Originally posted by Kain_Dale

Originally posted by zeowyrm

Originally posted by Kain_Dale

Originally posted by Mimzel

So give us a list of successful F2P MMORPGs?

 

Thank you.

 

Without spending a buck  . . .

Of course you have to spend money.  Game wouldn't be very successful if it wasn't making a profit now would it.  Now, give a proper answer.

Your missing the point.  If you want to be competetive pvp or pve or what not in free to play model.. you gotta bring your wallet out and make sure its THICK!

  If you just wanna have fun and relax, have patience and such.. thats different story.

No, you're missing the point.  To be successful, an MMO needs to be making a profit.  

Originally posted by zeowyrm

 

No, you're missing the point.  To be successful, an MMO needs to be making a profit.  

I think it's safe to assume a F2P that offers more for free in the long run will be more likely to be successful, as players will trust the company enough to spend money.

Yeah that's totally illegal, go sue them! Let us know how that goes... 

Originally posted by zeowyrm

Originally posted by Kain_Dale

Originally posted by zeowyrm

Originally posted by Kain_Dale

Originally posted by Mimzel

So give us a list of successful F2P MMORPGs?

 

Thank you.

 

Without spending a buck  . . .

Of course you have to spend money.  Game wouldn't be very successful if it wasn't making a profit now would it.  Now, give a proper answer.

Your missing the point.  If you want to be competetive pvp or pve or what not in free to play model.. you gotta bring your wallet out and make sure its THICK!

  If you just wanna have fun and relax, have patience and such.. thats different story.

No, you're missing the point.  To be successful, an MMO needs to be making a profit.  

1.Player 1- I'm gonna spend 20 bucks... WOW I'm powerful.. i think I can kill anyone!

2.Player 2- Went and pk Player 1 and pwn

3.Player 1- WTF!  Damn I need more stuff from cash shop to pwn Player 2.

Repeat from 1 to 3 everytime = Unlimit spending

Ridiclous!

Those f2p company profits off those "idiot rich people".

Subscription games = most fair MMORPG games for everyone.

Edit: I know couple people that spend thousands a month on f2p model.

15$ a month is way cheaper than that and much fair.

Originally posted by Kooshdin

Originally posted by Creslin321

OP there is a flaw with your reasoning.  You list a bunch of games that went P2P and basically failed.  You then conclude that P2P is a poor model.

But what you fail to mention is that the most popular MMORPG, WoW, is also P2P!  How can P2P be a failed business model when the most popular MMORPG game is P2P and is absolutely dominating the market?

If there's any reason why other P2P games fail, it's just that they can't compete with WoW.

 

can you list any others but world of warcraft  who didnt be classed as a fail game? World of warcraft was in fact the mmo that changed the whole industry, it was in a class of its own. What is very startling though is that if you are a member of the public now and you go into a pc store, you can see that world of warcraft cataclysm is pretty much everywhere. Its a wonder that people who choose to buy this also buy the other expansions as well as the original game too. In my opinion world of warcraft has failed badly in this area in that with an expansion for every other pay to play game in the past, you got the expansion along with all previous expansions and original game too for the expansion price. With world of warcraft you could quite easily just buy ythe cataclysym and go home and find youve gotto buy a heap more wow games before you can play cataclysm game. To me this is one area where world of warcraft fails compared to its past games like everquest 2 etc.

For some reason world of warcaft has done well for a pay to play model game even in the shadow of what ive said just previously. World of Watrcraft is like the old games like everquest 2 , everquest, planetside, star wars galaxies and other games. The pay to play model worked for world of warcraft and these games at least for a while lol

 

What can you list me as being a game that has done well just like world of warcraft without massive issues that is pay to play ?

there cant be many !

Lego universe fai, rift fail, fallen earth fail, vanguard fail, tabual rasa fail, apb fail, age of conan fail, warhammer fail. final fantasy 14 fail. That was what wasdescribed about these games and usually in the first month or two ! All these games have had issues. These pay to play games ll followed simillar paths as each other. Go figure why world of warcrat was different . Maybe its just the player base itself in the pay to play model games maybe they have changed ever sinse world of warcraft ? maybe a new age of players are dominant in our pay to play mmo games ?

The majority of those games failed due to internal development issues and quality when released, not their payment model. To argue if they would have been successful had they been a free-2-play model is a moot point and one that isn't debatable.

This is like saying subscription based TV should be illegal, because there was nothing on last saturday night.

