Originally posted by Nerf09

Obviously the pro-forced group folks aren't happy with WOW's forced grouping perfection, cause they want more forced grouping.

I wasn't forced to group with anyone in pre-CU SWG, but I did more player cooperation than in any other game, and I'm a lonewolfer.

 Being able to solo all the way to level cap is perfecting forced-group mechanics huh? Sounds like you have it backwards. Perhaps they should make the journey to cap the grouping part of the game and save the end-game for solo content.

As mentioned above it's the blatant switch at endgame that I think is so poor in most games these days. If you can solo all the way to endgame then there should be viable endgame content for soloing as well- moreso than just collections, acheivements and such. Otherwise don't make it available at all- if all endgame combat content is going to require groups then all leveling combat should as well, at least this way players know what they are getting into.

While I don't think the leveling game should be dismissed as an extended tutorial I do think that playing the game through to level cap should give every player the experience and skill needed to participate with a good deal of ability in whatever endgame content is provided.

Grouping hands down. I play a MMO because thats what it is, interaction with other people on an RPG type game. WoW and WoW clones do it the worst. The solo quest mechanics really disengage the community leaving the game broken. WoW had a horrible community, Rift has a pretty terrible community, Aion's community makes you want to slam your face into your desk.... War...

FFXI did it the best. Everyone says hey you were forced to group in that game!... Technically no you were not "forced" into grouping in that game. It was highly recommended and mechanics were balanced around grouping. Why? Because it is a true MMO. FFXI is probably a game with one of the best communities in the MMO industry. If you wanted to solo there were options available, BST anyone? But grouping definately was way more beneficial then soloing.

You could fill your friends list up pretty quick in that game from meeting new people everyday and talking in party chat. Wait what? You actually talked in party chat in that game other then telling someone how to do there class, or how terribad they are? Yes, you actually held conversations with people while you smashed a mobs face in. What? Mobs didnt die in 10 seconds? No every mob lasted around 30 secs to a minute in the original game, unless you were in a BURN party. Everytime you killed a mob in FFXI it was a minor accomplishment.

FFXI hands down best mechanics for a MMO, for what a MMO is supposed to be. A social interacting RPG.

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Originally posted by Vunak23
Grouping hands down. I play a MMO because thats what it is, interaction with other people on an RPG type game. WoW and WoW clones do it the worst. The solo quest mechanics really disengage the community leaving the game broken. WoW had a horrible community, Rift has a pretty terrible community, Aion's community makes you want to slam your face into your desk.... War...
FFXI did it the best. Everyone says hey you were forced to group in that game!... Technically no you were not "forced" into grouping in that game. It was highly recommended and mechanics were balanced around grouping. Why? Because it is a true MMO. FFXI is probably a game with one of the best communities in the MMO industry. If you wanted to solo there were options available, BST anyone? But grouping definately was way more beneficial then soloing.
You could fill your friends list up pretty quick in that game from meeting new people everyday and talking in party chat. Wait what? You actually talked in party chat in that game other then telling someone how to do there class, or how terribad they are? Yes, you actually held conversations with people while you smashed a mobs face in. What? Mobs didnt die in 10 seconds? No every mob lasted around 30 secs to a minute in the original game, unless you were in a BURN party. Everytime you killed a mob in FFXI it was a minor accomplishment.
 
FFXI hands down best mechanics for a MMO, for what a MMO is supposed to be. A social interacting RPG.

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The fact that you (Vunak23) cannot interact with the gaming community without being in a group sounds worse to me than wanting to play the game solo, at the speed I wish to play it.

As I've said before, the group game flies past me. I gain levels quicker and fast forward through the quest dialogue. If I see a chance to mine or herbologize (new word :)), I don't so I don't hold up the rest of the group.

There is nothing wrong with wanting to group. I group from to time. What is wrong is dictating that this is the ONLY way to play/enjoy the game. It is not.

Originally posted by Palebane

Originally posted by Nerf09

Obviously the pro-forced group folks aren't happy with WOW's forced grouping perfection, cause they want more forced grouping.

I wasn't forced to group with anyone in pre-CU SWG, but I did more player cooperation than in any other game, and I'm a lonewolfer.

 Being able to solo all the way to level cap is perfecting forced-group mechanics huh? Sounds like you have it backwards. Perhaps they should make the journey to cap the grouping part of the game and save the end-game for solo content.

The idea that there are two types of content of which only one is fully rewarding (contrived group content) is the flaw in design.

