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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Why is Raiding so unpopular to the MMO Community?

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  MMOExposed

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/17/10
Posts: 5979

 
OP  7/09/11 8:30:34 PM#1

I noticed the mmo community for some reason cheered Anet on, when they announced no Raid Dungeons in Guild Wars 2. Well I want to ask. Why is Raiding so unpopular now days to the MMORPG community?

Isnt Raiding, a Massively Multiplayer element of PvE combat?

Would you rather future MMO to be balanced for 1v1 PvE rather than 1v20+?

I want to know why the community doesnt like Raiding any more.

Note:
Wasnt calling out Guild Wars 2, that was simply an example.

  Golelorn

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/23/03
Posts: 1058

7/09/11 8:33:50 PM#2

Unpopular?? I wish.

The most popular games are based of raiding. What are you talking about?

 

Personally, I've never liked raiding. Its repetitive, and unadventurous.

  MMOExposed

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/17/10
Posts: 5979

 
OP  7/09/11 8:39:29 PM#3
Originally posted by Golelorn

Unpopular?? I wish.

The most popular games are based of raiding. What are you talking about?

 

Personally, I've never liked raiding. Its repetitive, and unadventurous.

Well I remember people cheered the fact that Anet doesnt want Raid Dungeons. Lot of people said they hated Raiding. Well why? Raiding fits the Massively Multiplayer element of PvE in MMORPG.  Why is it so Unliked? Rather have 1v1 PvE or something?

  whilan

Keeper of the Archives

Joined: 1/30/07
Posts: 3113

7/09/11 8:39:50 PM#4

Personally myself i don't have a problem with raids as a feature. The biggest issue i can see is how they are done.

1 guy/girl/demon/dragon whatever is attacking the main tank while 30 other people are throwing fireballs/ice or whatever else at it for 30 mins.

The problem is most raids end up this way.

If you change up how the raids are done then it might not be so bad.

Have a group of 20 3 doing a mini-game to keep a sheild down, 2 more trying to coordinate the end game point and the rest trying to hold off the wave upon wave of enemies being sent (of varioud difficulty) until the bomb or whatever is the objective is complete then that might be a bit more interesting.

When people think raids they think of classic style you'd see in similar titles lik EQ or WoW rather then what can be done with raids.

Have multi group encounters, one goes after a reactor, another a prison district all in hopes that it will make the part, overthrowing the fortress and winning the day.

Once they change up how raids are done behind the simple kill the big guy at the end all the time (every now and then is fine, nothing wrong with the mechanic) the word raid might not sound so bad. Some people have just gotten bored with the same style of doing raids.

Plus you also have the added feeling that you have to do it over and over and over and over again to get the better gear. Not sure myself how you fix that one.

Removing the feature all together ala GW2 is an option but i don't like removing options of play just cause people may not like it. Just makes the game seem a bit less complex and less stuff to do.

Personal opinion and views of course.

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  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13314

7/09/11 8:40:04 PM#5

It's not "doesn't like raiding any more".  It's "never did like raiding and still doesn't".

Having to schedule your life around a game is bad.

Needing to farm peculiar gear with no use outside of a particular raid is bad.

Having to do the same raid a bunch of times in a row in order to get up for the next is bad.

Being unable to do the content you want because you're waiting for a raid lockout to end is bad.

Having to worry about losing all of your progress if your guild breaks up is bad.  Especially when game mechanics seem designed with the intent to create guild drama and try to break up your guild.

I'm not against playing a game with others, whether a few others or dozens of others.  But I want to be able to log in when I want to, and then jump in and play.  The reason solo content is popular is not so much that people want to solo, as that people don't want to deal with a bunch of other garbage instead of getting to play the game, and in many games, soloing is the only way to do that.

  Bama1267

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/24/04
Posts: 1880

7/09/11 8:40:30 PM#6

  I think it's still popular by a mile. But I don't prefer it what so ever. I feel it kills community and friendships rather than build them. Bicker about loot, bicker about who goes and who doesn't, bicker about who is performing and who is not, and there is always 1 guy ... most people can't stand but he remains in the guild just the same irritating the shit out of people on raids. And let's face it, there is always a core group of people, you either go along for the ride or GTFO. To top it off, running a raid for 2 straight months or more is rediculous. I've been part of some pretty decent raid guilds but it's always the same song and dance ...

