that paying industry premium subscription fees for a game that has zero developers and updates for periods of time that can be measured in years can be viewed as good. 

Buying a failed game with no intention of at least trying to make a recovery effort isn't praise worthy.  One of the first things SOE did to the Matrix was cease the storytelling/live event features that was a corner stone of the game.  Their first action actually made the game worse.

As for Vanguard, do you think SOE lived up to their promises to players?  link   SOE had two chances to turn vanguard around.  Once when they were funding the game as the publisher and the second when they purchased the game and promised the same level of support that their other games receive all the way up to expansion packs.  I guess what SOE meant was the same level of support games like EQMax, EQOA, Planetside, Matrix get and not the level of support of EQ/EQ2.

 

So no I don't think people need to stop complaining and settle to be happy with sustained failure.  Praise is earned from doing something, not sitting back and letting the status quo continue.

That goes for the subject of the thread also.  That is excatly why SWG is in the situation it is currently in.  There just are not enough people left willing to pay premium industry rates, receive so little in return and feel happy about it. 

 I want to point something out.  Yes, SWG had lost many many players but it had a core dedicated player base.  Starsider was very active prior to the closing annoucement.  No it wasn't Pre-NGE levels but it was a steady income to LA & SOE with the minimal support the game got.  It didn't generate positive press for the brand but had reached a point that didn't create negative press for the few that discovered it.  In other words, it made enough to keep the servers running.  I believe Lucas Arts intended to keep SWG running while TOR launched as they know there would be folks that wouldn't go for the new play style.

IMHO, I think EA approached LA and said kill SWG.  We what its core players.  EA is known for its hate of direct compition.  Based on the LA/SOE contract, all LA had to do was go up on the Licenes a few thousand each. making SWG then cost prohibitive.  The reasoning for both companies: "Look, TOR is coming out very soon and will drop SWG sub below operation cost. Lets just end it."  This allowed Smedley to state it was a "mutal" decision.

SOE dosen't close game as long as one person still logs in.  They tend to playcate to there core dedicated players and think they are fine.  In truth, today, they are not doing well.  With DCUO's failure, so went the Agancy.  They realized a niche market like that just wasn't going to do well on multi platform.  Since DCUO is more stable (in subs) on the PS3, they will probably shift furture invesments that way. ...just my opionion.

As for Vanguard, do you think SOE lived up to their promises to players?  link   SOE had two chances to turn vanguard around.  Once when they were funding the game as the publisher and the second when they purchased the game and promised the same level of support that their other games receive all the way up to expansion packs.  I guess what SOE meant was the same level of support games like EQMax, EQOA, Planetside, Matrix get and not the level of support of EQ/EQ2.

 

Okay lets look at that link:

Hello Everyone,

Today I would like to formally announce that SOE has acquired the assets of Sigil Games Online, including Vanguard: Saga of Heroes. As a part of this acquisition, we are bringing on approx 50 people from Sigil in order to insure that Vanguard continues to grow. SOE is dedicated to making sure that Vanguard is well taken care of and that we provide the same level of service we do for our other titles. In the near future we will come out with a publishing plan that will largely be driven by the strong player community that Vanguard has already built up. We plan on supporting Vanguard for many years to come, and you can expect many content updates as part of your subscription. Down the line we will of course be coming out with new expansion packs, but right now the focus is on making sure Vanguard is running the way it should be.

We are also officially opening up forums. In the past, our deal with Sigil didn't allow for this, but as with our other games we fill this is an important part of communicating with the playerbase. You can expect a strong presence from our community team as well as the development team members. While we realize that Sigil had said they wouldn't open up general forums, at SOE we fill this hampers our efforts to communicate effectively with the players. We will continue to support the fansites in a big way, and will be contacting many of them directly to discuss what this change means. By no means do we want to lose the strong fansite support by making this change, but we do think it's important to have a forum for players to communicate directly with SOE.

A few other items I wanted to mention

1. Brad McQuaid will be consultant to SOE as a creative advisor for Vanguard. Dave Gilbertson will be the person directly responsible for the day-to-day management of both the Sigil Carlsbad office as well as Vanguard.

2. We do not plan on making any major changes to Vanguard. Any changes are going to come from the team itself. We aren't mandating any big changes to the game. We've learned a thing or two with our experiences with the NGE and don't plan on repeating mistakes from the past and not listening to the players.

3. We do plan on spending a lot of time cleaning up legacy issues with Vanguard and making sure the game's performance improves.

By way of comparison, this team is approx. the same size as the EQ2 team and I feel like that team has done an amazing job improving EQ2 since it's launch. We intend to do the same thing for Vanguard and it is our hope that the players feel like we're doing right by them.

