The issue I have with todays MMO's are they are just too fake. They seem all cookie cutter to me. Lets take the original EQ for example. Lets even take a starting area in EQ for example - Everfrost.

Back when I was a noob in EQ I was amazed to watch the High Level guys pharm the Ice Giants in EQ. Those giants could smash me in seconds while I pharmed Mammoths out in the plain. Every now and then one of the Giants would get trained out of their caves as pharming them was a talent and every now and then the person doing it would lose control, try to run and pull them out into the plain. After the Giant killed them they would walk back and god help you if you got into their ago range. I even seen them pulled to the entrance of the cave to Halas and cause all kinds of mayhem.

Those days in MMO's are now long gone. Mobs now warp back to their spots or run right past people like they are blind to all the people around them. Hell half the time you can't even tag one going back as it is LOCKED. WTF. How about we put the SMART back into the mobs. It gave the game challenge and more of a real feel to it. Today games feel like....well....a game. EQ had more to it than that. Why can't they make a game like EQ but more modern? In todays MMO's you can run though most zones without a worry in the world. If you get ago it's OK cause you can just outrun them and they will stop chasing you soon ether way. In EQ they NEVER stopped chasing you and boss mobs would pull you back to them magically so there was no running away unless you zoned. You had to fight your way though or go along the zone edges to get around mobs.

I swear EQ had it right. Sure there were some sucky things like the long camps that were put in to slow down progression but UI wise (until SOE started screwing EQ with Instance, easy travel and such) EQ had it right. I miss the trains in dungeons. Hell I just miss being in a cave and having other people in there with me......Instancing is another area where it kills the feeling of the game but that is topic for another discussion.

I agree. I miss having to be careful when moving through zones and such. Coming from DAoC I always hated when people would get mobs to follow them to where all the bots were located. Which if you were doing two accounts on one comp, sometimes you'd come back to a dead bot. Happened to me many times. I really do miss those days of exploring also.

I think you mean AI.  Never played EQ but I've played FFXI and it was the same.  Mobs would chase you until you zoned out.  When I played WoW I thought it was really dumb how mobs would not chase you that far, and how easy it was to get away. 

I doubt the AI was much better than what we have today, though.  The mobs were just tougher and programmed to chase you down.  I do miss that feeling of danger, though. 

I agree with you. EQ was my first MMO and still the one I enjoyed playing the most for some of the reasons you described. Some of it nostalgia but I miss the old school risk vs reward, challenege, corpse runs, lack of hand-holding and grouping dynamics, etc.

Unfortunately, we are in the minority. EQ, even at it's peak, is what would now be considered a niche game. WoW proved there was a much larger market out there. I suspect most investors aren't interested in targeting our demographic.

Look at Vanguard even, it's pretty much the spiritual successor to EQ with better graphics and more functional UI. But not enough people wanted to play it. Even after all the fixes and recent 45 days playing time there's still very few people interested in the game, SOE least of all.

The sad fact is the market has changed and developers are targetting a different audience now. Someday we might get the game we're all hoping for (EQ with better graphics) but I'm not holding my breath.

Sorry for being a Debbie Downer but I've literally spent the last month scouring forums, websites, blogs and trying every AAA and even a lot of AA titles out there and the game we want just doesn't exist. Project 1999 is probably the closest thing and it has it's share of issues as well. As much I'd like to think graphics aren't important in the case of a 12-year old game I have a really hard time looking past them. I almost went back to EQ for the TLP servers or even Live but I just don't think it's the same game I remember anymore. The closest thing out there is Vanguard and it is really discouraging knowing it's not likely to ever get love from SOE again. I would swear their employees actually have an SOP issuing a gag-order on even speaking about Vanguard. I've tried to pry something, anything out of them and can't get a peep.

So, you want to bring back griefing in some bit of nostalgia?

That is all that would be accomplished by bringing this back into the game.

I could not agree more. I remember when MMOs would build on the features of their predecessors. Today, every new game tries to set themselves apart by what features they remove. No more death penalties! No more waiting for mobs to spawn! No more grind! No more travel!

I miss MMOs where getting from point A to point B was a challenge. It was very rewarding to come out of the other side of a dungeon and discover a new area of the game. 

The problem is, casual gamers complain about these things and, instead of working to improve the experience, these systems are simply removed from the game creating a more shallow experience. 

I miss mobs that ran for help. I hated EQ1 kobolds but damn do I miss them. Get the bugger down a bit and he starts to run, you'd better finish him or he's bringing the whole clan to kick your ass.

Was it hard? yes

Was it frustrating? sometimes

Was it rewarding and a little more realistic? To me, yes.

Originally posted by skeaser

I miss mobs that ran for help. I hated EQ1 kobolds but damn do I miss them. Get the bugger down a bit and he starts to run, you'd better finish him or he's bringing the whole clan to kick your ass.

Was it hard? yes

Was it frustrating? sometimes

Was it rewarding and a little more realistic? To me, yes.

yup, more realistic and accomplishment when you completed something

Everquest also featured monsters that showed the monsters they were wielding.  I remember giving torches to all of the guards which would make a very different atmosphere...  Or if you gave one of those impossibly slow weapons from the giants in kunark to a skeleton...  All of a sudden it would one-shot anyone who was even 5 levels above the skeleton.  Plus if you killed the monster you could loot said item. 

If you wanted to give rubicite armor to skeletons you could do so and if someone killed the skeleton they got the rubicite.

These days it doesnt even generate what the monster had until after you killed the thing.  In everquest you KNEW when the monster had the uber item -- because it hit HARDER... 

---

Actually the worst trains in EQ happened with the Z axis in places like blackburrow where you could have the entire zone come after you. 