In some games (Lineage for example) there was never two types of content.  Players grouped because it was faster and safer to level and farm drops.  They grouped because death penalties were severe and the loss wasn't always worth the risk.  While players often grouped anyone could solo most content if they felt like it and were good enough.  Community and socilizing were more organic and you spent time with people you liked not some jerkwad you needed to get your daily token count.

Forced grouping is a horrible design approach and is a result of contrived overly simplistic content design.

Originally posted by vesavius

This whole deabte should be redundent in 2011.

 

These games should all have 100% scalable content (and by that I mean all mobs) by now, in which the mob detects how many are in your group and adjusts it strength accordingly (with enhanced XPor drop buffs that themselves upscale the more people you join with to play- encouraging, not enforcing, grouping is good). This would allow everyone to play the way they want and experience the whole game according to their needs.

We should be so frikin past segregating content based on the number of people in a group (even if that 'group' is one).

 

The whole solo vs group vs raid debate was old 10 years ago, the devs need to solve it already.

It's an old debate I agree but I dont' agree with your solution.

It's ok to have areas that one can solo and areas the require groups. There is absolutely no reason to include any scaling unless this is some type of complete theme park game.

I soloed most of Lineage 2. there are areas in lineage 2 that required groups. For those who wanted to group they would do those areas. For those who wanted to solo they could do other areas.

I really don't see the issue here for the "it has to be one or the other".

Originally posted by madeux

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by jpnz

Originally posted by UsualSuspect

Originally posted by AlBQuirky

 

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Originally posted by jpnz
If your game has grouping as optional than the vast majority of the playerbase will not group and solo it through.

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Doesn't this line say it all? The majority of the player base wishes to solo, not group.

 

To UsualSuspect:
It must be me, then, about doing things that hold up the group action. I feel rushed to keep the group going. To stop while heading to the next dungeon/instance seems impolite to me, not far from going afk. As you stop to heal, chat, read quest lines, what have you, 4-9 or more other players are waiting for you to show up.

While in a group, I don't go afk for this very reason. To me, and the people I end up with in a group, speed is the norm.

I quit playing EQ when all my characters could not advance beyond 20th level without grouping. Who wants to group with someone solely to do this other persons quest? Certainly not I. I helped friends in EQ and it was not fun doing just their quests.

It seems our definition of "MMO" differs, so we won't see eye to eye.

The majority of the player base wants to play the game as it's delivered, modern MMO's are all about soloing, beyond novelty value there is no reason to group until you hit max level. The whole game is a single player game with a chat room, so why would people feel like they should be grouping if everything they're being fed is telling them to go solo?

And that links on to your feeling impolite. Another thing wrong with modern MMO's, they're all so fast paced that even a few minutes out means a lot of missed activity. You barely have time to type 'Hello' anymore between actions and movement, it's no wonder community is falling apart.

With the mix of speed and solo based gameplay, is it any wonder MMO's are dying? At least their communities certainly are.

Last I checked, modern MMO's are all about choices. You can group or you can solo. There are no restrictions on how the player wishes to play the game and most MMOs actually reward grouping via items/gold/reps etc. So not sure where this 'telling them to go solo' is coming from. If anything they are shown that grouping has immense benefits.

How the players play the game is left to their own devices and I can't say that's a bad thing. I'd rather choose how to play a game rather than be forced. Nothing wrong with having choices.

You just think you have choices, fact is in most modern MMORPG's soloing is the most effcient way to advance your character, ergo most people solo. (even if grouping is an option).

Rewards for grouping almost never make it worth doing, and in fact recent entries like Rift make it so you can easily skip grouping and still reach level cap almost instantly.

You don't really have any choice at all in the end

If grouping were actually FUN, you wouldn't have to bribe people to do it.

I'll agree, modern MMO's don't make grouping fun, nor rewarding, hence no one wants to do it.

In DAOC grouping was actually fun and it was the norm in many other MMO's as well.

If you missed that era, you have no idea what I'm talking about.

Originally posted by Palebane

Tolerance is a wonderful virtue. Socialization is the greatest metagame the genre posesses, in my opinion. If you can turn a jerk into a nice guy even for an hour or so, you've won.

If there were more people like you in MMOs, I'd group more, although I'm not sure, given your killer %, that I'd be willing to turn my back on you.  But then, I wouldn't turn my back on me, either! 

It's not socializing in MMOs I have a problem with anyway.  It's interdependence.  Relying on the decency and kindness of other players to enjoy a game is not something I'm comfortable with, because MMO communities aren't attracting a high percentage of decent, kind people these days, if they ever did.  When the community gives no sympathy to the individual impulse, the individual can sometimes nurture it in solitude, at least for a little while. 