  Castillle

Forum Bunny

Joined: 10/24/10
Posts: 2681

7/09/11 8:41:47 PM#7
Originally posted by MMOExposed

I noticed the mmo community for some reason cheered Anet on, when they announced no Raid Dungeons in Guild Wars 2. Well I want to ask. Why is Raiding so unpopular now days to the MMORPG community?

Isnt Raiding, a Massively Multiplayer element of PvE combat?

Would you rather future MMO to be balanced for 1v1 PvE rather than 1v20+?

I want to know why the community doesnt like Raiding any more.

Note:
Wasnt calling out Guild Wars 2, that was simply an example.

Ok...You seem to be missing the point....

Other games = Solo till end game with the option to occasionally go with small groups. THEN Raiding at end game.

GW2 = Group with the option of large multiplayer battles levelling up and end game with the option of Harder dungeons for 5 people.

 

Now What is raiding? 

Isnt it "large groups in the process of doing PVE content" ?

So why bother when you can do that with the player number scaling dynamic events?  There are your "raids"  By raiding, they meant that there will be no WoW type raiding where you and a large group go into your personal instance.  Instead, it is when you and a large group of people take part in a dynamic event.

 

Then they just made the hard dungeon contents for 5 people or whatever. 

So no there is no typical wow raiding but there IS large scale cooperative pve encounters.  Now why are you whining again?

MMOexposedI find comments such as these very distasteful o.o  "Well why? Raiding fits the Massively Multiplayer element of PvE in MMORPG.  Why is it so Unliked? Rather have 1v1 PvE or something?"

Especially when at the root of it, raiding is still there.  Youre just not raiding dungeons, but partaking in dynamic events that can be "Raided".  Grab 40 of your friends and do them and itll scale accordingly.

 

Edit :

Just because there are no raid dungeons, that doesnt mean there is no "raiding"

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  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 15533

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

7/09/11 8:43:44 PM#8
Originally posted by MMOExposed

I noticed the mmorpg.com community for some reason cheered Anet on, when they announced no Raid Dungeons in Guild Wars 2. Well I want to ask. Why is Raiding so unpopular now days to the MMORPG community?

Isnt Raiding, a Massively Multiplayer element of PvE combat?

Would you rather future MMO to be balanced for 1v1 PvE rather than 1v20+?

I want to know why the community doesnt like Raiding any more.

Note:
Wasnt calling out Guild Wars 2, that was simply an example.

Fixed, as it's obvious the raid mentality is popular in MMO's, just not here on this site. I personally don't do the raiding thing, or dungeons in general at endgame. However there are so many raiding guilds out there I have a hard time seeing it as an unpopular thing. It seems a large chunk of players are in it simply for raiding mechanics, the whole live to raid mentality seems a strong one.

Don't mistake this community as the overall popular view for MMO's, it's basically the opposite, as the anti-mmo ideal is pushed hard here.

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  Meowhead

Tipster

Joined: 1/31/09
Posts: 3728

7/09/11 8:43:59 PM#9
Originally posted by whilan

Removing the feature all together ala GW2 is an option but i don't like removing options of play just cause people may not like it. Just makes the game seem a bit less complex and less stuff to do.

Personal opinion and views of course.

It's not 'removing some content from a set pool of content', it's 'having different types of content instead'

Or do you feel SW:ToR is less complex with less stuff to do because of the lack of swimming and free-form space flight?

I don't.

... but hey, maybe you do.

Every MMO makes choices as to what types of content they want to have.  There's such a huge pool of 'types of MMO content' that it would crush a company to try and include them all (In any usefully polished fashion).  Even Bioware. :/

  negacrowbar

Novice Member

Joined: 5/05/08
Posts: 154

7/09/11 8:44:05 PM#10

If you have never raided in WOW, then you wouldn't understand.

If you have ever raided in WOW, then you wouldn't have asked this question.

I don't know how raiding used to be, but raiding today can be a big waste of time if you are not a dedicated hardcore player with a solid guild with people who have a lot, and I do mean a lot of free time on their hands.

First issue is having the right gear. To do most raids these days (in WOW) you need the proper gear to get in if you dont plan on doing some serious wiping. Sure, you can pick up a PUG, but unless you have a crap load of gold to repair armor every hour and the patience of a priest, this is a futile gesture. Getting the proper gear can take up a whole bunch of your time, especially if you have to to PUG dungeons.

The second is the ANNOYING COMMITMENT TO WAITING. Yes, you have to be committed to doing nothing every night for hours. For example:

Your guild raids at 10 pm every night. It takes til 11 pm for 20 of 25 people to get ready. Now you are short tanks and haelers, with a butt load of hunters. So, everyone starts asking around for LFG through their social networks. By 11:30, you find the last 5 people and by then, 3 others have left. By 12 am, you are finnally ready, then....

