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Religion & Politics  » New York signs Gay Marriage Law

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227 posts found
  Ihmotepp

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 10/28/08
Posts: 14557

6/27/11 9:31:11 AM#81
Originally posted by baff
Originally posted by Ihmotepp
Originally posted by baff

 

 

 

If I marry a male friend in New York. Everyone will think i am gay. I cannot think of a more open declariton of sexuaitiy than to marry another man in New York city.

How about we don't call things that aren't marriages marriages.

That way there is no need for confusion.

 

We can't legislate your fear of people thinking you are gay.

 

 Yes you can.

You taught me this in another thread.

It's really easy.

You just use another word to describe a relationship that while similar is not identical.

That is why we have so many different woirds.

 

I'm fine with legislating a "civil union" for you and your Mom, or other relatives.

But I doubt that civil union law would include ALIMONY.

We need marriage for people willing to commit ot ALIMONY.

that would be gay people, and straight people.

You can enter into a "civil union" with your Mom, and some gays or lesbians can get "married".

No one will think you are gay.

Problem solved.

So sure, I think we should have both civil union and marriage.

Both would apply to straight people and gay people.

Gay people can get married, or get a civil union.

Straight people can get married or get a civil union.

Where's the discrimination?

There isn't any.

 

  baff

Novice Member

Joined: 5/22/05
Posts: 9470

6/27/11 9:36:25 AM#82
Originally posted by Ihmotepp
Originally posted by baff
Originally posted by Ihmotepp
Originally posted by baff

 

 

 

If I marry a male friend in New York. Everyone will think i am gay. I cannot think of a more open declariton of sexuaitiy than to marry another man in New York city.

How about we don't call things that aren't marriages marriages.

That way there is no need for confusion.

 

We can't legislate your fear of people thinking you are gay.

 

 Yes you can.

You taught me this in another thread.

It's really easy.

You just use another word to describe a relationship that while similar is not identical.

That is why we have so many different woirds.

 

I'm fine with legislating a "civil union" for you and your Mom, or other relatives.

But I doubt that civil union law would include ALIMONY.

We need marriage for people willing to commit ot ALIMONY.

that would be gay people, and straight people.

You can enter into a "civil union" with your Mom, and some gays or lesbians can get "married".

No one will think you are gay.

Problem solved.

So sure, I think we should have both civil union and marriage.

Both would apply to straight people and gay people.

Gay people can get married, or get a civil union.

Straight people can get married or get a civil union.

Where's the discrimination?

There isn't any.

 

 Why do you feel a gay person is more deserving of alimony than an old lady?

 

Letting gays and lesbians get married has the same problem. Straight people get married. Marriage is word derived from a religious ceremony between a man and a woman.

What's wrong with using a different word for different type of relationship? There is no shortage of words.

What's wrong with discriminating between things that are different?

We aren't discussing beating the snot out of people or refusing to give them a job. We are discussing, using seperate words to discriminate between seperate things.

 

Why have three words for the colour blue and none for the colour orange?

 

We don't need to call three/four different things by the same name. They can each have their own.

  User Deleted
6/27/11 9:37:27 AM#83

or they can just change the name of the state's function to civil union across the board.

 

every couple gay or straight gets a "civil union" from the state..

 

then its up to the church / synagogue(sp)? / mosque to handle the marriage labeling

 

after all a marriage is the ceremony and thats the part most religious people get angry about..

 

not some document.. so just remove the marriage label and leave that to the religious institute.

  baff

Novice Member

Joined: 5/22/05
Posts: 9470

6/27/11 9:42:18 AM#84

Mainly it's because many people do not and will not respect religions.

They don't recognise the rights of religious people to be different.

 

They get half the picture, they recognise the rights of gay people to be different, but they can't get over their hatred of church types.

They can get over their hate of gays... but religions? No. That's taking tolerance and understanding too far!

 

i find the whole gay debate often gets hijacked but anti religious agendas.

  Ihmotepp

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 10/28/08
Posts: 14557

6/27/11 9:46:54 AM#85
Originally posted by baff
Originally posted by Ihmotepp
Originally posted by baff
Originally posted by Ihmotepp
Originally posted by baff

 

 

 

If I marry a male friend in New York. Everyone will think i am gay. I cannot think of a more open declariton of sexuaitiy than to marry another man in New York city.