I feel sorry for hypersocial people, those who are energized by social interaction and do poorly without a great deal of human contact.  Autism rates were still going up last time I checked, despite efforts to downplay the numbers.  In a few more generations, the socializers may find themselves surrounded by the lone wolves.  And maybe we're seeing that trend early in MMOs.  Hopefully if this happens, the socializers will adopt your philosophy rather than the sociopathic tendencies we see so often in the corporate and government spheres.  Otherwise, the future lone wolves of this world are likely to be fierce indeed. 

Originally posted by Palebane

Originally posted by Nerf09

Obviously the pro-forced group folks aren't happy with WOW's forced grouping perfection, cause they want more forced grouping.

I wasn't forced to group with anyone in pre-CU SWG, but I did more player cooperation than in any other game, and I'm a lonewolfer.

 Being able to solo all the way to level cap is perfecting forced-group mechanics huh? Sounds like you have it backwards. Perhaps they should make the journey to cap the grouping part of the game and save the end-game for solo content.

What kind of pouting statement is that?

Originally posted by Nerf09

Originally posted by Palebane

Originally posted by Nerf09

Obviously the pro-forced group folks aren't happy with WOW's forced grouping perfection, cause they want more forced grouping.

I wasn't forced to group with anyone in pre-CU SWG, but I did more player cooperation than in any other game, and I'm a lonewolfer.

 Being able to solo all the way to level cap is perfecting forced-group mechanics huh? Sounds like you have it backwards. Perhaps they should make the journey to cap the grouping part of the game and save the end-game for solo content.

What kind of pouting statement is that?

 I was being serious, it would be interesting to see. I do come off kinda pouty though. My apologies.

Originally posted by UsualSuspect

Originally posted by Cephus404

The problem is, most of the time, I don't find the grouping fun at all, regardless of the game, mostly because the kind of people you find who are into grouping tend to be... well, people I wouldn't want to hang out with in the first place.  The game stops being fun when you have to hang out with a bunch of retards who can't type or spell and have the IQ of a kumquat.  I'd much rather play solo and be able to pick and choose people I spend time with than be forced into groups because the game allows no other alternative.

Soloers are dicks who have no social ability and prefer to do everything alone because it makes them feel superior and gives them a much needed ego boost, due to their rather weak social lives. As in, they don't have one because they don't know how to interact with other people.

Is this a true statement? Does this cover every soloer in game? No, you say? Well, why tar everyone into grouping with the same brush? Some people who group are dicks, just like some people who solo are dicks, and neither of us want to hang out with them. But you know what? In a game with forced grouping, the dicks are soon removed from the gene pool as they end up being unable to get any groups.

You don't think that's true? I started EverQuest before it had a single expansion, I know for a fact it's true. Some people became so alienated that they eventually left and went to another server. A game that promotes grouping and community becomes a good place to be.

Let's say you were in post-apocalyptic earth and were in a small community of survivors, and one of those survivors was a useless dick who pissed off everyone? Would he be in your community for long? Same priniciple. When people need each other they either fall into line or are rejected.

Read what I said.  I never said it applied to everyone everywhere, I gave my experience.  Honestly though, I still don't find most of the hard-core grouping fanatics to be anyone I'd want to spend any time around.  They tend to want to rush through the content as fast as they can and expect everyone else to gallop along with them.  Sorry, I'm not on a mad dash to end-game, in fact, I retire any character that gets to max level, therefore I have no interest whatsoever in anyone who is trying to get there as quickly as possible.

And you know something?  I played EQ too and there were LOTS of dicks on there.  It didn't drive the dicks away, it just concentrated them into pockets, where dicks with the same interests played.  I'm sorry, your idea that somehow, everyone should be cookie cutter versions of everyone else or be pushed out of the game is idiotic.

Originally posted by Madimorga

Don't get me wrong, my cleverness in AO was very hit or miss, mostly I just died, and lots of times my point allocation schemes led to sheer gimpness, and my shiny new gear was often over-equipped, too.  Mostly I had no spare energy or time for serious twinking, but when I did twink out a character and allocate all my points correctly and figure out how to kill much higher level mobs, it gave me a sense of accomplishment that I will never obtain from grinding same level mobs for same level gear.  I'd love a game that gave that sense of accomplishment back to me.