YOU WIPE.

Everyone bitches, points fingers, you find out 4 people dont have vent so they get booted, 2 more people leave and the search goes out again.

By 1 am, you give it another try, managed to wipe two more times before you actually clear one wing. Everyone quits for the night, promises to meat tomorrow, but then your guild leader calls you to a side chat in ventrillo and explains what you did wrong. He tells you to go watch you tube, read the forums and understand all the fights coming up for the week.

He gives you advice on how you should play, on what armor you need.

Next day. Rinse. Repeat. And another talk from your guild leader about how you are supposed to play a game.

That's why I hate raiding.

  kevjards

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/27/10
Posts: 1445

7/09/11 8:44:10 PM#11

i think a lot of people get put off raiding,when you hear something like experienced people only all the time..and must haver this gear for invite.i remember once on wow the content had only been released that day and this guy was asking for experienced only,he got slaughtered.i play conan and i,m lucky enough to be in a guild that does,nt mind that i,m not the greatest player and they will take anyone into a raid as long as they are prepared to listen.and we have a great time and a laugh.some peeps are just scared they will screw it up and not be allowed back,by that i mean get on a blacklist of somekind.imo anyways..i maybe wrong.

  Golelorn

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/23/03
Posts: 1058

7/09/11 8:46:05 PM#12
Originally posted by MMOExposed
Originally posted by Golelorn

Unpopular?? I wish.

The most popular games are based of raiding. What are you talking about?

 

Personally, I've never liked raiding. Its repetitive, and unadventurous.

Well I remember people cheered the fact that Anet doesnt want Raid Dungeons. Lot of people said they hated Raiding. Well why? Raiding fits the Massively Multiplayer element of PvE in MMORPG.  Why is it so Unliked? Rather have 1v1 PvE or something?

Have you ever read a fantasy book where there were 30 people attacking one guy and no heroes?

Where did this notion of raids even come from? In EQ it was a joke. Half the raid force could go afk, and it wouldn't matter. At least, today, only one or two DPS can afford to fall asleep.

Like someone else said these raids require far too much personal time investment for a game, imo.

 

However, to say raiding is unpopular to MMO gamers is like saying pepperoni is unpopulat to pizza lovers, because some people don't like pepperoni.

  Angier2758

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/05/09
Posts: 1060

7/09/11 8:47:11 PM#13

It sucks when you *have* to get on to play a game..... it doesn't feeling like playing anymore which for a lot of people it defeats the purpose.

 

If you have a lot of free time "having" to be on isn't that big of a deal.  When you come home from work and you're exhausted the last thing you want to hear is a little twit telling you that you're not doing enough DPS for his liking.

 

 

Also lets face it... raiding is just trial and error... then it becomes the same ol same ol.  Imagine if the end game was more dynamic in these games.

  EndDream

Novice Member

Joined: 12/07/05
Posts: 1170

7/09/11 8:47:18 PM#14

Raiding is very popular, the people that hate it just post more on forums.

Remember Old School Ultima Online

  Castillle

Forum Bunny

Joined: 10/24/10
Posts: 2681

7/09/11 8:48:14 PM#15

Ill repeat the most relevant part of my last post :

Why need raid dungeons when you can get alllllll your friends together, even if there were 60 of you, and you can do dynamic content and the enemies will scale to your number accordingly? 

So the "massively multiplayer" aspect youre talking about can be done in guild wars 2.  And not just at end game.  You can get 100 of your level 1 friends and go "raid" those dynamic events and it will be a LOT more fun than "ok d00ds lets grind to max level then like...lets split into 2 groups of 40 and 2 groups of 10.   The 40 people groups go and raid this and the 2 groups of 10 can go raid that! ok alright? lets go go go grind to max ppl!"

 

Edit : Just because there are no raid dungeons doesnt mean  there will be no raiding.

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  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 15533

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

7/09/11 8:48:50 PM#16
Originally posted by EndDream

Raiding is very popular, the people that hate it just post more on forums.

They have time to, lol, they're not raiding.

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  EndDream

Novice Member

Joined: 12/07/05
Posts: 1170

7/09/11 8:49:39 PM#17
Originally posted by Malickie
Originally posted by EndDream

Raiding is very popular, the people that hate it just post more on forums.

They have time to, lol, they're not raiding.