How about we don't call things that aren't marriages marriages.

That way there is no need for confusion.

 

We can't legislate your fear of people thinking you are gay.

 

 Yes you can.

You taught me this in another thread.

It's really easy.

You just use another word to describe a relationship that while similar is not identical.

That is why we have so many different woirds.

 

I'm fine with legislating a "civil union" for you and your Mom, or other relatives.

But I doubt that civil union law would include ALIMONY.

We need marriage for people willing to commit ot ALIMONY.

that would be gay people, and straight people.

You can enter into a "civil union" with your Mom, and some gays or lesbians can get "married".

No one will think you are gay.

Problem solved.

So sure, I think we should have both civil union and marriage.

Both would apply to straight people and gay people.

Gay people can get married, or get a civil union.

Straight people can get married or get a civil union.

Where's the discrimination?

There isn't any.

 

 Why do you feel a gay person is more deserving of alimony than an old lady?

 

Letting gays and lesbians get married has the same problem. Straight people get married. Marriage is word deroved from a religious ceremony between a man and a woman.

What's wrong with using a different word for different type of relationship? There is no shortage of words.

What's wrong with discriminating between things that are different?

We aren't discussing beating the shot out of people ot refusing to give them a job. We are discussing, using seperate words to discriminate between seperate things.

 

This is simply incorrect.

Athiests get married all the time, with no religious ceremony.

"Marriage" has two meanings.

Religious, and legal, not just one meaning.

Gay people get married in Churches all the time, in States that do not allow marriage. So they are Religiously married, but not LeGALLY married.

You're pretending "marriage" means only one thing, but it doesn't.

Like hot only applies to a potato coming out of the oven, and not an attractive girl in a bikini. Anyone going to buy that argument, that words can only have ONE meaning? I don't think so.

 

There is RELIGIOUS marriage.

There is LEGAL marriage.

they are not the same, even though both include the world "marriage".

The NY legislation for example, specifically excludes Churches from performing RELIGIOUS marriages for gay people if they don't want to.

No where in the US can a Priest LEGALLY marry anyone.

They can perform a RELIGIOUS ceremony only.

The LEGAL marriage certificate must be obtained from the STATE GOVERNMENT. 

To make a marriage certificate official it must be signed by a NOTARY PUBLIC. 

Many Priests get their Notary Public, FROM THE STATE, so they can sign the license, as well as perform the ceremoney, as a convenience.

But those are two separate things.

 

 

 

 

 

  User Deleted
6/27/11 9:49:26 AM#86

I think it would be better for everybody if the state didn't perform "marriages" anymore

 

everybody got a civil union document from the judge.. and the marriage is handled by your church or w/e

 

nothing would be different except for the title of the document you got at the court house.

 

and no more wrangling over a word.

  Ihmotepp

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 10/28/08
Posts: 14557

6/27/11 9:51:55 AM#87
Originally posted by baff

Mainly it's because many people do not and will not respect religions.

They don't recognise the rights of religious people to be different.

 

They get half the picture, they recognise the rights of gay people to be different, but they can't get over their hatred of church types.

They can get over their hate of gays... but religions? No. That's taking tolerance and understanding too far!

 

i find the whole gay debate often gets hijacked but anti religious agendas.

 

This is incorrect.

You can form a religion, and marry your Mom in that religion, just like Gays get married in Churches where the State does not recognize gay marriage legally.

Taht would be very "different", but it would not be a LEGAL marriage. It would, however, be a RELIGIOUS marriage. A very strange religion to be sure, but you could do it on some States assuming you are both adults.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_regarding_incest#United_States

You're confusing religion, with LAW.

So no one is stopping you from being "different" because of your religion.

They are just saying you can't make everyone else conform with your religious beliefs.

 

  outfctrl

Novice Member

Joined: 11/16/03
Posts: 3630

American by Birth
Biker by choice
Patriot forever

6/27/11 10:05:56 AM#88

All I can say is " Welcome to the fall of Rome".  Another government sponsored of immorality that destroys nations.

  baff

Novice Member

Joined: 5/22/05
Posts: 9470

6/27/11 10:09:42 AM#89

The Germans are coming?