Originally posted by Malickie

This is like saying subscription based TV should be illegal, because there was nothing on last saturday night.

lol

Originally posted by Kooshdin

I was wondering, there is SWTOR coming out soon and it is another pay to play model. For the last few years, basically any pay to play mmo has diminshed in player base and mmo experience after the first month. This means mmo companies that use the pay to play model are in fact promoting a failed category of mmo game because it has been seen that most of the mmo pay to play games have seemed like a massive failure after the first month of play .

Take age of conan, final fantasy 14, rift, All points bulletin as ive played those games. Each one of those games forced players to pay for the game plus keep paying each month when the game pretty much diminishes in player base after the first month. Every one of these games failed pretty much the same way as each other. People played from beta, first month kicks in, people starting abusing the chat for a month compalining about its faults, then the forums get ramsacked and people post why they leaving etc and then also post that the servers are lowering in population. Causing chaos and nothing but problems for the game.

These games did not work out as they should because the pay to play model doesnt work for mmos ! For mmo companies to keep forcing its customers to pay for a mmo then pay monthly subscription as well, when the game will 8/10 times will fail after the first month ? Surely this is an illegal method for mmo gaming when its been proven for the last few years that the pay to play model does not benefit the long term mmo user !

 

The mmo buyer buys the mmo for the long run not the short run and for every one of the long term users, they ae forced to pay £35-£50 upfront on hype when the model used for the games, will most surely fail for the players ? I mean look at rift. I joined it fom the 7 day headstart and becuase of the pay to play model , im getting a certain type of experience from the gamers themselves due to the pay to play models failure at working. It should be illegal for mmos to continue using this model to make mmos, because most of the mmos that have come out in the last few years have all pretty much been classed as a fail game After the first month !!!!

 

Is there nobody in the mmo world willing to stand up for the player base and force companies to take a different payment model, so that the mmo games we are all buying dont fail after the first month ? I mean i can pay £35 for call of duty modern warfare, or assassins creed, and for those games i can continue playing them at least as a single player game after the first month ? Why should gamers be tricked by the mmo industry into a game that uses pay to play model when it totally fails to work after the first month for most mmos ? Im sure game developers are aware of the fact there player base will greatly diminish after the first month because of the pay to play model !!!

 

If there is trading standards for buying stuff in the real world, is there not some company that deals with the legality of mmo payment models ? Right now millions of gullible gamers keep paying for a fresh mmo experience only to find massive problems within the first month in game and on the forums. Game companies know this is happening but avoid dealing with the issue . This is wrong, nobody a few months from now should be fooled by whats going to happen with SWTOR ! Its going to follow the same route as all the games i listed above and im about 85% sure that this is going to be true because of the pay to play model. everyone is just hoooknig on to the hype that bioware are forcing you to read on there game updates section. It doesnt matter how many professions they show you or how many cool things there is to do, because as soon as you in game and played uit for first month, very simillar things to what just happened in rift is going to happen for swtor- pretty much guaranteed . Am i right ? Its just the hype of something special that keeps you paying up front for a new game and i knpow all those who dont want a simillar type of experience as you got from rift or apb etc, want this to be true of swtor ?

 

It is true that SWTOR will fail because of the proof of the pay to play model ! its illegal right to keep promoting this model to its customerds when it doesnt actually work most of the time for new mmos ? The truth is your going to pay £35-£50 for SWTOR and all youll get is about one month of decent play before hell kicsk in.

 

You dont get this with the guild wars model or the perfect world international model or now new forsaken world model. These games dont play the same way as pay to play ! In my experience free to play and pay for game and no monthly sub but a shop, these all work mostly good for the mmo gaming experience for each game. It is not the same one bit for pay to play !!

 

 

 

***Illegal model for mmos based on past results.

Pay to play model - Pay up front, pay monthly to keep playing                                                                                                        Result : most times the game diminishes in mmo standads after first month causing problems for loyal gamers to the game

 

***Legal models for mmo games that prove that the games are actually working as mmos should.

Free to play model..You can play forever for free, and also buy stuff from a shop in game with real cahs to improve gameplay Result : Works very well, communities last but developers lose out from the initial cash burst from buying the game causing us to get half hearted ftp mmo games mostly.

Pay up front, no monthly sub, shop in game for certian items and pay for expansions model Result: Works as intended, player base continues after first month, games are good quality at outset due to instant cash boosh from gamers paying for the initial download of game.