As for MOB AI though -- in general people do NOT want smart monsters...  If as a warrior, any mage monster you came across kited you trying to draw you into range of more monsters to help kill you.  If when you invaded a dungeon, one of the 6 ogres at the entrance ran deeper into the complex to ring the alarm to bring the whole place down on you.  If smarter boss monsters RAN if they thought they were going to lose, etc.  It mainly makes the game massively harder and completely unsoloable.

Originally posted by centkin

It mainly makes the game massively harder and completely unsoloable.

This is what I want.

I also played classic EQ.

Sadly people now don't want a challenging world. They want to solo all the way to max level and have the best gear without too much hassle.

This is a lost battle, MMORPGs are long dead, all is left now are the simple MMOs. And they are becoming simpler every time so we better enjoy what we have now because the future is much worse. Hell, even original WOW looks hard now.

Originally posted by Misaligned

Look at Vanguard even, it's pretty much the spiritual successor to EQ with better graphics and more functional UI. But not enough people wanted to play it. Even after all the fixes and recent 45 days playing time there's still very few people interested in the game, SOE least of all.

 

Vanguard is a horrible example. The game was 50% broken and very incomplete on release. The game designers went belly up within the first three months or so post release and most of the things that would have made Vanguard cool got compromised out. I dont even know if the game is "fixed" today but once you get out of the gate in such a broken state and stay that way for months post release there is no going back. There is no way to fix that reputation. Once the initial subs are gone the game loses all momentum and with the crowded market of today it is near impossible to regain that unless you have Triple A quality..which vanguard did not have.

Vanguard could have been EQ's successor but the devs talked a bigger game than they could code or had the resources to code. I still contend they were trying to create a $50 or $60 Million game on a $20 or $30 Million budget.

Originally posted by Maelkor

Vanguard is a horrible example. The game was 50% broken and very incomplete on release. The game designers went belly up within the first three months or so post release and most of the things that would have made Vanguard cool got compromised out. I dont even know if the game is "fixed" today but once you get out of the gate in such a broken state and stay that way for months post release there is no going back. There is no way to fix that reputation. Once the initial subs are gone the game loses all momentum and with the crowded market of today it is near impossible to regain that unless you have Triple A quality..which vanguard did not have.

Vanguard could have been EQ's successor but the devs talked a bigger game than they could code or had the resources to code. I still contend they were trying to create a $50 or $60 Million game on a $20 or $30 Million budget.

You have some valid points. Most games never recover from a horrible launch. And, to SOE's credit, they came in and basically rescued it. Vanguard today is a fary cry from its horrendous release.

The only 2 games I've seen have a real resurgence are DDO and LOTRO. As much as I dislike F2P on principle, Turbine's hybrid model seems to be working.

Lol, I was almost halfway the OP's post when I realised that he meant AI instead of UI, I was already wondering what that smart UI was about

Yeah, EQ was awesome. Damn, when someone started yelling 'train to zone!' those were definitely moments when people started paying attention and scutter away, those mobs were far more assertive and brutal  than the current ones.

MMO devs changed it in later MMO's for player convenience, I guess. Taking away all the rough edges of the gameplay on which players might accidentally hurt their toe on. A shame, rough edges in gameplay gives it its charm as well.

AI- Artificial Intelligence

UI- User Interface

(=

Anyways, it is frustrating, in some modern MMO'S the AI is so low that a 13 year old noob can program a bot program to compete it.

However, i myself coming from the gaming industry, and i can defenetly tell you that programing an working & responding AI is super hard, in any means, and i refer to a SUPER "stupid" AI, not to mention the big ones.

AI is a complicated matter, espisially when we are talking about an online RT comunication.

most of the modern AI's stays simple those days JUST for the simple reason that the programers have no reason to overload their servers, which, after the internet revulotion that the world has passed in the past 10 years, are already loaded.

Whats so "smart" about a mob aggroing people in its path?

Just because the mob got pulled to somewhere and as its walking back to its original position it aggros any player in range does not make it smart.

Really?! Thats what you think is smart? Smart AI in MMOs must have really low standards then.

Originally posted by Xiaoki

Whats so "smart" about a mob aggroing people in its path?

Just because the mob got pulled to somewhere and as its walking back to its original position it aggros any player in range does not make it smart.

Really?! Thats what you think is smart? Smart AI in MMOs must have really low standards then.

 

 Smarter than the AI we have today.

Originally posted by Wolfenpride

Originally posted by Xiaoki

Whats so "smart" about a mob aggroing people in its path?

Just because the mob got pulled to somewhere and as its walking back to its original position it aggros any player in range does not make it smart.

Really?! Thats what you think is smart? Smart AI in MMOs must have really low standards then.

 

 Smarter than the AI we have today.

this! ^^

sorry but an enraged lion will maul anything in its path... its not just going to ignore all other players trying to kill him... just because his target got away. 

The answer: Smart AI does not necessarily mean Fun AI.

The situation described seems to be a clear example of AI which is irritating because it's smart(ish).

Since players pay for entertainment and not AI quality, we have "stupider" AI (which is, in reality, the smarter way to program it.)

It has nothing to do with smart AI. If anything, it takes more work to create a mob on a leash that resets properly and at the right time. I'm sure you've all played one game or another where a mob reset on you even though you hadn't taken it far from its spawn point. Having a mob chase you indefinitely and stay aggro (and vulnerable) to all bystanders on its eventual path back is much easier to do.

Changing this single thing about a game wouldn't improve it. EQ was created such that travel would be risky and difficult by design. It was designed to be lethally dangerous to let mobs get away in a dungeon, and hazardous to hang out on a train path without paying attention. An existing game that wasn't designed that way could not be improved just by making mobs always chase all the way to the zone line and kill people on their way back. It would just be an annoyance. You'd have to change everything else about the game to get that EQ feel.