I may be in the minority, but I'm a fan of auto attack based on skill points or talents. . I've played a lot of MMOs in my day and the one thing I would have to say I'm not particularly fond of is the "smash a key or click a special attack to defeat your opponent. Call me lazy, but I would love a game that utilized an intuitive AI during combat that, based upon your skills, talents, would fight the entire fight, special attacks and all, after you simply initiated attack mode.  For me, keeping my eye on special attack keys, party health, mob health, etc. is a distractor.  It causes me to miss the graphic animations. I'm interested in a game that uses the above mentioned AI and provides smooth, awesome combat animations that included blades clashing and sparking off one another. When's the last time you actually saw a warrior block a blow with his shield?  Or two swordsmen engaged in a deadly duel where bladework/skill actually mattered? Alas, we'll probably never see this type of dynamic because games seem to be gravitating more toward the twitch mechanic so people can brag about their mad skills. Thoughts?

Originally posted by Grym

 I may be in the minority, but I'm a fan of auto attack based on skill points or talents. . I've played a lot of MMOs in my day and the one thing I would have to say I'm not particularly fond of is the "smash a key or click a special attack to defeat your opponent. Call me lazy, but I would love a game that utilized an intuitive AI during combat that, based upon your skills, talents, would fight the entire fight, special attacks and all, after you simply initiated attack mode.  For me, keeping my eye on special attack keys, party health, mob health, etc. is a distractor.  It causes me to miss the graphic animations. I'm interested in a game that uses the above mentioned AI and provides smooth, awesome combat animations that included blades clashing and sparking off one another. When's the last time you actually saw a warrior block a blow with his shield?  Or two swordsmen engaged in a deadly duel where bladework/skill actually mattered? Alas, we'll probably never see this type of dynamic because games seem to be gravitating more toward the twitch mechanic so people can brag about their mad skills. Thoughts?

World of Warcraft has just that.

What else you want?

Originally posted by MMOExposed

World of Warcraft has just that.

This feels like an indirect admission that you were 'that guy" who stood in the fire, didn't stand in the energy shield, didn't interrupt mobs, and couldn't kite so wiped the raid.

WOW is nothing like what the OP describes.  Autoattack or not, if you're not at your computer reacting in the correct way, you die and/or endanger the raid.

Nope.... no... I don't believe it does.  When I played that game years ago, you still had to mash a bunch of hot keys or click special attack keys.  Not what I was talking about. Thanks for playing : )

MOexposed, He means he wants something akin to FF12 or Dragon Age team mates who fight and stuff based on specific ai.  Whatever thingies you select for ai will control what skills they use n stuff.

Where the AI basically plays the game for you and you just watch the visuals n stuff.

I do agree that I like the idea of it...I know what you mean though OP.  Kind of a more character focused Majesty game o.o

Edit :

Fleshed out details on ff12 and dragon age team mates

Originally posted by Castillle

MOexposed, He means he wants something akin to FF12 or Dragon Age team mates who fight and stuff based on specific ai.  Whatever thingies you select for ai will control what skills they use n stuff.

Where the AI basically plays the game for you and you just watch the visuals n stuff.

 

I do agree that I like the idea of it...I know what you mean though OP.  Kind of a more character focused Majesty game o.o

 

Edit :

Fleshed out details on ff12 and dragon age team mates

Oh, now I understand.

Well Guild Wars isnt a MMO, but it has multiplayer. That has that.

Also if he willing to wait, SWTOR has AI bots.

Being a warrior in Everquest was like this.  You just watch your guy fight and press the "Kick" button whenever it comes up.  Extremely boring IMO...but to each his own.

Originally posted by MMOExposed

Originally posted by Castillle

MOexposed, He means he wants something akin to FF12 or Dragon Age team mates who fight and stuff based on specific ai.  Whatever thingies you select for ai will control what skills they use n stuff.

Where the AI basically plays the game for you and you just watch the visuals n stuff.

 

I do agree that I like the idea of it...I know what you mean though OP.  Kind of a more character focused Majesty game o.o

 

Edit :

Fleshed out details on ff12 and dragon age team mates

Oh, now I understand.

 

Well Guild Wars isnt a MMO, but it has multiplayer. That has that.

Also if he willing to wait, SWTOR has AI bots.

