Can't say i'd want to play an MMO as a single player game. Would hate to be forced to do it as a requirement for something in the online part.

MMO's as they are, are horrible actual games. They are severely dumbed down and immensely repetitive compared to an actual single-player game, the redeming thing is that you can play with others in a persistant game world.

A single player campaign for those who want to do it, sure. But it'll take people away from the server populations.

A required single player campaign to reach certain areas and such for when you logon for multiplayer, I wouldn't play it.

Most MMO these days have ways for solo-play anyway. OP is pointless.

hey, while we're at it, let's make a cheeseburger without cheese

Originally posted by SuperXero89

Just don't understand why so many people long to play online games by themselves.

 This.

So now there's a drive to remove the MMO out of MMORPG, eh?  Go figure.

Originally posted by UsualSuspect

Originally posted by SuperXero89

Just don't understand why so many people long to play online games by themselves.

 This.

Because you cant decide to join up with people in a singler player game, nor is there really any single player games that play like mmos.

The technical reason why that dosen't happen is because in a persistent multiplayer world the client can't be trusted.

They can't afford to have you complete things on your own PC and then reward you with ingame gold or items or whatever that you get to keep in your online game because that can be cheated in a million ways and you'd have people making unlimited gold and breaking the game economy within weeks of the start..

What you suggest will never happen, in any well written game the client isn't allowed to do anything more than graphically display what the server tells it is in your avatar's immediate vicinity and send various commands and requests to the server. A MMO client is not a game it's a terminal.

Also the market for people who can afford to buy videogames and have internet access but sometimes don't but still want to play videogames in the Gobi Desert or Antartica or whatever that internet-less place is, is not very large i bet :P.

I just don't get it though. Why not use resources to introduce better social tools, group oriented gameplay, things that would promote community, instead of introducing a feature that would make mmo's  even more anti-social.

I thought the single palyer thing in aoc was kinda of neat, but that was just a tutorial. Offline single player features are literarly the exact opposite of what makes mmo's fun(for me atleast).

Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game; if people want a single player experience then they will pick up a quality single player RPG title like Oblivion, Morrowind etc. This is not the section of the market MMO developers are trying to fill.

Sometimes I feel like group play, sometimes I don't.

For those times I don't feel like grouping I'd like to have options other than log out.

I think this would be a brilliant idea! If you want to play singleplayer in a MMORPG, then log the bloddy well off and do your thing instead of whining to devs to make their multiplayer games more solo friendly.

@op: +1 from me :)

Originally posted by Siris23

Sometimes I feel like group play, sometimes I don't.

For those times I don't feel like grouping I'd like to have options other than log out.

you could remain online while you

a) walk the dog

b) do the dishes

c) read the news

d) call a few friend over

... you where this is going? The possibilities are endless ;)

Originally posted by warmaster670

Originally posted by UsualSuspect

Originally posted by SuperXero89

Just don't understand why so many people long to play online games by themselves.

 This.

Because you cant decide to join up with people in a singler player game, nor is there really any single player games that play like mmos.

I just read your response several times to make sure I wasn't misreading it... and I'm pretty certain I'm not.

Your response is not addressing SuperXero's statement at all.

They're pondering why people are so eager to play online multiplayer games by themselves... and your response is "because they can't decide to join up with people in a single player game"...

Huh?

Your remark would be a good answer to a question like "Why are people eager to have multiplayer options added to single player games?".

A response for SuperXero's question would be because a lot of gamers (and people in general, for sure) ultimately are only interested in one thing: themselves. MMOs are traditionally designed around a concept of "we". Another reason is because their entire approach to the genre is to try and play it like a single player game.

Many MMO players, since WoW blew the genre open and brought a whole bunch of players into the genre who'd never played a MMO before - and, in many cases, didn't even know WoW was a MMO, or even what a MMO was - have approached the games with what I call a "console gamer mentality". That is "finish the game as quickly as possible".

You could easily tell this was - and still is - the case by the complaints they made. "Combat is too slow", "too long to get to the level cap", "not soloable enough", and so on. Most all the complaints made were related to things typical of single-player games. A common theme in console gaming is "beating the game as fast as possible", for bragging rights or whatever. Well, since you can't really "finish" a MMO as it has no "End", they looked for a surrogate, which became Level Cap and/or End Game.