That's the thng about Rome, Germany owns it.

  Ihmotepp

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 10/28/08
Posts: 14557

6/27/11 10:14:51 AM#90
Originally posted by outfctrl

All I can say is " Welcome to the fall of Rome".  Another government sponsored of immorality that destroys nations.

 

I don't see how anyone can argue with this.

Canada is about to fall into anarchy any day now because they have gay marriage.

  C-B-M

Novice Member

Joined: 5/03/11
Posts: 2661

6/27/11 11:50:28 AM#91
Originally posted by Ihmotepp
Originally posted by C-B-M

We have to accept homosexuality?  No, we don't.  I know that's what you guys WANT, which is really what this is all about.  As I stated, there is no actual reason that marriage is necessary -- any perceived (and it's merely perceived) inequity is easily remedied without marriage.  It's really not debatable.  There are LOTS of cohabitating heterosexual couples who aren't constantly railing about how they're being oppressed by society.  In other words, it's merely an issue intended to normalize and mainstream homosexuality.  I'd respect the proponents more if they just said that rather than trying to B.S. everyone like "I'm not allowed to see my gay lover in the hospital!!"

 

ALIMONY.

That is really the only thing you get with MARRIAGE, that you can't get with some other legal recourse.

Wait, this is all about alimony?  OK, then we definitely don't need gay marriage.

See, what was the purpose of alimony?  (This isn't my opinion, BTW.)  Alimony is payment made to the woman because traditionally she was a stay-at-home mother with no source of independent income.  Therefore, when she became divorced, she was screwed.  Not only did she have no income and no way of getting a job, but she generally had custody of children.  That's alimony.

Now, first of all, there are MULTIPLE problems with alimony, but  let's ignore those for now.  With two gay people, they both have equal earning potential as they are either both male or both female.  That instantly eliminates the entire argument for the need for alimony.  Now, they may have children, it is true.  But a court can EASILY -- repeat, EASILY -- remand child support, as they can do with heterosexuals who are not married and have children out of wedlock.

UH OH GAY MARRIAGE IS UNNECESSARY.

  C-B-M

Novice Member

Joined: 5/03/11
Posts: 2661

6/27/11 12:09:21 PM#92
Originally posted by Ihmotepp
Originally posted by outfctrl

All I can say is " Welcome to the fall of Rome".  Another government sponsored of immorality that destroys nations.

 

I don't see how anyone can argue with this.

Canada is about to fall into anarchy any day now because they have gay marriage.

This is like when everyone makes fun of others who are worried about children being sexually active and call them old fogies or prudes.  Then later they're like "oh, by the way, we totally need abortion."

  King_Kumquat

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/15/11
Posts: 532

Seeking Talented Court Jesters.

 
OP  6/27/11 12:29:25 PM#93
Originally posted by Finwe
Originally posted by King_Kumquat
Originally posted by Finwe
Originally posted by King_Kumquat
Originally posted by Finwe
Originally posted by King_Kumquat
Originally posted by Finwe
Originally posted by King_Kumquat

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/06/25/us-gaymarriage-newyork-idUSTRE75N5ZA20110625

About time if you ask me. 

The King would never make the claim: "For liberty and justice for all*." and leave such a huge footnote. What America did to the aboriginal people, slaves, women, and workers pales to the persecution of the LGBT community; based mostly on the time line of it all.

Welcome to the 21st century America.

The King welcomes you, and will bide his reign of total subjugation.