Guid wars and SWTOR wont have the same level of control as FF12 or dragon age though.  In those games, you can set certain skills to be used when certain criteria are met and thats what makes them a lot more...Fun to watch imo.  

I doubt you can set things  like that in sWTOR and I havent tried guild wars so idk about that.  Can you customize their ai to a degree there? :O

My thoughts are: there's nothing "twitch" about clicking or pressing a button for every action you perform and I will be much happier when autoattack is phased out, Mr Lazy. You asked for it.

Originally posted by mmoguy43

My thoughts are: there's nothing "twitch" about clicking or pressing a button for every action you perform and I will be much happier when autoattack is phased out, Mr Lazy. You asked for it.

 Yes... yes I did. And I'm ok with that.  ;)  

"For me, keeping my eye on special attack keys, party health, mob health, etc. is a distractor."

That's the point. To increase the difficulty of a game, the developer can add different obstacles to hinder your progress, but at the same time increase your personal skill.

Take the game DOTA for instance. To kill a monster, you have to right click it. To kill a friendly monster, you have to press A (attack) and then left click on the friendly monster. This requires more clicks than the previous action, thus increasing the time spent doing it, as well as the difficulty of the movement.

By demanding a special AI that guides you through your combat scene for you, is (IMO) a way too easy solution, and there wouldn't be much difference between good and bad players. And who likes that?

A game should be hard, or at least contain the possibility to choose a harder difficulty.

The thing you SHOULD be requesting, is a physics-based, non-auto-attack, action RPG combat system. Imagine actually using your shield to block certain incoming objects (swords, arrows, hammers), completely avoiding it, instead of just randomly reducing the incoming damage. Or swinging a sword, and if you hit, you hit. This would be the same with spells and skills.

We want hard, difficult and challenging controls, that allows us to immerse ourselves into the character we have built throughout months of gameplay. I want my fireball to be able to miss, and I want to be able to block the far-away incoming arrow with the well-timed click of a button. Not just a rail that guides us towards the end of a battle.

No, thanks. Auto attack and tab targetting feels wrong to me. A good combat system should feel a bit like real melee combat, there you are trying to outwit your opponent.

Using a real sword actually takes both skills and brains, you and your opponent tries out eachothers weaknesses until the right opportunity arrives and you take it.

I want a combat system that takes in mind both your and your opponents attacks and parries. One with collision detection like AoC (but I would prefer one where the blade actually stops when it hit's something) instead of targetting and without the wimpy auto attacks. In fact it should be auto parry instead of auto attack.

It is not actually that impossible to make. I have been giving it some thoughts. I would like an dynamic skillbar where you get your attacks depending what happened in the last combat round (or whatever you call it, the last strike). Say that you did a prodding attack and your opponent did an all out strike, that opens him up for you giveng you certain strikes while he gets more limited options since he overextended himself.

It works against multiple opponents as well but chances are that the one flanking you will have a field day and get nasty attacks.

A good combat system is about tactics and outwitting your opponent, not about auto attacks and pressing your fastkeys in the same order no matter what. 

Of course this system might not work as well with magic, the idea was for a historical game with focus on melee combat even if low fantasy alá "Game of thrones" is fine as well. and yes, it do require a better AI than most MMOs.

But at least I am pretty bored of the same combat system where you need nothing more than a macro to win most fights. I played the same since M59 in '96 and I think there are several ways to both make combat more realistic and more fun. This idea is just an example to show the concept.

Although I might not want it as extreme as the OP I also like auto attack. Maybe it comes from my days of old school turn based RPGs that I grew up on. For me, RPGs shouldn't be about who has the better twitch skills, that's what FPS and fighting games have always been about.

That said, I don't think the controls should be dumbed down to the point where it takes no skill whatsoever and the game does all the work. I do think attacks need to be more about knowledge of the game, teamwork, and what attacks are the most efficient, not who has the better twitch skills.

Originally posted by Claes

The thing you SHOULD be requesting, is a physics-based, non-auto-attack, action RPG combat system. Imagine actually using your shield to block certain incoming objects (swords, arrows, hammers), completely avoiding it, instead of just randomly reducing the incoming damage. Or swinging a sword, and if you hit, you hit. This would be the same with spells and skills.