And so the console gamer mentality evolved into "MMOs being all about getting to the end-game/level cap as quickly as possible".... which is an argument/complaint you would see all over the place. Even when there was no clear win condition, and it was clear that a large part of the experience - the majority of it in most cases - of playing a MMO was the journey (the questing, leveling, etc) along the way to level cap/end game, the distinction didn't seem to quite "latch on". The console gamer crowd didn't stop and say "Oh, these games are different than the single player console games I'm used to.. They're not about getting to the end of the game as fast as possible. They're more about the journey along the way", and then adjust their expectations and playstyles accordingly.

What they did instead was to start trying to shoe-horn the MMO genre into their single-player "console gamer" mindset. You saw arguments crop up all over in the vein of "MMOs are all about end-game! The only reason they have leveling is to milk you for as much money as they can before you get there!" or "Anything before end game is just useless filler content. The real game starts at level cap". How often have we seen those arguments made?

Basically... Thanks to WoW's popularity blowing the genre wide-open (no, I'm not demonizing WoW.. just stating a fact about its influence on the genre... folks can put away the hatchets and pitchforks), an army of new MMO gamers has swept into the genre, declared it as "its own" and started demanding changes to better suit their established single-player preferences rather than adapt themselves to the differences of a multiplayer setting.

I've sat back and watched it happen over the last several years since the rumblings and murmurs of complaint began from the first wave of new consoler-gamers to enter the MMO genre. I've also had the opportunity to experience the genre and its playerbase prior to MMOs going mainstream. I think I could count on one hand the total number of times I saw anyone complain that MMOs were too slow, not soloable enough, etc. Since MMOs went mainstream, however? I can run out of digits to count on in a single reading session counting all the instances of any one of those complaints.

This situation always reminds me of an episode I saw of The Brady Bunch wayyyy back, forever ago, when I was a young kid.. maybe 6 or 7 years old.

In the episode, the boys had built a club-house, decorated it and set it up the way they wanted it.  It was rough and rugged and not at all "pretty" but it was what they liked; a typical boys' clubhouse. Then, one day they come in to find that the girls had come in and basically taken over. There were pink curtains, flowers and overall "girly" colors everywhere.

That episode always seems so "spot on" to what has happened since the console crowd entered the MMO scene. They basically walked in, saw the place, declared it as "theirs" and started demanding MMOs be changed to better suit their solo-gamer, console-style approach to gaming.

Now, I know there are some people here who take things literally and 100% at face value.. And I can see some raising their pitchforks and hatchets again, thinking, "you're saying console gamers are girly?". No, I'm not saying that. It's the situation overall of one group coming in and declaring something "their own" I'm getting at... though something could be said for the continued simplification and "streamlining" of MMOs that has taken place in that time as well.

Anyway... That's my take on it.

@WSIMike: Very nice write-up. I very much agree on your analysis, and I think there's much truth in the club house metaphore.

Originally posted by Mimzel

@WSIMike: Very nice write-up. I very much agree on your analysis, and I think there's much truth in the club house metaphore.

Yeah. I know there are people who are going to take a lot of offense to that (perhaps because I've hit a nerve), but that's really the way I've seen it play out.

I still remember, like yesterday, people asking for "just a little more solo content that I can do if I don't have time to group up or don't want to. I don't want everything into solo content. These games are about players cooperating.. I get that".

And, in some cases, they got that. But it didn't stop with that. It snowballed... Before long people wanted more solo content. And then more... and then more. Or they wanted progression to be "a little quicker", then quicker still... then quicker still. And so on.

Some of us could see it happening and called it out, warning of where it could lead. We were told to stop being paranoid and were compared to ugly creatures who live under bridges for suggesting it.

Yet, look where we are now.

There are people these days who argue - with 100% seriousness - that 100% of MMORPGs - all content, including raids - should be soloable and are actually indignant that they aren't.

Sadder still, MMOs are almost at that point.

I wish I'd bookmarked or otherwise saved the posts of those who told others and myself we were idiots for suggesting it back when we did. Would love to see what those people would say now.

Originally posted by warmaster670

Originally posted by UsualSuspect

Originally posted by SuperXero89

Just don't understand why so many people long to play online games by themselves.

 This.

Because you cant decide to join up with people in a singler player game, nor is there really any single player games that play like mmos.

Morrowind felt like a mmo to me -- w no players heh

Originally posted by WSIMike

Originally posted by Mimzel

@WSIMike: Very nice write-up. I very much agree on your analysis, and I think there's much truth in the club house metaphore.

Yeah. I know there are people who are going to take a lot of offense to that (perhaps because I've hit a nerve), but that's really the way I've seen it play out.

I still remember, like yesterday, people asking for "just a little more solo content that I can do if I don't have time to group up or don't want to. I don't want everything into solo content. These games are about players cooperating.. I get that".