 

 

Is this not important ? I mean soon SWTOR will be out and all you sucked in by the game companies hype will pay up front and will most possibly be unsubbing after the first month when the game gets ruined by negativity on forums and ingame players spoiling the game in chat. Nobody likes the pay to play model its also illegal isnt it if the game doesnt work out well after the first month and it shows from past mmo games that have simillar results after the first month, it is illegal to continue forcing players to pay £35-£50 for a one month gaming expeirence that is far from great ?

 

Am I right ?

 So the jist of your argument is that AOC, Warhammer, Rift and STO failed not becuase they were bad games but becuase of a bad business model.

AOC, horrid PVP, limited content, bugs, horrid class balance, small instanced world, horrid crafting.

Warhammer, small instanced world not much PVE, no crafting, horrid bugs but decent PVP

Rift - a well polished wow clone but with 1/3 its size and scope then vanilla wow. seems to be carrying on ok though.

STO - well bugs, more bugs and bugs, and no klingon faction lies by cryptic to fanbois. tough IP to get right.

Seriously the payment models not busted, the games are, To be honest WoW was stable for me at launch just had huge wait times, it had a built in fanbase becuase of the lore and blizaards histroy and it was fun, world pvp then was awesome. since then its become a gear game but people still like it.

I think in order to make it, make sure you have lots for people to do with different backgrounds, the truth is I find most these games that are failing are one trick ponies you need to be able to do multuple things so that if you get bored pve you can try pvp or trading or fishing or roleplaying etc.

Originally posted by Kain_Dale

Originally posted by zeowyrm

Originally posted by Kain_Dale

Originally posted by zeowyrm

Originally posted by Kain_Dale

Originally posted by Mimzel

So give us a list of successful F2P MMORPGs?

 

Thank you.

 

Without spending a buck  . . .

Of course you have to spend money.  Game wouldn't be very successful if it wasn't making a profit now would it.  Now, give a proper answer.

Your missing the point.  If you want to be competetive pvp or pve or what not in free to play model.. you gotta bring your wallet out and make sure its THICK!

  If you just wanna have fun and relax, have patience and such.. thats different story.

No, you're missing the point.  To be successful, an MMO needs to be making a profit.  

1.Player 1- I'm gonna spend 20 bucks... WOW I'm powerful.. i think I can kill anyone!

2.Player 2- Went and pk Player 1 and pwn

3.Player 1- WTF!  Damn I need more stuff from cash shop to pwn Player 2.

Repeat from 1 to 3 everytime = Unlimit spending

Ridiclous!

Those f2p company profits off those "idiot rich people".

Subscription games = most fair MMORPG games for everyone.

Which has nothing to do with the question you didn't answer.  

Entertainment is in the wallet of the subscriber.

I prefer Pay to Play games. I feel like its a better bargain. you are paying for an entertainment service. Its no different than...

paying for cable tv,

netflix,

Hulu,

magazine subscriptions,

a 12 pack of beer after work every day.

pack of smokes every day.

Paying $16 + the price of popcorn at the movies to see some crappy movie with Nick Cage in it.

$3 coffee at starbucks

and dont forget actually paying for your internet access.

anyway, people spend money on what entertains them, its not always the fault of the entertainer that you dont like what's provided. My 2 cents here is that the OP should perhaps consider, stop playing PC games & expecting a free ride & go buy a Wii instead

When a studio demands a monthly fee for people to play their game, that is acceptable.

When a studio allows pre-orders and sells lifetime subs for MMOs that horribly flop, now that is hilarious.

Don't make any of this illegal please, it's too fun to watch bugs fly into a zapper.

Wait ... I think I got it! 

What you're saying is that if all those fail mmorpgs that launched with a P2P business model rather had started with F2P, then they wouldnt have failed. Either you are concluding that

a) People who play F2P games have no taste what so ever (which I might agree with)

b) that F2P has some magical sway over reality, and there is no spoon. In which case, stop eating those mushrooms please.

OP sounds like F2P propaganda to me.

Look, it's really very simple...

don't fall for the hype.

I don't see why this is such a hard concept for so many people. Not just with MMOs, other games, movies, etc. It tends to even by the products that end up being very lackluster that are promoted the hardest, to try to sucker people in to opening their wallets on opening day.

Don't pre-order or buy a game until it's been released, reviewed, and preferrably played by yourself through a trial. You'll save yourself a lot of money.

The ideas behind the OP are definitely high up in the "Most Asinine of 2011" category.  If you don't like P2P, don't play them.  I find the F2P model unacceptable, and therefore don't play those games.

