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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Smart UI - It died with EQ??!!

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67 posts found
  Bravnik

Novice Member

Joined: 5/18/04
Posts: 141

 
OP  6/20/11 11:04:34 AM#41

Yes AI not UI. Sorry it was Friday and I had that on my mind. A lot feel that I have some nalstalga going on here. Maybe a little but not really. I'm what you call a Hardcore gamer at heart. I played just about every MMO after EQ. WOW I played for hardcore until WOTLK where it crossed the line for me. I was in a Tier 1 guild killing all the biggest and baddest the servers had to offer. We cleared all WOTLK had to offer 2 weeks after getting enough to raid, both 10/25 man. Raiding was fun until WOTLK. I came back for Cata but after leveling 4 toons to 85 I quit as I simply didn't have anything else to do other than raid which I didn't want to commit too. WOTLK and CATA have turned the end game of WOW into a snob fest. I feel sorry for the guys that level up slowly as by time they hit 85 they will be snubbed in groups due to lack of gear. Then the issue of how do they get gear if they can't do herics. OMG - Bliz will probably fix that in the next expansion by just giving everyone Heroic gear when they hit max level.

As far as AI goes, yes EQ AI was a lot better for many of the reasons given in this thred. Yes a lot of you don't like the challenge EQ provided and that's fine as you are the majority. However, it's a shame that those of us that actually want a challenging game can't have one due to greed and casual players. Just look at WOW. It was a decent game until the Arena and TBC came out. TBC still gave people like me a challenge as SWP was hard as hell. However, it ruined WoW for what it was. Now everyone looked the same, armor was handed out like candy at Disney Land. You could no longer walk in Org and tell the hardcore player from the casul PVP Nub. Walking around in full T2 Drangonstalker gear days were done.

Back to EQ. The AI was simply better. I like mobs that use spells smartly. I like not knowing if I will live or die when the fight starts. I liked the fear of entering a new zone. I liked having a friends list so I could get ports instead of just clicking on some stone. I liked the days of the EC Tunnel Trading and F'ing HATE Auction Houses. I like to barder and trade and not just click BUY and have shit magically show up in my mailbox. Instances simply suck. I enjoyed the chase to get the bosses in EQ. I miss having people in a dungeon with me other than my group. I miss the fact that your reputation meant everything to you on a server and if you got a bad one you could not play. I miss the fact that only certain classes could solo and NOT every class. I liked the fact in EQ that a Warrior could not solo. I played a Shaman as my frist toon. It took me almost a year to level him up most of which was SOLO. I think I hit 85 with my frist toon in Cata in like 5 days. Pathetic.

I enjoy KSing and despise locked mobs. Sure there are times when it sucked to have someone steal your mobs but that was life and what made EQ what it was. Same goes for trains. Sure zoning into a zone only to be mashed by 30 mobs at the zone line was not fun, but it's part of the game. I miss mobs that run for help. I miss trains. I miss dungeons that are not instanced. I miss camps.

I would love to see a modern EQ done with the pre POP settings. Just update the graphics and be done with it. No fast travel, no auction houses, no instances, smart AI, realistic character traits etc.

  Frostbite05

Novice Member

Joined: 9/15/08
Posts: 1919

6/20/11 11:06:50 AM#42
Originally posted by Bravnik

Yes AI not UI. Sorry it was Friday and I had that on my mind. A lot feel that I have some nalstalga going on here. Maybe a little but not really. I'm what you call a Hardcore gamer at heart. I played just about every MMO after EQ. WOW I played for hardcore until WOTLK where it crossed the line for me. I was in a Tier 1 guild killing all the biggest and baddest the servers had to offer. We cleared all WOTLK had to offer 2 weeks after getting enough to raid, both 10/25 man. Raiding was fun until WOTLK. I came back for Cata but after leveling 4 toons to 85 I quit as I simply didn't have anything else to do other than raid which I didn't want to commit too. WOTLK and CATA have turned the end game of WOW into a snob fest. I feel sorry for the guys that level up slowly as by time they hit 85 they will be snubbed in groups due to lack of gear. Then the issue of how do they get gear if they can't do herics. OMG - Bliz will probably fix that in the next expansion by just giving everyone Heroic gear when they hit max level.

