Damn forgot to quote... ah well it was in response to Oakthornn's message, edited the message, but not after posting this one :P

Shouldve posted through the forum and not the quick response thingy :P

Since when does Star Wars ip have dungeons or even a group finder.

Originally posted by SaintViktor

Since when does Star Wars ip have dungeons or even a group finder.

That's not the point and you know it. The Warcraft RTS games didn't have group finder either...

It's an mmorpg and it's expected to come with certain features.

Originally posted by SaintViktor

Since when does Star Wars ip have dungeons or even a group finder.

Replace the term "dungeons" with "bases" or "Fortifications"... as for group finder, do you really find it that hard to believe that there is a clever network available to assist when trying to assemble a team for a particular task or job?

This fits the IP perfectly, even if they choose not to put it in the game

Originally posted by SaintViktor

Since when does Star Wars ip have dungeons or even a group finder.

 Since always.

I have always had to call, text, IM, etc friends to get together to do tradtional pnp Star Wars rpg'ing. We then wait until the decided upon time to get together to play. This is a queue.

The real world offers many forms of communication, social organizations and other ways for a populace to arrange social meetings and events. Mmo's traditionally offer very few. It is very recent that we are seeing the developement of in world social organizers and queue's are too overly simple and take too much control away from the players. Players should drive social organization yet devs choose to handle too much of it thereby destroying the social element.

Devs have simply gone in the wrong direction. They have pandered to the lazy with queue's and also driven off in the wrong direction attaching real world social mechanics like facebook and twitter than perhaps assist with organizing people outside the game but does little to evolve in game social structure.

So much thought has gone into developing visuals, sounds and realistic environments to set a social scene but near total ignorance on core, fundamental human social mechanics we take for granted today. The entire evolution of human kind can be summarized with the advancement of communicating information yet mmo's provide the most limited and clunky toolsets for it ... and we get shortcut fixes like queue's created because of this lack of thought.

Originally posted by morritz

Originally posted by SaintViktor

Since when does Star Wars ip have dungeons or even a group finder.

Replace the term "dungeons" with "bases" or "Fortifications"... as for group finder, do you really find it that hard to believe that there is a clever network available to assist when trying to assemble a team for a particular task or job?

This fits the IP perfectly, even if they choose not to put it in the game

 It doesn't fit the ip whatsoever but hey whatever makes some happy I guess.

Originally posted by SaintViktor

Originally posted by morritz

Originally posted by SaintViktor

Since when does Star Wars ip have dungeons or even a group finder.

Replace the term "dungeons" with "bases" or "Fortifications"... as for group finder, do you really find it that hard to believe that there is a clever network available to assist when trying to assemble a team for a particular task or job?

This fits the IP perfectly, even if they choose not to put it in the game

 It doesn't fit the ip whatsoever but hey whatever makes some happy I guess.

A lot of blabla. Personally it'd make me happy if people would come up with more logical arguments that had more common sense in them or just shut up and move on to MMO's that they like and stick there, but hey, we can't have it all.

As for the argument, since when can people die and be resurrected every time in LotR or SW or AoC IP? Since when could the characters be healed fully even during combat? Since when could they hop from one place in the world in a few seconds to whole countries further like you can in MMO's?

An IP is what it is, a game is a game. God forbid that a game or MMO uses game features and mechanics

Good news, and a couple of steps in the right direction in my opinion.

Whatever it takes to make MMORPGs feel more like worlds, and less like queue hubs, is a great thing.

Two thumbs up.

I agree completely with Gregg on this.

And as for those crying about it, let me just remind you of the scores of FAILING games out there right now that include these features.

How about we break the mold??

Everything I read and hear suggests to me that Bioware "gets it", and is making one Hell of a game. Yeah, it might be similar in some ways to other games, but it is DIFFERENT in many ways as well.

As Bruce Lee said, "keep what works, throw the rest away".

Speaking on the Dungeon Finder, I find that it is tool for people who dont care for the games content in-between. Take for instance that old game WoW. Yea, I hate that word now too...But anyway,, in WoW  once you make 15 or 17 the dungeon finder tool is open because the first dungeon is available.

You then queue and run a dungeon and level. You queue up again, run the dungeon and level. You keep following that routine and as you reach new levels other dungeons open up with the exception of the ones that force you to do a quest chain first to unlock them. Even then its just a few. So eventually you will be following that routine and make level cap before you know it. Then you look back and say..."Gee. I got to the point I can run raids and start doing endgame, but what did I miss?"

I fell in that trap. Fortunately when they introduced the Dungeon finder I was already level 70 so I seen most of everything before that level. But between 70 and level cap I noticed I missed allot of content...and some fun content. 