Smed

Sure, the first paragraph promises expansions.  SoE made the huge mistake here of trusting their customers who seemed to say 'if Vanguard was fixed up it would be a hit.  Well guess what?  SoE held true to everything on the list initially.  But the playerbase kept shrinking and shrinking despite the game being playable.  They did add content.  The game went from an unstable, bug ridden mess to something much smoother.  They did not make any major changes to the gameplay.

But the game didnt deliver revenue.  Players left SoE no choice but to shrink the staff.  SoE put the time and money in, running at a loss initially, because the players said 'fix it and wwell come back'.  But they fixed it and the players didnt come back.  This was 100% a case of not SoE letting the players down, but the players letting SoE down.

{mod edit}

Except that your account isn't worth thousands just because you paid a sub fee for years. Allow me to introduce you to a concept called sunk costs:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_costs#Description

What you've already paid in sub fees has no bearing on the current value of your subscription or account. That money is gone forever. It's like buying a movie ticket. Once you've paid for the ticket, the money is gone. It doesn't matter if the movie is terrible or if you missed the show. The money is still gone and the ticket in your hand is just a piece of paper.

Sub fees for an MMO are the same way. Once you pay the fee, that's it. The money is gone, no matter what happens after that.

Originally posted by teakbois
 

Sure, the first paragraph promises expansions.  SoE made the huge mistake here of trusting their customers who seemed to say 'if Vanguard was fixed up it would be a hit.  Well guess what?  SoE held true to everything on the list initially.  But the playerbase kept shrinking and shrinking despite the game being playable.  They did add content.  The game went from an unstable, bug ridden mess to something much smoother.  They did not make any major changes to the gameplay.

 

But the game didnt deliver revenue.  Players left SoE no choice but to shrink the staff.  SoE put the time and money in, running at a loss initially, because the players said 'fix it and wwell come back'.  But they fixed it and the players didnt come back.  This was 100% a case of not SoE letting the players down, but the players letting SoE down.

You dismiss that first paragraph like it isn't meaningful and the SOE somehow did live up to their other promises.  Then you turn around and find some way to blame the players.  Really you are kidding about that right?   Can you point out where players promised SOE they would continue to pay money for a game that doesn't work properly?  For a game that is one of the biggest flops in mmo history?  That is really where you want to point blame?

You know what the very first action SOE took when they purchased Vanguard?  They moved the most talented developers OFF the team and put them on other SOE projects.  Sorry, but SOE didn't put in the effort to fix this game and players were under no obligation to financially support Vanguard until SOE got around to fixing the basic problems... years later.

The game didn't deliver revenue, because the game didn't deliver quality.  That might come as a surprise to you, but that is pretty much how it works. 

Originally posted by JYCowboy

 I want to point something out.  Yes, SWG had lost many many players but it had a core dedicated player base.  Starsider was very active prior to the closing annoucement.  No it wasn't Pre-NGE levels but it was a steady income to LA & SOE with the minimal support the game got.  It didn't generate positive press for the brand but had reached a point that didn't create negative press for the few that discovered it.  In other words, it made enough to keep the servers running.  I believe Lucas Arts intended to keep SWG running while TOR launched as they know there would be folks that wouldn't go for the new play style.

IMHO, I think EA approached LA and said kill SWG.  We what its core players.  EA is known for its hate of direct compition.  Based on the LA/SOE contract, all LA had to do was go up on the Licenes a few thousand each. making SWG then cost prohibitive.  The reasoning for both companies: "Look, TOR is coming out very soon and will drop SWG sub below operation cost. Lets just end it."  This allowed Smedley to state it was a "mutal" decision.

SOE dosen't close game as long as one person still logs in.  They tend to playcate to there core dedicated players and think they are fine.  In truth, today, they are not doing well.  With DCUO's failure, so went the Agancy.  They realized a niche market like that just wasn't going to do well on multi platform.  Since DCUO is more stable (in subs) on the PS3, they will probably shift furture invesments that way. ...just my opionion.

First,  Smedley has already stated that SOE didn't even try to negotiate an extension for the swg license.  If they didn't even try to extend the game, then I don't see why LA would need to try to force the game closed.  SOE seemed pretty set on letting the game come to an end.  I don't really think Lucas Arts was ever worried about SWG being some competition to SWTOR (especially since they would be making 2 sub fees from some people). 

Closing SWG makes sense in a lot of ways.  For one it finally puts an end to the drama that swg has become.  As long as swg was running it would be something that people could actively point to. 

On top of that SOE is in the middle of a serious money problem and cutting huge chunks of staff for the last 3 years.  Return on investment for 1 swg employee is going to be much less than someone working on EQ.  Perhaps a bit overly simplified, but there is truth there and SOE is more than likely heading towards more layoffs as their overall situation doesn't seem to be improving. 

SOE recently sold off one of their facebook games, closed another facebook game, cancelled the agency as well as closing SWG/Matrix.  SOE is no longer a company that doesn't close games. 

Honestly, what does SOE gain from keeping SWG running?