As far as AI goes, yes EQ AI was a lot better for many of the reasons given in this thred. Yes a lot of you don't like the challenge EQ provided and that's fine as you are the majority. However, it's a shame that those of us that actually want a challenging game can't have one due to greed and casual players. Just look at WOW. It was a decent game until the Arena and TBC came out. TBC still gave people like me a challenge as SWP was hard as hell. However, it ruined WoW for what it was. Now everyone looked the same, armor was handed out like candy at Disney Land. You could no longer walk in Org and tell the hardcore player from the casul PVP Nub. Walking around in full T2 Drangonstalker gear days were done.

Back to EQ. The AI was simply better. I like mobs that use spells smartly. I like not knowing if I will live or die when the fight starts. I liked the fear of entering a new zone. I liked having a friends list so I could get ports instead of just clicking on some stone. I liked the days of the EC Tunnel Trading and F'ing HATE Auction Houses. I like to barder and trade and not just click BUY and have shit magically show up in my mailbox. Instances simply suck. I enjoyed the chase to get the bosses in EQ. I miss having people in a dungeon with me other than my group. I miss the fact that your reputation meant everything to you on a server and if you got a bad one you could not play. I miss the fact that only certain classes could solo and NOT every class. I liked the fact in EQ that a Warrior could not solo. I played a Shaman as my frist toon. It took me almost a year to level him up most of which was SOLO. I think I hit 85 with my frist toon in Cata in like 5 days. Pathetic.

I enjoy KSing and despise locked mobs. Sure there are times when it sucked to have someone steal your mobs but that was life and what made EQ what it was. Same goes for trains. Sure zoning into a zone only to be mashed by 30 mobs at the zone line was not fun, but it's part of the game. I miss mobs that run for help. I miss trains. I miss dungeons that are not instanced. I miss camps.

I would love to see a modern EQ done with the pre POP settings. Just update the graphics and be done with it. No fast travel, no auction houses, no instances, smart AI, realistic character traits etc.

End game raiding in wow has been a snob fest since the first update that added more raids other than MC.

  Anolev

Novice Member

Joined: 7/15/10
Posts: 269

6/20/11 11:13:57 AM#43

The nostalgic part of me agrees 100%.  I remember how "hard core" EQ was in its day, especially with the severe death penalties.  You really cared back then about being careful and not dying.  I remember having to wait around for 4 hours once while another guild helped us get back into PoF after a total raid wipeout. 

The business side of me disagrees 100%.  What you're asking for is a hard core MMO, and that only appeals to a small subset of the masses.  Before the masses had options, they were forced to play hard core regardless of whether they liked it or not.  But now with so many options out there, most players seem to prefer the less harsh MMO's that are abundantly available.

What's interesting is going back to EQ, having played newer MMO's.  After a day or three, the nostalgia wears off, and I find myself uninstalling it (or DAoC for that matter, which for the record was my favorite MMO of all time).  Maybe its my tastes that have changed... <shrug>

  Bravnik

Novice Member

Joined: 5/18/04
Posts: 141

 
OP  6/20/11 11:51:06 AM#44
Originally posted by Frostbite05
Originally posted by Bravnik

Yes AI not UI. Sorry it was Friday and I had that on my mind. A lot feel that I have some nalstalga going on here. Maybe a little but not really. I'm what you call a Hardcore gamer at heart. I played just about every MMO after EQ. WOW I played for hardcore until WOTLK where it crossed the line for me. I was in a Tier 1 guild killing all the biggest and baddest the servers had to offer. We cleared all WOTLK had to offer 2 weeks after getting enough to raid, both 10/25 man. Raiding was fun until WOTLK. I came back for Cata but after leveling 4 toons to 85 I quit as I simply didn't have anything else to do other than raid which I didn't want to commit too. WOTLK and CATA have turned the end game of WOW into a snob fest. I feel sorry for the guys that level up slowly as by time they hit 85 they will be snubbed in groups due to lack of gear. Then the issue of how do they get gear if they can't do herics. OMG - Bliz will probably fix that in the next expansion by just giving everyone Heroic gear when they hit max level.