AO was actually pretty easy to twink if you picked the right classes.  Fixers, for example, were really simple.  If I remember right, at level 140-150, I could easily take on 220 mobs.  Stick 'em to the wall, shoot 'em from afar.  Especially when grouping in the Shadowlands, you could get a group of 140ish toons and bang through 4-5 levels an hour without a single fatality.

Originally posted by Cephus404

 

AO was actually pretty easy to twink if you picked the right classes.  Fixers, for example, were really simple.  If I remember right, at level 140-150, I could easily take on 220 mobs.  Stick 'em to the wall, shoot 'em from afar.  Especially when grouping in the Shadowlands, you could get a group of 140ish toons and bang through 4-5 levels an hour without a single fatality.

Fixers and Enforcers were the two toons I never stayed interested in long enough to really get to know.  I probably had one of each in the seventies at some point or other, but that's as far as I ever went.

I don't like to be forced to geek it up in a Guild, where it's led by some unemployed bum collecting welfare or some kid.

Originally posted by Madimorga

Originally posted by vesavius

This whole deabte should be redundent in 2011.

 

These games should all have 100% scalable content (and by that I mean all mobs) by now, in which the mob detects how many are in your group and adjusts it strength accordingly (with enhanced XPor drop buffs that themselves upscale the more people you join with to play- encouraging, not enforcing, grouping is good). This would allow everyone to play the way they want and experience the whole game according to their needs.

We should be so frikin past segregating content based on the number of people in a group (even if that 'group' is one).

 

The whole solo vs group vs raid debate was old 10 years ago, the devs need to solve it already.

 

I understand what you're saying, but there is also something to be said for letting clever soloers take on mobs way higher level, and then allow them to allocate skill points in such a way that the high level items that drop are usable at much lower levels. 

 Oh yes, fully agree.

Thats why I talk about content scaling in terms of numbers in a group (even a 'group' of one) and not in terms of character level.

I agree with your second point as well, that would be nice and fullypossible within the characater level system (that allocates points based on level to be distributed amongst skills)

 

snipped the rest for clarity, but not because I didnt enjoy reading it :)

Originally posted by Nerf09

I don't like to be forced to geek it up in a Guild, where it's led by some unemployed bum collecting welfare or some kid.

Oh yes, I know all about that.  Was in a guild on AO led by a guy who spent all his time whining about how horrible his life was, but how bitching he was in the game.  Then he used to call "guild meetings" for no real reason and get mad at people for not attending.

Thank  You, I think  good

The whole point is that the genre was originally meant to be played in group.. You couldn't do a lot on your own back in UO, EQ, CoH and even WoW.. From it roots, MMORPGs are a PC version of pen and paper RPGs.. Where the idea was to undertake major quests with friends..

But somewhere along the way, something happenned.. Would be easy to throw rocks here and there, but let's just say the genre wanted to appeal to the masses.. And soon, every gaming studios were (and still are) heading in the same way : giving the possibility to play the game on your own...

I personnally think that the genre lost its soul in the process and now its working on getting a new personnality.. Or at least, the player base is asking for something new.. But I think the main problem comes from the fact that that switch came way too fast and those who once helped build the early MMORPGs would like to have that experience they had earlier.. And on the other hand, the "new" players are approaching every game as any other single player game where you only try to get to the end of the story, get your hands on end-game content, get another game, rinse and repeat..

Whose fault is it ? I don't know.. My guess is that it's everyone's fault why we're even having this discussion as how a MMORPG should be played... You won't have that kind of discussion over a FPS or RTS game..

I think this whole thread is kinda sad actually.. Some kind of proof that the entire genre is slowly going belly up...

As has been stated it's just so easy to solo the current crop of MMO's, you could do back in the early day's but damn it was hard, it was just so much safer and more fun to group.

I personally like the option to solo as I don't have the same free time as I did back when i was play EQ. I think the way that some of the games are allowing public grouping is encouraging as I've notice while playing RIFT that some of the groups I've joined to do a RIFT have decide to stay together and try a dungeon or to as well.

So maybe that's the way to bring grouping back in, start it in an easy casual manner and once people get the feel for it they'll start activelly looking for groups.

Originally posted by Kebeck

The whole point is that the genre was originally meant to be played in group.. You couldn't do a lot on your own back in UO, EQ, CoH and even WoW.. From it roots, MMORPGs are a PC version of pen and paper RPGs.. Where the idea was to undertake major quests with friends..

 

That's not the whole point of the genre and MMORPG's are not a PC version of pen and paper RPG's.