Yep... and honestly I'm not a huge raider or anything... I've done it and its OK but all of the bitching we hear on forums is by the minority most of the time.

Remember Old School Ultima Online

  whilan

Keeper of the Archives

Joined: 1/30/07
Posts: 3113

7/09/11 8:52:08 PM#18
Originally posted by Castillle

Ill repeat the most relevant part of my last post :

Why need raid dungeons when you can get alllllll your friends together, even if there were 60 of you, and you can do dynamic content and the enemies will scale to your number accordingly? 

So the "massively multiplayer" aspect youre talking about can be done in guild wars 2.  And not just at end game.  You can get 100 of your level 1 friends and go "raid" those dynamic events and it will be a LOT more fun than "ok d00ds lets grind to max level then like...lets split into 2 groups of 40 and 2 groups of 10.   The 40 people groups go and raid this and the 2 groups of 10 can go raid that! ok alright? lets go go go grind to max ppl!"

I'm not a follower of GW2 by any stretch of the imagination so i could be wrong here, but i think one of the fans said that they only scale up to at the most an X number of people like 10 or 15, so 100 would just zerg it and kill it easy.

Maybe someone following GW2 closer then i am could shed some insight to this.

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  Meowhead

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Joined: 1/31/09
Posts: 3728

7/09/11 8:57:13 PM#19
Originally posted by whilan

I'm not a follower of GW2 by any stretch of the imagination so i could be wrong here, but i think one of the fans said that they only scale up to at the most an X number of people like 10 or 15, so 100 would just zerg it and kill it easy.

Maybe someone following GW2 closer then i am could shed some insight to this.

Smaller events have a max number, yeah.  Like 'Fight off the level 2 boss at the town'.

The big world bosses like The Shatterer (Well, even though he's only like a level 35 boss, but whatever) require a lot more people.  The minimum is higher, and the maximum cap is considerably higher.  Ten people would most likely just bounce off of it.

That also has a lot of other events going on attached to it... like protecting a supply caravan that is bringing in supplies to fix the artillery... which people can then man and use to fire from range with heavy weapons.

That's a nice thing about having a big event happening in an open world, as opposed to within an enclosed dungeon space.  You can have people moving in and out, and pretty far ranging off-shoot events for smaller groups of people to do.

(edit:  Actually, in a previous post about raiding, you mentioned stuff like that.  That's the kind of stuff I like myself, things that have big groups split organically into smaller groups, all working towards a bigger goal.  Hopefully the even bigger world bosses will have a lot of it.

Will they do it right?  Dunno, but the engine definitely allows for it, and the developers have talked about it a bit.  Implementation is key here, and without a full copy of the game or even full access to beta (Which isn't out yet), it's really just guesswork.)

  Castillle

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Posts: 2681

7/09/11 8:58:35 PM#20
Originally posted by whilan
Originally posted by Castillle

Ill repeat the most relevant part of my last post :

Why need raid dungeons when you can get alllllll your friends together, even if there were 60 of you, and you can do dynamic content and the enemies will scale to your number accordingly? 

So the "massively multiplayer" aspect youre talking about can be done in guild wars 2.  And not just at end game.  You can get 100 of your level 1 friends and go "raid" those dynamic events and it will be a LOT more fun than "ok d00ds lets grind to max level then like...lets split into 2 groups of 40 and 2 groups of 10.   The 40 people groups go and raid this and the 2 groups of 10 can go raid that! ok alright? lets go go go grind to max ppl!"

I'm not a follower of GW2 by any stretch of the imagination so i could be wrong here, but i think one of the fans said that they only scale up to at the most an X number of people like 10 or 15, so 100 would just zerg it and kill it easy.

Maybe someone following GW2 closer then i am could shed some insight to this.

Actually no, most events scale up to 20 people (which the devs said is subject to change)  initially, most of them were supposed to scale up to 10.

But there are  still a number of events that scale up to a maximum of 100 people.

 

Edit :

And its not that raiding is unpopular.  PEople tend to like large scale multiplayer stuff.  The main problem is barrier of entry caused by WoW style tiered raiding.

If you looked at kings quests in Fiesta, that is busy ALL the time. Why?  Because its accessible from level 5 and it gets progressively more complex.  But by the time it gets to that point, people already know what to do in raids, unlike in WoW where its "omaigawd Im soloing!" then "omaigawd Im grouping" then "omaigawd Im raiding"

In fiesta, its "Omaigawd I just finished the tutorial!" then "OMAIGAWD iM RAIDING!"

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