As far as AI goes, yes EQ AI was a lot better for many of the reasons given in this thred. Yes a lot of you don't like the challenge EQ provided and that's fine as you are the majority. However, it's a shame that those of us that actually want a challenging game can't have one due to greed and casual players. Just look at WOW. It was a decent game until the Arena and TBC came out. TBC still gave people like me a challenge as SWP was hard as hell. However, it ruined WoW for what it was. Now everyone looked the same, armor was handed out like candy at Disney Land. You could no longer walk in Org and tell the hardcore player from the casul PVP Nub. Walking around in full T2 Drangonstalker gear days were done.

Back to EQ. The AI was simply better. I like mobs that use spells smartly. I like not knowing if I will live or die when the fight starts. I liked the fear of entering a new zone. I liked having a friends list so I could get ports instead of just clicking on some stone. I liked the days of the EC Tunnel Trading and F'ing HATE Auction Houses. I like to barder and trade and not just click BUY and have shit magically show up in my mailbox. Instances simply suck. I enjoyed the chase to get the bosses in EQ. I miss having people in a dungeon with me other than my group. I miss the fact that your reputation meant everything to you on a server and if you got a bad one you could not play. I miss the fact that only certain classes could solo and NOT every class. I liked the fact in EQ that a Warrior could not solo. I played a Shaman as my frist toon. It took me almost a year to level him up most of which was SOLO. I think I hit 85 with my frist toon in Cata in like 5 days. Pathetic.

I enjoy KSing and despise locked mobs. Sure there are times when it sucked to have someone steal your mobs but that was life and what made EQ what it was. Same goes for trains. Sure zoning into a zone only to be mashed by 30 mobs at the zone line was not fun, but it's part of the game. I miss mobs that run for help. I miss trains. I miss dungeons that are not instanced. I miss camps.

I would love to see a modern EQ done with the pre POP settings. Just update the graphics and be done with it. No fast travel, no auction houses, no instances, smart AI, realistic character traits etc.

End game raiding in wow has been a snob fest since the first update that added more raids other than MC.

Yes but with the new Gear Scores it's even worse. Not just for raiding. Not to mention the achievements page which people want you to have all the latest and greatest achievements. They were meant for pride I suppose but now they are looked at for recruitment. Thus you could be a really good player but not get a second look because you are new to the game or took a lot of time off.

  fivoroth

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 11/10/06
Posts: 2600

6/20/11 12:01:38 PM#45

Mobs did not follow you if you zoned which is absolutely unrealistic. That is not what I call smart AI. You want trains? Zoning is an easy way out of this and should not be in the game if we want to avoid griefing. If you really wanna be hardcore, make it so that mobs never deaggro unless you or it dies! Mobs should follow you even if you zoned otherwise it is too "cookie cutter" sorry.

Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.

  spades07

Novice Member

Joined: 6/14/08
Posts: 843

6/20/11 1:02:23 PM#46

damn I was going to really rip into the OP if he meant UI. :D EQ has an awful UI.
AI wise er don't think it's any different except mobs chased you right across the zone in EQ. But there was stuff like bashing and summoning though.

Oh also roll on SoE fanfaire- find out more news on whether EQ: Next is going to exist or not.

  Creslin321

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/27/09
Posts: 5424

6/20/11 2:30:04 PM#47
Originally posted by JPTX

The nostalgic part of me agrees 100%.  I remember how "hard core" EQ was in its day, especially with the severe death penalties.  You really cared back then about being careful and not dying.  I remember having to wait around for 4 hours once while another guild helped us get back into PoF after a total raid wipeout. 

The business side of me disagrees 100%.  What you're asking for is a hard core MMO, and that only appeals to a small subset of the masses.  Before the masses had options, they were forced to play hard core regardless of whether they liked it or not.  But now with so many options out there, most players seem to prefer the less harsh MMO's that are abundantly available.

What's interesting is going back to EQ, having played newer MMO's.  After a day or three, the nostalgia wears off, and I find myself uninstalling it (or DAoC for that matter, which for the record was my favorite MMO of all time).  Maybe its my tastes that have changed...

It's funny though because things like "hardcore" are all relative.  I remember in the heyday of EQ, it was regarded as a "carebear" kind of MMO and compared to big MMO preceding it (UO), it was.  EQ didn't have open-PvP, and you couldn't lose any of your stuff if you died provided you made it to your corpse (which usually wasn't that difficult). 