 

To reiterate what Zind said two posts above me. That is one of the most asinine, absurd, and completely ridiculously retarded statements I've ever heard. Native americans were exterminated in large part by genocide. Even before the foundation of the U.S. as a sovereign nation. Their lands were stolen, culture destroyed, people murdered. But...Oh yah. That's soooo what the gay's are going through. Native Americans, slaves. But women and workers? One because their pay is shit, the other because they can't vote? What weird comparisons... But really? Comparing the gay movement to the suffering that many native americans and blacks went through? Fucking really? Are you that much of a jackass to not see such a huge difference? Native americans...Genocide, rape, cultural destruction, land stolen and destroyed. Gays...Cultural intolerance. Slaves. In many cases incapable of acquiring freedom, lifelong indebtment to their master. In some situations mistreatment via physical beatings, rape, and death. Gays...Can't marry. My God...You're a moron. I really hate personally insulting somebody in a fairly civil discussion. But you really compared a group of people that rally together based on their sexual orientation and haven't been culturally accepted, to groups of people that have gone through horrible atrocities to in some situations, themselves and their family, or to expand to their entire culture. You're a fucking moron. None of my family has native american ancestry, or to indentured servants nor slaves. But to me...Even me...That's damn offensive. P.S. Welcome to the twenty first century? Ancient aboriginals, greeks, romans, gauls, all had cases of same sex sodomy in their culture? How is this anyway new?

Look here you fucking case work file proof of the need for abortion.

Did I strike a nerve? Seems so. This shall be fun. I'll have to count how many ad hominems and straw men you pull out to make this so obviously astute argument.

 

You hypocrite who probably uses God's name in vain constantly as you flail violently at your inadequate sized penis

A phallic ad hominem? Whoaaaaaaa...I haven't even seen one of those since I stopped talking to closeted homosexual frat boys. But I applaud you for a chuckle. It's amusing.

And I've never used God's name in vain, it always has a point. Though I do not figure how this has any pertinence.

to try and reason why you loathe your pathetic self and to justify your inequated hate towards those you don't understand.

Who do I hate exactly? Well except myself obviously, since you said so.

Although I personally think anyone who is so ridiculously close minded to be inable to accept someone elses beliefs and so immaturely and violently attacks them via a messageboard, whilst screaming and hammering at the keyboard so aggressively that the whole apartment complex is wondering if an isolated earthquake is happening.

Seems you're the self hating one.

Discrimination, supression of rights, and demonizing of others is probably the only fucking grasp of equality you're even half way aware of.

Goosfrabah...Goosfrabah. You're going to have an aneurism if you do not calm down.

Does butt sex always make you this angry?

Is marriage a part of the American culture? Is the right to marriage equal to people in this land? No. The answer to both is not. Gays and lesbians, who are Americans, many great Christians-

The right to marriage should be left to the religious institutions discretion. If they decide to marry homosexuals, they're abominable hypocrites who wouldn't know the verses from the paper they snort their cocaine through.

And how exactly can homosexuals be great christians when they are a complete and utter abomination in the eyes of their God throughout many scriptures saying they will never enter into the Kingdom of God, and are deserved to be executed?

& more so than you'll ever be,

More so what? A "great christian". Uhh..Well...Considering i'm not a Christian...

are denied a basic human right on their native soil. So your first ramble decimated, thanks for playing. But the King isn't done yet.

Marriage is not a basic human right. Sorry.

And my first ramble decimated? Really? Did you even read my post? At all? Half of your rant is some freakish obsession about my dick, the other half, attempting to personally attack me with a tinge of some angry tirade thrown in.

Next... Have gays been raped by straight people? Happens a lot in Texas as a way to show'em. Have they been murdered? Have they been forced to commit suicide? Yes. Have you not paid attention to the things happneing around you in the year 2011? No. You're one of those people who is purpousfully ignorant. And I hope you fucking die.

Lol...Sorry. Just how angry you are kind of amuses me, "YOU DON"T AGREE WITH ME? I HOPE YOU FUCKING DIE!". It's like argueing with a methed out 16 year old on her people.

And of course hate crimes have happened. All kinds of hate crimes. Black on white. White on black. Homosexuals being raped by straight people. Straight people being raped by homosexuals. Oh wow...Individuals attacking each other...Oh the horror. Obviously this is a weak comparison to government genocide. Individuals comitting crimes...Damn you're dense.

And no one is forced to commit suicide. If you commit suicide, chances are, you're a weak willed excuse for a human being. "Oh noes...I got bullied. I'm gonna kill myself."

No one has any intestinal fortitude anymore. But hey...suicide is just another term for natural selection.

Still if you're ass enough to read this through.

Your offended because you're stupid.

Ad hominem alert...Ring the alarm!