We want hard, difficult and challenging controls, that allows us to immerse ourselves into the character we have built throughout months of gameplay. I want my fireball to be able to miss, and I want to be able to block the far-away incoming arrow with the well-timed click of a button. Not just a rail that guides us towards the end of a battle.

My thoughts exactly. :)

Originally posted by k11keeper

Although I might not want it as extreme as the OP I also like auto attack. Maybe it comes from my days of old school turn based RPGs that I grew up on. For me, RPGs shouldn't be about who has the better twitch skills, that's what FPS and fighting games have always been about.

That said, I don't think the controls should be dumbed down to the point where it takes no skill whatsoever and the game does all the work. I do think attacks need to be more about knowledge of the game, teamwork, and what attacks are the most efficient, not who has the better twitch skills.

In most RPGs, turned based or pen and paper you win combat through strategy and by being smarter than the opponent, pick the right attack or defense and you win.

I don't see auto attack doing that at all. I do agree that RPG combat should not be twitched based combat, those skills are very different but auto attacks are not the solution.

Originally posted by Loke666

No, thanks. Auto attack and tab targetting feels wrong to me. A good combat system should feel a bit like real melee combat, there you are trying to outwit your opponent.

Using a real sword actually takes both skills and brains, you and your opponent tries out eachothers weaknesses until the right opportunity arrives and you take it.

I want a combat system that takes in mind both your and your opponents attacks and parries. One with collision detection like AoC (but I would prefer one where the blade actually stops when it hit's something) instead of targetting and without the wimpy auto attacks. In fact it should be auto parry instead of auto attack.

It is not actually that impossible to make. I have been giving it some thoughts. I would like an dynamic skillbar where you get your attacks depending what happened in the last combat round (or whatever you call it, the last strike). Say that you did a prodding attack and your opponent did an all out strike, that opens him up for you giveng you certain strikes while he gets more limited options since he overextended himself.

It works against multiple opponents as well but chances are that the one flanking you will have a field day and get nasty attacks.

A good combat system is about tactics and outwitting your opponent, not about auto attacks and pressing your fastkeys in the same order no matter what. 

Of course this system might not work as well with magic, the idea was for a historical game with focus on melee combat even if low fantasy alá "Game of thrones" is fine as well. and yes, it do require a better AI than most MMOs.

But at least I am pretty bored of the same combat system where you need nothing more than a macro to win most fights. I played the same since M59 in '96 and I think there are several ways to both make combat more realistic and more fun. This idea is just an example to show the concept.

 I like your concept. Even though I am admittedly lazy, this type of system would enhance the visceral feel of combat. I think what I'm looking for is a game that includes blocking attacks more often than current MMOs provide. This type of combat would make for more interesting play IMO.

Originally posted by Grym

 I like your concept. Even though I am admittedly lazy, this type of system would enhance the visceral feel of combat. I think what I'm looking for is a game that includes blocking attacks more often than current MMOs provide. This type of combat would make for more interesting play IMO.

Thanks.

Yeah. I want a game where the combat feels a little more like real combat. Holding a sword and fighting someone else is a real rush, but the mechanics behind it is a lot more advanced than most people seems to think. It actually is a little like chess.

My idea is more of an example on how to solve it, me and a few buddies were talking if it would be possible to make a fun and more realistic combat system, some said it was impossible and a few of us made some ideas that should work. A good combat system should have the following rules:

* Strategy is the most important thing to win

* You can't win on spamming the same button

* All out attacks should be risky

* The resault off an attacks should be based on what both you and your enemy just did

* Block, parry and dodge should open up opportunities 

Auto attack in itself is lazy game design; the time hasn't been spent factoring both skill and aesthetics into the equation; which is why you have the opposite which is twitch based combat.

You essentially have two extremes, where in my opinion the solution lies somewhere in between. To have a system in MMO's where you simply innitiated combat, then sat back and watched, as the OP suggested would become extremely dull and boring after the innitial thrill wore off. Gamers want to feel involved and attuned with their characters, not simply to be observers.

Actually, there is a game that has some classes like what the OP describes: Rift. Before you flame me, let me tell you that some combination of class trees mostly only require that you spam one macro with the ocasional finisher after you accumulate 5 points. What I used to do was set up autohotkey so that it would spam that button for me, so the only thing I had to do is press a finisher skill once every like 5 seconds, nothing more. 

Obviously there are many class combinations that don't work that way, but there are some that do, mainly melee.