But nowadays in the era of extremely mild death penalties and easily escapable MOBs...EQ is hardcore.  And I think this is what a lot of old-school gamers are afraid of.  Will later games shift even further from what "hardcore" is regarded as now so that we look back at WoW and say how "hardcore" that game was?  It's getting kind of ridiculous.

 

Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  waynejr2

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/12/11
Posts: 3705

RIP City of Heroes!

6/20/11 2:35:43 PM#48
Originally posted by skeaser

I miss mobs that ran for help. I hated EQ1 kobolds but damn do I miss them. Get the bugger down a bit and he starts to run, you'd better finish him or he's bringing the whole clan to kick your ass.

Was it hard? yes

Was it frustrating? sometimes

Was it rewarding and a little more realistic? To me, yes.

 More of this would be great.  But this is just nostalgia.

  waynejr2

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/12/11
Posts: 3705

RIP City of Heroes!

6/20/11 2:37:23 PM#49
Originally posted by MMO.Maverick

Lol, I was almost halfway the OP's post when I realised that he meant AI instead of UI, I was already wondering what that smart UI was about

 

Yeah, EQ was awesome. Damn, when someone started yelling 'train to zone!' those were definitely moments when people started paying attention and scutter away, those mobs were far more assertive and brutal  than the current ones.

MMO devs changed it in later MMO's for player convenience, I guess. Taking away all the rough edges of the gameplay on which players might accidentally hurt their toe on. A shame, rough edges in gameplay gives it its charm as well.

 The smart UI in the title pulled me into this thread. 

  Neanderthal

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/14/05
Posts: 1613

6/20/11 3:23:10 PM#50
Originally posted by Creslin321
 

It's funny though because things like "hardcore" are all relative.  I remember in the heyday of EQ, it was regarded as a "carebear" kind of MMO and compared to big MMO preceding it (UO), it was.  EQ didn't have open-PvP, and you couldn't lose any of your stuff if you died provided you made it to your corpse (which usually wasn't that difficult). 

But nowadays in the era of extremely mild death penalties and easily escapable MOBs...EQ is hardcore.  And I think this is what a lot of old-school gamers are afraid of.  Will later games shift even further from what "hardcore" is regarded as now so that we look back at WoW and say how "hardcore" that game was?  It's getting kind of ridiculous.

 

 There is a lot of truth to that.  Whatever evolution is happening in MMORPGs the one thing we can be sure of is that they are becoming easier.   If someone doesn't like the word "easier" then replace it with some other appropriate word but you get the general idea.

I've seen this change right here on these forums in the way people regard me.  When I first started posting here people called me a casual, easy-mode, etc. player.  Now people call me a hardcore masochist.  It's really strange to be standing on one side of the fence with the more casual crowd and then have the fence moved so that I end up on the side with the hardcore crowd.  I didn't move, the dividing line between hardcore and casual moved.

  SlyLoK

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/04/08
Posts: 930

6/20/11 3:42:47 PM#51

I entered this thread thinking there was some custom UI for EQ I didnt know about.

  wesjr

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/22/04
Posts: 352

6/20/11 3:52:22 PM#52
Originally posted by skeaser

I miss mobs that ran for help. I hated EQ1 kobolds but damn do I miss them. Get the bugger down a bit and he starts to run, you'd better finish him or he's bringing the whole clan to kick your ass.

Was it hard? yes

Was it frustrating? sometimes

Was it rewarding and a little more realistic? To me, yes.

 Thanks for giving me my daily laugh :)

  Mimzel

Novice Member

Joined: 7/08/07
Posts: 372

6/20/11 4:05:27 PM#53

I miss the brutality of old school mobs. The modern AI is as far as I'm concern the root cause of pure CC classes going out of style. Who needs them under today's condition? The chaotic and brutal style of the AI enviroment used to justify a pure CC class. I loved classes like that. Today you'll find CC mostly spread out among most or all of the classes. DPS is usually the answer to everything.

It's a duller game world. The biggest irony of it all: You solo your way to endgame in moden MMORPGs.