I stand by my statements and I'm willing to have you check them against their equals. Homosexuality isn't something that's "okay" to have a bias against. The Native Americans, the Blacks, women, and workers know what it's like to have people who mis-read the bible and twists God's word to justify their own bigotry first hand. 

Having a bias towards something equal to, Mass murder.

Yep. Definitely see the comparison. Your logic is infallible!

We should most definitely create laws where you will be executed if you are biased.

Then soon after, all the nations of the world will send off all their nuclear bombs to cause mass extinction, because we've all comitted the same crime.

Please...Go see a neurologist.

But the twentith century showed progress on their struggles.

Thus, why I'm excited to see that there are people fighting against hate in the 21st century. That footnote I was talking about wasn't a direct comparison, but then again you're a well proved idiot. It was stating oversight for leaving the LGBT community out the last century.

And the ad hominem alarm is sound again!

Not a direction comparison? Really? Oh yes...You're right. In fact you said it pales to the persecution of the LGBT community.

I'm happy to do my part, and I'd be willing to make you choke on your own fucking teeth if it meant that I could spare someone who has a different sexuial orientation other than my own any sort of petty judgement an internet fuckwit like you.

The ridiculously high amounts of hypocrisy and empty threats of violence amuse me. Shows who the truly close minded one is, doesn't it? 

You're going to go to hell a hateful little child molester with a hard drive filled with gay lolicon. Because it's always your type who do the true evils in this world.

My type? What's my type?

Or do you mean the type that is so intolerant of other peoples idea's that they make threats of violence, obsessive tirades about someones supposed lack of penal side, fantasizes about people who disagree that they die?

Now quit hating,

Only hate that is so obviously shown is every word that comes out of your mouth towards people who do not share your ideals.

leave your tiny penis alone,

Obsessing about my penis again? Really?

and please shut your fucking mouth before you try and talk with adults again.

I'm conversing with adults? Are you sure about that? I need documentation. Because that's impossible.

You're terrible at debate,

Sorry not everyone can go off on obsessive tirades about peoples penises like you. I will admit, if that is what encompasses debate, you are the master.

and probably every thing else in life too. Get a job.

Wny? Liberals make it so much more appealing to be unemployed.

It'll fix that desire you have to spout off like an uneducated halfwit in the productive hours of the day.

Sorry I have not done enough psychadelic drugs to completely blur the lines of reality and ones own distorted illusion yet.

Share?

No use of your own words?

Would that be your attempt at conceding my debate?

Or are you unable to actually be able to read the difference between bold, and unbold.

It's a pretty scathing difference...

There's no debate there. You made a textuial mess rather than try to construct any sort of argument to stand on its own merit. At worst you look like an idiot, at best it's sad trolling.

You're right. There is no debate. Because I completely annihilated every single point you made, and you knowing defeat but being too much of a dishonorable coward, you plead an inability to comprehend well punctuated english.

It's ok to lose. I'm sure this isn't the first time you've been made an ass of, nor the last.

But hey, maybe if you try really hard at keeping an endless stream of ad hominems coming and anytime you get made a fool of you pull out the always faithful, "You're a moron. I win" card, you'll get somewhere!...

Sorry, I can't lie. No...You'll still be made an ass out of by anyone and everyone that has an IQ higher than an idaho spud.

Feel free anytime to pick a debate with me again, and I will more than happy be willing to humiliate you again.

Humilate? Hardly. Form a proper paragraph with some logic and we'll talk. Until then you're just an ignorant bigot.


Will develop an original MMORPG title for money.

  King_Kumquat

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/15/11
Posts: 532

Seeking Talented Court Jesters.

 
OP  6/27/11 12:30:24 PM#94
Originally posted by outfctrl

All I can say is " Welcome to the fall of Rome".  Another government sponsored of immorality that destroys nations.

I think the irony here is that you have the gayest post I've ever seen. LoL Biker..


Will develop an original MMORPG title for money.

  daarco

Novice Member

Joined: 12/19/06
Posts: 4509

I have Darkfall now!
Caution: Game May Cause Care Bears To Populate Forums
__________________

6/27/11 12:49:53 PM#95

"If you dont like gay marriage, blame the straight people. They are the ones that who keep having gay babies."