I begin to ask a question to myself, why did the developer want to set a system up that allowed players to pretty much skip 75% of the content? For crying out loud they spent countless days and nights to develope an expansive continent that rarely got walked on.

I would be one upset employee if I spent long hours building a particular zone to find out one of my co-workers developed a system that would allow players to indirectly out level the zone. You cant get feed back if people are not playing in the content you provided for them. I feel sorry for those folks.

What happened to the good O'games that forced you to at least walk through almost every zone to get to your objective? What happned to the sense of adventure and the challenge of the adventure to get to your objective?

I personally believe that the mmorpg community for the most part and the developers in some cases has made the genre a competition and has forgotten its not about "I got here before you and have all the pretties", but about, "Wow! It took me awhile to get here and got into some tight spots, but it felt like an adventure and feels like I accomplished something."

Hopefully SWTOR will not have the dungeon finder and has made the game challenging and fun.

I'd love to see both a game and a movie that are more realistic -

You want to cross continents in a boat?

Sit in front of your computer screen or in the movie theatre for months. Months. Doing nothing but trying to not get scurvy.

Get injured in combat? Sit in front of your computer screen or in the movie theatre for weeks doing nothing but watching your character sleep and p*ss him/herself.

Games are suppose to be fun. Leave all that "not realistic" and "doesn't fit the IP" stuff at the door please.

Originally posted by heerobya

I'd love to see both a game and a movie that are more realistic -

You want to cross continents in a boat?

Sit in front of your computer screen or in the movie theatre for months. Months. Doing nothing but trying to not get scurvy.

Get injured in combat? Sit in front of your computer screen or in the movie theatre for weeks doing nothing but watching your character sleep and p*ss him/herself.

Games are suppose to be fun. Leave all that "not realistic" and "doesn't fit the IP" stuff at the door please.

 Sorry, man....but that's the classic excuse used by the instant gratification generation for not wanting to have to put any effort into anything.

Your slippery slope about realism does nothing to convice me that a bit of authenticity in a RPG is a bad thing.

Console games are there for those who want a quick, fun game fix. That's not what RPGs were ever about. They were about immersion and getting whisked away to another world for a while. Suspension of disbelief, and all that good stuff.

Artificial game mechanics designed to suit ADD "gimme gimme" kiddies who can't be bothered to spell the word "you" don't belong in RPGs.

Period.

all these people crying about travelling is rather funny, before wow's dungeon finder 2-3 people would actually do the travel,what ever the minimum for a warlocks portal was, and then they would summon the rest in so the entire "we use to travel" argument is rubbish.

 The dungeon finder and the fact it pulled from other servers was awesome. From my experince the ones that complain about this system are the ones that got there thrills from refuseing to help anyone whos gear score was less then (enter what ever the highest possible gears score was here) and while refusing the idiots say things like " I got mine" totally ignoreing the FACT that they did NOT get it solo, they had to have a group and they more then likely spammed lfg to get said group but, now others need help the same way they did and they want to act all self important.

 I am all for the guy that put in more work having the better gear or at least getting it faster but, I think that simular to the twink solution in wow there needs to be a system in place that checks the players gear when they que for a bg style match and matchs them with people of simular gear. This system would also need to include the inablity to change gear after you enter to keep jerks from putting on lower end gear to get in and putting on the higher end gear once they are in.This would keep the guy that has no life, has all the gear 3 days after it is released, from being in the BG with guys that actually do something other then sit in front of there pc all day. 

 What killed world pvp was jerks in there top end arean gear going out and hammering people that did not have the same gear so people stopped flagging for pvp when running around the world, you can say that people need to work harder for it and that is basically true but, not giving them the chance to do the work is rather like the high school bully picking on people just because he can. 

 There should ALWAYS be a method for the casual player to eventually get the same gear, I am totally for the progresion to be slower for the casual gamer but, wow completly eliminates the casual gamer getting anywhere near the high end gear in anything shorter then 2-3 years at 25 marks a day and those 25 only if you win the match which when facing a huge group that has the best of the best gear is often rather like repeatedly slamming your head in a wall.

 I think a good game needs to have both pve and pvp because there are tons of people on both sides but, devlopers need to start adding methods of letting people that actually have to work or go to school get the same gear as the burrito chugging,energy drink inhaleing guy living in his parents basement, to busy getting gear to bother getting a job can get even if getting it slower.

There is no place for 100% realisim in a mmo, it is a game not reality, you want reality there are a great many awesome simulators out there for ya, go play them.

Arenas are fine but they need to be relegated to a mini game status that awards strictly cosmetic prizes (ie titles, color schemes, pets, etc). Things get all stupid when E-Sport mentality takes over an rpg.