  Bravnik

Novice Member

Joined: 5/18/04
Posts: 141

 
OP  6/20/11 4:34:01 PM#54
Originally posted by Mimzel

I miss the brutality of old school mobs. The modern AI is as far as I'm concern the root cause of pure CC classes going out of style. Who needs them under today's condition? The chaotic and brutal style of the AI enviroment used to justify a pure CC class. I loved classes like that. Today you'll find CC mostly spread out among most or all of the classes. DPS is usually the answer to everything.

It's a duller game world. The biggest irony of it all: You solo your way to endgame in moden MMORPGs.

I could not agree more. In old EQ if the Shaman didn't stick his Slow it usually ended in a wipe on most boss mobs. Debuffs mattered in old school EQ. Not so much now. Hell most games now days limits the debuffs you can put on a mob. EQ2 limits silences, stuns etc. Bosses are immune to them.

  Xblade724

Novice Member

Joined: 5/07/03
Posts: 52

Darkness lies in wait only for those who refuse to walk amongst the unknown

6/20/11 6:23:51 PM#55

ABSOLUTELY!

 

There is no true challenge or risk/reward factor in games anymore. EQ, there were places that people were SCARED to even go near! Therefore the people that dared venture came back with promising rewards .. some that many have never even seen before. In most mmos now everyone has seen every possible item out there. It's pretty dumb. Then mobs teleport away, run back and ignore everyone else .. it's so fake.

No challenge at all -- the entire reason behind this challenge was for the massive satisfaction of having idols, accomplishing something that is rarely accomplished, and being unique! With smart AI comes smart strategies as well ... quad kiting ? Kiting in general? Perhaps charming a mob making it fight another ? WHERE is all the creativity in games?! And how about the super dramatic teleport spells with the big clash of thunder and purple stuff flying everywhere ... hell you are opening a rift in time and space, it should be crazy dramatic!

With brainless games like WoW, there is no true risk/reward factor. Everyone has the same items. At highest levels, EVERYONE has the SAME armor, SAME weapons .... And when you are lower level, you can't see any high levels fighting near you because it's too safe everywhere. Having the high lvls and low lvls in the same area .... it's fun to break in between to just watch an epic fight and see how a high lvl plays and you go "Wow! I can't wait to be like him in the future....". It makes you have a few heroes as well ... sometimes a higher level will come and buff you; maybe help you on a few kills and give you some advice.

 

Mixing high lvls with low lvls with a risk factor ("Dont go near the ice giants!!!") makes the game EXCITIGN! Thrilling!!! And makes some places taboo which creates excitement

---------------------------
Former EQ1 Rallos Zek (PvP)
Ascendant Chronei Immortal of Rallos Zek
(Now @ Prexus)

  Anolev

Novice Member

Joined: 7/15/10
Posts: 269

6/20/11 6:26:33 PM#56
Originally posted by Creslin321
Originally posted by JPTX

The nostalgic part of me agrees 100%.  I remember how "hard core" EQ was in its day, especially with the severe death penalties.  You really cared back then about being careful and not dying.  I remember having to wait around for 4 hours once while another guild helped us get back into PoF after a total raid wipeout. 

The business side of me disagrees 100%.  What you're asking for is a hard core MMO, and that only appeals to a small subset of the masses.  Before the masses had options, they were forced to play hard core regardless of whether they liked it or not.  But now with so many options out there, most players seem to prefer the less harsh MMO's that are abundantly available.

What's interesting is going back to EQ, having played newer MMO's.  After a day or three, the nostalgia wears off, and I find myself uninstalling it (or DAoC for that matter, which for the record was my favorite MMO of all time).  Maybe its my tastes that have changed...

It's funny though because things like "hardcore" are all relative.  I remember in the heyday of EQ, it was regarded as a "carebear" kind of MMO and compared to big MMO preceding it (UO), it was.  EQ didn't have open-PvP, and you couldn't lose any of your stuff if you died provided you made it to your corpse (which usually wasn't that difficult). 

But nowadays in the era of extremely mild death penalties and easily escapable MOBs...EQ is hardcore.  And I think this is what a lot of old-school gamers are afraid of.  Will later games shift even further from what "hardcore" is regarded as now so that we look back at WoW and say how "hardcore" that game was?  It's getting kind of ridiculous.