There are only people, why think that some people should not marriage, and some should! Make no sense to me.

Let poor souls that want to marraige do it. They will regret it later as everyone else have done for thousands of years : )

  Ihmotepp

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 10/28/08
Posts: 14557

6/27/11 1:02:48 PM#96
Originally posted by C-B-M
Originally posted by Ihmotepp
Originally posted by C-B-M

We have to accept homosexuality?  No, we don't.  I know that's what you guys WANT, which is really what this is all about.  As I stated, there is no actual reason that marriage is necessary -- any perceived (and it's merely perceived) inequity is easily remedied without marriage.  It's really not debatable.  There are LOTS of cohabitating heterosexual couples who aren't constantly railing about how they're being oppressed by society.  In other words, it's merely an issue intended to normalize and mainstream homosexuality.  I'd respect the proponents more if they just said that rather than trying to B.S. everyone like "I'm not allowed to see my gay lover in the hospital!!"

 

ALIMONY.

That is really the only thing you get with MARRIAGE, that you can't get with some other legal recourse.

Wait, this is all about alimony?  OK, then we definitely don't need gay marriage.

See, what was the purpose of alimony?  (This isn't my opinion, BTW.)  Alimony is payment made to the woman because traditionally she was a stay-at-home mother with no source of independent income.  Therefore, when she became divorced, she was screwed.  Not only did she have no income and no way of getting a job, but she generally had custody of children.  That's alimony.

Now, first of all, there are MULTIPLE problems with alimony, but  let's ignore those for now.  With two gay people, they both have equal earning potential as they are either both male or both female.  That instantly eliminates the entire argument for the need for alimony.  Now, they may have children, it is true.  But a court can EASILY -- repeat, EASILY -- remand child support, as they can do with heterosexuals who are not married and have children out of wedlock.

UH OH GAY MARRIAGE IS UNNECESSARY.

 

Child support =/= alimony.

Child support is for supporting children.

Alimony is not.

The "stay at home Mom" gets child support if she has custody fo the children.

Alimony has nothing to do with children.

Alimony is routinley awarded to MEN as well as women.

It is based on income, not gender. 

Alimony is based on one person being supported by the other, adn therefore giving up job experience. It is really one of the only things that distinguishes being married from not being married.

If you buy a house together, you can split it, married or not married.

If you want to leave property to someone, you can write a will, married or not married.

If you have children, the court will award child support and custody, married or not married.

If you are married you can get Alimony, if you are not married, you cannot.

 

Are you arguing for getting rid of all Alimony as a matter of law?

If you do that, there is no reason to get married, except for the religious ceremony.

 

  C-B-M

Novice Member

Joined: 5/03/11
Posts: 2661

6/27/11 1:29:06 PM#97
Originally posted by Ihmotepp

 

Child support =/= alimony.

...

Are you arguing for getting rid of all Alimony as a matter of law?

If you do that, there is no reason to get married, except for the religious ceremony.

I'm quite aware that child support isn't alimony.  As I stated, that was in regards to any argument that a gay couple could have adopted children.  And, as I stated and you affirmed, lots of heterosexual couples also are together -- and many times for prolonged periods -- without getting married and do not suffer from not having alimony.  (Or, perhaps more precisely, are not felt to require it by anyone.)

You're right that alimony is used for income differences and is granted to both men and women.  But the point remains that it is in place for the same reasons.  One partner is at home, not working for possibly up to two decades, and has little to no earning potential.  Now, as I stated both above and in my prior post, this doesn't necessarily have anything to do with children because you can get alimony when you have NO kids.  This has to do with a) the traditional view of the female as home-maker and b) the view of the man as the provider.  Now, in these days, that role is sometimes reversed, but clearly there's a dependence on that view of the "home/family" unit.  I say that because, like I said, you can be heterosexual and cohabitate all you want and not get alimony.

Now, regardless of whatever proceeds, I want to point out also that, as with all other people who argue about marriage, eventually it becomes apparent that marriage is merely a vehicle to benefits in your eyes.  In other words, you don't view the state of being married as being worth anything in and of itself.  That's the difference between you guys and us.