There are no legal issues with the P2P or F2P models philosohpically (although one can never account for the practices of unscrupulous companies), but nice try.  You complain about having to sub to a game that might end prematurely?  Each and every MMO, F2P or P2P has a FINITE LIFESPAN.  Some games' times come sooner than others.  This is just like any other service that doesn't have a contract.  Aside from being charged for months the game is no longer live, there aren't ANY legal issues here.  They sound personal to me.

I'd like to know when folks will stand up against the tyranny of F2P/P2W models that encourage developers to PUNISH non-paying customers...models that ENCOURAGE an unlevel playing field...but I'm not so full of myself to write a thesis on it.

You know why?

Cause in the end I have the choice not to play what I don't want to play, and the more payment models we have, the more competition there is in the industry and that is good for us players (whether we choose to limit the models we pay with or not).

I skipped most, but how exactly is Pay to Play Illegal?  what laws where passed making it illegal?

First off a lot of F2Ps are horrible, to get anywhere you gotta spend buttloads of cash to get the items....while P2P everyone is on equal footing and is matter of skill not Real World Money that gets you anywhere....

Secondly some of those games that have been mention where horrible or just lacked, for instance i played Rift for a month #1 turn off was graphics..i had low of the low still barely got 15-30 FPS plus seem to WoWish to me..

(BTW i played/tried numerous F2Ps and they might last a Week)

Originally posted by Mimzel

Wait ... I think I got it! 

What you're saying is that if all those fail mmorpgs that launched with a P2P business model rather had started with F2P, then they wouldnt have failed. Either you are concluding that

a) People who play F2P games have no taste what so ever (which I might agree with)

b) that F2P has some magical sway over reality, and there is no spoon. In which case, stop eating those mushrooms please.

There is the third option that got DDO big again: the fact that most F2P games sucks badly so if there is one or a few they will earn more money by taking them from the bad.

That of course stops working as soon as more and more games becomes F2P and LOTRO have not increased in the same way DDO did.

@op: no.

The games would have "failed" (and there are very few games that have "failed") or better yet, "had issues" because of their own special little problems.

It has nothing to do with p2p.

Originally posted by Kooshdin

when the game gets ruined by negativity on forums and ingame players spoiling the game in chat.

Am I right ?

Well, no, you are not "right." You are presenting - repeatedly, as I read your multiple posts- your opinion regarding the conduct of other players which has a negative impact on your gaming experience and which, therefore, is right for you... but not necessarily for everyone else.

Just as your opinion is valid and you have every right to it, so, too, are the opinions of others. Negativity and good or bad press does not impact my gameplay in the least because I tune it out and enjoy games for what they are or do not enjoy them for what they are not to me personally.

It seems to me that the crux of your complaint here is community and not publishers because that it what you keep coming back to.

But to answer your basic question, no. It is not at all wrong or improper for a company to charge what is, in effect, a minimal monthly fee for the maintenance of the servers and ongoing maintenance and development of a live, persistent online world and the support staff when players expect immediate technical and service support for that imaginary world they are paying fifty cents a day - less than two cents per hour - to play in. Boiling those numbers down even further, on initial purchase, you are paying $25-45USD for the game (initial purchase prices ranging from $40USD to $60USD) and the remaining $15USD is paying for your first month's subscription. It's not free; it is included into the purchase price.

Cheers.

edited for spelling

Originally posted by Kooshdin

Originally posted by niceguy3978

This implies that anything with a subscription is illegal, tha's just odd.

What im trying to dsay is there is two mmo payment models that work for the mmo experience.

There is one payment  model that causes major problems for the mmo epxperience in eacgh game after the first month, this is the pay to play games !!!

We should not be forced by companies to continue paying upfront for a game as well as a sub if this model fails and there are two other payment models that work well for the game developersd and gamers alike

 

Thats my point and i think its illegal for companies insisting on me paying for a game up front with a sub option when most times im leaving after the first month or second.

 

i am one of the players that comes from the era where you could play mmos for years at a time and still get something out of them. I dont feel i should be forced to pay upfront for SWTOr when i knowe for afact compaliniers are going to ruin the game experience and the forums too after about 2 weeks of the game going live.

 

SWTOR is going to go down this road im pretty sure. Im not wanting it too im wanting the pay to play model to work but currently with the gmaer base of today, it causes problems for the mmo experiece in the mmo game

 

They didn't hold a "Wizard's Staff of Lightning" to your head. You chose to pay for it. Nothing illegal about that.