And, in some cases, they got that. But it didn't stop with that. It snowballed... Before long people wanted more solo content. And then more... and then more. Or they wanted progression to be "a little quicker", then quicker still... then quicker still. And so on.

Some of us could see it happening and called it out, warning of where it could lead. We were told to stop being paranoid and were compared to ugly creatures who live under bridges for suggesting it.

Yet, look where we are now.

There are people these days who argue - with 100% seriousness - that 100% of MMORPGs - all content, including raids - should be soloable and are actually indignant that they aren't.

Sadder still, MMOs are almost at that point.

I wish I'd bookmarked or otherwise saved the posts of those who told others and myself we were idiots for suggesting it back when we did. Would love to see what those people would say now.

 Why be offended.  You are like the people I heard complain about hybrid cars when they came out because they had no power and they would stop making gas cars that care cheaper.  The world of MMO's has progressed.  The old model was fail as far as investors and businesses are concerned.  They did not turn a big enough profit to justify the expense.  So you were stuck with 3 or 4 games to play.  Now we have a crap load and more on the way.  We will not go back to the "good old days".  Solo or even Single player options are the future because more people want them than not.  Welcome to the future if you do not like it well....you can still keep your 1970's gas guzzler on the road.

Originally posted by WSIMike

Yeah. I know there are people who are going to take a lot of offense to that (perhaps because I've hit a nerve), but that's really the way I've seen it play out.

A well-written post, but I have to respectfully disagree somewhat.    For the record, I'm not a console gamer.  I don't own any, unless you count my Atari 2600 or Intellivision collecting dust in my attic.     I got into gaming through pen and paper D&D in the late 70s.    I still regularly DM pnp sessions.

I play a TON of games (semi-retired).    Some are single-player, some are MMO.    I do NOT play games to make friends, or meet people.   That's not why I"m there.   If I wanted those things, I'd go to a social/chat site.    I'm in that MMO because, and only because it looked like a fun game to play.     I've no hatred or dislike against others, but getting to know them is not part of my game plan.    If someone asks a question about the game, I'm happy to give them the answer if I know it.

So I create my character and start playing through the game and sooner or later I always reach a point where some NPC says to me "You must find x number of friends to continue".    Arrrgh.    I was having fun just playing the game up to that point.   Now the game tells me, like a kindergarten teacher, you must go find some friends to continue playing.     At this point I've few choices, neither desirable:   I can quit playing or drop that quest chain, or I can go ask some total strangers to stop whatever they were doing so that I can continue through the game.    As I said, I've nothing against people but I'm not logged in to meet or make friends.

The purpose of a game, even if it's an unintended one, should NOT be to make people become friends, it should be to provide a fun game experience.     I always have, and always will be frustrated when game design forces me into doing things that I'm not there for.     It doesn't mean soloers don't belong in an MMO; I usually have a lot of fun other than these roadblocks.    But those roadblocks don't need to be there, even in an MMO.    While providing players with a fun game, it should allow for, but not demand that people play together.

To be fair, I've no problem with some group-only content in my games, as long as it doesn't bar me from reaching certain goals, obtaining the best loot, etc.     I've seen no reasonable explanation as to why MMOs cannot offer alternate paths to the same destination; if you like to group, take the group path, soloers the solo path.

So, I've stated why I like to solo, but you may ask why play an MMO if I'm only going to solo?    Because I love games, and if a game looks like fun, I want to play it.    MMOs offer many things, other than group combat, that solo games can never offer; first off, they are much, much larger.   They are persistant, with regular content additions.   They feel alive in a way a single-player game never can.    Just because I'm not playing the game to make new friends, does not mean I don't enjoy seeing crowded cities full of others playing.   That adds to my enjoyment of the game.    Plus auction houses, crafting, hell even general chat as something to read while questing are all additions to the game that do not exist in SP games.    So, for the soloer, there are lots of nice features to be had in MMOs other than group-combat.

Did you know that the earliest MMOs had no raids or group-only missions?   None.    And yet some people still grouped, even though the game didn't require it.   Why?   Because they wanted to, because it was fun to them.    But you can't then say that anyone not grouping up for combat is playing that type of game wrong.    

It's not up to you or I to decide and declare what the definition of an MMO is or should be.    You may lament that current MMOs are not what you'd like them to be, and I can sympathize with that, for I feel the same way.     But each person is free to play the game in the way that's the most fun to them, and for that person it is the correct way.