  Ihmotepp

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 10/28/08
Posts: 14557

6/27/11 2:19:31 PM#98
Originally posted by C-B-M
Originally posted by Ihmotepp

 

Child support =/= alimony.

...

Are you arguing for getting rid of all Alimony as a matter of law?

If you do that, there is no reason to get married, except for the religious ceremony.

I'm quite aware that child support isn't alimony.  As I stated, that was in regards to any argument that a gay couple could have adopted children.  And, as I stated and you affirmed, lots of heterosexual couples also are together -- and many times for prolonged periods -- without getting married and do not suffer from not having alimony.  (Or, perhaps more precisely, are not felt to require it by anyone.)

You're right that alimony is used for income differences and is granted to both men and women.  But the point remains that it is in place for the same reasons.  One partner is at home, not working for possibly up to two decades, and has little to no earning potential.  Now, as I stated both above and in my prior post, this doesn't necessarily have anything to do with children because you can get alimony when you have NO kids.  This has to do with a) the traditional view of the female as home-maker and b) the view of the man as the provider.  Now, in these days, that role is sometimes reversed, but clearly there's a dependence on that view of the "home/family" unit.  I say that because, like I said, you can be heterosexual and cohabitate all you want and not get alimony.

Now, regardless of whatever proceeds, I want to point out also that, as with all other people who argue about marriage, eventually it becomes apparent that marriage is merely a vehicle to benefits in your eyes.  In other words, you don't view the state of being married as being worth anything in and of itself.  That's the difference between you guys and us.

 

Um, no.

We are discussing the LEGAL aspects of marriage.

That has nothing to do with the religious aspects, the "value" you personally place on marriage.

That cannot be legislated.

Congress cannot make legislation that will make you value your wife or husband, or your marriage.

If Congress cannot legislate it, then what you do is not my concern, and vice a versa.

You should respect your parents.

Congress cannot legislate that.

We are talking about what should be LEGAL and what should not be LEGAL.

you can respect marriage all you want, wheter the State mandates any LEGAL ramifications for marriage or not.

As I stated, right now the STATE involvement of marriage, is enforcing ALIMONY.

Assests can be divided, married or not.

you can leave property to someone in a will, married or not.

You can get child custody, child support, married or not.

But you can only get ALIMONY, that is the State will FORCE you to pay someone or put you in jail, if you are married.

Are you saying the State should put you in jail if you don't respect "marriage"?

You want the State to determine what you should respect, and then give people jail terms if they don't believe you're "respectful" towards something?

Let's say the State no longer recognizes "marriage".

there is nothing to stop you from respecting the institution of marriage, from going to your church and getting married, etc., etc.

It would only mean you could not force someone to LEGALLY pay you alimony.

That's it.

 

Gay people get married all the time in states that do not recognize LEGAL gay marriage.

They go to their church and get married anyway, because they respect the idea of "marriage".

The only thing they are missing out on is a Court date when they divorce, and paying alimony.

  C-B-M

Novice Member

Joined: 5/03/11
Posts: 2661

6/27/11 2:37:33 PM#99

I never said that anyone could (or should) legislate a "value" for marriage.  I'm merely noting correctly that you and homosexuals don't actually care about marriage, other than for the purposes of making homosexuality seem normal.  It's merely a vehicle for that intent.

Legally speaking, as I've pointed out, there's no need for gay marriage as any legal benefit is easily addressed outside of marriage and/or not important (i.e., if cohabitating heterosexuals have no impact then there can be no impact to cohabitating homosexuals, by definition).

  baff

Novice Member

Joined: 5/22/05
Posts: 9470

6/27/11 4:23:47 PM#100
Originally posted by C-B-M

I never said that anyone could (or should) legislate a "value" for marriage.  I'm merely noting correctly that you and homosexuals don't actually care about marriage, other than for the purposes of making homosexuality seem normal.  It's merely a vehicle for that intent.

 

I odn't think I could have put it more eloquently than this.

That's sort of why I feel religious types have been held hostage although I would concede that equally for many of them, the only reason they object to gay marriage is that they don't want to see homosexuality normalised.

I don't think I do either for that matter. I am quite comfortable with it as a perversion.

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