Dungeon Finder tool is fine but it needs to stay on the same server. Its so random who you meet every time, its too easy for people to act without consequence.

I guess for a story driven MMO like TOR, both features would be odd and not really ftting. I always hated Arena PVP for the reasons mentioned in the article.

In a not so story based MMO, I enjoy a Dungeon Finder, because otherwise it REALLY can be a hassle these days to find a group. But in the story heavy game which is TOR I think it would be strange to be tossed with random people just because of some dungeon finder. Anything that makes people talk is generally good.

Originally posted by Elikal

I guess for a story driven MMO like TOR, both features would be odd and not really ftting. I always hated Arena PVP for the reasons mentioned in the article.

In a not so story based MMO, I enjoy a Dungeon Finder, because otherwise it REALLY can be a hassle these days to find a group. But in the story heavy game which is TOR I think it would be strange to be tossed with random people just because of some dungeon finder. Anything that makes people talk is generally good.

I agree. I don't like DF either but it certainly makes things easier. Someone on some forums had a great idea for this matter: why not have a check box in your quest log after each group quest. You check the box, you're now looking for a group for that quest. When enough players have checked the box for the same quest, your group is formed but no teleportation will happen.

This kind of tool would be awesome since it only helps to find the group, nothing more.

Originally posted by Roccprofit

There is no place for 100% realisim in a mmo, it is a game not reality, you want reality there are a great many awesome simulators out there for ya, go play them.

hmmm, and why can't a game incorporate more reasonable "reality" and then one can say to you "this game has more reasonable reality, if you want a game to play more like a "game" then there are plenty of those out there.

Just a thought.

Not everything has to be one thing or another. sometimes a bit of outside the box thinking or following a different path is ok too. Otherwise we all get the same thing and it all seems very homogenized or even pasteurized for that matter.

but I'm sure you must know that on some level.

"What could be wrong with such a wonderful feature you ask? Take out the main reason for people to talk to one another in the game and you end up with a mere online RPG. "

How can "LF1M TOR", "Tank LFG DaM" or whatever be called talk? Getting rid of LFG chat is a good thing. It leaves the channels free for general chat, party chat and guild chat. LFG spam is not the main reason for players to talk to one another. 

Originally posted by Falcomith

Speaking on the Dungeon Finder, I find that it is tool for people who dont care for the games content in-between. Take for instance that old game WoW. Yea, I hate that word now too...But anyway,, in WoW  once you make 15 or 17 the dungeon finder tool is open because the first dungeon is available.

You then queue and run a dungeon and level. You queue up again, run the dungeon and level. You keep following that routine and as you reach new levels other dungeons open up with the exception of the ones that force you to do a quest chain first to unlock them. Even then its just a few. So eventually you will be following that routine and make level cap before you know it. Then you look back and say..."Gee. I got to the point I can run raids and start doing endgame, but what did I miss?"

I fell in that trap. Fortunately when they introduced the Dungeon finder I was already level 70 so I seen most of everything before that level. But between 70 and level cap I noticed I missed allot of content...and some fun content. 

I begin to ask a question to myself, why did the developer want to set a system up that allowed players to pretty much skip 75% of the content? For crying out loud they spent countless days and nights to develope an expansive continent that rarely got walked on.

I would be one upset employee if I spent long hours building a particular zone to find out one of my co-workers developed a system that would allow players to indirectly out level the zone. You cant get feed back if people are not playing in the content you provided for them. I feel sorry for those folks.

What happened to the good O'games that forced you to at least walk through almost every zone to get to your objective? What happned to the sense of adventure and the challenge of the adventure to get to your objective?

I personally believe that the mmorpg community for the most part and the developers in some cases has made the genre a competition and has forgotten its not about "I got here before you and have all the pretties", but about, "Wow! It took me awhile to get here and got into some tight spots, but it felt like an adventure and feels like I accomplished something."

Hopefully SWTOR will not have the dungeon finder and has made the game challenging and fun.

 

 There's no reason SWTOR can't have both. I think you should at least need to complete some objective to open up a dungeon for queuing, posibly even to go to the entrance (after which you are free to do other things while you are queued). One the dungeon is unlocked though it should be as is with teleport feature. That way you need to complete the story line and background to dungeons, plus you can run them multiple times if you like. I'mn confident SWTOR will do this since it is so much story driven.

Dungeon and Arena finders kill the imersion of a game...that's certainly the effect they had in WoW. TOR will be much better for this as it forces people to interact socially with each other in the Star Wars universe. Yes there will be the WoW guys who have no social skills...but it is always one of the pleasent aspects of a MMORPG on release how immersive the players into the world can be. All to quickly the magic of the MMO genre is lost by Dungeon Finders.