I absolutely agree with all of that.  :)

  Xblade724

Novice Member

Joined: 5/07/03
Posts: 52

Darkness lies in wait only for those who refuse to walk amongst the unknown

6/20/11 6:45:43 PM#57
Originally posted by JPTX
I remember in the heyday of EQ, it was regarded as a "carebear" kind of MMO and compared to big MMO preceding it (UO), it was.  EQ didn't have open-PvP, and you couldn't lose any of your stuff if you died provided you made it to your corpse (which usually wasn't that difficult). 

You are wrong. I played on Rallos Zek (PvP) before they made it carebear. For a good 8 years, it was not anything close to carebear. When you died from another player in WORLD pvp (you can kill anywhere at any place at any time within +4/-4 levels of you. You didn't know if they were higher or lower level; just "in range" to you [super genius]). When you died, you lost all your money on you and 1 item of their choice that is droppable unless it is in a backpack or a weapon. However, you could even reverse that -- if you were to blind someone before they die and have a monk or rogue disarm them, you could kill them while disarmed and you can loot their weapon. It was VERY hardcore. If you attacked someone in front of the guards, the guards wont help just EVERYONE like the cliche mmo, the faction system was superior to any other mmo . You can find ways to raise your faction with someone so the guards will defend you and not them. It's all about who you know, even NPCs.

---------------------------
Former EQ1 Rallos Zek (PvP)
Ascendant Chronei Immortal of Rallos Zek
(Now @ Prexus)

  Nerf09

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/04
Posts: 3008

6/20/11 8:33:40 PM#58
Originally posted by SlyLoK

I entered this thread thinking there was some custom UI for EQ I didnt know about.

Yeah the User Interface is really smart, I guess.

  Samkin772

Novice Member

Joined: 10/20/09
Posts: 104

6/20/11 8:57:48 PM#59
Originally posted by JPTX
Originally posted by Creslin321
Originally posted by JPTX

The nostalgic part of me agrees 100%.  I remember how "hard core" EQ was in its day, especially with the severe death penalties.  You really cared back then about being careful and not dying.  I remember having to wait around for 4 hours once while another guild helped us get back into PoF after a total raid wipeout. 

The business side of me disagrees 100%.  What you're asking for is a hard core MMO, and that only appeals to a small subset of the masses.  Before the masses had options, they were forced to play hard core regardless of whether they liked it or not.  But now with so many options out there, most players seem to prefer the less harsh MMO's that are abundantly available.

What's interesting is going back to EQ, having played newer MMO's.  After a day or three, the nostalgia wears off, and I find myself uninstalling it (or DAoC for that matter, which for the record was my favorite MMO of all time).  Maybe its my tastes that have changed...

It's funny though because things like "hardcore" are all relative.  I remember in the heyday of EQ, it was regarded as a "carebear" kind of MMO and compared to big MMO preceding it (UO), it was.  EQ didn't have open-PvP, and you couldn't lose any of your stuff if you died provided you made it to your corpse (which usually wasn't that difficult). 

But nowadays in the era of extremely mild death penalties and easily escapable MOBs...EQ is hardcore.  And I think this is what a lot of old-school gamers are afraid of.  Will later games shift even further from what "hardcore" is regarded as now so that we look back at WoW and say how "hardcore" that game was?  It's getting kind of ridiculous.

I absolutely agree with all of that.  :)

 Me too, couldn't have said it better myself....and ditto on the DAoC thing too.  I am actually still subbed, but I can't seem to get online to play but every once in a while.

@ Xblade - the above poster wasn't necessarily saying EQ was carebear, just that a lot of peeps (mostly hardcore UO players I'm sure), regarded it as such.  And they did, btw, and a lot of EQ players agreed with them......and we couldn't have cared less.  They had their fun, and we had ours.  Ofc, every game, then and now looked pretty carebear when held against UO......

  ROMVS

Novice Member

Joined: 6/19/11
Posts: 9

6/21/11 6:02:34 AM#60

I agree as well, more realistic mobs make for a more interesting gameplay.  I mean if I go into a town and kill someone in broad daylight, I expect an alarm to go off, the guards to come and then more and more higher level guards to come if you kill the low level ones.  Ergo don't kill people in towns unless you are a high level assasin that can hide, be undetectable or you the fastest runner with the highest magic protection.

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