Unless we're going to pony up the money ourselves, all we can do is what we're doing here, discuss how we'd like MMOs to be.  

Originally posted by SwampRob

Originally posted by WSIMike

Yeah. I know there are people who are going to take a lot of offense to that (perhaps because I've hit a nerve), but that's really the way I've seen it play out.

A well-written post, but I have to respectfully disagree somewhat.    For the record, I'm not a console gamer.  I don't own any, unless you count my Atari 2600 or Intellivision collecting dust in my attic.     I got into gaming through pen and paper D&D in the late 70s.    I still regularly DM pnp sessions.

I play a TON of games (semi-retired).    Some are single-player, some are MMO.    I do NOT play games to make friends, or meet people.   That's not why I"m there.   If I wanted those things, I'd go to a social/chat site.    I'm in that MMO because, and only because it looked like a fun game to play.     I've no hatred or dislike against others, but getting to know them is not part of my game plan.    If someone asks a question about the game, I'm happy to give them the answer if I know it.

So I create my character and start playing through the game and sooner or later I always reach a point where some NPC says to me "You must find x number of friends to continue".    Arrrgh.    I was having fun just playing the game up to that point.   Now the game tells me, like a kindergarten teacher, you must go find some friends to continue playing.     At this point I've few choices, neither desirable:   I can quit playing or drop that quest chain, or I can go ask some total strangers to stop whatever they were doing so that I can continue through the game.    As I said, I've nothing against people but I'm not logged in to meet or make friends.

The purpose of a game, even if it's an unintended one, should NOT be to make people become friends, it should be to provide a fun game experience.     I always have, and always will be frustrated when game design forces me into doing things that I'm not there for.     It doesn't mean soloers don't belong in an MMO; I usually have a lot of fun other than these roadblocks.    But those roadblocks don't need to be there, even in an MMO.    While providing players with a fun game, it should allow for, but not demand that people play together.

To be fair, I've no problem with some group-only content in my games, as long as it doesn't bar me from reaching certain goals, obtaining the best loot, etc.     I've seen no reasonable explanation as to why MMOs cannot offer alternate paths to the same destination; if you like to group, take the group path, soloers the solo path.

So, I've stated why I like to solo, but you may ask why play an MMO if I'm only going to solo?    Because I love games, and if a game looks like fun, I want to play it.    MMOs offer many things, other than group combat, that solo games can never offer; first off, they are much, much larger.   They are persistant, with regular content additions.   They feel alive in a way a single-player game never can.    Just because I'm not playing the game to make new friends, does not mean I don't enjoy seeing crowded cities full of others playing.   That adds to my enjoyment of the game.    Plus auction houses, crafting, hell even general chat as something to read while questing are all additions to the game that do not exist in SP games.    So, for the soloer, there are lots of nice features to be had in MMOs other than group-combat.

Did you know that the earliest MMOs had no raids or group-only missions?   None.    And yet some people still grouped, even though the game didn't require it.   Why?   Because they wanted to, because it was fun to them.    But you can't then say that anyone not grouping up for combat is playing that type of game wrong.    

It's not up to you or I to decide and declare what the definition of an MMO is or should be.    You may lament that current MMOs are not what you'd like them to be, and I can sympathize with that, for I feel the same way.     But each person is free to play the game in the way that's the most fun to them, and for that person it is the correct way.

Unless we're going to pony up the money ourselves, all we can do is what we're doing here, discuss how we'd like MMOs to be.  

Great post explaining why there should be solo games and group games.

There's no reason to force those that like grouping games to play a solo game.

No reason to force those that like solo games to play a group game.

You have to set the difficulty level for ALL players in the game, not just some.

If the game is easy to solo to the cap, it's easy for ALL players to solo to the cap, including those that do not like games with an easy solo to the cap.

If the game is hard to solo to the cap, which means difficult enough to require recruiting groups, then the game is difficult for ALL players, even those that like an easy solo to the cap.

The best solution is to design TWO games.

1. Games with an easy solo to teh cap for solo players.

2. Games that do not have an easy solo to the cap for group players.

Both kinds of gamers can play the kind of game they like, without bothering the other.

Note, that you can still group in number one, and you can still solo in number 2.

Just because the option EXISTS, doesn't mean it satisfies someone that prefers a certain kind of game.

You can solo to the cap in the original EQ, and some players did.

You can exclusively group to teh cap in WoW, and some players do.

Doesn't make those games good group games, or good solo games, just because you CAN do something.

But it is MMO...well the world is MMO and I do not get a group together to kill some snakes in my backyard.